It's happened again

[4wheelin_fool]

"On the box, it said: caution, poisonous and hazardous, use with care," said Lt. Andy Klotz.

 

Police saw the warnings, and immediately closed the road and called the state bomb squad

 

...

Edited March 18, 2008 by 4wheelin_fool

[+sbell111]

An IED could very well be hidden in or on a guardrail... they may not do it that way in Iraq but it doesn't take any imagination at all to see one being placed on a guardrail anywhere, especially since one of the usual objectives of IEDs is to spew shrapnel in order to cause the most widespread injury.

 

An IED could possibly be contained in a decon container. Anything homemade that blows up is an IED... even a molotov cocktail is considered an IED. ...

How many IEDs are placed in Ohio each year? How many geocaches? Since the IED number approaches zero, and teh geocache number likely numbers in the thousands, there is a good chance that the bomb squads will have more opportunities to train with geocaches than they will in disarming IEDs.

[+ThePetersTrio]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache hiders to use a little sense and hide caches where searchers are not likely to be observed, and label them clearly as geocaches.

Best advice so far.

Except that a good percentage of caches are hidden in more urban locations. Similarly, a good percentage of cachers enjoy finding these caches. Therefore, we need 'solutions' that do not put an end to a large percentage of caches and caching. Of course, that is only if one believes that any 'solution' is needed. Personally, I'm not sure if it has been shown that there is a problem that needs to be solved.

 

No one is saying do away with all urban caches. But cache hiders using common sense and at the very least labeling their caches isn't all that difficult now is it?

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

 

You did hear something on the news last week about some guy with ricin in small containers out in Las Vegas.

You hear about folks dying or wounded almost daily by IEDs and roadside bombs 'over there' and you expect that soon they'll be here.

 

Comparing "over there" to here isn't a reasonable comparison.

 

We're burying Taylor McDavid tomorrow, a hometown guy, one of five killed after they got out of their Humvee for a foot patrol last week and an IED was remotely detonated.

 

Wasn't in a guardrail (IEDs never are), it was buried in the road bed.

 

It hadn't been there for over a year, with the location published on the internet.

 

It wasn't in a decon container, that's too small for the work of an IED.

 

It hadn't been visited 40+ times, opened, closed, replaced, 40+ times.

 

No comparison.

 

This is just a case of an overly suspicious citizen and an uninformed police dept.

 

Now, had it been a package buried in the road last night, the dirt or pavement still disturbed, in the traffic flow of the local military units or near a common gathering place of local officials, or next to where the President would be visiting in the next day or so, that would be a different matter. But, that's not what this was.

 

This all amounts to much ado about nothing.

You didn't answer the question. Given only what my mythical cop knew would you open the package?

[+sbell111]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache hiders to use a little sense and hide caches where searchers are not likely to be observed, and label them clearly as geocaches.

Best advice so far.

Except that a good percentage of caches are hidden in more urban locations. Similarly, a good percentage of cachers enjoy finding these caches. Therefore, we need 'solutions' that do not put an end to a large percentage of caches and caching. Of course, that is only if one believes that any 'solution' is needed. Personally, I'm not sure if it has been shown that there is a problem that needs to be solved.

No one is saying do away with all urban caches. But cache hiders using common sense and at the very least labeling their caches isn't all that difficult now is it?

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

That isn't what you just agreed with.

 

The fact is, I frequently advise painting ammo cans and I fully support removing the label from a decon container.

 

What I disagree with is the cavalier attitude that some cache finders have about the issue. If the muggle didn't spot the cache finder replacing the cache, this thread would not exist. Therefore, as cache finders, we should show some care to protect the game piece (Someone once even included that little bit in the Creed).

Edited March 18, 2008 by sbell111

[+larryc43230]

Around here, anyway, one of the prime goals of urban caches seems to be to maximize the stealth needed to find them. They're placed at or near busy street corners, or on benches just outside the busiest coffee houses in the city. Finding the cache isn't usually the challenge; finding it and signing the log without being seen and questioned about what you're doing is the challenge. I've learned to dislike these "maximum stealth" caches; almost all of them wind up on my "Ignore List" as soon as they're published.

 

--Larry

[+sbell111]

Around here, anyway, one of the prime goals of urban caches seems to be to maximize the stealth needed to find them. They're placed at or near busy street corners, or on benches just outside the busiest coffee houses in the city. Finding the cache isn't usually the challenge; finding it and signing the log without being seen and questioned about what you're doing is the challenge. I've learned to dislike these "maximum stealth" caches; almost all of them wind up on my "Ignore List" as soon as they're published.

 

--Larry

As well they should.

 

If a person doesn't enjoy caches that require stealth, they should avoid them. Ignoring that requirement only leads to muggled caches, or threads like this one.

[+ThePetersTrio]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache hiders to use a little sense and hide caches where searchers are not likely to be observed, and label them clearly as geocaches.

Best advice so far.

Except that a good percentage of caches are hidden in more urban locations. Similarly, a good percentage of cachers enjoy finding these caches. Therefore, we need 'solutions' that do not put an end to a large percentage of caches and caching. Of course, that is only if one believes that any 'solution' is needed. Personally, I'm not sure if it has been shown that there is a problem that needs to be solved.

No one is saying do away with all urban caches. But cache hiders using common sense and at the very least labeling their caches isn't all that difficult now is it?

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

That isn't what you just agreed with.

 

The fact is, I frequently advise painting ammo cans and I fully support removing the label from a decon container.

 

What I disagree with is the cavalier attitude that some cache finders have about the issue. If the muggle didn't spot the cache finder replacing the cache, this thread would not exist. Therefore, as cache finders, we should show some care to protect the game piece (Someone once even included that little bit in the Creed).

 

No - what I "agreed with" is trying to avoid placing caches in areas with high muggle traffic. A bench hide in a busy park can be cached with low profile in more inclement weather or during the middle of the day on a weekday vs. a weekend. A hide in a busy Starbucks parking lot - anytime during daylight hours - not quite so easy to avoid being spotted. It's just common sense - as I've already said.

 

Painting cans and removing labels is also not what I "agreed with". I agreed with labeling caches as such.

 

I'm not sure why you wish to play semantics with me here. It's not necessary as I've stated my support for what Briansnat posted. If you have some problem with my support of his post then I can't help you.

 

Sorry.

Edited March 18, 2008 by ThePetersTrio

[+NikkiPoooo]

How many IEDs are placed in Ohio each year? How many geocaches? Since the IED number approaches zero, and teh geocache number likely numbers in the thousands, there is a good chance that the bomb squads will have more opportunities to train with geocaches than they will in disarming IEDs.

 

How many planes were hijacked and flown into highrise buildings during peacetime before 9-11? How many since then? Does the fact that it just happened once mean that we shouldn't pay more attention to airport security and planes in areas they didn't belong in?

 

How many high school students planned and carried out massive attacks on their schools before Columbine? How many attacks since have been much less deadly due to increased awareness and preparedness?

 

How many times had space shuttles blown up upon reentry before Columbia?

 

Do we need to wait until something terrible happens and people die to be cautious about a very possible threat? When we do wait there is enormous backlash against the agencies who waited because they should have known better. Law enforcement officers have every reason to approach any unknown situation with the utmost care these days... just because no militant nutjob has planted an IED in a guardrail yet doesn't mean that the next unknown package in a guardrail isn't going to blow up.

[+sbell111]

How many IEDs are placed in Ohio each year? How many geocaches? Since the IED number approaches zero, and teh geocache number likely numbers in the thousands, there is a good chance that the bomb squads will have more opportunities to train with geocaches than they will in disarming IEDs.

 

How many planes were hijacked and flown into highrise buildings during peacetime before 9-11? How many since then? Does the fact that it just happened once mean that we shouldn't pay more attention to airport security and planes in areas they didn't belong in?

 

How many high school students planned and carried out massive attacks on their schools before Columbine? How many attacks since have been much less deadly due to increased awareness and preparedness?

 

How many times had space shuttles blown up upon reentry before Columbia?

 

Do we need to wait until something terrible happens and people die to be cautious about a very possible threat? When we do wait there is enormous backlash against the agencies who waited because they should have known better. Law enforcement officers have every reason to approach any unknown situation with the utmost care these days... just because no militant nutjob has planted an IED in a guardrail yet doesn't mean that the next unknown package in a guardrail isn't going to blow up.

I still fly. I still go into high rise buildings. I will still expect my children to go to school. I will still fly into space. OK, maybe not the last one, but I would if they would let me.

 

It sounds to me like you have a problem with bombs being placed in guardrails, not geocaches.

 

Lets outlaw bombs.

[ktroxell72]

I am a little torn on this one. I am a geocacher and I work in law enforcement. I have long worried about the possible implications of leaving ammo boxes and other items hidden in parks etc... The post 9-11 era has changed emergency personnel's response to suspicious packages. Back in the day, we kicked boxes that looked suspicious to see what was in them. Today there are canines, robots and bomb squads. Sometimes overreaction is the best reaction. The fact that this item had "caution, poisonous and hazardous" written on it makes me question the hiders intelligence. In this case, charges may be necessary and by the sounds of this taped interview, they appear imminent.

 

http://www.irontontribune.com/articles/200...ews/local06.txt

Edited March 18, 2008 by whereissit

[+sbell111]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache hiders to use a little sense and hide caches where searchers are not likely to be observed, and label them clearly as geocaches.

Best advice so far.

Except that a good percentage of caches are hidden in more urban locations. Similarly, a good percentage of cachers enjoy finding these caches. Therefore, we need 'solutions' that do not put an end to a large percentage of caches and caching. Of course, that is only if one believes that any 'solution' is needed. Personally, I'm not sure if it has been shown that there is a problem that needs to be solved.

No one is saying do away with all urban caches. But cache hiders using common sense and at the very least labeling their caches isn't all that difficult now is it?

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

That isn't what you just agreed with.

 

The fact is, I frequently advise painting ammo cans and I fully support removing the label from a decon container.

 

What I disagree with is the cavalier attitude that some cache finders have about the issue. If the muggle didn't spot the cache finder replacing the cache, this thread would not exist. Therefore, as cache finders, we should show some care to protect the game piece (Someone once even included that little bit in the Creed).

No - what I "agreed with" is trying to avoid placing caches in areas with high muggle traffic. A bench hide in a busy park can be cached with low profile in more inclement weather or during the middle of the day on a weekday vs. a weekend. A hide in a busy Starbucks parking lot - anytime during daylight hours - not quite so easy to avoid being spotted. It's just common sense - as I've already said.

All caches, even the one that prompted this thread, could be searched for at a time that limits muggle involvement. I am actually making the same point as you just did, with the exception of your assumption that people that disagree with you don't use common sense or 'have a hard time understanding'.

Painting cans and removing labels is also not what I "agreed with". I agreed with labeling caches as such.

I never said that you took that position. I merely explained my position regarding labels.

 

It should also be noted that the bomb squad will utilize the same procedure whether or not the container is marked 'geocache', otherwise, terrorists would label all of their devices 'Not a Bomb'.

I'm not sure why you wish to play semantics with me here. It's not necessary as I've stated my support for what Briansnat posted. If you have some problem with my support of his post then I can't help you.

 

Sorry.

I have no problem with your support of anything. That certainly doesn't mean that it isn't appropriate to discuss these views, however. If we do not wish for others to discuss our views, it would probably be best if we didn't post them in an active forum.

[+PhxChem]

On the box, it said: caution, poisonous and hazardous, use with care

 

Since when does poisonous = bomb? Heck, DRANO is poisonous and hazardous....use with caution...says so right on the label.

 

Does that mean if I find a bottle of DRANO I should call the bomb squad?

 

I also didn't want to bring this up but....um Where, OH? Hello, exactly!

 

EDIT: And why do we assume that a bomb-maker would make bombs that have warning labels that say "This is dangerous...it's A BOMB!! Not to be psycho, but like in geocahing....wouldn't you want to disguise it?

Edited March 18, 2008 by PhxChem

[+ThePetersTrio]

I have no problem with your support of anything. That certainly doesn't mean that it isn't appropriate to discuss these views, however. If we do not wish for others to discuss our views, it would probably be best if we didn't post them in an active forum.

 

Discussing our views is a-ok by me. But when someone makes incorrect assumptions about something I've posted then I'm going to clarify. You seem to have some problem with my posts and I'm not sure what that's about but I have a feeling it really doesn't have anything to do with me.

 

So I'm happy to let this drop here. Again, I have no wish to play semantics with you.

[+theweirdozone]

Hello everyone. I am adding this thread because I was one of the two people who found the cache on the day in question and is now possibly subject to charges for inciting a panic. I just want to clear the air on a few things. First, many of the statements in the news articles are just not true. One article says that we dropped the container and ran to the car. In fact, I couldn't fit it back on the guardrail, and then I realized that I was trying to put it in the wrong area. As we cached, we did not see anyone watching us. We did not run to the car. As far as a beeping sound in one of our pockets, one of our cell phones was ringing which we answered.

 

The cache in question is located in Bridgeport, OH, which is just across the river from Wheeling, WV. The cache number is GC195FQ. As of right now, I believe that the charges may be dropped as the police dept. learns more about geocaching. There has been an enormous response from the local geocaching community, which we appreciate. In my opinion, the police dept. took the appropriate action in the situation. However, I feel it was just a misunderstanding and no one needs to be charged. The outside of the container was not labeled as a geocache, which is one of the main problems. Obviously, I have seen the container and I know what it looks like in person. We placed the purple kaleidoscope in the container.

 

I think that part of the problem is that the Wheeling area is almost saturated with geocaches. People are running out of places to have quality hides. As such, cachers are resorting to locations that have more traffic and are more commonplace. As the sport increases, I see this as an evergrowing problem. The more caches we bring into the city, the higher the chance that this will happen again. The best solution is to try and keep the police departments aware of caches in their area, and above all, to label the container so bystandards will be able to identify it as harmless prop. I hope this helps all of you, and feel free to ask questions. Thanks for your support.

[+theweirdozone]

Hello everyone. I am adding this thread because I was one of the two people who found the cache on the day in question and is now possibly subject to charges for inciting a panic. I just want to clear the air on a few things. First, many of the statements in the news articles are just not true. One article says that we dropped the container and ran to the car. In fact, I couldn't fit it back on the guardrail, and then I realized that I was trying to put it in the wrong area. As we cached, we did not see anyone watching us. We did not run to the car. As far as a beeping sound in one of our pockets, one of our cell phones was ringing which we answered.

 

The cache in question is located in Bridgeport, OH, which is just across the river from Wheeling, WV. The cache number is GC195FQ. As of right now, I believe that the charges may be dropped as the police dept. learns more about geocaching. There has been an enormous response from the local geocaching community, which we appreciate. In my opinion, the police dept. took the appropriate action in the situation. However, I feel it was just a misunderstanding and no one needs to be charged. The outside of the container was not labeled as a geocache, which is one of the main problems. Obviously, I have seen the container and I know what it looks like in person. We placed the purple kaleidoscope in the container.

 

I think that part of the problem is that the Wheeling area is almost saturated with geocaches. People are running out of places to have quality hides. As such, cachers are resorting to locations that have more traffic and are more commonplace. As the sport increases, I see this as an evergrowing problem. The more caches we bring into the city, the higher the chance that this will happen again. The best solution is to try and keep the police departments aware of caches in their area, and above all, to label the container so bystandards will be able to identify it as harmless prop. I hope this helps all of you, and feel free to ask questions. Thanks for your support.

[+theweirdozone]

Duplicate post, sorry.

Edited March 18, 2008 by theweirdozone

[+ThePetersTrio]

There has been an enormous response from the local geocaching community, which we appreciate.

 

Thanks for posting about your experience. I'm glad to hear you are getting support from the geocaching community.

 

You make excellent points in your post. I hope this experience won't result in charges being filed or somehow diminish your enjoyment of the sport.

 

I can't imagine what this experience must have been like for you. Please keep us posted on the situation.

 

[+NikkiPoooo]

 

It sounds to me like you have a problem with bombs being placed in guardrails, not geocaches.

 

Lets outlaw bombs.

 

I'm not sure where you got that from... I don't think I even implied that I had a problem with anyone placing caches anywhere.

 

Let's recap our correspondance in this thread, shall we?

 

*In response to someone questioning using containers that are marked as containing ammuntition or hazardous materials you said that no human would assume that a box that says it has ammunition in it might have ammunition in it.

*I replied that this human might have assumed just that had she wandered upon a such marked container in the woods before she knew that these containers were used for a game

*You said that since surplus containers are everywhere and they always have been you'd never guess that a container might contain what it says it contains

*I replied that I've been taught to remove or cover markings on surplus items to avoid confusion. I also postulated that this is a good policy because while some people may be familiar with surplus items with markings on them, others may not and might become alarmed by them

*I replied to a poster who'd posted some incorrect information about IEDs (improvised explosive devices) in an effort to prove that the officer's caution was unwarranted

*You replied to that with a somewhat incoherant rant about the fact that IEDs are not commonly placed in OH and that you think bomb squads should train using geocaches?

*I asked you why people need to die before a very real possibility is cautioned against.

*You drew from the above conversation that I'm against guardrail caches

 

Am I wrong in being confused by this conclusion?

Edited March 18, 2008 by NikkiPoooo

[+gof1]

I have only made it through about two thirds of this thread but haven't seen something. It seems to me that Law Enforcement needs to react to a situation with all prudence. When something suspicious happens they need to assume the worst and work down from there. That doesn't mean that they must charge someone. Just because the police get called out doesn't mean a crime was committed. It is way to common for law enforcement to want to make someone pay for the inconvenience of having to do their job.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I know how hard, dangerous, and thankless a job as a police officer is. The average cop got into that line of work because he wanted to make a difference in the world. Its just that there has been a shift in attitude from the "Cool, it turned out to be nothing." attitude to the "Someone is responsible for wasting my time and they will pay for it!" attitude. I don't understand why.

[+Mule Ears]

The problem might have been avoided had the cache owner taken the time to remove or cover the decon label that says CAUTION POISONOUS AND CAUSTIC HAZARD, or had used a less-ominous looking container. The cop's likely thinking was, "This is probably harmless trash, but what if it's not? What if I open it and some chemical gets out? Then I'm the idiot who opened a container that was labeled POISONOUS AND CAUSTIC HAZARD and got on the evening news for spilling POISONOUS AND CAUSTIC chemicals. Better play it safe and call it in."

 

The fact that the bomb squad was called does not mean that anyone jumped to the conclusion that the container was a bomb. In a small community, the bomb squad (from the next town over) might also handle some hazardous materials calls--much of the equipment and training overlaps, and some hazardous materials are hazardous precisely because they can explode. Like, you know, bombs.

 

The response was excessive only with benefit of perfect hindsight. Decon containers are a poor choice for caches in populated areas where accidental discovery of the cache, or of cachers retrieving the cache, is likely.

 

Objections to the effect that encouraging people to use common sense in cache placements to reduce the likelihood of problems would be the end of all caches everywhere are duly noted.

[+gof1]

Wow, Deja Vu all over again.

Edited March 18, 2008 by gof1

[+Mule Ears]

Doggone double-post!

Edited March 18, 2008 by Mule Ears

[+gof1]

Doggone double-post!

 

The dogs not gone, he's right here at my feet.

[+Renegade Knight]

I am a little torn on this one. I am a geocacher and I work in law enforcement. I have long worried about the possible implications of leaving ammo boxes and other items hidden in parks etc... The post 9-11 era has changed emergency personnel's response to suspicious packages. Back in the day, we kicked boxes that looked suspicious to see what was in them. Today there are canines, robots and bomb squads. Sometimes overreaction is the best reaction. The fact that this item had "caution, poisonous and hazardous" written on it makes me question the hiders intelligence. In this case, charges may be necessary and by the sounds of this taped interview, they appear imminent.

 

http://www.irontontribune.com/articles/200...ews/local06.txt

What changed pre and post 9-11 is the politics. The profession should have always been doing the right thing and making hard decisions based on little information. Charges are not needed nor should they be brought. They serve no higher purpose other than to criminalize a benign activity. Personally I'd rather just ban bombs and the like and have it stick so we can all get on with life. But given I can't, I'd just asoon not be fined as if I as a citizen am causing a problem when the real problem all stems from the bomb that spawned the squad that gets called on various things.

 

Somewhere in these forums is a thread on the bomb squad being called and blowing up a traffic counter. While I think you would agree it's ludicrous to prosecute the street department for placing a gizmo that can be confused for a bomb in a high traffic area given it's their job there really isn't much difference between that and a cache and all the other perfectly innocent items that are reported because well...we do live in the world we live in. That's the price of having a way to report things and having a squad to respond. It's like everything looking like a nail when all you have is a hammer. Why would you ban things that “look like nails” just because you chose to have a hammer?

Edited March 18, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+paulandstacey]

In atlantic canada, there have been no incidents of this nature to my knowledge, although I do know of quite a few experiences of people being questioned by police while caching.

 

This story reminds me of an experience that had when caching a few months back. When I went to the cache location, I looked around for a bit and lo and behold found an ammo can. It had a hazardous waste symbol on it - "odd" I thought. It was hard to open and when I managed to open it, I found no swag or logbook, just mud and water, basically sludge. "oh no" I thought...muggled". As I stand up to leave, I see a burlap sack. "What is this?" I thought. Curiosity gets the better of me, and I check it out. It's the cache....

 

What the heck was the ammo can? I still have no idea.

 

I don't blame people (cachers or not) about being wary of a marked container of any sort, I know I'm more cautious now.

[+Renegade Knight]

Hello everyone. I am adding this thread because I was one of the two people who found the cache on the day in question and is now possibly subject to charges for inciting a panic. ...

 

Worth noting.

You didn't incite a panic. Others did by making choices on how to react to an innocent activity.

I say that because I've seen caches reported as bombs, signed by the muggle finding them who investigated what they saw and reported as a drug stash. How do you control any of that? You don't. Others do. They incided the 'panic'. However since I think the police did their job as did everone else they should just all call it a day and go home.

[+Renegade Knight]

...An IED could very well be hidden in or on a guardrail... ...

 

They can and are hidden anywhere. Per the guides I've read remote areas are high risk as are urban. I had a hard time finding what actually wasn't high risk unless you can figure out what areas are in that space between remote and urban.

 

IED reality. Anytime, anywhere, looking like anything. If he helped avoid scruteny they would mark them as caches just as those nice little christian fish symbols have been used on cars to avoid scruteny.

[+WebChimp]

You didn't answer the question. Given only what my mythical cop knew would you open the package?

 

Of course. A good mythical cop would always open it.

[+NikkiPoooo]

If he helped avoid scruteny they would mark them as caches just as those nice little christian fish symbols have been used on cars to avoid scruteny.

 

Very good point. I still think it imprudent to hide something harmless in a container marked otherwise.

[ktroxell72]

"What changed pre and post 9-11 is the politics. The profession should have always been doing the right thing and making hard decisions based on little information."

 

I was actually saying how law enforcement responds to suspicious packages has changed since 9/11 as well as the anthrax scares. I think charges are warranted because the person chose to ignore the rules of geocaching. Every ammo box I have found has www.geocaching.com and so do most of the other styles, except for micros. They chose not to remove the danger warnings on this item.

[+CWFI34]

Hello everyone. I am adding this thread because I was one of the two people who found the cache on the day in question and is now possibly subject to charges for inciting a panic. I just want to clear the air on a few things. First, many of the statements in the news articles are just not true. One article says that we dropped the container and ran to the car. In fact, I couldn't fit it back on the guardrail, and then I realized that I was trying to put it in the wrong area. As we cached, we did not see anyone watching us. We did not run to the car. As far as a beeping sound in one of our pockets, one of our cell phones was ringing which we answered.

 

The cache in question is located in Bridgeport, OH, which is just across the river from Wheeling, WV. The cache number is GC195FQ. As of right now, I believe that the charges may be dropped as the police dept. learns more about geocaching. There has been an enormous response from the local geocaching community, which we appreciate. In my opinion, the police dept. took the appropriate action in the situation. However, I feel it was just a misunderstanding and no one needs to be charged. The outside of the container was not labeled as a geocache, which is one of the main problems. Obviously, I have seen the container and I know what it looks like in person. We placed the purple kaleidoscope in the container.

 

I think that part of the problem is that the Wheeling area is almost saturated with geocaches. People are running out of places to have quality hides. As such, cachers are resorting to locations that have more traffic and are more commonplace. As the sport increases, I see this as an evergrowing problem. The more caches we bring into the city, the higher the chance that this will happen again. The best solution is to try and keep the police departments aware of caches in their area, and above all, to label the container so bystandards will be able to identify it as harmless prop. I hope this helps all of you, and feel free to ask questions. Thanks for your support.

 

Weirdzone, two bits of advice. 1. Lawyer Up, the Chief will have a very hard time getting a conviction. 2. Defense "No Criminal Intent".

[+Confucius' Cat]

Hello everyone. I am adding this thread because I was one of the two people who found the cache on the day in question and is now possibly subject to charges for inciting a panic. I just want to clear the air on a few things. First, many of the statements in the news articles are just not true. One article says that we dropped the container and ran to the car. In fact, I couldn't fit it back on the guardrail, and then I realized that I was trying to put it in the wrong area. As we cached, we did not see anyone watching us. We did not run to the car. As far as a beeping sound in one of our pockets, one of our cell phones was ringing which we answered.

 

The cache in question is located in Bridgeport, OH, which is just across the river from Wheeling, WV. The cache number is GC195FQ. As of right now, I believe that the charges may be dropped as the police dept. learns more about geocaching. There has been an enormous response from the local geocaching community, which we appreciate. In my opinion, the police dept. took the appropriate action in the situation. However, I feel it was just a misunderstanding and no one needs to be charged. The outside of the container was not labeled as a geocache, which is one of the main problems. Obviously, I have seen the container and I know what it looks like in person. We placed the purple kaleidoscope in the container.

 

I think that part of the problem is that the Wheeling area is almost saturated with geocaches. People are running out of places to have quality hides. As such, cachers are resorting to locations that have more traffic and are more commonplace. As the sport increases, I see this as an evergrowing problem. The more caches we bring into the city, the higher the chance that this will happen again. The best solution is to try and keep the police departments aware of caches in their area, and above all, to label the container so bystandards will be able to identify it as harmless prop. I hope this helps all of you, and feel free to ask questions. Thanks for your support.

 

Weirdzone, two bits of advice. 1. Lawyer Up, the Chief will have a very hard time getting a conviction. 2. Defense "No Criminal Intent".

You didn't incite the panic, the muggle did. You coulda been checking out a cool bug sitting on the guardrail or feeding the birds and got the same result.

[+EScout]

Global Incident Map

Well, it did not even make the Incident map, so it can't be that bad. Seriously though, the cache location is more of an issue than the container. Of course, no one should be prosecuted for this over-reaction, but you can see by this map, there are "over-reactions" constantly. They seem to greatly outnumber real incidents.

[+PhxChem]

CAUTION POISONOUS AND CAUSTIC HAZARD,

 

Once again, DRANO is poisonous and caustic!! Even if I spilled a decon container's worth on the ground.....it's really not going to do anything. And if I spilled it on my skin....well, it might hurt. And if I drink it, that would be bad, too.

 

But how could it affect a state highway?

 

I saw the officer reading the label on the decon container out loud on the news footage. Sounded like he wanted folks to know he had a reason for getting all excited over a harmless container.

 

"But you see.......it says caustic....by God, I HAD to protect the public!"

[+GPSlug]

It sounds to me like the Chief was feeling embarrassed and was blustering for the camera mostly. Probably in a week or so it will drop off the town's radar.

[+sbell111]

It sounds to me like you have a problem with bombs being placed in guardrails, not geocaches.

 

Lets outlaw bombs.

I'm not sure where you got that from... I don't think I even implied that I had a problem with anyone placing caches anywhere.

 

Let's recap our correspondance in this thread, shall we?

 

*In response to someone questioning using containers that are marked as containing ammuntition or hazardous materials you said that no human would assume that a box that says it has ammunition in it might have ammunition in it.

*I replied that this human might have assumed just that had she wandered upon a such marked container in the woods before she knew that these containers were used for a game

Actually, what I posted was my belief that most humans wouldn't assume that the ammo can was fumm of ammo. The fact that you would believe that it was does not alter my thesis.

*You said that since surplus containers are everywhere and they always have been you'd never guess that a container might contain what it says it contains

*I replied that I've been taught to remove or cover markings on surplus items to avoid confusion. I also postulated that this is a good policy because while some people may be familiar with surplus items with markings on them, others may not and might become alarmed by them

I've never made that statement.

*I replied to a poster who'd posted some incorrect information about IEDs (improvised explosive devices) in an effort to prove that the officer's caution was unwarranted

*You replied to that with a somewhat incoherant rant about the fact that IEDs are not commonly placed in OH and that you think bomb squads should train using geocaches?

I don't really believe that I ever rant. I certainly don't find the referenced post to be one.

 

What I was going for, is the fact that the police and their associated bomb squads have a job to do. They roll out and follow a set of guidelines for every suspicious package. The overwhelming majority of these packages are not bombs. I suspect that for the jurisdiction in question, the percentage of harmless items esploded approaches 100%. That doesn't make the job unnecessary, in my opinion, for two reasons. First, there is always the miniscule chance that the item will be a dangerous device. Second, 'deactivating' these harmless items is good training should they happen upon the real thing.

 

I'm sorry that you didn't understand my point.

*I asked you why people need to die before a very real possibility is cautioned against.

 

*You drew from the above conversation that I'm against guardrail caches

 

Am I wrong in being confused by this conclusion?

You posted a series of disasterous happenings: 9/11, school shootings, space shuttle losses and asked the question "Do we need to wait until something terrible happens and people die to be cautious about a very possible threat?"

 

From that question posed to this thread, I could only assume that you were stating that caches such as the one discussed in the thread were the 'very possible threat' to which you referred. This prompted my post.

 

Much as we do not blame 9/11 on the buildings or planes and we don't blame schools (in general) for school shootings and we recognize that the space program is worthy, even though it is fraught with peril, we cannot blame guardrail caches for the potential for bad guys to place bombs.

 

We recognize that sometimes these very caches will be misunderstood and the authorities will work the process, but that does not mean that the system is broken.

Edited March 19, 2008 by sbell111

[MidLifeCacher]

I have found many caches hidden by this person, and have enjoyed them all. It does start me to thinking though, that maybe guardrail caches, in these paranoid times, are not such a good idea.

Let's get back to the woods. The birds and the squirrels usually mind their own business.

[ktroxell72]

Here is another television report from a Wheeling, WV station on the incident.

http://www.wtrf.com/story.cfm?func=viewsto...p;storyid=36157

[+cainrcc]

I found this cache on feb 19th and when I found it the container was a small glass jar.Not sure how it changed into a decon container,I will email the cache owner and see if she changed the container or if someone else replaced it for her. My sister (a muggle) called chanel 7 news and they want to talk to me and do a story about geocaching.

[+Mule Ears]

CAUTION POISONOUS AND CAUSTIC HAZARD,

 

Once again, DRANO is poisonous and caustic!! Even if I spilled a decon container's worth on the ground.....it's really not going to do anything. And if I spilled it on my skin....well, it might hurt. And if I drink it, that would be bad, too.

 

But how could it affect a state highway?

 

I saw the officer reading the label on the decon container out loud on the news footage. Sounded like he wanted folks to know he had a reason for getting all excited over a harmless container.

 

"But you see.......it says caustic....by God, I HAD to protect the public!"

 

Well, sure, as a private individual acting on my own independent judgment, I'd have opened the box for a peek inside. But cops have procedures to follow, and I'm sure there's one for incidents involving suspicion of hazardous chemicals. To violate procedures is to risk at the very least a butt-chewing.

 

Besides, the bomb squad call was canceled before they arrived. Presumably the cacher who was on site convinced the cop that the chemical warning on the decon box didn't apply, and they popped the lid. Just from the bare facts, I don't read the cop's actions as those of a panicky Barney Fife, just a uniformed town employee following procedures.

 

Remember the world we live in. It's not (just) 9/11, but a general and increasing aversion to risk. On the Tucson TV news last year they showed some footage of a school being evacuated and guys in space suits and respirators heading in. Must be bad, really bad, right? Some kid dropped a mercury thermometer in chem class. If it had been after hours with no witnesses, the chem teacher would have scooped up the beads of liquid metal and put 'em in a jar for routine disposal. But with a room full of kids, some of whom have crazy and/or litigious parents, he had to call in the hazmat team.

 

It's not the world I would prefer, but it's the world that is.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Mule Ears

[+Rockin Roddy]

How many IEDs are placed in Ohio each year? How many geocaches? Since the IED number approaches zero, and teh geocache number likely numbers in the thousands, there is a good chance that the bomb squads will have more opportunities to train with geocaches than they will in disarming IEDs.

 

How many planes were hijacked and flown into highrise buildings during peacetime before 9-11? How many since then? Does the fact that it just happened once mean that we shouldn't pay more attention to airport security and planes in areas they didn't belong in?

 

How many high school students planned and carried out massive attacks on their schools before Columbine? How many attacks since have been much less deadly due to increased awareness and preparedness?

 

How many times had space shuttles blown up upon reentry before Columbia?

 

Do we need to wait until something terrible happens and people die to be cautious about a very possible threat? When we do wait there is enormous backlash against the agencies who waited because they should have known better. Law enforcement officers have every reason to approach any unknown situation with the utmost care these days... just because no militant nutjob has planted an IED in a guardrail yet doesn't mean that the next unknown package in a guardrail isn't going to blow up.

I still fly. I still go into high rise buildings. I will still expect my children to go to school. I will still fly into space. OK, maybe not the last one, but I would if they would let me.

 

It sounds to me like you have a problem with bombs being placed in guardrails, not geocaches.

 

Lets outlaw bombs.

 

This reply gets me...I like it! I totally agree with it too, as soon as we can quickly identify all bombs, maybe this will be helpful??

 

Oh, but wait...aren't illegally used or made bombs outlawed already??

[+sbell111]

How many IEDs are placed in Ohio each year? How many geocaches? Since the IED number approaches zero, and the geocache number likely numbers in the thousands, there is a good chance that the bomb squads will have more opportunities to train with geocaches than they will in disarming IEDs.

How many planes were hijacked and flown into highrise buildings during peacetime before 9-11? How many since then? Does the fact that it just happened once mean that we shouldn't pay more attention to airport security and planes in areas they didn't belong in?

 

How many high school students planned and carried out massive attacks on their schools before Columbine? How many attacks since have been much less deadly due to increased awareness and preparedness?

 

How many times had space shuttles blown up upon reentry before Columbia?

 

Do we need to wait until something terrible happens and people die to be cautious about a very possible threat? When we do wait there is enormous backlash against the agencies who waited because they should have known better. Law enforcement officers have every reason to approach any unknown situation with the utmost care these days... just because no militant nutjob has planted an IED in a guardrail yet doesn't mean that the next unknown package in a guardrail isn't going to blow up.

I still fly. I still go into high rise buildings. I will still expect my children to go to school. I will still fly into space. OK, maybe not the last one, but I would if they would let me.

 

It sounds to me like you have a problem with bombs being placed in guardrails, not geocaches.

 

Lets outlaw bombs.

This reply gets me...I like it! I totally agree with it too, as soon as we can quickly identify all bombs, maybe this will be helpful??

 

Oh, but wait...aren't illegally used or made bombs outlawed already??

Sure they are.

 

Selling drugs is illegal in Chicago, but that doesn't stop some from trying to make baggies illegal.

 

My point is (and was) that we need to focus on the harmful activities and not so much on the harmless ones. The fact that harmless activities are sometimes mistaken for harmful activities does not mean that we should change our focus to outlaw the harmless activities.

Edited March 19, 2008 by sbell111

[+Rockin Roddy]

How many IEDs are placed in Ohio each year? How many geocaches? Since the IED number approaches zero, and the geocache number likely numbers in the thousands, there is a good chance that the bomb squads will have more opportunities to train with geocaches than they will in disarming IEDs.

How many planes were hijacked and flown into highrise buildings during peacetime before 9-11? How many since then? Does the fact that it just happened once mean that we shouldn't pay more attention to airport security and planes in areas they didn't belong in?

 

How many high school students planned and carried out massive attacks on their schools before Columbine? How many attacks since have been much less deadly due to increased awareness and preparedness?

 

How many times had space shuttles blown up upon reentry before Columbia?

 

Do we need to wait until something terrible happens and people die to be cautious about a very possible threat? When we do wait there is enormous backlash against the agencies who waited because they should have known better. Law enforcement officers have every reason to approach any unknown situation with the utmost care these days... just because no militant nutjob has planted an IED in a guardrail yet doesn't mean that the next unknown package in a guardrail isn't going to blow up.

I still fly. I still go into high rise buildings. I will still expect my children to go to school. I will still fly into space. OK, maybe not the last one, but I would if they would let me.

 

It sounds to me like you have a problem with bombs being placed in guardrails, not geocaches.

 

Lets outlaw bombs.

This reply gets me...I like it! I totally agree with it too, as soon as we can quickly identify all bombs, maybe this will be helpful??

 

Oh, but wait...aren't illegally used or made bombs outlawed already??

Sure they are.

 

Selling drugs is illegal in Chicago, but that doesn't stop some from trying to make baggies illegal.

 

My point is (and was) that we need to focus on the harmful activities and not so much on the harmless ones. The fact that harmless activities are sometimes mistaken for harmful activities does not mean that we should change our focus to outlaw the harmless activities.

 

Don't get me wrong sbell, I do agree. BUT, just how on earth should we do this? Unit all you armchair LEOs can come up with that, this won't help a bit and will only cause angst amongst us!

[+sbell111]

How many IEDs are placed in Ohio each year? How many geocaches? Since the IED number approaches zero, and the geocache number likely numbers in the thousands, there is a good chance that the bomb squads will have more opportunities to train with geocaches than they will in disarming IEDs.

How many planes were hijacked and flown into highrise buildings during peacetime before 9-11? How many since then? Does the fact that it just happened once mean that we shouldn't pay more attention to airport security and planes in areas they didn't belong in?

 

How many high school students planned and carried out massive attacks on their schools before Columbine? How many attacks since have been much less deadly due to increased awareness and preparedness?

 

How many times had space shuttles blown up upon reentry before Columbia?

 

Do we need to wait until something terrible happens and people die to be cautious about a very possible threat? When we do wait there is enormous backlash against the agencies who waited because they should have known better. Law enforcement officers have every reason to approach any unknown situation with the utmost care these days... just because no militant nutjob has planted an IED in a guardrail yet doesn't mean that the next unknown package in a guardrail isn't going to blow up.

I still fly. I still go into high rise buildings. I will still expect my children to go to school. I will still fly into space. OK, maybe not the last one, but I would if they would let me.

 

It sounds to me like you have a problem with bombs being placed in guardrails, not geocaches.

 

Lets outlaw bombs.

This reply gets me...I like it! I totally agree with it too, as soon as we can quickly identify all bombs, maybe this will be helpful??

 

Oh, but wait...aren't illegally used or made bombs outlawed already??

Sure they are.

 

Selling drugs is illegal in Chicago, but that doesn't stop some from trying to make baggies illegal.

 

My point is (and was) that we need to focus on the harmful activities and not so much on the harmless ones. The fact that harmless activities are sometimes mistaken for harmful activities does not mean that we should change our focus to outlaw the harmless activities.

 

Don't get me wrong sbell, I do agree. BUT, just how on earth should we do this? Unit all you armchair LEOs can come up with that, this won't help a bit and will only cause angst amongst us!

'We' already are doing it. The process in place works.

 

A citizen reports suspicious items to law enforcement who investigates. If the item is harmful, more investigation is required. If the item is determined to be benign, case closed and a job well done.

[+Renegade Knight]

"What changed pre and post 9-11 is the politics. The profession should have always been doing the right thing and making hard decisions based on little information."

 

I was actually saying how law enforcement responds to suspicious packages has changed since 9/11 as well as the anthrax scares. I think charges are warranted because the person chose to ignore the rules of geocaching. Every ammo box I have found has www.geocaching.com and so do most of the other styles, except for micros. They chose not to remove the danger warnings on this item.

 

I'm not aware that breaking the rules of a casual activity was a chargeable offence. Breaking the law while participating in that activity is another thing. At no point does writing "cache" on a cache rise to the level of law. It's a good idea, nothing more. We should avoid the slippery slope in charging people for a lack of 'common sence'. It would leve 3 people running the entire country since we all take our turns being dumbasses.

 

My orginal point on pre/post 9-11 is that politics changed how we react. Not proffesionalism. The right thing to do with a call before 9-11 should still be the right thing now. Unless we learned something real in the meantime. There has always been a balance between allowing mass disruption based on a mere threat (which means all you need is the threat) and keeping us safe from the real thing. Pro's and Joe's alike would agree that a threat should be ignored (insofar as mass disruption) and the real thing acted upon. We need pro's to judge the difference. A cache...was never even a threat. Merely an observation that was phoned in where a pro decided to treat it like a threat as opposed to someone directly calling in a threat like our Senior Class President because he was going to blow his AP English Exam.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+edscott]

It's actually not a bad article, though I was amused that the writer felt the need to describe the toys in detail. Someone needed a few more words to meet the deadline?

 

Perhaps he was spelling out to the local community how much the local authorities had over reacted to a box of trinkets.

[+Renegade Knight]

...'We' already are doing it. The process in place works.

 

A citizen reports suspicious items to law enforcement who investigates. If the item is harmful, more investigation is required. If the item is determined to be benign, case closed and a job well done.

 

This system does work. Most real bombs and such are found by Joe Public while we live our lives. Not the pro's. They don't have time to walk the streets with dogs sniffing every square inch of the world for meth lab dump sites, anthrax, bird flu zones, and bombs. They rely on John and Jane Doe and Joe Cacher as well.

 

The only time the system breaks is when Joe Public does his job and Johnny Law thumps his chest about wasting his time on a system that HE designed (no doubt with help from politicans). and threatens to charge Joe Public for what? Living? Most of the time they go back to reality after they get their soundbyte. Sheriff's seem to be the most likely to grand stand. Most regular police seem to be the most understanding about how life happens.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

If he helped avoid scruteny they would mark them as caches just as those nice little christian fish symbols have been used on cars to avoid scruteny.

 

Very good point. I still think it imprudent to hide something harmless in a container marked otherwise.

 

I agree. Maybe were we differ on the container is the criminality of not painting over the markings? I paint over the markings on my caches. My stencil for "geocache" though was lost in a move...I need to make another one.

[4wheelin_fool]

The labels should be covered up so they are not used as an excuse by officials to overreact.