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You may think you have found a geocache...


Mrs. Mumble

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Dear Geocaching community,

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE know the difference between a letterbox and a geocache. Letterboxes are usually CLEARLY marked as letterboxes with instructions for use, and they have RUBBER STAMPS inside. DO NOT TAKE THE RUBBER STAMP. Too many of our letterboxes are being vandalized lately, probably by ignorant geocachers thinking they have found their geocache. (This is assumed because rubber stamps go missing and Cracker Jack toys are in their place) If you find a rubber stamp in a box it is not the geocache you are looking for and you should not take the rubber stamp as if it is a trinket. Letterboxers put a lot of time into carving those stamps for other letterboxers to enjoy and return to the box. It is very frustrating when we have to re-carve a stamp that has gone missing. We find your geocaches all the time and most of us (that I know) try hard not to poach your territory and we re-hide your caches well and are respectful of your own hobby. I realize there may be exceptions and I'm sorry if you've run into that, but there has been a really bad bout lately of rubber stamps going missing from letterboxes so I wanted to send a shout out to remind and inform you all that a rubber stamp is not a cheap toy you can trade or take. Someone put time and effort into that stamp so it could be enjoyed by everyone who finds the box.

Thank you for listening.

Mrs. Mumble, Letterboxer

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Geocachers are typically aware of letterboxes as well. I'm sorry your stamps have gone missing, and it could happen from a geocacher, but I hope that is not the case.

 

We have also had a run of geocaches going missing and swag degradation, but I don't blame it on the letterboxers.

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Dear Geocaching community,

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE know the difference between a letterbox and a geocache. Letterboxes are usually CLEARLY marked as letterboxes with instructions for use, and they have RUBBER STAMPS inside. DO NOT TAKE THE RUBBER STAMP. Too many of our letterboxes are being vandalized lately, probably by ignorant geocachers thinking they have found their geocache. (This is assumed because rubber stamps go missing and Cracker Jack toys are in their place) If you find a rubber stamp in a box it is not the geocache you are looking for and you should not take the rubber stamp as if it is a trinket. Letterboxers put a lot of time into carving those stamps for other letterboxers to enjoy and return to the box. It is very frustrating when we have to re-carve a stamp that has gone missing. We find your geocaches all the time and most of us (that I know) try hard not to poach your territory and we re-hide your caches well and are respectful of your own hobby. I realize there may be exceptions and I'm sorry if you've run into that, but there has been a really bad bout lately of rubber stamps going missing from letterboxes so I wanted to send a shout out to remind and inform you all that a rubber stamp is not a cheap toy you can trade or take. Someone put time and effort into that stamp so it could be enjoyed by everyone who finds the box.

Thank you for listening.

Mrs. Mumble, Letterboxer

 

I am a letterboxer and a geocacher and have a unique perspective because of this. About a year ago, someone who HAD placed a geocache and knew what the rules were decided to place a letterbox only 15 feet away from one of my caches that had been in place for many years. Talk about major problems, and it wasn't the geocachers fault for signing the wrong log since they thought they were finding the cache at the posted coordinates. The owner of the letterbox (who is also a geocacher) ignored all communication from me.

 

We don't have an overload of letterboxes in my town, and most are a good distance from geocaches. But if you are aware of a geocache, do NOT place a letterbox close to it!!

 

A couple of years ago in Santa Barbara we were looking for a geocache, and found the PERFECT hiding spot and what we thought was the container. Except, it wasn't a geocache, it was a letterbox (20 from the geocache coordinates), and I seemed to be the first to locate it. A year later we still could not find the letterbox listed on ANY SITE. I wish whoever placed it would either have listed it on a site or removed the container to avoid problems with the geocache.

 

I feel your pain. As a letterboxer and geocacher I see both sides of this, and more often than not the geocacher just isn't aware of letterboxes. I have spent quite some time educating my friends who have been very confused on the issue (with the letterbox that was placed close to my cache).

 

As you mentioned, I think the best defense is a CLEARLY written note right inside the letterbox that says "THIS IS NOT A GEOCACHE."

 

Thank you for your post. It's always good to spread the word and inform.

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We find your geocaches all the time and most of us (that I know) try hard not to poach your territory and we re-hide your caches well and are respectful of your own hobby.

 

We find your letter boxes also, and most of us do respect your game. I truly believe if it is geocachers taking the stamps, it is out of ignorance,

 

Not sure what can be done to completely stop new cachers from mistaking a stamp for a trade item. I know for myself I will try to inform new cachers about letterboxes. Perhaps those putting out letterboxes could try to identifiy their stamps as part of a letterbox.

 

There will always be some who don't care about others, but we can try to work to inform those who do care. Maybe things like this will be less likely to happen.

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So this afternoon, instead of going geocaching (gasp) I went and found a letterbox series. :)

 

It was fun. If I didn't have so many more geocaches to go get, I could become an avid letterboxer. But for now, I still prefer geocaches, but I have another option for variety - like strawberry ice cream :mmraspberry:

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My first letterbox was placed within a few feet of a geocache. I had no way of knowing there was a geocache nearby. If the geocache is well-hidden, as it should be, then we don't know where they are and it's impossible to know if there is one near. Luckily, my brother (who is a geocacher) found my letterbox while he was looking for the geocache. I labeled the container "LETTERBOX" in large letters and left a note in the box about letterboxing. I put "THIS IS NOT A GEOCACHE. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING OR LEAVE ANYTHING" in large capital letters both in the note and on the container. Before I could get back to move the box, the stamp that I spent hours carving was gone and in it's place was a cheap plastic bracelet.

 

So, what is the solution here?

We have no way of knowing where your geocaches are, so it's impossible to avoid them.

We label the box.

We put notes in the box.

What else can we do?

 

Oh, and by the way, I've only been letterboxing since September of this year, but in the last 8 months, I have found 4 letterboxes missing and geocaches put in their place. Exactly in their place... as in, one of them was exactly behind the third brick on a bridge. I've also found 3 letterboxes vandalized and the stamp stolen. 2 of these had cheap swag placed in the boxes in place of the stamp. All of them were labeled and included a card with the URL of the letterboxing website.

 

There are several letterboxes that have simply gone missing. I do not blame the geocachers for this. It happens. A kid finds the box, someone who thinks it's trash throws it away, it gets carried away by animals, people steal them for whatever reason. BUT... when only the stamp is gone and a cheap trinket is left in it's place, what are we to think?

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This is in all my letterboxes:

 

THIS IS A LETTERBOX

 

This box you found is part of a world wide treasure hunting game called Letterboxing. Inside, you should find a rubber stamp and a logbook. Feel free to sign the logbook, but please return the letterbox where you found it, well-hidden from view.

 

THIS IS NOT A GEOCACHE!

TAKE NOTHING FROM THIS BOX!

LEAVE NOTHING!

THIS IS NOT A GEOCACHE!!

 

Please do not disturb it, and leave it exactly as you found it.

 

To learn more about letterboxing or how to participate, visit http://www.atlasquest.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... and still the stamp gets stolen and swag left in it's place!

Edited by flyawayprairie
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My first letterbox was placed within a few feet of a geocache. I had no way of knowing there was a geocache nearby.

 

... in the last 8 months, I have found 4 letterboxes missing and geocaches put in their place. Exactly in their place...

 

There are several letterboxes that have simply gone missing. I do not blame the geocachers for this. It happens. A kid finds the box, someone who thinks it's trash throws it away, it gets carried away by animals, people steal them for whatever reason. BUT... when only the stamp is gone and a cheap trinket is left in it's place, what are we to think?

I agree with what you have said here (but only quoted the most relevant parts). I have become a bit of a Letterbox detective myself lately. If you think it's hard for a Letterboxer to figure out where a Geocache has previously been "planted", try walking in our flip-flops. It's a Herculean task for a Geocacher to figure out where a Letterbox has previously been planted. Sure, we are "competing" for the same real estate, and occasionally bump into each others game. I think we do have the much bigger problem of uneducated newbies, but I do not personally know one experienced Geocacher that would not treat a Letterbox with respect. I agree that in our zeal to bring new players to the game, we do not educate them properly. But I suspect they really don't want a lot of rules. They just want to find treasure. The same "complaint" you have about missing stamps, we have about missing Coins and Travel Bugs (and it's not Leterboxers taking them). Education is the key here, but we have no centralized "training" program. We just have to try to do better.

 

I don't want to get into fine details here, but Letterboxers are not totally without sin in these box hiding games. How many of your missing Letterboxes have been illegally slipped into a location where there are permit requirements? WITHOUT the benefit of a permit? MANY of you just ignore your own rules in permit required locations. In a perfect world we would all just get along. We would leave your stamps alone and you would follow your own rules. Neither is going to happen over night.

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Ughghh... just lost a huge long reply.....argh.

 

I am also a letterboxer and geocacher. I have 11 geocaches. I also have 11 letterboxes... I am spreading the love and educating about letterboxing by planting geocache letterbox hybrids. I point people to both websites. I've gotten great reviews from cachers (fave points) and letterboxers (2 blue diamonds and one purple diamond that I'm extremely proud of). I enjoy the artistic aspect of letterboxing, particularly making the artist trading cards, which is a sidebranch of letterboxing that geocaching does not have.

 

I hope that some cachers would try letterboxing, and please do make some more letterbox/geocache hybrids. You can combine clues as long as GPS use is an integral part of the hunt (ask your reviewer for his/her personal take on this or email me or Lone R or some of the other hybrid makers). Most of the cachers who find my hybrids have never seen a hybrid and don't read the directions properly on how to locate the box. But they do enjoy the stamp and the clues, once they have figured it out. I add a series of letterboxes to be found after the geocache hybrid to further educate and try to attract artistic and interested geocachers to letterboxing.

 

It would be great to combine the creative hide and camoflage techniques found in geocaching, with the creative stamps and clues found in letterboxing.... this is something that I've had a hard time melding... and getting people from both sides to appreciate... but I'm up for the challenge.

 

We do the best we can do...

 

Personally, I think those that take the stamps.....ARE NOT READING THIS>>>>> they are newbies and/or kids who just hunt and take...geocoins, swag, travelbugs, ammo cans, letterbox stamps...whatever they want. Most cachers I meet at events and talk to on these boards are pretty well aware of letterboxing.

 

I welcome any cachers who want to come find my letterboxes... I am pretty sure you will love them. I'm in the Tampa Bay area... FloridaFour on Atlasquest. check it out if you're interested... come over to the art side... hey we also do artist trading cards... using the stamped images we make... we trade them in the mail and in person... it's a great offshoot for the artistic and for bad weather or health times.... ok, back in my corner I go...thanks for reading...

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My first letterbox was placed within a few feet of a geocache. I had no way of knowing there was a geocache nearby. If the geocache is well-hidden, as it should be, then we don't know where they are and it's impossible to know if there is one near.

 

I do not agree with your statement. It is most definitely possible to find out where geocaches are. In fact, tens of thousands of people all over the world find them every day, based on coordinates given on the website. You won't know where puzzle and multi caches are hidden without solving or working them out, but for MOST caches, you CAN determine what is hidden in an area. Same with puzzle type letterboxes: until you solve the puzzle, you won't know where the letterbox is (we have a local one that is a challenge!).

Edited by Max and 99
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Two possible solutions come to mind immediately. 1) Attach the stamp to the container with a small chain or computer-lock cable. 2) Construct containers where the stamp is incorporated into the container -- maybe built-in to the lid or part of a stamping machine that is attached to the container.

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My name is Connfederate and I'm a ... Letterboxer. :o

 

My few 'cache finds have been serendipitous, stumbled upon them while hunting 'boxes! So I registered here. A bonus to registering here is that I can look for 'caches in or near areas where I want to plant a 'box (multi's excepted...) I have left notes in the logs of 'caches I've found, and I have a few 'cachers' notes in my 'box logbooks, too. IME, most experienced 'cachers are aware of "the other hobby", as are most experienced 'boxers. FWIW, I discovered Letterboxing while exploring Geocaching on a GoogleTM dumpster-dive. ;-)

 

I've seen where 'cachers have poached 'box sites and vice-versa. In fact, one 'box I found was placed IN a geocache! I thought that was rude. Noobs in both hobbies cause problems for 'cache/'box owners on the other side of the aisle out of exuberance and ignorance. There is no reason that Geocaches and Letterboxes can't co-exist. I've seen where they do--'cache or 'box on!

 

Respectfully,

Connfederate

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This is a tough issue, especially because few read the forums.

 

I learned about letterboxing through the hybrids. There are not that many around though. Getting people to create more is a great idea. Perhaps I'll look into it.

 

I think attaching the stamp to the box is a good idea.

Also, try putting, "DONT TAKE THE STAMP" in the hint. Geocachers almost always read the hint. (for the hybrids)

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Long time geocacher, and I just recently tried a few letterboxes too.

 

One thing I noticed, and I don't have a solution. All the boxes/stamps that I found, the stamp is wrapped up in a wad of paper towel.

Now I realize this is because they are inky, but I can easily see how that could look like a bit of trash and get accidentally thrown away.

Plus it is not going to fare well when that container fails and gets full of water.

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.....

We have no way of knowing where your geocaches are, so it's impossible to avoid them

......

 

not impossible... Most caches will show up if search the GC.Com website for a cache near your letterbox then open the map of that area. All you'll miss are puzzle caches and multi cache stages. Since letterboxes are essentially puzzle caches it is nearly impossible for us to know where they might be hidden.

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I was a letterboxer for years and just got started with geocaching recently. Because I believe that both the hunting, the value of the location, and the clever container hides are shared elements of both activities, I've decided that there's no point in me planting anything other than a geocache/letterbox hybrid from now on (whenever possible). Since my plants are now / will be hybrids, I will always have the issue of geocachers constantly finding my stamp. I've written that this is both a geocache and a letterbox, and not to take the stamp, on the geocaching.com listing and on the container, and on the log in sheet. So far my experience has been that only one person ever read any of those warnings. So warning are still suggested but they are extremely ineffective as most people don't read anything you write.

 

To avoid this problem from even mattering I simply made it impossible to take the stamp without deliberate malice intent. For the only hybrid I've planted so far, my stamp is bolted down to the lid of the small cache container. You'd have to steal the whole cache to take the stamp. In another one I'm working on now, it will be attached to the inside of the container by a thin metal cord (which requires me to mount my stamp on a wooden "handle" but that's actually a nice touch anyway).

 

The burden of checking for other containers in the area is on BOTH geocachers and letterboxers.

 

I don't expect most letterboxers to tie down their stamps as I suggest, but if you knowingly plant your box anywhere near a geocache then you can't be surprised when your stamp goes missing and a dinky trinket is found in it's place. If you're not within 50 yards of a geocache then none of this should be an issue for you anyway. The only thing out of a letterboxer's control would be if your letterbox was there first and a geocacher came by and unknowingly planted a cache next to your box. For that, I'd suggest EVERY geocacher should ALWAYS check AtlasQuest.com first to check that you're not the one causing problems for others. The geocacher has nothing to lose while a letterboxer does, so it would just be rude for you to plant a geocache without first checking for existing letterboxes that may already be in the area.

Edited by Fife Club
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The geocacher has nothing to lose while a letterboxer does, so it would just be rude for you to plant a geocache without first checking for existing letterboxes that may already be in the area.

 

I most certainly beg to differ!

 

Please keep in mind that there is more than one letterboxing listing sites, and same for geocaching.

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The geocacher has nothing to lose while a letterboxer does, so it would just be rude for you to plant a geocache without first checking for existing letterboxes that may already be in the area.

 

I most certainly beg to differ!

 

Please keep in mind that there is more than one letterboxing listing sites, and same for geocaching.

Thank You Max for taking just a little bit of the edge off of what I was going to say after reading that, but I still have plenty to say. I am not a letterbox expert, but I have been trying to learn. We have a nearby DCNR property. It has become quite burdensome to place a legal Geocache there without paying a $25 fee (I'm still working on it). I had bumped into some Letterbox clues online several years ago, and unsuccessfully tried tracking them down to find the associated Box. I eventually found out that in the course of following the confusing (to me) clues I had walked right past it without spotting the final clue. How do I know that. 5 years later when my interest in Letterboxing had been rekindled, I accidentally stumbled on what I had missed earlier. Talk about a belated Ah-Ha moment.

 

What did rekindle my interest? A combination of events. At some point after my initial unsuccessful letterbox quest, I accidentally stumbled on an actual Letterbox container (I guess I spend a lot of time wandering around there). I looked around online trying to track down the clues for it, but that was confusing and also unsuccessful. Then the DCNR introduced that $25 fee I mentioned earlier. It got me to wondering just how many Letterboxes had been slipped in there on the sly over the years. I redoubled my efforts to locate Letterbox clues and their associated containers. This time I came away with a much better education.

 

As noted by Max, just like Caching, there is more than one Letterbox site. But Geocaching.com is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. There however seem to be two equally viable Letterbox sites. And then there are the privately listed clues. And then there are the clues that are not listed anywhere, but are instead passed on by word of mouth. And there are the clues which do not include the name of the public location where they were planted. They instead have wording referring perhaps to the past history of the place. Only a history aware local would recognize or track down the general location clue, if they were able to circumvent the subterfuge and track it down in the first place. Then there are the clever planters that do include the location name, but spell it backward to disguise it. And in the case I mentioned above, there are Bonus Boxes. You have to track down a different Box to get the clues for the Bonus Box. Then you might track down that Box and are informed that the clues are really in yet another Box (which I have not been able to locate yet).

 

OK. Now I have done the work and have clues that were written several years earlier (and most showing no sign of ever having been updated). They might reference various height tree stumps. Fallen remnants of trees. Signs and trail markers. The number of downspouts on a building. Whatever. Anything. We have violent wind storms, rain storms, snow storms etc here. Things change. With a Geocache, every tree in DCNR’s 600 + acres could be laid flat, and I can still be sure I am close to it. It might be under one of those trees, but at least I would know I was close. With Letterboxing your most recently logged find might be years old, and a very valuable clue might now be totally gone or unrecognizable. How do you propose to get past that obstacle? Or how about the rude geocacher that has to figure out that "netless" is an old abandoned basketball hoop (sans net). And it's not at a court or even a prepared surface. Just a bit of a clearing with nothing else around it except trees now. Rude? Really? Wow. Just wow. Geocachers must have super powers in your view of the world. And a final note to “Fife Club”. If I have misrepresented anything about your game here, please invoke total “Kandor” to refute it. Just don’t plant any Kryptonite near me.

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I certainly wouldn't expect anybody to spend more than two minutes to take a quick look at one website. There are more than one geocaching websites but geocaching.com is the one and only that has more that +90% of the cache listings. Similarly, letterboxing has more than one website but AtlasQuest.com is the one and only that has +90% of the letterbox listings. In less than two minutes you can easily glance at the map on AtlasQuest to exactly where 90% of the letterboxes are located - including GPS coordinates. It's that easy. [sample map link] (letterboxing.org is ancient history, unpopular and without a mapping interface so don't worry about that one. Many of the ones on letterboxing.org are cross-listed on AtlasQuest too anyway.)

 

You wrote about struggling to follow instructions to find some caches. Just like there are some "mystery caches" where the exact location isn't revealed on the geocaching.com map, there are also some (not many) letterboxes that you similarly need to figure out the box's real location. But that's very few of them, and just like I wouldn't expect letterboxers to solve every mystery cache in town just to make sure there are no geocaches nearby, I also wouldn't expect any geocachers to solve every Mystery Letterbox (I forgot what they're actually called) on AtlasQuest.com.

 

All I was suggesting is that people take a quick two-minute glance at a map on AtlasQuest.com and see if there are any letterboxes known to be in the spot that they're planning to put a geocache. Only AtlasQuest - that will quickly give you the exact location of more than 90% of all letterboxes out there. If a general letterbox location is too difficult to find from a quick glancing search, you certainly can't be blamed for accidentally placing a geocache near one that you didn't even know existed.

Edited by Fife Club
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OK Fife Club. I would like to put your online Letterboxing skills to the test. Here is a link to my very first hide (now archived) on that DCNR property.

http://coord.info/GCQGK5

 

I understand it was a mystery. Just pretend it was a traditional placed at the listed cache page coords. Take a week if you like. Give me as much detail as you can find online about any Letterbox plants on that 600+ acre property that I should have known about before placing a cache at: N 40° 16.795 W 075° 57.550

 

This is your opportunity to educate us.

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OK Fife Club. I would like to put your online Letterboxing skills to the test. Here is a link to my very first hide (now archived) on that DCNR property.

http://coord.info/GCQGK5

 

I understand it was a mystery. Just pretend it was a traditional placed at the listed cache page coords. Take a week if you like. Give me as much detail as you can find online about any Letterbox plants on that 600+ acre property that I should have known about before placing a cache at: N 40° 16.795 W 075° 57.550

 

This is your opportunity to educate us.

 

OK. Here's the area map. At first I was going to search for Reading, PA but instead I entered the GPS coordinates of your cache as the search query. After zooming in I see one letterbox in the park called Angelica's Angels. That letterbox's AtlasQuest page is here and the clue is located here. Didn't even take me a full minute.

 

Now I'm betting that you're going to tell me about more letterboxes within the park that aren't listed. There very well may be. 7 boxes in the Reading, PA area are "Mystery Boxes" where the exact location is not revealed (a higher % than most areas I've seen before). But who cares? If you know there are more boxes in that park it is completely besides the point. My point is that it took 1 minute to do a quick and easy check. I never claimed it was a foolproof system, but if you check and you do happen to see a letterbox right where you were going to plant a geocache, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT, which is the whole point. If you check and a box didn't show up, then at least you checked.

 

Seriously, why in the world is there such a pushback on taking 1 minute to check for a possibly blatant overlap, that could affect both containers in the area. (And only one of which would be completely destroyed by having a hand-carved piece of artwork taken accidentally.)

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OK Fife Club. I would like to put your online Letterboxing skills to the test. Here is a link to my very first hide (now archived) on that DCNR property.

http://coord.info/GCQGK5

 

I understand it was a mystery. Just pretend it was a traditional placed at the listed cache page coords. Take a week if you like. Give me as much detail as you can find online about any Letterbox plants on that 600+ acre property that I should have known about before placing a cache at: N 40° 16.795 W 075° 57.550

 

This is your opportunity to educate us.

 

OK. Here's the area map. At first I was going to search for Reading, PA but instead I entered the GPS coordinates of your cache as the search query. After zooming in I see one letterbox in the park called Angelica's Angels. That letterbox's AtlasQuest page is here and the clue is located here. Didn't even take me a full minute.

 

Now I'm betting that you're going to tell me about more letterboxes within the park that aren't listed. There very well may be. 7 boxes in the Reading, PA area are "Mystery Boxes" where the exact location is not revealed (a higher % than most areas I've seen before). But who cares? If you know there are more boxes in that park it is completely besides the point. My point is that it took 1 minute to do a quick and easy check. I never claimed it was a foolproof system, but if you check and you do happen to see a letterbox right where you were going to plant a geocache, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT, which is the whole point. If you check and a box didn't show up, then at least you checked.

 

Seriously, why in the world is there such a pushback on taking 1 minute to check for a possibly blatant overlap, that could affect both containers in the area. (And only one of which would be completely destroyed by having a hand-carved piece of artwork taken accidentally.)

Quite impressive. All that in 1 minute? Lets see how you did. You did NOT identify even one of the 11 Boxes I have found in NOLDE FOREST. You did not identify even one of the roughly half dozen Boxes I am still looking for in NOLDE FOREST. What you did identify is a Box that is in ANGELICA PARK. You could not even identify the correct property. I am now 100% satisfied that I was right all along. That AtlasQuest does not have the sophisticated location tools you suggested they have, unless you were suggesting that Geocachers should give any possible Letterbox a buffer zone of several miles. That's not gonna happen. Your turn.

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OK Fife Club. I would like to put your online Letterboxing skills to the test. Here is a link to my very first hide (now archived) on that DCNR property.

http://coord.info/GCQGK5

 

I understand it was a mystery. Just pretend it was a traditional placed at the listed cache page coords. Take a week if you like. Give me as much detail as you can find online about any Letterbox plants on that 600+ acre property that I should have known about before placing a cache at: N 40° 16.795 W 075° 57.550

 

This is your opportunity to educate us.

 

OK. Here's the area map. At first I was going to search for Reading, PA but instead I entered the GPS coordinates of your cache as the search query. After zooming in I see one letterbox in the park called Angelica's Angels. That letterbox's AtlasQuest page is here and the clue is located here. Didn't even take me a full minute.

 

Now I'm betting that you're going to tell me about more letterboxes within the park that aren't listed. There very well may be. 7 boxes in the Reading, PA area are "Mystery Boxes" where the exact location is not revealed (a higher % than most areas I've seen before). But who cares? If you know there are more boxes in that park it is completely besides the point. My point is that it took 1 minute to do a quick and easy check. I never claimed it was a foolproof system, but if you check and you do happen to see a letterbox right where you were going to plant a geocache, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT, which is the whole point. If you check and a box didn't show up, then at least you checked.

 

Seriously, why in the world is there such a pushback on taking 1 minute to check for a possibly blatant overlap, that could affect both containers in the area. (And only one of which would be completely destroyed by having a hand-carved piece of artwork taken accidentally.)

Quite impressive. All that in 1 minute? Lets see how you did. You did NOT identify even one of the 11 Boxes I have found in NOLDE FOREST. You did not identify even one of the roughly half dozen Boxes I am still looking for in NOLDE FOREST. What you did identify is a Box that is in ANGELICA PARK. You could not even identify the correct property. I am now 100% satisfied that I was right all along. That AtlasQuest does not have the sophisticated location tools you suggested they have, unless you were suggesting that Geocachers should give any possible Letterbox a buffer zone of several miles. That's not gonna happen. Your turn.

 

You proved absolutely nothing at all other than your ability to attack others and be a troll. The map I showed is of the exact same location and even says "Nolde Forest State Park" right on it, so I obviously DO have the exact same correct area. As far why a million boxes in that park didn't show up, the answer is completely obvious. You said it yourself. The park doesn't allow caches/boxes to be planted on state park property without paying a fee. The owner(s) obviously don't have the boxes listed because they didn't want to pay the fees for each box and they didn't want the park rangers to find them. Duh!

 

There are obviously going to be exceptions like this one but what I said is still right in most cases. You having an unusual case doesn't disprove anything. I'm so very sorry that the burden of geocaching sucks so bad for you in this particular park that you feel you need to fight viciously against somebody who's just trying to give helpful, simple, easy, practical, and normally effective advice that will help avoid problems for both geocachers and letterboxers 90% of the time. You don't need to put other people's caches/boxes in jeopardy out of selfish spite because my advice just happened to hot help your particular situation of the park not freely allowing caches/boxes to be planted on their property - an issue that you already knew about before you started flaming.

Edited by Fife Club
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Copied from your own Letterbox link to: Angelica Angel

Park on the northeast side of the parking lot at Angelica Park off of Route 10....

Location: Angelica Park, Reading, PA

 

My commentary:

Center to center, Nolde Forest (off of Route 625) and Angelica Park (off of Route 10) are about 3 miles apart. You missed your mark by 3 miles, and because I am calling you on it I am a troll and a flamer. Education requires facts, not wild stories. Find a Letterboxer local to me (the owner of Angelica Angel might be a good place to look) that can disprove one word that I have posted to this "educational" thread. Here Is Janilla's Geocaching Profile in case you can't find it on a Letterboxing site. Attempt contact through that, or just keep throwing out random inaccurate statements.

 

I don't know her. I have never communicated with her. I have only read her blogs and logs. But as a self advertised avid Letterboxer, perhaps you will believe her if she tells you that you are wrong.

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Copied from your own Letterbox link to: Angelica Angel

Park on the northeast side of the parking lot at Angelica Park off of Route 10....

Location: Angelica Park, Reading, PA

 

My commentary:

Center to center, Nolde Forest (off of Route 625) and Angelica Park (off of Route 10) are about 3 miles apart. You missed your mark by 3 miles, and because I am calling you on it I am a troll and a flamer. Education requires facts, not wild stories. Find a Letterboxer local to me (the owner of Angelica Angel might be a good place to look) that can disprove one word that I have posted to this "educational" thread. Here Is Janilla's Geocaching Profile in case you can't find it on a Letterboxing site. Attempt contact through that, or just keep throwing out random inaccurate statements.

 

I don't know her. I have never communicated with her. I have only read her blogs and logs. But as a self advertised avid Letterboxer, perhaps you will believe her if she tells you that you are wrong.

 

I stand by absolutely everything I said, including the fact that you are a troll. The only mistake I made was not zooming in far enough when I saw that only one letterbox was showing up near that park. Not realizing the scale of the park, I looked at the top of the pin head instead of the bottom where the pin goes in. mapsearchresults2012062.png(That's a Google Maps icon so it has nothing to do with AtlasQuest.com). Big freaking deal. As is the definition of a troll, you've been arguing over trivial details like that mistake, which is completely irrelevant to my point and everything else I've been saying. It is absolutely ridiculous that you could possibly think everything I said is automatically incorrect because one little part of my statement couldn't be proven 100% without calling upon innocent letterboxers to flame them too. We had the same situation near me several years ago where a state park started charging for letterboxes and there were many discussions on it, which is why I know for a fact that people often just unlist their boxes in areas that suddenly dissallow geocaching and letterboxing in the area. Is it possible that's not what happened in rural PA? Sure it is. I'm not wasting months of my time researching your trivial problems. Whatever the reason turns out to be, it doesn't disprove anything I said about taking 1 minute to accurately check for the vast majority of letterboxes in an area by checking one website. Your logic of false burdens of proof on a side story (the fact that Angelica Park isn't in NFSP) to discredit the main argument is literally insane, again at the expense of others who don't share your unique exceptions. I have better things to do than to engage in flame wars with a troll. [ya try to help people and some jerk ruins it for everybody else]. Unsubscribe!

 

Oh P.S. - when did I claim to be an avid letterboxer? I found about a dozen in total, years ago. Maybe because you made one false assumption I can claim the "win" (as you called it) and say that every single thing YOU said was 100% false. Ridiculous.

Edited by Fife Club
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I'm both a letterboxer and geocacher (mostly a letterboxer) and I don't think either group has a requirement to check for the other group's hides. If you are a letterboxer that is concerned about being too close to a geocache, then by all means check geocaching.com for an idea of where the geocaches are, and most people now do have a gps of some sort (phone, car) that can help find any cache that might be in the area. Sometimes you don't even need a gps receiver.

 

I do think that the vast majority of both geocachers and letterboxers are very respectful and cause no problems. It's generally the newbies that cause problems. And of course every hobbie has its share of jerks that in no way reflect the majority. I do fault geocaching.com for not doing a better job of educating new geocachers about not taking letterbox stamps out of something that looks like a geocache. Because geocaching is much more popular than letterboxing, I think new letterboxers almost always know about geocaching when they start letterboxing, but the reverse is not true.

 

There is no easy way to attach a hand-carved stamp to the letterbox, directly or via a string or it would have already been done. Stamp backings tend to make the stamp not give a good impression out in the field, and they make the stamp bigger, which means you need a larger container, which is more expensive and difficult to hide. It's interesting that someone might think a stamp is garbage if it's wrapped in paper towel. I wrap my in felt, but many are in fact wrapped in paper towels. I also write "not a trade item" on my stamp.

 

It would be a nice gesture if both geocachers and letterboxers who notice there is a letterbox near a geocache that many people are finding (based on the logs) try and contact the letterbox owner. That is not always easy, but if you happen to find the letterbox, there might be contact info inside or the name of the letterbox. Or you can just go to atlasquest.com and post a note on a discussion board that says, "FYI, There is a letterbox near Cache #xxx that is getting found by geocachers. I don't know which one, but someone might want to contact the owner so they are aware." Letterboxers will handle it from there. Many letterboxers would move their box if they knew it was being found by geocachers.

 

And finally I'll note that sometimes hiding places migrate. If a letterbox and geocache are on top of each other, one or both may actually be in the wrong spot.

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Wow! It is a bit unnerving to be reading a thread and all of a sudden see myself in it. I have to agree that my Angelica Angel is nowhere near Nolde Forest and that about 40 caches could be legally placed between my box and Nolde. I also think that doing a "quick" search on Atlas Quest to find boxes in an area where a geocacher might want to place a cache could not be accomplished in one minute. And I also have to say that I am totally unaware of a $25 fee to place a letterbox or a geocache in Nolde. I have really scaled down my letterboxing in the past couple of years and most of my remaining boxes have been around for a long time so rules and regulations may have changed since I first placed my boxes. If Nolde charges now to place boxes and caches, I will be removing mine from the area ASAP. Thanks for the information.

 

Janila

 

OK Fife Club. I would like to put your online Letterboxing skills to the test. Here is a link to my very first hide (now archived) on that DCNR property.

http://coord.info/GCQGK5

 

I understand it was a mystery. Just pretend it was a traditional placed at the listed cache page coords. Take a week if you like. Give me as much detail as you can find online about any Letterbox plants on that 600+ acre property that I should have known about before placing a cache at: N 40° 16.795 W 075° 57.550

 

This is your opportunity to educate us.

 

OK. Here's the area map. At first I was going to search for Reading, PA but instead I entered the GPS coordinates of your cache as the search query. After zooming in I see one letterbox in the park called Angelica's Angels. That letterbox's AtlasQuest page is here and the clue is located here. Didn't even take me a full minute.

 

Now I'm betting that you're going to tell me about more letterboxes within the park that aren't listed. There very well may be. 7 boxes in the Reading, PA area are "Mystery Boxes" where the exact location is not revealed (a higher % than most areas I've seen before). But who cares? If you know there are more boxes in that park it is completely besides the point. My point is that it took 1 minute to do a quick and easy check. I never claimed it was a foolproof system, but if you check and you do happen to see a letterbox right where you were going to plant a geocache, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT, which is the whole point. If you check and a box didn't show up, then at least you checked.

 

Seriously, why in the world is there such a pushback on taking 1 minute to check for a possibly blatant overlap, that could affect both containers in the area. (And only one of which would be completely destroyed by having a hand-carved piece of artwork taken accidentally.)

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Wow! It is a bit unnerving to be reading a thread and all of a sudden see myself in it. I have to agree that my Angelica Angel is nowhere near Nolde Forest and that about 40 caches could be legally placed between my box and Nolde. I also think that doing a "quick" search on Atlas Quest to find boxes in an area where a geocacher might want to place a cache could not be accomplished in one minute. And I also have to say that I am totally unaware of a $25 fee to place a letterbox or a geocache in Nolde. I have really scaled down my letterboxing in the past couple of years and most of my remaining boxes have been around for a long time so rules and regulations may have changed since I first placed my boxes. If Nolde charges now to place boxes and caches, I will be removing mine from the area ASAP. Thanks for the information.

 

Janila

 

Just want to show you the GEOCACHE fee I mentioned is real, here is a link to the DCNR Geocaching Permit Process NOTE: READING THIS CAREFULLY NOW, NOWHERE IS THE WORD LETTERBOXING EVER MENTIONED. I AM ONLY SURE THAT IT APPLIES TO GEOCACHES. DID LETTERBOXES SLIP THROUGH A LOOPHOLE? I DON'T KNOW. NOT MY CALL.

 

Just for informational purposes, here is the official Geocache fee notification section for Pennsylvania DCNR properties: Placement of Geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks / Bureau of Forestry requires authorization by the Park Manager / District Forester or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, including a Pennsylvania Natural Diversity Inventory search (PNDI) that insures its location is compatible with other park and forest activities. The Bureau of State Parks charges a $25.00 fee for placing a geocache on State Park lands. Sponsoring a CITO event or other volunteer effort can often be arranged with the park manager in lieu of this fee. Varies from park to park. State Parks charge a $25.00 fee, Forestry does not.

 

P.S. I had a recent conversation with the Nolde Property Manager. At that time there was no indication any container concealed on Nolde had anything to fear from management. I have no idea if that will ever change. I guess what I am saying is, I wouldn't remove any Boxes now because of something I said. What I think doesn't matter.

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My first letterbox was placed within a few feet of a geocache. I had no way of knowing there was a geocache nearby. If the geocache is well-hidden, as it should be, then we don't know where they are and it's impossible to know if there is one near.

 

I do not agree with your statement. It is most definitely possible to find out where geocaches are. In fact, tens of thousands of people all over the world find them every day, based on coordinates given on the website. You won't know where puzzle and multi caches are hidden without solving or working them out, but for MOST caches, you CAN determine what is hidden in an area. Same with puzzle type letterboxes: until you solve the puzzle, you won't know where the letterbox is (we have a local one that is a challenge!).

 

I got started in letterboxing as a way to get my mother out of the house and get some exercise (she will be 93 years old next month). We are low income and cannot afford a GPS unit, nor do either of us know how to operate one. Reading and figuring out the clues to letterboxes keeps her mind active and helps combat dementia. Just because everyone on this forum owns a GPS unit and knows how to use it, does not mean everybody does. This is one of the reasons I chose letterboxing over geocacheing. Learning to use a GPS is way too much for a 93 year old woman to learn. She can't even read a compass. But, she loves figuring out the clues and hunting the letterboxes. So, if one does not have a GPS or know how to use one, how are we to know where your caches are, so as to avoid putting our letterboxes too near one?

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My first letterbox was placed within a few feet of a geocache. I had no way of knowing there was a geocache nearby. If the geocache is well-hidden, as it should be, then we don't know where they are and it's impossible to know if there is one near.

 

I do not agree with your statement. It is most definitely possible to find out where geocaches are. In fact, tens of thousands of people all over the world find them every day, based on coordinates given on the website. You won't know where puzzle and multi caches are hidden without solving or working them out, but for MOST caches, you CAN determine what is hidden in an area. Same with puzzle type letterboxes: until you solve the puzzle, you won't know where the letterbox is (we have a local one that is a challenge!).

 

I got started in letterboxing as a way to get my mother out of the house and get some exercise (she will be 93 years old next month). We are low income and cannot afford a GPS unit, nor do either of us know how to operate one. Reading and figuring out the clues to letterboxes keeps her mind active and helps combat dementia. Just because everyone on this forum owns a GPS unit and knows how to use it, does not mean everybody does. This is one of the reasons I chose letterboxing over geocacheing. Learning to use a GPS is way too much for a 93 year old woman to learn. She can't even read a compass. But, she loves figuring out the clues and hunting the letterboxes. So, if one does not have a GPS or know how to use one, how are we to know where your caches are, so as to avoid putting our letterboxes too near one?

 

Well, you have a good start, as you have already created an account here.

If you know generally where you are trying to put your letterbox, pull up a 'Map It' window from geocaching.com, and there will be icons representing the cache placements.

By using satellite view and zooming in close, you can see pretty well where a geocache might be, and then estimate how close your letterbox might be to a geocache.

 

Hope this helps -- happy letterboxing!

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Oh wow all I can see from reading this is that each side is passionate about thier preferred hobby. This is really just about respect. It should go without saying that of course there will be good and bad people out there in on each side of this and definately NO PROOF of who did what. Maybe someone became aware of the site whom was uninvolved in either side of this and decided that it would be fun to move something directly from a geocache into a letterbox and then fell in love with the stamp and stole it...a million things could have lead to this. Innocent people apologizing for the unknown? made up scenerios? anger? I can respect both sides and ask for the same from everyone, we can educate and become educated, thats it. Its the age old story really...its a feud!!! take care all off to bed for me.

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I can see that Geocaching.com could do better at educating people about letterboxing. It really would not do much good to post in the forums as the majority of geocachers don't read the forums. I don't think that asking people to search AtlasQuest.com is the solution, since if someone who is responsible does not place a cache in aspot due to a letterbox, it just leaves the spot open for the less responsible person to place one. I'm not saying you shouldn't check, just that it will only do very minimal to solving the problem. The best thing to do is to educate those that search for the caches to recognize when they find a letterbox instead. Then the finder will know not to take the stamp and can inform the CO that a letterbox is nearby. This information can be placed with the "how to geocache" info that people read when first logging into the site, as well as in the weekly newsletters. Of course, noone has mentioned the biggest negative of making more geocachers aware of letterboxing, soon AtlasQuest.com will be filled with clues like "go to the third lamppost east of Walmart..."

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well new to the game and more interested in trad caches, i'm really glad i read this, and learn't about your stresses, so yes some of us newbies are doing our homework, before we fully get into this, and trying to learn everything about all the different types, learning lots very fast with this super informative forum, so ya letterbox nutters,respect and consideration will come from this newbie :D

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I am a new geochadher and I have never heard of letter boxers. I am very glad you posted on here so if I find one I will leave it be. But a dumb question, are they in anything specific or are they in random things? Thank you.

t

 

Letterboxes look like geocaches. Letterboxing and geocaching are both scavenger hunt games. So containers and hiding spots will be similar. Letterboxes are often in lock n lock containers or other similar water tight containers. And they're hidden just like geocaches -- in trees, under rocks, in a hollow log, etc. If you're interested in finding letterboxes beyond the letterbox hybrids on geocaching.com, go to atlasquest.com and/or letterboxing.org where you can do a search for boxes in your area.

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I found a Letterbox a while back at this cache. The Letterbox and Geocache were both in the same spot. I couldn't really get a good look at the stamps in the book because it was soaking wet and molding. The container was a camo taped sleeve which was clearly not up for being outside.

 

Today I looked through my previous logs and reading my log for this cache again sparked my interest in Letterboxing. I just made a Letterboxing account and am going to get started on creating a stamp. I think it's a really cool game. I keep a Moleskine notebook on me at all times and I like the idea of filling the pages with stamps from others.

 

It seems both games go hand in hand but I can see how those not in the know would think the stamp is a tradeable item and take it. Hopefully new cachers will see this sticky and learn more about the game.

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WheW!!! Wait a seccie here....

 

I'm a letterboxer and boy, I sure do want to protect my stamps...

 

BUT.

 

It is NOT easy for letterboxers and geocachers to always be able to look up where letterboxes and geocaches are.

 

Mystery caches, multi's and Wherigos don't always show up with exact coords. Letterboxers do not have GPS units. And lately people's GPS coords have been attrocious. (using a phone to plant a geocache...not a good idea, using Google Earth... even dumber).

 

I have a gps and so I use it to locate geocaches before I plant a letterbox. And I also had to learn how to use the gps (buy it) and learn this whole daggum website... which to the computer not so literate is.... BIG. A lot of reading and looking. My mom has been geocaching with me for almost 2 years and still doesn't know how to make a pocket query. I do it for her.

 

If you have ever been to Stone Mountain, GA, where there is oh... about 200 letterboxes, you will see that MOST of them have the location of: Stone Mountain, GA as their location on Atlasquest or LBNA. You have to actually sift through hundreds of clues, MANY of which are puzzle clues that are difficult to solve... to find the letterboxes. Or nightboxes that you need to use a flashlight to find.

 

GOOD LUCK!

 

BEST AND ONLY ADVICE I HAVE..... Create more Letterbox hybrids that REQUIRE gps AND clue use to educate geocachers about letterboxing. I have hybrids and geocachers don't always read the clues... mine require it or they won't find my box. LABEL the HECK out of your letterbox stamp, box, logbook, etc. Make your hybrid for Premium Members or put them on longer, more remote parts of a trail. Lock, tie down, glue to the lid, put in seperate compartments inside a larger container, or otherwise protect your HAND CARVED stamp.

 

Thanks!

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This is a reminder...

 

Hello!

 

I would like to remind the geocache community that not all boxes hidden are geocaches, some are letterboxes and the stamps in the boxes are not trade items. Please feel free to log in the book, but please do not take the stamp! If you don't know what a letterbox is, please see: http://www.atlasquest.com/about/wiki/browse.html?gCatId=14#q1

 

We recently had a stamp replaced with an eraser in box located in Blue Mountain Reservation in Westchester NY. The stamp was an image of a hand reaching into a goldfish bowl. If anyone has any information regarding this stamp, please contact me.

 

Thanks!!

HikerGuyEd

ed@bluarcher.com

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This is a reminder...

 

Hello!

 

I would like to remind the geocache community that not all boxes hidden are geocaches, some are letterboxes and the stamps in the boxes are not trade items. Please feel free to log in the book, but please do not take the stamp! If you don't know what a letterbox is, please see: http://www.atlasques...ml?gCatId=14#q1

 

We recently had a stamp replaced with an eraser in box located in Blue Mountain Reservation in Westchester NY. The stamp was an image of a hand reaching into a goldfish bowl. If anyone has any information regarding this stamp, please contact me.

 

Thanks!!

HikerGuyEd

ed@bluarcher.com

 

Was it the Goldfish Apocalypse letterbox (planted January 21, 2012) next to the Blue-per geocache (planted 06/12/2011)?

 

March 11

Nautical Star (a letterboxer) found Goldfish Apocalypse on March 11th and logged a find on Atlas Quest.

 

March 22

The last Blue-per log was on March 22nd, (the log before that was in January). It says that the cacher found an empty lock n lock container with no logbook or stamp. Here's the March 22 log entry with photo

 

April 22

I see a April 22nd entry on Atlas Quest that says the box contained an eraser. They don't mention that the logbook was missing. They also wrote that there is a geocache 2 feet away.

 

So sometime between March 11th (when a letterboxer logged a find) and March 22nd (when a geocacher discovered an empty container), the stamp and logbook went missing.

 

It would be very strange for a geocacher to take the logbook. I'm thinking that the box was muggled between March 11 and March 22.

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As a first timer, I had never heard of letterboxing. My husband, daughter and a few friends stumbled upon one. we didnt take the stamp, no did we have one on us, but we thought it was cool. Would it be considered tacky for geocachers to sign these books anyway?

 

It would be great if you would sign the log. You can draw a little picture, you can even record the find on Atlasquest.com. If you don't know the name of the letterbox or its owner, you can discreetly describe the box in the forum for that state. Such as, "I found a letterbox with a squirrel stamp in it in Chesnut Park in Palm Harbor, FL. Does anyone know what this stamp might be?" Or do a search of the area, and you will likely be able to figure it out.

 

Have fun, and keep passing the word about letterboxes to other geocachers. We are so outnumbered, we need all the help we can get, thanks!

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I did not read ALL the posts here, but as a fairly new cacher, and I say fairly new since I have found 63 caches, but know I have a lot more to find and learn, I have seen on my phone's geocaching app some "letterboxes." After what I did read here, I now know that there is a difference and what I am seeing are gonna be the "HYBRIDs." In most ways letterboxing sounds a lot like geocaching. So I can see how a letterbox could be mistaken for a geocache. I have yet to stumble upon a letterbox, but after what I have read in this thread, I am thinking I will try out letterboxing to see what it is like.

 

But getting back to the point I was trying to make, because of the geocache/letterbox hybrids, most cachers may not be aware that letterboxing is a completely separate activity from geocaching. I didn't till I found and read this thread. The problem I see with the hybrids is that unless someone is educated, they will think that a dedicated letterbox is just another type of geocache and trade anyway.

 

Now that I am more educated, if I happen upon one, I know that the stamp and what not is not for trade and stays with the box.

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First time in these forums and a relatively newbie to this sport/game/pastime. This was an interesting thread and I am glad I read it so I know what to look for.

 

Something interesting I noticed when signing the log for GC2Q6KX over the weekend was that someone had stamped or drawn (what I assumed at the time) a little design in the log book. I thought it was their way of signing their name uniquely. Maybe it was? Or was it a letterboxer that found the GeoCache?

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First time in these forums and a relatively newbie to this sport/game/pastime. This was an interesting thread and I am glad I read it so I know what to look for.

 

Something interesting I noticed when signing the log for GC2Q6KX over the weekend was that someone had stamped or drawn (what I assumed at the time) a little design in the log book. I thought it was their way of signing their name uniquely. Maybe it was? Or was it a letterboxer that found the GeoCache?

 

Many Geocachers have had personal stamps made up that they use for signing logs. I have seen many logs that were stamped instead of signed. Some also use stickers. They are not necessarily letterboxers, they use the stamp to save time, or just to be unique.

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Actually it seems that letterboxing started before geocaching. About 160 years before geocaching.

 

BTW

 

Here is a cache placed in January 2013 at a rest area on Interstate 81. It happens to be a few feet from a letterbox. There are two large trees in the area and each is next to one of the trees. Based on the logs it seems that the cache somehow got destroyed and a throwdown is now in its place (we were accused of placing the throwdown but we didn't ). People have been signing the cache and/or signing the letterbox. There is lots of confusion.

 

http://coord.info/GC44PJ3

Edited by Ma & Pa
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Actually it seems that letterboxing started before geocaching. About 160 years before geocaching.

 

BTW

 

Here is a cache placed in January 2013 at a rest area on Interstate 81. It happens to be a few feet from a letterbox. There are two large trees in the area and each is next to one of the trees. Based on the logs it seems that the cache somehow got destroyed and a throwdown is now in its place (we were accused of placing the throwdown but we didn't ). People have been signing the cache and/or signing the letterbox. There is lots of confusion.

 

http://coord.info/GC44PJ3

 

Must be some high-tech people to have a GPS over 160 years ago and to post coordinates on websites to find these things,.. over 160 years ago. AWESOME. :rolleyes:

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