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Replacing Caches if DNF


Devsar

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Just looking for a bit of advice.

 

I recently went caching with a friend and logged DNFs on a couple of caches after spending quite a while looking for them. We added the caches to our watch lists and have noticed that a very experienced cacher (not cache owner) has recently visited the caches we looked for, they also could not find them, and, after seeing our DNFs (both on same day and logs clearly show we were caching together), they have replaced the caches with their own container and logged the find. There were no DNFs immediately before our logs

 

Just wondering, is that something that's acceptable to do?, because our immediate thought was that it wasn't acceptable, but we weren't sure

 

Any advice?

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The whole throw down issue has been the subject of many topics and their are two sides. One says it is okay the other not. This was never an issue before power traios where it is encouraged and now the disease has spread to regular caches. Don't bother to try and contact the owner to see if the scoundrel had permission. It is up to the Co to deal with it.

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Many thanks for that palmetto, how would I find out if the CO has been contacted first though? As I suspect maybe they weren't? Just seems a bit quick to assume a cache is missing when only one DNF is logged, aren't there rules for how many DNFs before a throwdown?

You don't have to worry about any of that. The issue is documented in the logs, so if the owner wasn't aware of the throwdown prior to it being placed, then he is now. He will handle the issue as he believes appropriate.

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Just looking for a bit of advice.

 

I recently went caching with a friend and logged DNFs on a couple of caches after spending quite a while looking for them. We added the caches to our watch lists and have noticed that a very experienced cacher (not cache owner) has recently visited the caches we looked for, they also could not find them, and, after seeing our DNFs (both on same day and logs clearly show we were caching together), they have replaced the caches with their own container and logged the find.

 

Any advice?

 

The bolded part is telling. Why is it that so many who throw-down claim it's for the community yet they log a find on their own throw-down AND they never go back to maintain what they left (continuing the abandonment issue and lack of responsibility).

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aren't there rules for how many DNFs before a throwdown?

 

IMHO, there is no number of DNFs before a throwdown. A throwdown without the owners permission is wrong even with a thousand DNFs.

 

There are no "rules" from Groundspeak as to how many. There are plenty of rules in place on what to do when you don't find something, you don't need to cheat for the smiley. (I'm speaking of the "you generically not you the OP. [:)])

 

If a cache is missing, you get a DNF, period. Anything else is just fooling yourself.

 

Of course we all play a little different, but if I have a throwdown on one of my caches it would be one of the few times I would care enough to delete a log.

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No, it's not acceptable after any number of DNFs, but some people don't understand that, so it happens, but I don't worry about it. I think palmetto's comments are a little lenient. If someone replaces a cache with permission of the CO, they should say that in the log. If the log doesn't indicate any cooperation with the CO, I consider it a throwdown without worrying at all about whether there's been some secret communications.

 

After a series of DNFs, the correct procedure is to file a Needs Maintenance rather than unilateral replacement, but I would suggest you not worry about logging NMs until you have more experience. It's not terrible to file an incorrect NM, but there are lots of considerations, so since it's not really a big deal for a cache to be missing, there's no particular reason not to wait for someone with more experience to declare a problem.

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Just looking for a bit of advice.

 

I recently went caching with a friend and logged DNFs on a couple of caches after spending quite a while looking for them. We added the caches to our watch lists and have noticed that a very experienced cacher (not cache owner) has recently visited the caches we looked for, they also could not find them, and, after seeing our DNFs (both on same day and logs clearly show we were caching together), they have replaced the caches with their own container and logged the find.

 

Any advice?

 

The bolded part is telling. Why is it that so many who throw-down claim it's for the community yet they log a find on their own throw-down AND they never go back to maintain what they left (continuing the abandonment issue and lack of responsibility).

 

Here's a portion of a log I wrote for a cache I found yesterday (Yes, I claimed the Find, but if the CO were to delete it I would not complain about it):

 

the container I found was obviously a throwdown left by (name redacted), cachers from (location redacted) who came prepared to have no DNFs on their caching trip, as the only name on the log was theirs, preprinted in preparation for the throwdown.

 

The throwdown was left by cachers who are approaching the 20,000 find mark. :blink:

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Just looking for a bit of advice.

 

I recently went caching with a friend and logged DNFs on a couple of caches after spending quite a while looking for them. We added the caches to our watch lists and have noticed that a very experienced cacher (not cache owner) has recently visited the caches we looked for, they also could not find them, and, after seeing our DNFs (both on same day and logs clearly show we were caching together), they have replaced the caches with their own container and logged the find.

 

Any advice?

 

The bolded part is telling. Why is it that so many who throw-down claim it's for the community yet they log a find on their own throw-down AND they never go back to maintain what they left (continuing the abandonment issue and lack of responsibility).

 

Here's a portion of a log I wrote for a cache I found yesterday (Yes, I claimed the Find, but if the CO were to delete it I would not complain about it):

 

the container I found was obviously a throwdown left by (name redacted), cachers from (location redacted) who came prepared to have no DNFs on their caching trip, as the only name on the log was theirs, preprinted in preparation for the throwdown.

 

The throwdown was left by cachers who are approaching the 20,000 find mark. :blink:

 

Maybe it's just my own experience, but it seems like throwdowns are more often left by those with higher numbers by their names.

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Here's a portion of a log I wrote for a cache I found yesterday (Yes, I claimed the Find, but if the CO were to delete it I would not complain about it):

 

the container I found was obviously a throwdown left by (name redacted), cachers from (location redacted) who came prepared to have no DNFs on their caching trip, as the only name on the log was theirs, preprinted in preparation for the throwdown.

A log describing what you found in impartial yet explicit terms sounds perfect to me. That way people that are outraged who to be outraged at while people that are amused (like me) know who to laugh at. (Yeah, I admit that as dumb as I think throwdowns are, I'll sign the log and claim the find unless I have some reason to think the real cache is still there.)

 

Maybe it's just my own experience, but it seems like throwdowns are more often left by those with higher numbers by their names.

I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

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. . . unless I have some reason to think the real cache is still there.

 

 

Actually, I think a "more real" cache (not the original, but a previous throwdown) was still there. The recent history of this cache is:

 

Nov 2013 I DNF'd it

Nov 2013 someone posted "Quick easy find"

Nov-Dec 3 more finds

Jan 2014 A find saying "log full, replaced log"

Mar-Aug 5 more finds

Sept 17 The throwdown find--log does not mention throwdown

Sept 22 I found the throwdown

 

The reason I think the other container was also a throwdown is because the hint says the original is orange, and a log from a while back says it is not orange anymore.

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Maybe it's just my own experience, but it seems like throwdowns are more often left by those with higher numbers by their names.

I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

In two examples that I can immediately think of, the original was there and I found it right after someone threw down a replacement.

 

In the first example, the CO deleted the 'found it' log by the guy with over 60k finds.

In the second example (which I've posted about before), the CO (the same CO as the first example) actually thanked the person who threw it down (who had over 20k finds) and let the log stand, though nobody after that point ever found the throwdown!

Edited by J Grouchy
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I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

On the other fin, I'd say that's how they got so many finds! Look for a minute, toss a throwdown! They don't accept the possibility of a DNF! No! We find everything! I sometimes wonder what percentage of their finds are throwdowns?

My classic example is: Fun in the Hamptons - Coney in the sky

 

A great cache using pulleys inside a hollow tree to lower some pine cones, with a bison tube cache. Tree was cut down in March of 2011. A few DNFs testify to that. Megacacher replaced it (even though the tree it was hidden in had been cut down.) Need that find! No DFs for me! Another megacacher replaced it a few days later! Lots of DNFs by cachers following the original cache page. Who cares if the magnolia tree was cut soen, and the cache page makes no sense?!? There are throwdowns to be found! Finally both throwdowns disappeared. And it was archived. The CO had disappeared and did not do maintenance. But the throwdowners prevailed for a year or so.

Really sad! It was a great cache!

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I was guilty of this once. I didn't understand the rules so I replaced a cache placed about ten miles from my house. I realize now, that had i just posted a "Needs Maintenance" log, then the area could have been opened up for other caters. The only caches I replace are my own, or that of a friend (He hurt his leg and has been out of caching so I maintain his cache for him).

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On the other fin, I'd say that's how they got so many finds! Look for a minute, toss a throwdown! They don't accept the possibility of a DNF! No! We find everything! I sometimes wonder what percentage of their finds are throwdowns?

If any more than 10% of the caches they look for are lost, there's a serious problem in that area. And despite the existence of a few counter examples, I seriously doubt more than a small fraction of a percent of any high numbered cacher's finds are throwdowns on top of caches that are there but just difficult. It's not as if anyone's doubling their find counts via throwdowns.

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I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

On the other fin, I'd say that's how they got so many finds! Look for a minute, toss a throwdown! They don't accept the possibility of a DNF! No! We find everything! I sometimes wonder what percentage of their finds are throwdowns?

My classic example is: Fun in the Hamptons - Coney in the sky

 

A great cache using pulleys inside a hollow tree to lower some pine cones, with a bison tube cache. Tree was cut down in March of 2011. A few DNFs testify to that. Megacacher replaced it (even though the tree it was hidden in had been cut down.) Need that find! No DFs for me! Another megacacher replaced it a few days later! Lots of DNFs by cachers following the original cache page. Who cares if the magnolia tree was cut soen, and the cache page makes no sense?!? There are throwdowns to be found! Finally both throwdowns disappeared. And it was archived. The CO had disappeared and did not do maintenance. But the throwdowners prevailed for a year or so.

Really sad! It was a great cache!

It seems that, based on your narrative, what caused it to stop being a great cache was the tree being cut down and the owner going AWOL, not the miscreants who replaced the cache.

Edited by sbell111
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I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

On the other fin, I'd say that's how they got so many finds! Look for a minute, toss a throwdown! They don't accept the possibility of a DNF! No! We find everything! I sometimes wonder what percentage of their finds are throwdowns?

My classic example is: Fun in the Hamptons - Coney in the sky

 

A great cache using pulleys inside a hollow tree to lower some pine cones, with a bison tube cache. Tree was cut down in March of 2011. A few DNFs testify to that. Megacacher replaced it (even though the tree it was hidden in had been cut down.) Need that find! No DFs for me! Another megacacher replaced it a few days later! Lots of DNFs by cachers following the original cache page. Who cares if the magnolia tree was cut soen, and the cache page makes no sense?!? There are throwdowns to be found! Finally both throwdowns disappeared. And it was archived. The CO had disappeared and did not do maintenance. But the throwdowners prevailed for a year or so.

Really sad! It was a great cache!

It seems that, based on your narrative, what caused it to stop being a great cache was the tree being cut down and the owner going AWOL, not the miscreants who replaced the cache.

While your statement is true, sbell, I see the point the Harry is trying to make. With the tree down and the cache inoperable and/or missing,the cache should've been archived and laid to rest. Instead, it was reanimated with throwdowns, leaving Cachers to think it was still the same great cache that it always was.

 

The multiple throwdowns left at this cache are almost like zombies. They brought the listing back to life, but it's not the same cache anymore. Just an empty shell of a location with a false notion that something legitimate still exists.

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I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

On the other fin, I'd say that's how they got so many finds! Look for a minute, toss a throwdown! They don't accept the possibility of a DNF! No! We find everything! I sometimes wonder what percentage of their finds are throwdowns?

My classic example is: Fun in the Hamptons - Coney in the sky

 

A great cache using pulleys inside a hollow tree to lower some pine cones, with a bison tube cache. Tree was cut down in March of 2011. A few DNFs testify to that. Megacacher replaced it (even though the tree it was hidden in had been cut down.) Need that find! No DFs for me! Another megacacher replaced it a few days later! Lots of DNFs by cachers following the original cache page. Who cares if the magnolia tree was cut soen, and the cache page makes no sense?!? There are throwdowns to be found! Finally both throwdowns disappeared. And it was archived. The CO had disappeared and did not do maintenance. But the throwdowners prevailed for a year or so.

Really sad! It was a great cache!

It seems that, based on your narrative, what caused it to stop being a great cache was the tree being cut down and the owner going AWOL, not the miscreants who replaced the cache.

While your statement is true, sbell, I see the point the Harry is trying to make. With the tree down and the cache inoperable and/or missing,the cache should've been archived and laid to rest. Instead, it was reanimated with throwdowns, leaving Cachers to think it was still the same great cache that it always was.

 

The multiple throwdowns left at this cache are almost like zombies. They brought the listing back to life, but it's not the same cache anymore. Just an empty shell of a location with a false notion that something legitimate still exists.

I agree with what you are saying, but it should be noted that every single cacher that looked for the cache after the tree was felled could have sent a NM or a SBA. The underlying problem is still an AWOL owner.

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I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

On the other fin, I'd say that's how they got so many finds! Look for a minute, toss a throwdown! They don't accept the possibility of a DNF! No! We find everything! I sometimes wonder what percentage of their finds are throwdowns?

My classic example is: Fun in the Hamptons - Coney in the sky

 

A great cache using pulleys inside a hollow tree to lower some pine cones, with a bison tube cache. Tree was cut down in March of 2011. A few DNFs testify to that. Megacacher replaced it (even though the tree it was hidden in had been cut down.) Need that find! No DFs for me! Another megacacher replaced it a few days later! Lots of DNFs by cachers following the original cache page. Who cares if the magnolia tree was cut soen, and the cache page makes no sense?!? There are throwdowns to be found! Finally both throwdowns disappeared. And it was archived. The CO had disappeared and did not do maintenance. But the throwdowners prevailed for a year or so.

Really sad! It was a great cache!

It seems that, based on your narrative, what caused it to stop being a great cache was the tree being cut down and the owner going AWOL, not the miscreants who replaced the cache.

While your statement is true, sbell, I see the point the Harry is trying to make. With the tree down and the cache inoperable and/or missing,the cache should've been archived and laid to rest. Instead, it was reanimated with throwdowns, leaving Cachers to think it was still the same great cache that it always was.

 

The multiple throwdowns left at this cache are almost like zombies. They brought the listing back to life, but it's not the same cache anymore. Just an empty shell of a location with a false notion that something legitimate still exists.

I agree with what you are saying, but it should be noted that every single cacher that looked for the cache after the tree was felled could have sent a NM or a SBA. The underlying problem is still an AWOL owner.

Could have and should have. Looks like that came later when all of the throwdowns finally went missing. I love how somebody even says in their log that they "found all 3!" That's a straight up throwdown party.

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IMHO, there is no number of DNFs before a throwdown. A throwdown without the owners permission is wrong even with a thousand DNFs.

 

There are no "rules" from Groundspeak as to how many. There are plenty of rules in place on what to do when you don't find something, you don't need to cheat for the smiley. (I'm speaking of the "you generically not you the OP. [:)])

 

If a cache is missing, you get a DNF, period. Anything else is just fooling yourself.

 

 

Yup.

 

 

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Throwdowns are related to what I call "generic" caching. There are people who see caching as a series of cache hunts that are supposed to end in a find. If the cache is actually missing, then it's impossible to find. If the cache owner won't/can't do maintenance the cache should be archived. But "generic" caching advocates may say that a generic throwdown replacement is a better solution as it allows people to continue to hunt/find this cache. In otherwords, people search for a cache and for whatever reasons they are convinced the cache is missing. If they feel the cache owner isn't maintaining the cache they have a choice of posting a Needs Maintenance or even Needs Archive, or of leaving a throwdown to replace the missing cache. If your view is that caches are generic and it's better to keep an exisiting approved cache than to rely on some new hide to take it's place then the choice is easy. The point is that not all caches are generic; many hiders try to do something special with each hide. And even though a lot of caches seem to be generic without much thought, almost everyone realizes that you can't tell this until you find the cache. I see a throwdown on my cache as a insult. It says my cache is generic and can be replaced by someone who has not found it.

Edited by tozainamboku
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aren't there rules for how many DNFs before a throwdown?

 

IMHO, there is no number of DNFs before a throwdown. A throwdown without the owners permission is wrong even with a thousand DNFs.

 

There are no "rules" from Groundspeak as to how many. There are plenty of rules in place on what to do when you don't find something, you don't need to cheat for the smiley. (I'm speaking of the "you generically not you the OP. [:)])

 

If a cache is missing, you get a DNF, period. Anything else is just fooling yourself.

 

Of course we all play a little different, but if I have a throwdown on one of my caches it would be one of the few times I would care enough to delete a log.

 

-------------------------

 

There is a rules posting on Throwdowns : http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=427

 

I agree that throwdowns are NOT legitimate finds. The ONLY time you replace a cache is with the CO's

explicit permission.

 

*** Just because you do not find it does NOT mean that it is missing! Could the cacher be new? could the Difficulty be more than a 1.5 ?

Is it a puzzle and you didnt solve or bother to read the cache page? There could be a lot of reasons.

 

I wish the 'new' cachers would ask for guidance. They really would enjoy this a whole lot better

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I have a different perspective. My favorite caches are traditional ammo boxes in the woods and regular size caches in general. I find more of these than any other size and try to keep them at more than 30% of my total finds. Because I like to encourage children who are caching, I carry hot wheels cars in my geobag and add them to caches I find if there is room. I also carry spare logs of various sizes, extra pens, etc. to make the finds better for those who follow. I write moderately long logs to express my appreciation for the cache owner's work. Twice I have refreshed a neglected cache.

 

The first, Lizard Lane GC2R7WG, was a few miles from my home, a rare regular size trad in this urban setting that had been in a tennis ball container. Its physical decline was well documented in the logs followed by DNFs. The CO had not been active in geocaching for a number of years. I prepared a regular size cache in a 2 lb nut jar with swag, log, pens, cars, and a TB and hid it in the original spot. It has been found by 51 cachers since I first refreshed it, many of them just getting started. I particularly treasure the photos of two groups of young children who loved the cache. I keep a watch on the cache and refreshed it again when it was muggled.

 

The second, Denton, Former Maryland MML Geotrail GC41191, was one I wanted to find on a trip I was making to this area. The previous owner posted that the cache container was removed temporarily on 3/31/14. A new owner logged accepting responsibility for the cache on 4/01/2014, but there were only DNFs after that. A recent log made it clear that the searcher should have found the cache but it was missing. I visited on 5/29 and left this in the log:

 

"This could have been a DNF, but like the cacher before me, I was confident I had found the hiding place but the box was missing. I placed a temporary cache including a pen, a log book, a hot wheels car, and a TB so that others will be able to find the cache until the original box is returned or replaced. I am sending a photo of the hiding place to the cache owner to confirm that the location is correct."

 

Five cachers logged my temporary cache replacement, mostly travelers who had come to the heart of this little town to find the cache. Finally, on 6/26 she had someone else replace the cache for her. She emailed me that she didn't appreciate having her caches replaced because they were usually hidden wrong, and I sent my photos showing the correct spot. She also deleted the DNF logs. I didn't reply, but I don't appreciate a CO who has so little regard for cachers. If a cache of mine should go missing, I'd appreciate someone who gave it a temporary replacement until I could get back to it.

 

Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

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I have a different perspective. My favorite caches are traditional ammo boxes in the woods and regular size caches in general. I find more of these than any other size and try to keep them at more than 30% of my total finds. Because I like to encourage children who are caching, I carry hot wheels cars in my geobag and add them to caches I find if there is room. I also carry spare logs of various sizes, extra pens, etc. to make the finds better for those who follow. I write moderately long logs to express my appreciation for the cache owner's work. Twice I have refreshed a neglected cache.

 

The first, Lizard Lane GC2R7WG, was a few miles from my home, a rare regular size trad in this urban setting that had been in a tennis ball container. Its physical decline was well documented in the logs followed by DNFs. The CO had not been active in geocaching for a number of years. I prepared a regular size cache in a 2 lb nut jar with swag, log, pens, cars, and a TB and hid it in the original spot. It has been found by 51 cachers since I first refreshed it, many of them just getting started. I particularly treasure the photos of two groups of young children who loved the cache. I keep a watch on the cache and refreshed it again when it was muggled.

 

The second, Denton, Former Maryland MML Geotrail GC41191, was one I wanted to find on a trip I was making to this area. The previous owner posted that the cache container was removed temporarily on 3/31/14. A new owner logged accepting responsibility for the cache on 4/01/2014, but there were only DNFs after that. A recent log made it clear that the searcher should have found the cache but it was missing. I visited on 5/29 and left this in the log:

 

"This could have been a DNF, but like the cacher before me, I was confident I had found the hiding place but the box was missing. I placed a temporary cache including a pen, a log book, a hot wheels car, and a TB so that others will be able to find the cache until the original box is returned or replaced. I am sending a photo of the hiding place to the cache owner to confirm that the location is correct."

 

Five cachers logged my temporary cache replacement, mostly travelers who had come to the heart of this little town to find the cache. Finally, on 6/26 she had someone else replace the cache for her. She emailed me that she didn't appreciate having her caches replaced because they were usually hidden wrong, and I sent my photos showing the correct spot. She also deleted the DNF logs. I didn't reply, but I don't appreciate a CO who has so little regard for cachers. If a cache of mine should go missing, I'd appreciate someone who gave it a temporary replacement until I could get back to it.

 

Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

I will do my best to respectfully disagree with your opinion regarding unsolicited cache replacements (throwdowns), especially by someone who has not previously found the real cache. You didn't find the original cache so you really have no idea if the container was gone or not. I recently did a maintenance run on a cache I own in a nearby State Park. A prior finder posted a note saying it was gone and there was a string of DNF logs before I disabled the cache. My wife and I checked on the cache and I found it about 20 feet further into the woods from the trail where it was supposed to be. I am very thankful the prior finder didn't leave a throwdown in a misguided effort to be helpful. The needs maintenance log that WAS posted alerted me to the problem and allowed me to put things back in order.

 

Every cache "replacement" that is done without the approval of the owner is a throwdown. Every throwdown is a degradation of our game in my opinion. To each their own.

 

 

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I have a different perspective. My favorite caches are traditional ammo boxes in the woods and regular size caches in general. I find more of these than any other size and try to keep them at more than 30% of my total finds. Because I like to encourage children who are caching, I carry hot wheels cars in my geobag and add them to caches I find if there is room. I also carry spare logs of various sizes, extra pens, etc. to make the finds better for those who follow. I write moderately long logs to express my appreciation for the cache owner's work. Twice I have refreshed a neglected cache.

 

The first, Lizard Lane GC2R7WG, was a few miles from my home, a rare regular size trad in this urban setting that had been in a tennis ball container. Its physical decline was well documented in the logs followed by DNFs. The CO had not been active in geocaching for a number of years. I prepared a regular size cache in a 2 lb nut jar with swag, log, pens, cars, and a TB and hid it in the original spot. It has been found by 51 cachers since I first refreshed it, many of them just getting started. I particularly treasure the photos of two groups of young children who loved the cache. I keep a watch on the cache and refreshed it again when it was muggled.

 

The second, Denton, Former Maryland MML Geotrail GC41191, was one I wanted to find on a trip I was making to this area. The previous owner posted that the cache container was removed temporarily on 3/31/14. A new owner logged accepting responsibility for the cache on 4/01/2014, but there were only DNFs after that. A recent log made it clear that the searcher should have found the cache but it was missing. I visited on 5/29 and left this in the log:

 

"This could have been a DNF, but like the cacher before me, I was confident I had found the hiding place but the box was missing. I placed a temporary cache including a pen, a log book, a hot wheels car, and a TB so that others will be able to find the cache until the original box is returned or replaced. I am sending a photo of the hiding place to the cache owner to confirm that the location is correct."

 

Five cachers logged my temporary cache replacement, mostly travelers who had come to the heart of this little town to find the cache. Finally, on 6/26 she had someone else replace the cache for her. She emailed me that she didn't appreciate having her caches replaced because they were usually hidden wrong, and I sent my photos showing the correct spot. She also deleted the DNF logs. I didn't reply, but I don't appreciate a CO who has so little regard for cachers. If a cache of mine should go missing, I'd appreciate someone who gave it a temporary replacement until I could get back to it.

 

Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

 

In essence you become a pseudo-cache ownership. I can see the appeal where one would not otherwise be allowed to place a cache because they live too far away. And then responsibility for the cache still falls on the original owner. Unless you intend to go back to the cache for regular maintenance visits or whenever a report comes in about a problem with the cache.

 

One thing though, in cache dense areas this practice means that cachers who are hoping for a spot to open to place their cache, never get the opportunity. This is especially an issue if the location is a nice one - like the best spot in a small park or small town.

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I have a different perspective. My favorite caches are traditional ammo boxes in the woods and regular size caches in general. I find more of these than any other size and try to keep them at more than 30% of my total finds. Because I like to encourage children who are caching, I carry hot wheels cars in my geobag and add them to caches I find if there is room. I also carry spare logs of various sizes, extra pens, etc. to make the finds better for those who follow. I write moderately long logs to express my appreciation for the cache owner's work. Twice I have refreshed a neglected cache.

 

The first, Lizard Lane GC2R7WG, was a few miles from my home, a rare regular size trad in this urban setting that had been in a tennis ball container. Its physical decline was well documented in the logs followed by DNFs. The CO had not been active in geocaching for a number of years. I prepared a regular size cache in a 2 lb nut jar with swag, log, pens, cars, and a TB and hid it in the original spot. It has been found by 51 cachers since I first refreshed it, many of them just getting started. I particularly treasure the photos of two groups of young children who loved the cache. I keep a watch on the cache and refreshed it again when it was muggled.

 

The second, Denton, Former Maryland MML Geotrail GC41191, was one I wanted to find on a trip I was making to this area. The previous owner posted that the cache container was removed temporarily on 3/31/14. A new owner logged accepting responsibility for the cache on 4/01/2014, but there were only DNFs after that. A recent log made it clear that the searcher should have found the cache but it was missing. I visited on 5/29 and left this in the log:

 

"This could have been a DNF, but like the cacher before me, I was confident I had found the hiding place but the box was missing. I placed a temporary cache including a pen, a log book, a hot wheels car, and a TB so that others will be able to find the cache until the original box is returned or replaced. I am sending a photo of the hiding place to the cache owner to confirm that the location is correct."

 

Five cachers logged my temporary cache replacement, mostly travelers who had come to the heart of this little town to find the cache. Finally, on 6/26 she had someone else replace the cache for her. She emailed me that she didn't appreciate having her caches replaced because they were usually hidden wrong, and I sent my photos showing the correct spot. She also deleted the DNF logs. I didn't reply, but I don't appreciate a CO who has so little regard for cachers. If a cache of mine should go missing, I'd appreciate someone who gave it a temporary replacement until I could get back to it.

 

Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

 

I agree with you but not many here will.....I also avoid derogatory terms used throughout the forum. I remain convinced that the vast majority of CO's appreciate help with cache maint., I know I do,and I have had many emails thanking me for adding dry logs and replacing cracked containers.....not one chewing me out.It's only happened a couple of times on my caches but I've had as many as 3 containers at GZ...so what, log the one you want or all of them, doesn't matter to me...when I get around to it I'll pick up the extra's. Its just a simple little game folks, enjoy it and as someone said, don't sweat the small stuff.

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Its just a simple little game folks, enjoy it and as someone said, don't sweat the small stuff.

 

I agree. And one of the small realities is that you won't always find the cache. Why should you sweat that?

 

By your logic if you go hiking in a park, there's really no reason not to log every cache in the park, even if you didn't really find anything. You could also leave containers here and there as "replacements." The original container might still be there? So what. Why sweat it? More plastic food containers for others to find.

 

Maintaining some integrity and following a few simple guidelines helps slow the gradual deterioration of the game.

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Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

I consider "throwdown" a descriptive term for a cache dropped with little thought and no permission by someone with no justification other than that they cannot find the original cache. Thus, the two cases you describe are not throwdowns as I use the term.

 

Whether you should have replaced those caches with your non-throwdowns is another matter. And whether the CO of the second cache should have been snitty about your sincere but unappreciated attempt to help her is not really worth discussing.

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Its just a simple little game folks, enjoy it and as someone said, don't sweat the small stuff.

 

I agree. And one of the small realities is that you won't always find the cache. Why should you sweat that?

 

By your logic if you go hiking in a park, there's really no reason not to log every cache in the park, even if you didn't really find anything. You could also leave containers here and there as "replacements." The original container might still be there? So what. Why sweat it? More plastic food containers for others to find.

 

Maintaining some integrity and following a few simple guidelines helps slow the gradual deterioration of the game.

 

None of this relates to my post. What was mentioned was replacing cracked or damaged containers and adding dry logs...you can re read it. If you can't find it its a DNF and ,I might add, not a NA or NM which is often erroneously logged these days.

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... The second, Denton, Former Maryland MML Geotrail GC41191, was one I wanted to find on a trip I was making to this area. The previous owner posted that the cache container was removed temporarily on 3/31/14. A new owner logged accepting responsibility for the cache on 4/01/2014, but there were only DNFs after that. A recent log made it clear that the searcher should have found the cache but it was missing. I visited on 5/29 and left this in the log:

 

"This could have been a DNF, but like the cacher before me, I was confident I had found the hiding place but the box was missing. I placed a temporary cache including a pen, a log book, a hot wheels car, and a TB so that others will be able to find the cache until the original box is returned or replaced. I am sending a photo of the hiding place to the cache owner to confirm that the location is correct."

 

Five cachers logged my temporary cache replacement, mostly travelers who had come to the heart of this little town to find the cache. Finally, on 6/26 she had someone else replace the cache for her. She emailed me that she didn't appreciate having her caches replaced because they were usually hidden wrong, and I sent my photos showing the correct spot. She also deleted the DNF logs. I didn't reply, but I don't appreciate a CO who has so little regard for cachers. If a cache of mine should go missing, I'd appreciate someone who gave it a temporary replacement until I could get back to it.

 

Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

I only have two nits with what you did.

 

First, you state that the owner removed the cache temporarily. Is it possible that the cache was removed because there was temporarily a problem with the cache being at that location? Perhaps a seasonal ban or a permission issue?

 

Second, I'm not sure that I would have put a TB in the replacement cache. If the cache was temporarily removed because of muggle activity in the area, the TB could have been lost.

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Its just a simple little game folks, enjoy it and as someone said, don't sweat the small stuff.

 

I agree. And one of the small realities is that you won't always find the cache. Why should you sweat that?

 

By your logic if you go hiking in a park, there's really no reason not to log every cache in the park, even if you didn't really find anything. You could also leave containers here and there as "replacements." The original container might still be there? So what. Why sweat it? More plastic food containers for others to find.

 

Maintaining some integrity and following a few simple guidelines helps slow the gradual deterioration of the game.

 

None of this relates to my post. What was mentioned was replacing cracked or damaged containers and adding dry logs...you can re read it. If you can't find it its a DNF and ,I might add, not a NA or NM which is often erroneously logged these days.

 

" but I've had as many as 3 containers at GZ...so what, log the one you want or all of them, doesn't matter to me...when I get around to it I'll pick up the extra's. Its just a simple little game folks, enjoy it and as someone said, don't sweat the small stuff. "

 

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I was talking about? Maybe I should have clarified, I'm not criticizing anything YOU did. You just seem more forgiving than I am when others do questionable things to pad their numbers. :anibad:

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Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

 

No it isn't and yes it does.

If you are not the CO, the replacement is a throwdown.

 

In your first example, if you're so happy to see others appreciating your container, why couldn't you have just requested maintenance, waited, requested archival, waited, then put in a new cache in the same place and become the responsible cache owner the original CO was not? Really...what is so difficult about this? Is it really just all about getting the +1?

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Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

 

No it isn't and yes it does.

If you are not the CO, the replacement is a throwdown.

 

In your first example, if you're so happy to see others appreciating your container, why couldn't you have just requested maintenance, waited, requested archival, waited, then put in a new cache in the same place and become the responsible cache owner the original CO was not? Really...what is so difficult about this? Is it really just all about getting the +1?

 

Yup! That's all it's about. Getting a find on a cache that could not be found. Toss a throwdown, claim a find on it! Why log a DNF, when you can toss a throwdown, and claim you found the throwdown???

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Yup! That's all it's about. Getting a find on a cache that could not be found. Toss a throwdown, claim a find on it! Why log a DNF, when you can toss a throwdown, and claim you found the throwdown???

Wait.... there is a proper protocol to a throwdown. You have to stand with your back to GZ and toss the throwdown over your shoulder. Then you count to 10, turn around and hunt for the throwdown. That way you can actually claim that you found it. :)

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I think what Bardenl did was fine and nice of her. Look at her profile and pic's. She is out there having fun with this game and that is what it is all about. Sounds like those caches were not being taken care of and if she enjoys replacing them and seeing people enjoy finding them then I see no harm in it. I'm not saying people should be placing throw downs but when we first started we fixed up a few. I don't think we fixed ones we didn't find but still it is all just a game and it should just be fun. I would never say what she did trying to help out the game was wrong as I can tell she was trying to be nice and helpful.

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I think what Bardenl did was fine and nice of her. Look at her profile and pic's. She is out there having fun with this game and that is what it is all about. Sounds like those caches were not being taken care of and if she enjoys replacing them and seeing people enjoy finding them then I see no harm in it. I'm not saying people should be placing throw downs but when we first started we fixed up a few. I don't think we fixed ones we didn't find but still it is all just a game and it should just be fun. I would never say what she did trying to help out the game was wrong as I can tell she was trying to be nice and helpful.

 

I agree that she meant well and that it makes her feel good, but is it beneficial to the pastime as a whole? It sends a message to cache owners - it's OK to abandon a cache and its' listing, someone will replace it for you, someone else will take care of it for you. As a finder, I don't appreciate thanking a delinquent owner who unknown to me did not place the current cache and is not looking after it. I would prefer that my thanks for a good cache experience go to the active responsible owner, not to a deliquent owner. Also, replacing a bad cache with a good quality container sends another unproductive message - you don't have to learn from experience, you don't have to invest anything in a quality container, someone will come along and do it for you and you can reap the rewards of their generosity.

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I think what Bardenl did was fine and nice of her. Look at her profile and pic's. She is out there having fun with this game and that is what it is all about. Sounds like those caches were not being taken care of and if she enjoys replacing them and seeing people enjoy finding them then I see no harm in it. I'm not saying people should be placing throw downs but when we first started we fixed up a few. I don't think we fixed ones we didn't find but still it is all just a game and it should just be fun. I would never say what she did trying to help out the game was wrong as I can tell she was trying to be nice and helpful.

 

You state this very well and I agree.

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Here's a portion of a log I wrote for a cache I found yesterday (Yes, I claimed the Find, but if the CO were to delete it I would not complain about it):

 

the container I found was obviously a throwdown left by (name redacted), cachers from (location redacted) who came prepared to have no DNFs on their caching trip, as the only name on the log was theirs, preprinted in preparation for the throwdown.

A log describing what you found in impartial yet explicit terms sounds perfect to me. That way people that are outraged who to be outraged at while people that are amused (like me) know who to laugh at. (Yeah, I admit that as dumb as I think throwdowns are, I'll sign the log and claim the find unless I have some reason to think the real cache is still there.)

 

Maybe it's just my own experience, but it seems like throwdowns are more often left by those with higher numbers by their names.

I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

It's not just you, I just experienced this for the first time recently after DNF'ing a local cache. Thought it odd and inappropriate that the Throwdowner almost boasted of his "Find". It's these types that always claim it's not about the numbers, but throw down to make sure they get another number. The cache was a (stolen) ammo can... Here's the log:

 

Today was not a day about the numbers, more about grabbing some older caches and filler caches. This one was the first on the list.

 

The car GPSr made this harder than it should have been because coming up from the south, the road is blocked off with no way around. Coming in from the north, the car got a free car wash as the irrigation system was on at the farm. Unfortunately, it also meant that the car got a mud bath too. Interesting place in the middle of nowhere. At least there's nothing to run your plane into.

 

Had read the previous log and did find that it was missing. I had a spare container and log with me so I replaced it. It is now a magnetic hiding under the rail.

 

Thanks for the fun and the smiley.

 

Cache number 1836.

 

Found using c:geo on a Samsung Galaxy S5 and/or a Garmin 62s.

Edited by jwmoe1973
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I have a different perspective. My favorite caches are traditional ammo boxes in the woods and regular size caches in general. I find more of these than any other size and try to keep them at more than 30% of my total finds. Because I like to encourage children who are caching, I carry hot wheels cars in my geobag and add them to caches I find if there is room. I also carry spare logs of various sizes, extra pens, etc. to make the finds better for those who follow. I write moderately long logs to express my appreciation for the cache owner's work. Twice I have refreshed a neglected cache.

 

The first, Lizard Lane GC2R7WG, was a few miles from my home, a rare regular size trad in this urban setting that had been in a tennis ball container. Its physical decline was well documented in the logs followed by DNFs. The CO had not been active in geocaching for a number of years. I prepared a regular size cache in a 2 lb nut jar with swag, log, pens, cars, and a TB and hid it in the original spot. It has been found by 51 cachers since I first refreshed it, many of them just getting started. I particularly treasure the photos of two groups of young children who loved the cache. I keep a watch on the cache and refreshed it again when it was muggled.

 

The second, Denton, Former Maryland MML Geotrail GC41191, was one I wanted to find on a trip I was making to this area. The previous owner posted that the cache container was removed temporarily on 3/31/14. A new owner logged accepting responsibility for the cache on 4/01/2014, but there were only DNFs after that. A recent log made it clear that the searcher should have found the cache but it was missing. I visited on 5/29 and left this in the log:

 

"This could have been a DNF, but like the cacher before me, I was confident I had found the hiding place but the box was missing. I placed a temporary cache including a pen, a log book, a hot wheels car, and a TB so that others will be able to find the cache until the original box is returned or replaced. I am sending a photo of the hiding place to the cache owner to confirm that the location is correct."

 

Five cachers logged my temporary cache replacement, mostly travelers who had come to the heart of this little town to find the cache. Finally, on 6/26 she had someone else replace the cache for her. She emailed me that she didn't appreciate having her caches replaced because they were usually hidden wrong, and I sent my photos showing the correct spot. She also deleted the DNF logs. I didn't reply, but I don't appreciate a CO who has so little regard for cachers. If a cache of mine should go missing, I'd appreciate someone who gave it a temporary replacement until I could get back to it.

 

Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

I will do my best to respectfully disagree with your opinion regarding unsolicited cache replacements (throwdowns), especially by someone who has not previously found the real cache. You didn't find the original cache so you really have no idea if the container was gone or not. I recently did a maintenance run on a cache I own in a nearby State Park. A prior finder posted a note saying it was gone and there was a string of DNF logs before I disabled the cache. My wife and I checked on the cache and I found it about 20 feet further into the woods from the trail where it was supposed to be. I am very thankful the prior finder didn't leave a throwdown in a misguided effort to be helpful. The needs maintenance log that WAS posted alerted me to the problem and allowed me to put things back in order.

 

Every cache "replacement" that is done without the approval of the owner is a throwdown. Every throwdown is a degradation of our game in my opinion. To each their own.

 

+1000

 

You beat me to it. Yes, Bardenl, Throwdown IS a derogatory term, and YES it DOES apply to EVERY cache replacement that is not done by the CO or with the CO's approval (BEFORE being replaced). I archived my first cache (very unique container hidden in a pretty creative way and place) for two reasons. First, the cacher that rehid the container in what they deemed to be a more appropriate place. The next log was the throw down log that I deleted. We had just come back from looking for it to put it back where it belonged with no luck to find a Found it on a cache that wasn't there :mad: . Yeah, that one only lasted a couple months.

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I have a different perspective. My favorite caches are traditional ammo boxes in the woods and regular size caches in general. I find more of these than any other size and try to keep them at more than 30% of my total finds. Because I like to encourage children who are caching, I carry hot wheels cars in my geobag and add them to caches I find if there is room. I also carry spare logs of various sizes, extra pens, etc. to make the finds better for those who follow. I write moderately long logs to express my appreciation for the cache owner's work. Twice I have refreshed a neglected cache.

 

The first, Lizard Lane GC2R7WG, was a few miles from my home, a rare regular size trad in this urban setting that had been in a tennis ball container. Its physical decline was well documented in the logs followed by DNFs. The CO had not been active in geocaching for a number of years. I prepared a regular size cache in a 2 lb nut jar with swag, log, pens, cars, and a TB and hid it in the original spot. It has been found by 51 cachers since I first refreshed it, many of them just getting started. I particularly treasure the photos of two groups of young children who loved the cache. I keep a watch on the cache and refreshed it again when it was muggled.

 

The second, Denton, Former Maryland MML Geotrail GC41191, was one I wanted to find on a trip I was making to this area. The previous owner posted that the cache container was removed temporarily on 3/31/14. A new owner logged accepting responsibility for the cache on 4/01/2014, but there were only DNFs after that. A recent log made it clear that the searcher should have found the cache but it was missing. I visited on 5/29 and left this in the log:

 

"This could have been a DNF, but like the cacher before me, I was confident I had found the hiding place but the box was missing. I placed a temporary cache including a pen, a log book, a hot wheels car, and a TB so that others will be able to find the cache until the original box is returned or replaced. I am sending a photo of the hiding place to the cache owner to confirm that the location is correct."

 

Five cachers logged my temporary cache replacement, mostly travelers who had come to the heart of this little town to find the cache. Finally, on 6/26 she had someone else replace the cache for her. She emailed me that she didn't appreciate having her caches replaced because they were usually hidden wrong, and I sent my photos showing the correct spot. She also deleted the DNF logs. I didn't reply, but I don't appreciate a CO who has so little regard for cachers. If a cache of mine should go missing, I'd appreciate someone who gave it a temporary replacement until I could get back to it.

 

Throwdown is a derogatory term and doesn't apply to every cache replacement.

I will do my best to respectfully disagree with your opinion regarding unsolicited cache replacements (throwdowns), especially by someone who has not previously found the real cache. You didn't find the original cache so you really have no idea if the container was gone or not. I recently did a maintenance run on a cache I own in a nearby State Park. A prior finder posted a note saying it was gone and there was a string of DNF logs before I disabled the cache. My wife and I checked on the cache and I found it about 20 feet further into the woods from the trail where it was supposed to be. I am very thankful the prior finder didn't leave a throwdown in a misguided effort to be helpful. The needs maintenance log that WAS posted alerted me to the problem and allowed me to put things back in order.

 

Every cache "replacement" that is done without the approval of the owner is a throwdown. Every throwdown is a degradation of our game in my opinion. To each their own.

 

+1000

 

You beat me to it. Yes, Bardenl, Throwdown IS a derogatory term, and YES it DOES apply to EVERY cache replacement that is not done by the CO or with the CO's approval (BEFORE being replaced). I archived my first cache (very unique container hidden in a pretty creative way and place) for two reasons. First, the cacher that rehid the container in what they deemed to be a more appropriate place. The next log was the throw down log that I deleted. We had just come back from looking for it to put it back where it belonged with no luck to find a Found it on a cache that wasn't there :mad: . Yeah, that one only lasted a couple months.

 

Thank you. I didn't want to be the bad guy, because if you take a look at Bardeni's profile, you'll easily find she's a sweet older woman, and a couple of people seemed impressed by her impassioned defense of throwdowns. She gave the GC #'s, Did any of you besides me look at the caches? To repeat the term I used in my first post, absolutely classic throwdowns. The first cache she replaced (while claiming a find) was by a 0 find one hide account who hasn't logged in since 2011. She has posted multiple notes "updating the coordinates", and in one even states how she cannot alter the cache page because she is not the cache owner. In this case, the original listing obviously needs to be archived, and her throwdown cache made a new listing.

 

In the 2nd case, the cache went through an adoption just about the time there were several DNF's, and she came along and dropped the replacement container while claiming a find. The new adoptive owner did not like this, told her in no uncertain terms that it wasn't her cache to replace, and had someone else replace the cache. They also deleted the DNF's from when it was missing, although I have no clue why they did that.

 

I think Bardeni is a helpful person, who mentions carring extra swag, pens, and logs in her post, who doesn't realize that replacing wet logs good, throwing down containers bad. :D

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SNIP

 

Thank you. I didn't want to be the bad guy, because if you take a look at Bardeni's profile, you'll easily find she's a sweet older woman, and a couple of people seemed impressed by her impassioned defense of throwdowns. She gave the GC #'s, Did any of you besides me look at the caches? To repeat the term I used in my first post, absolutely classic throwdowns. The first cache she replaced (while claiming a find) was by a 0 find one hide account who hasn't logged in since 2011. She has posted multiple notes "updating the coordinates", and in one even states how she cannot alter the cache page because she is not the cache owner. In this case, the original listing obviously needs to be archived, and her throwdown cache made a new listing.

 

In the 2nd case, the cache went through an adoption just about the time there were several DNF's, and she came along and dropped the replacement container while claiming a find. The new adoptive owner did not like this, told her in no uncertain terms that it wasn't her cache to replace, and had someone else replace the cache. They also deleted the DNF's from when it was missing, although I have no clue why they did that.

 

I think Bardeni is a helpful person, who mentions carring extra swag, pens, and logs in her post, who doesn't realize that replacing wet logs good, throwing down containers bad. :D

 

Yuck, yeah, I checked out the profile. Not trying to sound mean and insensitive, as she does seem like a well intentioned lady, but a deliberate and inappropriate throw down is just that... :anibad:

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Maybe it's just my own experience, but it seems like throwdowns are more often left by those with higher numbers by their names.

I've also noticed that most throwdowns seem to be dropped by very experienced cachers. While that might to some degree suggest that they're numbers oriented, I think it's more often just because they're confident they would find the cache if it were there, and they haven't really thought through the concept of a throwdown far enough to realize it's illogical. I have to admit, I don't often see a DNF that says, "It's clear to me that this cache is missing, and also obvious where it should be, so I replaced it." Comments like that are always posted as Finds.

 

In two examples that I can immediately think of, the original was there and I found it right after someone threw down a replacement.

 

In the first example, the CO deleted the 'found it' log by the guy with over 60k finds.

In the second example (which I've posted about before), the CO (the same CO as the first example) actually thanked the person who threw it down (who had over 20k finds) and let the log stand, though nobody after that point ever found the throwdown!

 

Your second example is quite a ride. The CO's note from 1/16/2014? Throw downs are how power trails are maintained? Really? Wow! Just wow?!?!?! And to read that the CO seems baffled as to why anybody has issues with throw downs absolutely floored me. :blink:

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Thank you. I didn't want to be the bad guy, because if you take a look at Bardeni's profile, you'll easily find she's a sweet older woman, and a couple of people seemed impressed by her impassioned defense of throwdowns. She gave the GC #'s, Did any of you besides me look at the caches? To repeat the term I used in my first post, absolutely classic throwdowns. The first cache she replaced (while claiming a find) was by a 0 find one hide account who hasn't logged in since 2011. She has posted multiple notes "updating the coordinates", and in one even states how she cannot alter the cache page because she is not the cache owner. In this case, the original listing obviously needs to be archived, and her throwdown cache made a new listing.

 

In the 2nd case, the cache went through an adoption just about the time there were several DNF's, and she came along and dropped the replacement container while claiming a find. The new adoptive owner did not like this, told her in no uncertain terms that it wasn't her cache to replace, and had someone else replace the cache. They also deleted the DNF's from when it was missing, although I have no clue why they did that.

 

I think Bardeni is a helpful person, who mentions carring extra swag, pens, and logs in her post, who doesn't realize that replacing wet logs good, throwing down containers bad. :D

 

Yuck, yeah, I checked out the profile. Not trying to sound mean and insensitive, as she does seem like a well intentioned lady, but a deliberate and inappropriate throw down is just that... :anibad:

It depends on how one views the game.

 

For many, the point is simply to get out and have fun. You look for caches and when you find one, you feel like you've accomplishedd something. Perhaps its' the smiley you get for the online log, perhaps its something else. Now caches sometimes go missing. When you look for a missing cache you can't possibly find you don't get that good feeling of accomplishment. Perhaps you even feel 'cheated' because you 'wasted' your time. Now, we know that cache owners are supposed to maintain their cache and replace (or archive) them when they are reported missing. But, this is a game and life gets in the way. Some cache owner leave the game altogether, others simply just don't have the time to run out everytime their is a DNF. So some cachers see an opportunity to help out others. They help the cache owner by replacing the missing cache and savine the cache owner that maintenance trip. They help out other cachers by ensuring their is a cache to find, so they don't 'waste' their time looking for an impossible to find. As to whether they should log this as find, my guess is that many people don't actually view the smiley as a score. Since they have left a replacement, it doesn't make sense to leave the cache 'unfound'. The find log not only takes this off the list but tells others that the cache is no longer missing.

 

The question often arises as to how the person leaving the throwdown can be so sure the cache is missing and needs to be replaced. For the people leaving a throwdown, you don't have to be 100% certain. They use their judgement and experience finding caches to make their best guess. If the cache is still there, they are convinced that people will have fun finding either the original cache or the throwdown. Eventually someone may find both caches and decide to remove one. While I haven't seen people leaving throwdowns putting these caches on a watchlist, I suspect that some might and they might even change their find to a DNF if the original shows up.

 

Others take a different view. The point of the game for them is to find caches. You either find a cache or you don't. They view the smiley you get for a find as the prize you get for finding a cache. And a DNF as not a failure or a waste of time, but simply a statement of fact. So when someone posts a find for leaving a throwdown they tend to get upset. While one may post a Needs Maintenance or even Needs Archive, if they feel the cache is likely missing, this often takes a long time to resolve and in the meatime there is still no cache to find.

 

Many also view the game as one of cache owners creating a special experience for searchers. If they find a replacement instead of the original cache, they may feel they have been denied the experience the owner had intended for them; and if they are the owner of the cache, they may feel that instead of helping the throwdown has interfered with the experience they were trying to share. I refer to this as genericizing caches. Leaving a throwdown is a statement that cache finds are generic: you don't have know exactly how the orginal cache was hidden or how the container was camouflaged, the next finder will get the generic find experience either way.

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It depends on how one views the game.

 

For many, the point is simply to get out and have fun. You look for caches and when you find one, you feel like you've accomplishedd something. Perhaps its' the smiley you get for the online log, perhaps its something else. Now caches sometimes go missing. When you look for a missing cache you can't possibly find you don't get that good feeling of accomplishment. Perhaps you even feel 'cheated' because you 'wasted' your time. Now, we know that cache owners are supposed to maintain their cache and replace (or archive) them when they are reported missing. But, this is a game and life gets in the way. Some cache owner leave the game altogether, others simply just don't have the time to run out everytime their is a DNF. So some cachers see an opportunity to help out others. They help the cache owner by replacing the missing cache and savine the cache owner that maintenance trip. They help out other cachers by ensuring their is a cache to find, so they don't 'waste' their time looking for an impossible to find. As to whether they should log this as find, my guess is that many people don't actually view the smiley as a score. Since they have left a replacement, it doesn't make sense to leave the cache 'unfound'. The find log not only takes this off the list but tells others that the cache is no longer missing.

 

The question often arises as to how the person leaving the throwdown can be so sure the cache is missing and needs to be replaced. For the people leaving a throwdown, you don't have to be 100% certain. They use their judgement and experience finding caches to make their best guess. If the cache is still there, they are convinced that people will have fun finding either the original cache or the throwdown. Eventually someone may find both caches and decide to remove one. While I haven't seen people leaving throwdowns putting these caches on a watchlist, I suspect that some might and they might even change their find to a DNF if the original shows up.

 

Others take a different view. The point of the game for them is to find caches. You either find a cache or you don't. They view the smiley you get for a find as the prize you get for finding a cache. And a DNF as not a failure or a waste of time, but simply a statement of fact. So when someone posts a find for leaving a throwdown they tend to get upset. While one may post a Needs Maintenance or even Needs Archive, if they feel the cache is likely missing, this often takes a long time to resolve and in the meatime there is still no cache to find.

 

Many also view the game as one of cache owners creating a special experience for searchers. If they find a replacement instead of the original cache, they may feel they have been denied the experience the owner had intended for them; and if they are the owner of the cache, they may feel that instead of helping the throwdown has interfered with the experience they were trying to share. I refer to this as genericizing caches. Leaving a throwdown is a statement that cache finds are generic: you don't have know exactly how the orginal cache was hidden or how the container was camouflaged, the next finder will get the generic find experience either way.

 

I tend to side with the view in your last paragraph, though I know not all do and I'm fine with that. Some caches are put out as a general find type of cache. My post further up the page about a themed ammo can being stolen and then later replaced by another "finder" with a magnetic micro is a good example of the type of hides I rather enjoy (not the replacement, but the original). I proudly DNF'd the magnetic and waited for the CO to replace the original as I wanted to experience the theme and point behind their original hide as it was also the oldest hide in my county.

 

After much hesitation due to my only other caches being abused, I'm working on and planning a themed series that is far from generic. Yes, at least one of the containers will be a simple pill bottle due to constraints and respect for where it will be hidden, but the series will have a specific point and message that I hope to convey.

 

Although, going against my initial feelings about the topic, I plan to make these PM only, if any portion or part of this series was simply and unceremoniously replaced with a throw down, I would take offense to it and without hesitation delete the Found It log for such along with both a PM to the throw downer and a note to the cache page explaining why.

 

It may be incidental, but the cache page and description will include the above explanation and the actions to follow along with links to guidelines. I realize it may or may not help.

 

I firmly believe a throw down or replacement without EXPLICIT and express permission from the CO is disrespectful in MOST cases.

Edited by jwmoe1973
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