This is not the first time nor do I think it will be the last that Conway, Arkansas detonates a poor helpless ammo can...

Geocaching Game Triggers Bomb Squad

Tuesday the Conway City Bomb Squad detonated a suspicious package on Tilk Road in Conway only to find out it was just a geocache box full of toys and because of that, the popular hobby is starting to raise some red flags for authorities.
Geocaching is a hide and seek treasure hunt for the 21st Century. You download cache coordinates onto your GPS and set out to find a box filled with items. Geocache boxes are often old ammunition cases because they can withstand any weather condition, but Conway officials are asking you to change the rules to stop false alarms.

Todd Cardin with the Conway Bomb Squad says this box is what triggered a bomb scare Tuesday. "A gentleman witnessed a lady leaning over a concrete rail at the South East corner of the airport and it looked suspicious what she was doing and he went over there when they left and he saw this ammo can," Cardin explains.

He says this is the third geocache box they've responded to and even though some are labeled they still have to follow protocol.

Cardin says, "When we get the call we treat it as a bomb until its proven and we don't know otherwise until we've disposed of the package."

The bomb squad uses its remote-controlled robotic vehicle to make initial contact and that means valuable time and tax payer dollars.

"So you're looking at probably six or eight fire department personal, two three four police men and than a squad from MEMS and it typically takes about an hour to handle a scene like this," Cardin adds.

There are currently more than 700 geocaches in the Conway area alone. Cardin says they don't want to ban the game they just want to keep it safe for everyone and ask that you use a clear container and label it "geocache."

"We need to know that as a bomb squad what's in that package and we won't mess with it. If it's a clear package that would be great," Cardin asks.

The last two geocache boxes belong to the same Conway man. He isn't being charged, but he is taking responsibility for notifying all geocache members to use plastic containers.

Geocaching has been banned in some parts of the U.S., but there are still more than 800,000 active caches worldwide.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story....904&catid=2

I think we should have a contest to see who can create a clear ammo box...All hail the lock-n-locks.

EMT

WHY use Ammo cans anyway? Our children can't open them never mind shut the correctly. There are plenty of good quality clip & lock boxes available.

Because they are the most reliable, long term container around?

The two most interesting tidbits from this incident:

1. Labeling a geocache with a sticker on the outside won't prevent it from being blown up. This one was labeled, after the hider had a previous "find" on another of his caches from the bomb squad.

2. A member of the emergency response team is a geocacher, and they logged a find, posting this image with the online log:



I found these facts interesting because cache labels and education/cooption of emergency personnel are often recommended in threads like this one. They don't matter.

Because some land managers require them.

And that bomb squad would likely have blown up a lock and lock just as readily......

The bits of this article that I found interesting were:
Perhaps hiding an ammo can at the airport wasn't such a good idea.

-and-

This comment makes me disbelieve this one:
Finally:


While I understand that the game isn't allowed by some parks areas, to my understanding, it hasn't been 'banned' anywhere. Further, I don't for a moment believe that it could be actually banned in any jurisdiction.

This post has been edited by sbell111: Jan 22 2009, 05:44 AM

sbell111, that's exactly what I was going to ask. Why was there a cache at an airport?

Why do they blow them up? Because those bomb squad guys like to do that. They blew it up because it looked suspicious? What do they do when they get a call of a suspicious car? BOOM, Buick all over the place.

Seriously, they do like blowing up stuff. They also need to justify the grant money they received from the feds to buy their bomb robot.

The cache is in an office / industrial park in the vicinity of the airport, which as you can imagine, isn't exactly LAX or Heathrow. Were a reviewer to deny this cache for being less than a mile from a regional airport, there'd surely have been a toasty forum thread.

One of my caches uses a clear container, but the label on the inside makes it opaque from the top. If it were placed so the side view was blocked by leaves or something, I wonder if they would blow that up as well?

Maybe we need a bumper sticker that says "Geocaching, providing bomb squad practice since 2001".

Situations like this suck. There is no black and white. There is always a gray area.

My opinion is that it's probably not a great idea to use an ammo box that close to an urban area that could be even remotely considered a terrorist target (an airport in this case).

Ammo boxes are awesome, but a clear container probably would not have been blown up.

That is a great idea. I think it would sell.

You hit the nail on the head about bomb squads loving to blow things up. At 19 years old I joined the military and became a fireman in the Air Force. By the time we finished the firefighter training course we'd all become "pyromaniacs" that couldn't wait to run into burning buildings. The moral of the story is if that happens to firemen in training you know the same more than likely holds true of police officers.

An ammo can at an airport? 'Nuff said. Should never have been published.

Edit - Just saw Keystone's post above. Ooops.

This post has been edited by TheAlabamaRambler: Jan 22 2009, 07:13 AM

Clear containers can be looked int oand thus be proven safe without opening them. They will manuver the canister so that if it is clear they can see inside, hence not having to blwo it up.

But the main reason this article makes me angry is that, if people used stealth instead of looking in the open then this may not happen. The fact the bomb squad had to be called only states the fact that people are hiding things A) where they should not b (close to airports) in the wrong containers in the wrong environ ment (ammo canisters in urban settings= big no no) and C) people were not using stealth!

Our sport is coming under fire from people due to the fact that stuff like this happens. We must strive to make sure we are not responsible for tax payers money!

If this guy is a cacher then why didn't he have then check the GC.com site and check the coordinates. He could also have his GPS with him and say there is a cache located right there. So if the ammo can is the wrong container then they could take the container knowing its a cache and contact its owner.




Stealth? What is it really? Just acting suspicious. . There is a small time frame that you don't look suspicious but if the can is located near a road it only takes a few seconds before that time frame is closed.

1. Caches in clear plastic containers also get esploded.

2. As Keystone pointed out, the cache wasn't actually at the airport.

3. Ammo cans can be used successfully in office/industrial parks.

4. While I am a big supporter of using stealth to retrieve a cache, sometimes the most stealthy of us gets spotted by a muggle.

The fact is, no geocacher did anything wrong in this instance. If people choose to take away the lessen that 'clear' containers might not get blown up, that's great. It is a mistake to assume that they won't be 'made safe', however.

This post has been edited by sbell111: Jan 22 2009, 08:17 AM

I call poppycock! As said....them boomheadz get th' itchy twitchyfinger when it comes to pumpin' up their budget allocations....and they're all only too eager to apply a li'l "justice" for their continued existence. And believe me when it comes down to it, no amount of labeling nor clear visibility of contents "from a safe distance" is gonna save it. Anybody wanta start a pool on how long before we see a post "Clear, Well-Marked Geocache Container Blown Up By Bomb Squad"?

~*

This was a puzzle cache.

"Yes, ma'am, we received your report about the box that's ticking. We'll send someone out just as soon as Officer Kelly solves all the puzzle caches within a two mile radius. Please be patient. He's stuck on a Sudoku right now."

Do to the cache being a puzzle cache there is nothing showing on the GC.com website at the location. The "spotted cacher" has been caching for awhile and was with another well known cacher both of whom I am sure were practicing stealth to the fullest . It is not like it was a noob cacher that was hell bent on a find.
My geobuddy flip floppers made a good point as well. This happened on the same day that the president was sworn in I know that security was on full alert.
Suspicious person...Suspicious package... Very bad timing=Boom.

What ever the reason being a first responder I understand the concern and feel that some form of cacher and copper alliance be brought forth before things get blown out of propotion ...(sorry couldn't resist).

Another thought I had...If the cops believe that it is a cache but are unsure then just republish it with a new listing and wait for the FTF hunters to open it for ya-This is said in jest I do not want anyone to get injured...like myself from flames or shrapnel

I have shed blood for this game.
I am a geocacher.

Keep on caching.
EMT

Personally I've always suspected this, but of course I have no proof (and it may not be something they'd want to admit even to themselves).

I wonder if the Bomb Squad guys have a tally on who has the most # of booms.

Other than mandating all urban caches be nano blinkers (and that would probably get the FBI called in to sweep for listening devices) I don't really see a good solution to this.

All of these people were on the payroll anyway. Were they going to punch out and go home early if there was no crisis?

Not necessarily. Bomb disposal personnel have special training. If they don't happen to be on duty that day they are called in, which means OT. Even if they are on duty, they are pulled away from other duties which
means someone may have to come in and cover for them. That also means OT.

Police unions in many instances have negotiated very generous OT compensation rules, which can make OT very expensive.

It wouldn't be difficult to mold explosive material in to the shape a toys cars or whatnot. A clear container is no guarantee that it's not a bomb.

The bomb squad in Conway is an arm of the fire department. The fire chief actually created a geocaching account and posted a clarification of what happened in our state forum:



The cache owner has already held a very successful meeting with local representatives of both the fire department and law enforcement officials. In fact a couple of other geocachers are supposed to meet up with both the fire department chief and the chief of police and take them geocaching! It was a very unfortunate incident but with everyone showing willingness to work with officials the outcome is better than anyone could have asked for.

Might as well get involved in this can of worms.. Even if the container is clear (a nice hardy pelican case or Walmart Outdoor Gear) It's still possible to conceal an explosive device in amongst the clutter of swag inside.

Gotta hate that gray area where there ARE people STUPID enough to do it anyways.



Unfortunately, caches are made to be hidden.. Otherwise, someone else would see it, and complain what an eye-sore it was, and demand it be removed anyways..



Especially when it's OUR money as well!

This goes right into someone else's discussion, of what you do when you're confronted for what you're doing, and suddenly become evasive, trying to protect the sport, and say "Oh, I'm just doing a survey for the (yada-yada) company.. Be honest! for cripes sake! tell the person You're looking for a geocache that someone else hid.. You meant no offense, and will gladly leave the area.

Yes, I know, now having said this, I know every bloody terrorist now has a new tool to evade capture, all they have to say is they're a geocacher... Again, I say there ARE People STUPID enough to try it anyways.

OK, looking at this from a public safety standpoint, I have to see their point. As a firefighter for 25 years, a medic for just as long, I have my degree in Criminology(I know, Why are there cops, so firefighters can have hero's), I have been involved in Emergency Management for the last 10 years, and if it looks like a bomb, smells like a bomb, and feels like a bomb, ya blow it up. It is easy to look at the list on GC.com and say, OK it is a cache, but what if it isn't? A camo container can't be seen through, so how do you REALLY know what is in it. We have to err on the side of caution. While I realize that a small container isn't going o pack much explosive, to a beginning bomber, that is a good way to start to see how explosives work. If we all followed the rules and used a CLEAR container, it would be less of an issue, but people use ammo cans, pvc pipe and other things that can be misconstrued by the public.
I responded to a house, the new owner found an ammo can in the back yard behind a shed under a milk crate. Possible cache right? WRONG, the ammo can contained hand gernades the previous owner brought home from Nam and never disposed of right.
You never really know what is in the container, it could be a home made bomb, poison, anything. Cambria county just had an incident where a drug dealer dropped his stash in the woods, the buyer paid for the cords, and off they went to pick up the prize(Sounds like caching) What if that dealer wanted to take out the competition? booby trap it and bye bye bad guy. Too many possibilities out there in this screwed up world. You never kn ow when ya might run into the next McVeigh or Kazinski. Just my thoughts from a public safety view.

If you are really serious about working with your local authorities in smalltownsville, then I'd suggest this or some spin-off thereof. Suggest that the police/fire chief can keep a book of all the local caches that have the slightest potential of causing alarm to the public. Get a large 3-ring binder full of sheet protectors to hold the cache listings and a PHOTOGRAPH of all of these area caches. If they are multis or puzzles, then the actual coords should be written on the cache listing. A master index at the front with the area map showing all the caches would speed locating the right sheet (put them in GC# order). Get your local cache hiders in on the action and suggest that when they place a hide, they take a picture of the cache container and drop off a copy of the listing and picture with whoever it is that is willing to keep such a book. Naturally, not every cache will make it to such a book and it would be better if micro and everything way out in the woods isn't in such a book anyway. Just things around the urban setting that might raise suspicions (but are legal placements).

Now, if they get that suspicious package call. The chief is able to pull out this book and have the coords and a picture of the cache. They can quickly verify that the "package" is actually the cache that was placed and not something else. They log this with dispatch as a "good intent call" and everyone goes home happy.

Just depends how much work you want to put into your local program and how much cooperation the local authorities will give you. It sounds like the chief in this case might be a great person to test such a program with.

Another option, of course, is to keep the listings and pictures electronically instead of in a physical book. PDF & image files in a palm pilot or on the dispatch computer might be much easier to access during an emergency. The possibilities are there, you just have to find a workable solution that the department and local cachers will be willing to employ.

Yeah... one workable solution is actually having permission, so if the question ever arises the landowner can say "That's a geocache, it's okay".

You're raised this point before, and I don't disagree with you- but historically there have been caches exploded that were placed with permission. If I recall (could be wrong) the landowner was on the scene telling the bomb sqaud it was a cache.

LOL, I asked myself when I posted that how long it would be before someone said that! No, of course it won't prevent ALL incidents, nothing will, but it goes a long way towards that goal!

We see the stats and news when a cache is destroyed, what we don't see is any mention of a destruction avoided because the landowner said "That's a geocache, it's okay".

Without any facts to back it up I can only suppose that caches with permission get blown up far less than those without.

This post has been edited by TheAlabamaRambler: Jan 26 2009, 07:18 AM

That I can agree with. It's a pretty good "first layer" of protection. Not a bullet-proof solution.

Well I wouldn't call myself a noob, but what rule do you speak of? I am interested to see the no ammo can rule

I never said NO ammo cans, but the guidelines state to LABEL the cache, GC #, Cords, Name, etc...I have seen this maybe 10 times in 300+ finds, and a clear container, as one of SEVERAL types suggested along with ammo cans make IDing the contents much easier.

The day that the only caches I can find or hide are clear containers is the day I stop caching. I hate to even think of how boring that would be!

If I found an ammo can on my own property the last thing I would think is "this must be a geocache".

If I found an ammo can in the woods covered in tree bark, next to a fallen log or in a stump the last thing I would think is "this must be some grenades left over from Nam."

Edited for grumpyness.

This post has been edited by Castle Mischief: Jan 26 2009, 02:04 PM

Obviously grumpiness is fogging your mind, the point is everyone wants the police and fire department to think oh, ammo can = cache, and it is NEVER going to happen. It is found, contents can not be determined, it is going to go BOOM,, plain and simple, and it will probably never change.

Definitely not a hard and fast "rule," but the following section of the Guidelines was beefed up after a number of bomb squad / law enforcement incidents in the 2006-2007 timeframe. It's more of a "think before you hide" admonition:

(Emphasis added)

We all knew this already because we all check the box that says we read the guidelines, right?

I agree with that statement. I read your previous one:



...to be an expression in your believe that most cachers would automatically think that an ammo box found at the back of newly purcahsed property, in the back yard, behind a shed, and under a milk crate is by default a geocache. I don't think that, under those conditions, most folk would come that conclusion.

Maybe I read too much into your post. The edit for grumpyness to remove my own rantings that went a little overboard.

No, the point is you don't want to pound the first responders to relax over an ammo cam and have them look it up on GC, have one near by and take a lax stance, because they have become complacent. That's all, not the property owners, but kids who cache and play in the area could fall victim.

Stupid Arkies...

Live at 11:00 on GNN!
Terrorism has taken a new direction today, as hundreds of piles of stick, in forests miles from anywhere, are being targeted.
Left Wing Radical Bubba "Nine Fingers" Smith declared in a proclamation to GNN reporters, "We've decided to detonate devices in natural areas, away from civilization, to confuse the general public. No more will we target areas of dense population, wreaking potential havoc on millions. Instead, we're going after these kooky folks called geocachers, blowing them up one at a time, using high grade explosives in ammo cans and Lock & Locks. That'll show 'em!"

Maybe Chicken Little was right...

And yet some are doing just that: Bomb squad reaches agreement with geocachers

I have read the story, it is what started this thread. Did you read it? Cachers have agreed to clear containers, and it it is not clear, and even if it is in the area of a known cache, I bet ya it still goes boom.
Nuff said, 'm outta here.

Ah crud. I tripped over my own recollection of the article. You're right of course. My bad.

I wonder if the Atlanta Olympics bomber had some pre-geocaching mojo in his genes?
His backpack device incorporated a clear container...

What the heck is a whatnot??