Railroad laws/safety

[Guest geospotter]

Progun and I have been having a discussion regarding Railroad laws on another thread. Since it was a little off-topic for that thread I thought I would start another. The discussion centers around the placement of caches on or near railroad tracks. My feeling is that we should not since it is illegal to be on or near railroad tracks.

 

Progun disagrees stating that there is no law in his state (Arizona) governing trespassing on railroad tracks. He checked. Well, progun, you missed this one --

 

"State law in Arizona makes it a third degree crime for a person to knowingly enter or remain unlawfully on the railroad right-of-way, the storage or switching years or rolling stock of a railroad company. The section does not specify a range of punishment. Ariz Rev. Stat. Ann. § 13-1502 (1999)."

 

Progun also states that "I have no idea what AZOL.ORG is, nor do I really care. Really, anyone from the east coast can quote from a web page that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the law, but it really isn't all that productive."

 

Well let me get productive for a moment and tell you who AZOL.ORG is. They are charged with the education of the people of Arizona about the laws and safety issues of railroad tracks. Give it a read. It has EVERYTHING to do with the law. While you're there, check out the Board of Directors so that you know who you are dealing with.

 

Normally I would just let it go, but I can't let misinformation that endangers peoples' lives be treated as fact. So, in that vein --

 

This response was received from Mr. Charles Hagood, Regional Manager of the Federal Railroad Administration (Arizona region) --

 

"You are quite correct that is illegal and dangerous to trespass on railroad right of way. Trespassing on railroad property and facilities has become a more serious problem in recent years. According to the Federal Railroad Administration's Railroad Safety Statistics, Annual Report 2000, there were 463 trespasser fatalities in Calendar year 2000 in the United States. Arizona had 15 fatalities in that calendar year. Arizona ranked number seven in the top 15 states for trespass fatalities."

(He went on to quote the statute shown above.)

 

Progun, please don't get me wrong, I really DO appreciate your discussion. Because you and I have discussed this openly, I feel we just may prevent a terrible accident (imagine the headlines "14 YEAR OLD HIT BY TRAIN WHILE GEOCACHING"). You and I both agree that we don't want someone looking over our shoulders about where we decide to place caches, but I feel that by doing something illegal you invite police scrutiny and neither of us wants that. I guess my point is "for our own sake and for the sake of our sport please don't place caches near railroad tracks".

[Guest jeremy]

I'm going to separate myself from the law discussion. As I am not a lawyer it seems pretty silly to argue the law at all.

 

I'd rather apply common sense in this situation. One issue with railroad tracks is the fact that people right now are really sensitive about "strange activity" around places that could be potential terrorist targets. Just stay away. An exception, of course, would be "rails to trails" projects, so I'm talking active railroad tracks.

 

Even without the heightened awareness lately, stay the heck away from railroad tracks! Trains only blare their horns when they approach known crossing points to warn people that they're coming. By the time you hear the train it's too late. Don't cross tracks, and don't hide caches near them so others may have to cross tracks. K?

 

'Nuff said.

 

Jeremy

[Guest k2dave]

said, in todays climate it is a very stupid idea to place a package along the RR tracks and leave it there.

[Guest jeo]

What about abandoned tracks? There are a few around here that are definitely not being used. They have park style gates across the tracks mainly to keep people from driving down them.

[Guest Team Dragon]

I really don't blame him for questioning who azol.org is, they have absolutely nothing to do with the state of Arizona.

 

Despite that they are no more important to the legal process than MADD is, the reference cited is correct and included the necessary verification information. Anyone can verify the wording of Statute 1502 in Section 13 by going to http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/01502.htm.

 

Now, the statute in question mentions nothing about leaving anything in the right of way, it only mentions tresspassing. It also doesn't mention how crossing the right of way (knowingly entering) isn't tresspassing which leaves the whole deifinition in need of clarification. I'll leave the legal interpretation to others.

 

My opinion is that a cache should not be placed close (subject to interpretation) to where large objects can go by at high rates of speed. There are plenty of places to hide caches, everyone just needs to exercise their brains a bit.

[Guest Cape Cod Cache]

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV...

I think trains are WAY cool, I have a model train with some geocachers in the woods on it. The safe/stupid ratio comes into play now. The only trains on Cape Cod MA are the tourist train or the trash-train that takes rubbish off the penninsula. They move about 30 MPH...MAYBE !!!!!

 

I had thought of an isolated stretch of track, 1/4 mile long. It is insulated from a train, track is gone on both ends. I was gonna offer $1,000,000 for the first person to get hit by a train, but too close to my area caches, and crossing Rt 134 in Dennis MA is pretty dangerous. Safe/sorry factor... A good 'rail-fan' virtual cache would be too cool, just ask first.

[Guest celts]

Security has been increased along Union Pacific main lines and at bridges,

tunnels, and other infrastructure. Railroad police are also limiting access to

employees only at centralized computer and communications centers, as well as

office complexes around the system-this all since Sept. 11th. Union Pacific police evicted 46,479 trespassers from railroad property in 1999.

 

Railroad tracks are private property and trespassers can be prosecuted.

People should avoid railroad tracks like they avoid walking

down the middle of an Interstate highway because trains can come along at any

time on any track and they are even more dangerous than trucks or cars.

Trespassers sometimes are killed because they are not expecting a train to

come along.

In addition to the danger, trespassers are subject to arrest for violating trespasser

laws, possibly facing time in jail or a fine. More than 100,000 trespassers were

removed by railroad police from UP property in 1997.

While Operation Lifesaver's traditional efforts to improve safety at America's highway-rail crossings have

been successful, recent figures anticipate a 14% increase in railroad incidents involving pedestrians. Too many

Americans are unaware of the dangers of walking on or near railroad tracks and equipment. This can be life-threatening

and it is illegal. A few things taken from Union Pacific employee web-site relating to the subject. When that person gets home ( the one who is actually riding on the train) , I'll try to get specific law.

[Guest celts]

http://www.fra.dot.gov/pdf/cross_chp9.pdf

 

Specific law listed by state.

[Guest progun]

I only plan on making one post to this thread, so here goes.

 

Arizona Revised Statute states that it is against the law to "2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company."

 

However, simply being on the right-of-way is not always "unlawfull". If they ask you to leave, or the area is posted then it is definately a no no. I was recently doing some railroad photography. Nothing professional, just some stuff for me as I am a train fanatic. When I went to the Union Pacific to get permission, they had no trouble at all. Prior to Sept. 11th they didn't really care if people were out there as long as they were not near any of the controls or switches and such. I don't know what it is like since the 11th as I haven't talked to them, but I suspect that it is a lot different.

 

I responded to a statement that said something like it was always illegal to go "anywhere near a railroad track." While it might be illegal, it is not always illegal. You can certianly be there if you have permission. Also, I questioned the web site where the "qoute of the law" came from. To me this is like being in a restaurant and asking for a medium burger. The waitress says that they have to cook it well done because it is the law. It is not the law, it might be their policy, but it is not the law.

 

The bottom line is this, if you think it is unsafe, DONT DO IT. If you think it might be against the law, THEN ASK. Just please don't make blanket statements saying that something is definately against the law when I have the letter and pictures to prove that you can be on the right-of-way if you have permission.