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FTF Hogs


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Recently a series came out near me where there were 10 caches in a row along

a rural road.

The first person on the scene got 8 of the FTFs and missed the last two only because someone

had started at the other end.

 

I love a good competition for FTFs, but (I don't know, Jerry!) sometimes I think

they are FTF hogs and should let someone else find at least a FEW of the 10.

I see where a person is SO happy to get their first FTF - it's heartwarming

to see the joy they experience. So, when someone takes all 10 of a new series,

I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. Am I wrong here?

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Recently a series came out near me where there were 10 caches in a row along

a rural road.

The first person on the scene got 8 of the FTFs and missed the last two only because someone

had started at the other end.

 

I love a good competition for FTFs, but (I don't know, Jerry!) sometimes I think

they are FTF hogs and should let someone else find at least a FEW of the 10.

I see where a person is SO happy to get their first FTF - it's heartwarming

to see the joy they experience. So, when someone takes all 10 of a new series,

I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. Am I wrong here?

 

I think millionaires and billionaires are inconsiderate, they should give me some of their money even though I didn't earn it or deserve it.

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Am I wrong here?

 

Well, no. You can maintain any opinion you want since this isn't a legislated part of game play.

 

I love a good competition for FTFs, but (I don't know, Jerry!) sometimes I think

they are FTF hogs and should let someone else find at least a FEW of the 10.

 

If you are a competitive person, you only run because you think someone is chasing. How fast would a sprinter move if he ran alone? Competition is a strong driving force and to ask for competitive charity seems unrealistic.

 

I see where a person is SO happy to get their first FTF - it's heartwarming

to see the joy they experience.

 

I remember my first FTF, It was amazing. I wanted that feeling so much that I have turned into a bit of a hound. Because I am driven by the "joy" I first experienced.

 

So, when someone takes all 10 of a new series,

I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate.

 

In reality finding those caches is supposed to be the cool part, so that aspect isn't ruined for anyone as long as the caches are still there to be found.

 

But that is the way I feel about those things. Many differ in opinion.

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Folsom - we have just been discussing this very thing a few threads down: First to Find, But how many "Firsts"

 

The overwhelming concensus in that thread was that (and correct me please, gang, if I miss anything) the FTF race is a side game and shouldn't be taken seriously, but that the spirit of the FTF experience is negated if cachers are handed their FTF. I don't generally participate in this part of the game (here is my one effort) but I agree with this opinion.

 

However, I can see why it may seem excessive for a cacher to be the first to find an entire series of caches. If you're out there for the first one, the rest are kind of... well... not much of a race, are they? I think if it were me, I might take the first one and then wait to see if anyone else was coming along. But that's me :D I don't mind if someone else wants to be first on them all. I'll get to them eventually.

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It is what it is... I don't think there's anything unsportsmanlike about, but it also doesn't really count for anything either. Getting a FTF is kinda cool the first time, but I never really understood the attraction to the FTF race. Geocaching is not a competition no matter how much some people try to make it one. To me, the only FTF's that are really meaningful or represent an accomplishment are caches that have set unfound for a long time due to extreme terrain or that required some extensive planning and execution. Or caches (puzzle or otherwise) that have stumped many other cachers. Being the first to claim a cache that everyone else has been DNFing for months, now that's a cool reward. Being the first to lift up a bunch of lamp skirts .01 apart, or the first to hit the dumpsters behind all the Wallgreens, wow, now there's something to brag about. Who cares.

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Don't let it bother you. In my area, there's a group of what I can only assume are retirees, as at least one of them, often more, find new caches within what seems like nano-seconds of them being posted. One person in particular always seems to be "driving by the hide" when it's posted, and finds many within 15 minutes. It's good when they get beat by someone else!

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Recently a series came out near me where there were 10 caches in a row along

a rural road.

The first person on the scene got 8 of the FTFs and missed the last two only because someone

had started at the other end.

 

I love a good competition for FTFs, but (I don't know, Jerry!) sometimes I think

they are FTF hogs and should let someone else find at least a FEW of the 10.

I see where a person is SO happy to get their first FTF - it's heartwarming

to see the joy they experience. So, when someone takes all 10 of a new series,

I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. Am I wrong here?

 

As has been asked in many threads, would you really feel satisfied, knowing that you got a ftf only because it was given to you? I'm sorry but i just don't understand how that would be any fun. You sometimes have to work for things you want. Ftfs are no different.

 

On the 10 caches, i know that if i was out there going for them, i would go for all of them. Not necessarily trying to get all the ftfs but mainly because i was already there and wouldn't want to make another trip out.

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I am an FTF hog, it is my responsibility to be one to save mankind.

 

You see if I backed ofF and let others get easy FTF without working for them and earning them these people would soon treat life like it owes them.

 

Very soon they would pass this off on their circle of friends, relatives and kids and before you know it you have a generation that feels they're entitled to everything (like premier caches) while working for nothing.

 

Leap ahead when all that's left is a population of entitled people, no one works, nothing gets done. Soon houses deteriorate, people starve, it's mayhem, billions die and no one does anything about it till manknd ceases to exist.

 

So you see, it's a burden I undertook to find as any FTFs as I can to preserve our way of life.

Edited by Roman!
  • Funny 1
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I know this is going to sound a bit inconsiderate, but... Who cares? Is FTF really that important? If you got into this hobby to be a stat chaser, I guess FTF might be important. For me personally, it was a way to spend a bit more time outdoors, to keep sharp on perishable skills that I learned in the Army, to get my kids involved outdoors and have fun. The numbers are fine, but really not that important.

 

I'm not knocking anyone who makes it all about the numbers, but if that's the choice they make, they're going to be disappointed when the numbers don't fall their way. (ie, FTF, streaks, etc.)

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I am an FTF hog, it is my responsibility to be one to save mankind.

...

Leap ahead when all that's left is a population of entitled people, no one works, nothing gets done. Soon houses deteriorate, people starve, it's mayhem, billions die and no one does anything about it till manknd ceases to exist.

 

 

We thank you for all your hard work. Your sacrifice will be appreciated for generations. :cool:

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I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. Am I wrong here?

 

It's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate to call FTF hogs unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. FTF means nothing if slacking is to be expected.

 

Perhaps this thread should be merged with the other FTF thread? Or maybe it could merged with the Drama Drama Alarm thread for extra entertainment.

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A month or two ago a new "power trail" was published. This trail had about 30 new caches and was along a beautiful hike to a lake. We drove an hour to get there and started the hike. Someone had started the hike before us and gotten all the FTFs. We continued the hike and while we were hiking we got notifications that about 10 new caches were published along the trail that were past all of the other newly published caches. We completed the hike and got FTF on the 10 caches that were published while we were on our hike.

 

So what you're suggesting is that we should have found the first cache and then either turned around and not completed our hike, or just walked by the other caches without finding them so someone else can get the FTFs? We should either make the hour drive and couple hour hike again or just never find the caches?

 

I realize this isn't a typical situation, but why should caches have to leave and come back to any place just so you can be handed a FTF? It's a waste of time and money. If you want a FTF, buy a premium membership, set up text alerts and when one comes in, go find it. Not too hard. We've gotten 48 FTFs in two years and honestly, we pass on going after the majority of caches that are published in our area.

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I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. Am I wrong here?

 

Yes. I see absolutely no problem with that behavior. I can't imagine somebody going to a new series and turning around after 1 or 2 so that somebody else can share in the FTFs. If I'm already there, I'm going to do the other caches if I have time so I don't have to drive back.

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So, when someone takes all 10 of a new series,

I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. Am I wrong here?

 

If driving were free, and everyone had lots of spare time for cache hunts, sure. Find some, leave some. However, making return trips to find caches is going to cost people time and money.

 

I once deliberately found one of 3 new caches, after waiting four days, over a weekend to even hunt the first one. I walked by the 2 on my way to the furthest out. I kept returning over the next week and another weekend, adding one find per day until I had them all. ( I ended up with all 3 FTF anyway. )

 

These caches are near where I live, and in an area where I generally walk several times a week. It was easy enough to skip the finds, and didn't really cost me any gas $$ or time to do it this way. Mostly, this isn't the case for people out cache hunting. Mostly, it isn't the case for me.

I wouldn't drive 45 miles and leave caches along a trail that otherwise appealed to me unfound, so someone who started slower could beat me to them.

 

I'm with Roman, preserving our way of life ;-)

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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I think millionaires and billionaires are inconsiderate, they should give me some of their money even though I didn't earn it or deserve it.

 

I'm totally down with getting things handed to me that I didn't earn..... Not.... Unless it's money. Where do I get in line for some of that billionaire money? :unsure:

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Those who get lots of FTF's are usually dedicated geocachers. A local cacher recently got 65 out of 110 FTF's but only by starting out at 2:30 am! (would have got them all if somone never started from the other direction. if your unable to be up at that sort of time, you might as well not worry about getting FTF ;)

 

locally we say that STF is the new FTF ;)

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There sure are a lot of FTF threads around here! Which was the first one? It's not fair that the other's weren't First.

 

In this area, we maintain a list with an FTF plan. When a cache is posted, everyone in the area types a note stating whether or not they will seek the cache. Then the list is re-ordered, based on the number of previous FTFs, and time slots are assigned. At your assigned time, go find the cache, and the Designated FTF of course finds it first. If there's any issue with FTF arriving before the rest, everyone else leaves that spot blank, announces online that [whoever will be FTF] is the FIRST, and renumbers their find. Sometimes people arrive in a group for some reason, so the Cache Owner will have ropes and cones set up, and cachers line up in the order they arrived, and each is allowed five minutes to find, sign, and leave, in turn, with the FTF going first, if present.

 

Lately, people have complained that there's a guy who's Second To Find all the time. So we've tracked finds for every cacher, so that we can fairly allot second, third, fourth, and so on. Still, some people had been getting all the one-hundredth-to-finds. That's not fair! We needed a way to proportion OHTF so that the same group doesn't get it anymore. The way we did that is to call them “OHTF Hogs”. That seems to have taken care of that problem. The most important thing about Geocaching is to find out what order people have found caches previously, and reorganize them.

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There sure are a lot of FTF threads around here! Which was the first one? It's not fair that the other's weren't First.

 

In this area, we maintain a list with an FTF plan. When a cache is posted, everyone in the area types a note stating whether or not they will seek the cache. Then the list is re-ordered, based on the number of previous FTFs, and time slots are assigned. At your assigned time, go find the cache, and the Designated FTF of course finds it first. If there's any issue with FTF arriving before the rest, everyone else leaves that spot blank, announces online that [whoever will be FTF] is the FIRST, and renumbers their find. Sometimes people arrive in a group for some reason, so the Cache Owner will have ropes and cones set up, and cachers line up in the order they arrived, and each is allowed five minutes to find, sign, and leave, in turn, with the FTF going first, if present.

 

Lately, people have complained that there's a guy who's Second To Find all the time. So we've tracked finds for every cacher, so that we can fairly allot second, third, fourth, and so on. Still, some people had been getting all the one-hundredth-to-finds. That's not fair! We needed a way to proportion OHTF so that the same group doesn't get it anymore. The way we did that is to call them “OHTF Hogs”. That seems to have taken care of that problem. The most important thing about Geocaching is to find out what order people have found caches previously, and reorganize them.

 

All the finds on all the caches on my area should be nullified, so that I can be FTF on all of them, regardless of how long they've been around, or how many people before me have inconsiderately claimed to have found them before I did. :laughing: This is especially true of those caches placed before I began caching. Since I wasn't a cacher when they were originally published, the people who signed before me had an unfair advantage on claiming all those finds before I had a chance. :rolleyes:

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All the finds on all the caches on my area should be nullified, so that I can be FTF on all of them, regardless of how long they've been around, or how many people before me have inconsiderately claimed to have found them before I did. :laughing: This is especially true of those caches placed before I began caching. Since I wasn't a cacher when they were originally published, the people who signed before me had an unfair advantage on claiming all those finds before I had a chance. :rolleyes:

Can't you just write in the really small space above the first signature, and sign it? That's what I always do. :anibad:

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All the finds on all the caches on my area should be nullified, so that I can be FTF on all of them, regardless of how long they've been around, or how many people before me have inconsiderately claimed to have found them before I did. :laughing: This is especially true of those caches placed before I began caching. Since I wasn't a cacher when they were originally published, the people who signed before me had an unfair advantage on claiming all those finds before I had a chance. :rolleyes:

Can't you just write in the really small space above the first signature, and sign it? That's what I always do. :anibad:

OH, brilliant! I was just ripping the pages out to sign a blank logbook. I like your solution. :smile:

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FTF week in the forums. If a CO lists 10 caches in a row (or something even more, say the darn E.T. series), they automatically bring up the possibility of one person taking all 10 FTFs. There was this cacher who hid like 10 caches in a trail system. It took me a ferry ride (which is over $30) and 15 miles driving to get there. I got the first FTF. Should I just turn around? That would seem silly to me. I got 4 solo FTFs, I shared a couple with another gal I met in the trails, she got at least one by herself (which I could have got, but she went to work and found the cache that was 1.5 miles off in its coordinates and I found it on the way out as well later, its an obvious GZ)...etc.

 

This morning I saw a new publish only 1.2 miles from home. I decided it was not worth the rushing out as I just got one this last week, but if you put 10 caches in a row in a trail and I want to walk the whole trail, you bet I am going to get the FTFs.

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After a while at the buffet, I stop eating.

 

On occasion I've opened a logbook a few days after publishing to realize, uh-oh - no logs, quietly put it back without signing, and tiptoed away. I can always return later.

 

Once I signed in the first position, "Couldn't find it - looked everywhere". The FTFers were a bit perplexed by that, but claimed FTF - which was my intent.

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I love a good competition for FTFs, but (I don't know, Jerry!) sometimes I think they are FTF hogs and should let someone else find at least a FEW of the 10.
So, which is it? Are FTFs a competition, like gold medals at the Olympics? (Does anyone complain about athletes with more than one medal "hogging" the medals?) Or are FTFs something to be shared, like a plate of potstickers at a Chinese restaurant? (We usually divide potstickers evenly, with the extras going to the guy who doesn't like soup.)

 

It doesn't make sense to "love a good competition", but then call for the competition's elimination when some people consistently win and others consistently lose.

 

If you call for FTFs to be shared, then you're calling for the elimination of the "good competition". (And IMHO, you'd also be tilting at a windmill, but that issue has already been addressed in this thread.)

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After a while at the buffet, I stop eating.

 

On occasion I've opened a logbook a few days after publishing to realize, uh-oh - no logs, quietly put it back without signing, and tiptoed away. I can always return later.

 

Once I signed in the first position, "Couldn't find it - looked everywhere". The FTFers were a bit perplexed by that, but claimed FTF - which was my intent.

 

Love it!!! I'll have to remember that one!

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Two words for those who want an FTF: Try Harder!

I have three words

"Up Your Game!"

 

A few years ago I was trying to buy a Nintendo Wii for the kids for Christmass. I got the the store the day they received their shipment 2h before the store opened. Guess what? There was already a line of more people than the shipment. So instead of complaining, I upped my game. Next week I was 5h early. I was the second person there, and got my Wii. Standing there in the freezing cold, I could only lagh at others who showed up late and got angry about how it was "unfair". All I said was "You are going to have to Up Your Game!"

 

Here are some helpfull hints for the OP

 

1. Get push e-mail on your phone. POP3 can cost you valuable minutes.

1a. If you don't have a smart phone, have geocaching.com send notifications to your phone's text message email address (something like {10 diget phone number}@text.att.net, google it for your service provider)

2. Have your geocaching supplies ready to go, perferably in the car.

3. Learn your reviewers habbits. My reviewer usualy publishes cacher aroung 0730h or 2200h. Be ready to go at those times (not mine, yours), and have your phone handy.

4. Don't drive like a maniac. You definatly will not get FTF if you are stopped for speeding/running red light, or crash.

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With comments like "if you're not first, you're last. Try harder" and comparisons of the FTF game to "any other sport" I thought I'd relate "FTF Hogs" and to a practice that sometimes occurs in other sports. For those that might be unfamiliar with the phrase "Running up the Score" here's how the wikipedia page describes it:

 

""running up the score" occurs when a team continues to play in such a way as to score additional points after the outcome of the game is no longer in question and the team is assured of winning." It goes on to say, "In the United States and Canada, it is considered poor sportsmanship to "run up the score" in most circumstances."

 

The page further describes several examples in american football (professional, collegiate, and high school), basketball, baseball, and other sports that involve players making millions of dollars. When a team is accused of running up the score in one of these sports they are strongly criticized for poor sportsmanship and humiliating or embarrassing their opponent. There have been numerous incidents where a losing coach refused to shake hands with an opposing coach when they thought the winning coach was running up the score. One can imagine what might happen if the winning coach met the losing coach after winning at mid field after winning 77-0 in an American football game and said, "Next time, try harder."

 

Yet, event though running up the score is almost always criticized and is considered "bad form" there have been many in all the recent FTF threads in a game, can't even fathom the possibility of making sure both shoes are tied before racing out of the house a 3:00 in the morning so that they can put their name on a piece of paper found in a parking lot.

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With comments like "if you're not first, you're last. Try harder" and comparisons of the FTF game to "any other sport" I thought I'd relate "FTF Hogs" and to a practice that sometimes occurs in other sports. For those that might be unfamiliar with the phrase "Running up the Score" here's how the wikipedia page describes it:

 

""running up the score" occurs when a team continues to play in such a way as to score additional points after the outcome of the game is no longer in question and the team is assured of winning." It goes on to say, "In the United States and Canada, it is considered poor sportsmanship to "run up the score" in most circumstances."

 

The page further describes several examples in american football (professional, collegiate, and high school), basketball, baseball, and other sports that involve players making millions of dollars. When a team is accused of running up the score in one of these sports they are strongly criticized for poor sportsmanship and humiliating or embarrassing their opponent. There have been numerous incidents where a losing coach refused to shake hands with an opposing coach when they thought the winning coach was running up the score. One can imagine what might happen if the winning coach met the losing coach after winning at mid field after winning 77-0 in an American football game and said, "Next time, try harder."

 

Yet, event though running up the score is almost always criticized and is considered "bad form" there have been many in all the recent FTF threads in a game, can't even fathom the possibility of making sure both shoes are tied before racing out of the house a 3:00 in the morning so that they can put their name on a piece of paper found in a parking lot.

I think that your argument falls into the "False Analogy Fallacy" catagory. I think a better analogy would be a team who wins 1-0 all 82 games (or more likely 79 of the 82).

Edit to add:

I see the FTF race for each cache as a seperate "game". Maybe think of it like Usain Bolt winning every 100m race for 4 years. He may only win by 0.04second, but he still wins.

Edited by Andronicus
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So, when someone takes all 10 of a new series,

I think it's unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. Am I wrong here?

 

If driving were free, and everyone had lots of spare time for cache hunts, sure. Find some, leave some. However, making return trips to find caches is going to cost people time and money.

 

I once deliberately found one of 3 new caches, after waiting four days, over a weekend to even hunt the first one. I walked by the 2 on my way to the furthest out. I kept returning over the next week and another weekend, adding one find per day until I had them all. ( I ended up with all 3 FTF anyway. )

 

These caches are near where I live, and in an area where I generally walk several times a week. It was easy enough to skip the finds, and didn't really cost me any gas $$ or time to do it this way. Mostly, this isn't the case for people out cache hunting. Mostly, it isn't the case for me.

I wouldn't drive 45 miles and leave caches along a trail that otherwise appealed to me unfound, so someone who started slower could beat me to them.

 

I'm with Roman, preserving our way of life ;-)

 

Did you do this to leave the FTF opportunities open to other cachers? In the other thread, I explained how I did something similar. The only response was to tell me that my charity would better used at a soup kitchen.

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I don't care about FTF... And I'm going to sound like a tree hugger saying this but I guess the only thing I don't like about them is they will just burn countless gallons of gas for no reason except to be the first to sign a piece of paper. Geocaching tries for this image of being eco-friendly, while FTF is the complete opposite of this. The last couple of caches I placed and hunted for, 100 percent bicycle power.

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With comments like "if you're not first, you're last. Try harder" and comparisons of the FTF game to "any other sport" I thought I'd relate "FTF Hogs" and to a practice that sometimes occurs in other sports. For those that might be unfamiliar with the phrase "Running up the Score" here's how the wikipedia page describes it:

 

""running up the score" occurs when a team continues to play in such a way as to score additional points after the outcome of the game is no longer in question and the team is assured of winning." It goes on to say, "In the United States and Canada, it is considered poor sportsmanship to "run up the score" in most circumstances."

 

The page further describes several examples in american football (professional, collegiate, and high school), basketball, baseball, and other sports that involve players making millions of dollars. When a team is accused of running up the score in one of these sports they are strongly criticized for poor sportsmanship and humiliating or embarrassing their opponent. There have been numerous incidents where a losing coach refused to shake hands with an opposing coach when they thought the winning coach was running up the score. One can imagine what might happen if the winning coach met the losing coach after winning at mid field after winning 77-0 in an American football game and said, "Next time, try harder."

 

Yet, event though running up the score is almost always criticized and is considered "bad form" there have been many in all the recent FTF threads in a game, can't even fathom the possibility of making sure both shoes are tied before racing out of the house a 3:00 in the morning so that they can put their name on a piece of paper found in a parking lot.

I like all the analogies for the FTF HOGS, but this one really makes me laugh. How can you compare the two? There isn't a score in geocaching so there is nothing to "run up". :laughing:

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With comments like "if you're not first, you're last. Try harder" and comparisons of the FTF game to "any other sport" I thought I'd relate "FTF Hogs" and to a practice that sometimes occurs in other sports. For those that might be unfamiliar with the phrase "Running up the Score" here's how the wikipedia page describes it:

 

""running up the score" occurs when a team continues to play in such a way as to score additional points after the outcome of the game is no longer in question and the team is assured of winning." It goes on to say, "In the United States and Canada, it is considered poor sportsmanship to "run up the score" in most circumstances."

 

The page further describes several examples in american football (professional, collegiate, and high school), basketball, baseball, and other sports that involve players making millions of dollars. When a team is accused of running up the score in one of these sports they are strongly criticized for poor sportsmanship and humiliating or embarrassing their opponent. There have been numerous incidents where a losing coach refused to shake hands with an opposing coach when they thought the winning coach was running up the score. One can imagine what might happen if the winning coach met the losing coach after winning at mid field after winning 77-0 in an American football game and said, "Next time, try harder."

 

Yet, event though running up the score is almost always criticized and is considered "bad form" there have been many in all the recent FTF threads in a game, can't even fathom the possibility of making sure both shoes are tied before racing out of the house a 3:00 in the morning so that they can put their name on a piece of paper found in a parking lot.

I think that your argument falls into the "False Analogy Fallacy" catagory. I think a better analogy would be a team who wins 1-0 all 82 games (or more likely 79 of the 82).

Edit to add:

I see the FTF race for each cache as a seperate "game". Maybe think of it like Usain Bolt winning every 100m race for 4 years. He may only win by 0.04second, but he still wins.

 

I get what you're saying. However, Usain Bolt competes against other world class athletes. In one of the other FTF threads, the OP was describing a scenario where other "competitors" were retired or otherwise could leave a house at a moments noticed in a motor vehicle. The OP thought it might bring a smile to the face of a young child to get just one FTF. I suspect that if Usain Bolt was running a 200 yd. dash against a 6 year old girl he might ease up a bit.

 

In the context of this thread I don't see the race for each cache as a separate game. The OP is talking about a mini power trail where the first one to hit the trail is likely going to get FTF on every cache, i.e. running up the score for the number of FTFs to everyone else.

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If you're not first, you're last. And don't ever forget it.

Ricky Bobby's wisdom knows no bounds.

When I saw that movie, I thought that was a stupid statement.

 

But then I got thinking about it in the caching context. FTF is a race.... If you're not the first, you're just the last person to sign the log.

 

On a different tack, that Michael Phelps sure is a medal hog ain't he? He should have left some medals for the other swimmers. :rolleyes:

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With comments like "if you're not first, you're last. Try harder" and comparisons of the FTF game to "any other sport" I thought I'd relate "FTF Hogs" and to a practice that sometimes occurs in other sports. For those that might be unfamiliar with the phrase "Running up the Score" here's how the wikipedia page describes it:

 

""running up the score" occurs when a team continues to play in such a way as to score additional points after the outcome of the game is no longer in question and the team is assured of winning." It goes on to say, "In the United States and Canada, it is considered poor sportsmanship to "run up the score" in most circumstances."

 

The page further describes several examples in american football (professional, collegiate, and high school), basketball, baseball, and other sports that involve players making millions of dollars. When a team is accused of running up the score in one of these sports they are strongly criticized for poor sportsmanship and humiliating or embarrassing their opponent. There have been numerous incidents where a losing coach refused to shake hands with an opposing coach when they thought the winning coach was running up the score. One can imagine what might happen if the winning coach met the losing coach after winning at mid field after winning 77-0 in an American football game and said, "Next time, try harder."

 

Yet, event though running up the score is almost always criticized and is considered "bad form" there have been many in all the recent FTF threads in a game, can't even fathom the possibility of making sure both shoes are tied before racing out of the house a 3:00 in the morning so that they can put their name on a piece of paper found in a parking lot.

I think that your argument falls into the "False Analogy Fallacy" catagory. I think a better analogy would be a team who wins 1-0 all 82 games (or more likely 79 of the 82).

Edit to add:

I see the FTF race for each cache as a seperate "game". Maybe think of it like Usain Bolt winning every 100m race for 4 years. He may only win by 0.04second, but he still wins.

 

I get what you're saying. However, Usain Bolt competes against other world class athletes. In one of the other FTF threads, the OP was describing a scenario where other "competitors" were retired or otherwise could leave a house at a moments noticed in a motor vehicle. The OP thought it might bring a smile to the face of a young child to get just one FTF. I suspect that if Usain Bolt was running a 200 yd. dash against a 6 year old girl he might ease up a bit.

 

In the context of this thread I don't see the race for each cache as a separate game. The OP is talking about a mini power trail where the first one to hit the trail is likely going to get FTF on every cache, i.e. running up the score for the number of FTFs to everyone else.

So you are saying that my argument also suffers from the False Analogy Falacy. That is kind of the problem with analogies is that you can always find a "better" one, disproving the previous one.

 

And I don't know about you, but I consider geocachers to be world class. So your Bolt vs. 6 year old analogy does not hold up. And why on earth did that 6 year old challange Bolt to a race? How did she even qualify for the race? What country is sending a 6 year old to the olympics? Maybe 6 year olds shouldn't be racing against Bolt. I know that my kids have never got a FTF other than when I dragged them along. I was the competitor, they were really just spectators (Except that once when my then 9 year old daugter beat me to the find).

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If you're not first, you're last. And don't ever forget it.

Ricky Bobby's wisdom knows no bounds.

When I saw that movie, I thought that was a stupid statement.

 

But then I got thinking about it in the caching context. FTF is a race.... If you're not the first, you're just the last person to sign the log.

 

On a different tack, that Michael Phelps sure is a medal hog ain't he? He should have left some medals for the other swimmers. :rolleyes:

 

Never watched the movie, so I have no idea what the quote is. As a NASCAR fan for many decades I can tell you that a longstanding phrase is "If your not first, your the first loser". Another popular one is, "I'd beat my own mother for a win". Luckily, in my seven years of caching, I have never seen that sort of mentality in my community regarding FTFs. It has always been a friendly rivalry, and the players have changed over the years.

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I don't care about FTF... And I'm going to sound like a tree hugger saying this but I guess the only thing I don't like about them is they will just burn countless gallons of gas for no reason except to be the first to sign a piece of paper. Geocaching tries for this image of being eco-friendly, while FTF is the complete opposite of this. The last couple of caches I placed and hunted for, 100 percent bicycle power.

 

Obviously you don't care about FTFs, riding a bike is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. :blink:

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I don't care about FTF... And I'm going to sound like a tree hugger saying this but I guess the only thing I don't like about them is they will just burn countless gallons of gas for no reason except to be the first to sign a piece of paper. Geocaching tries for this image of being eco-friendly, while FTF is the complete opposite of this. The last couple of caches I placed and hunted for, 100 percent bicycle power.

 

Obviously you don't care about FTFs, riding a bike is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. :blink:

 

Just like winning a gun fight with a knife would be, the FTFs I have achieved on my bike and on transit are THAT MUCH MORE gratifying.

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If you're not first, you're last. And don't ever forget it.

Ricky Bobby's wisdom knows no bounds.

When I saw that movie, I thought that was a stupid statement.

 

But then I got thinking about it in the caching context. FTF is a race.... If you're not the first, you're just the last person to sign the log.

 

On a different tack, that Michael Phelps sure is a medal hog ain't he? He should have left some medals for the other swimmers. :rolleyes:

 

Never watched the movie, so I have no idea what the quote is. As a NASCAR fan for many decades I can tell you that a longstanding phrase is "If your not first, your the first loser". Another popular one is, "I'd beat my own mother for a win". Luckily, in my seven years of caching, I have never seen that sort of mentality in my community regarding FTFs. It has always been a friendly rivalry, and the players have changed over the years.

 

When I came on the scene in 2003, I trumped the local FTF hounds and upset their little world.

 

9key was our approver (they weren't called reviewers in the olden days) and he regularly published caches in the late evening.

 

At the time I worked 1400 to 2200. I also have night vision. It was really easy to snap up a few FTFs on the way home.

 

The race got heated and I let the FTF junkies have their drug back uncut. It didn't mean nearly as much to me, plus it's the FTF folk who are the first to find out if the coords are bad or if it's in a bad area. I quickly changed my strategy to going for caches with good word of mouth. It has kept me in the game and all those guys are mostly burnt out on cachin' these days.

 

That seems to be the fate of most FTF hounds from my experience and the faces do change.

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I suspect that if Usain Bolt was running a 200 yd. dash against a 6 year old girl he might ease up a bit.
IIRC, Usain does ease up on qualifying races. He still wins, but he saves his energy (and his best times) for the final races where he is competing against the best runners for the prize.

 

But more to the point: Even if there are 6-year-old girls at Usain's events, Usain isn't competing against 6-year-old girls. And Joe FTF Hog isn't competing against 6-year-old girls either. Joe FTF Hog is competing against Tom FTF Hog and Steve FTF Hog and Dave FTF Hog and Bob FTF Hog and all the other FTF Hogs.

 

And maybe it looks like Joe FTF Hog is "running up the score" with this series of caches, at least, compared to the 6-year-old girl. But again, he isn't competing against the 6-year-old girl. He's competing against all the other FTF Hogs. That's clear from the fact that someone else started from the opposite end and beat him to some of the FTFs.

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If you're not first, you're last. And don't ever forget it.

Ricky Bobby's wisdom knows no bounds.

When I saw that movie, I thought that was a stupid statement.

 

But then I got thinking about it in the caching context. FTF is a race.... If you're not the first, you're just the last person to sign the log.

 

On a different tack, that Michael Phelps sure is a medal hog ain't he? He should have left some medals for the other swimmers. :rolleyes:

No doubt, the entire movie is pretty dumb but I can't help but laugh at Will Ferrell. That guy is hilarious.

 

There aren't but a handful of really active geocachers in my area so the FTF "race" is pretty easy going. I've gotten three in the last few weeks and they were all by chance. One after work on my way home, the other two in the same day on a pre-planned caching hike. I happened to figure out a puzzle cache the night before and that morning a new traditional popped up in my email.

 

I think it's a fun, light-hearted competition but in no way do I take it seriously. Getting upset over others "hogging" them all is a waste of energy and focus if you ask me.

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Most games where sportsmanship is important the game ends at some point; if you are up 48-0 in football in the 4th quarter then yes keep running up the middle to burn time and end the game sooner rather than trying to score more points.

 

FTFs is a lifetime stat; the game never ends. Therefore I don't think amassing FTFs is unsporting.

 

To me unsporting would not how many FTFs you get, but how you get them:

taking FTF on a tribute cache placed for someone else

giving out coords to your friends ahead of time so they are guaranteed FTFs

claiming FTF without signing the log

breaking any laws to get a FTF

hiding your FTF acknowledgment to trick others into thinking FTF is still available (ex: intentionally signing on the back of the log instead of the front, intentionally delaying logging your find)

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