Is it ok to place a cache in a 'members only' location?

[Cartoon Cat]

Hi all,

 

My partner and I are very new to geocaching but are already considering hiding our own cache. I'd like to go the whole hog on our first one, have a fairly big container and some cool swaps. Having read about damage to some caches, or them going missing entirely, I have been considering placing a cache in a private communal garden away from the majority of 'muggles'. The gardens require a paid annual membership (though membership is open to all willing to subscribe) and the gardens are open to the public several times a year for events, most for free. So my question basically is, would it be too mean to place a cache that could only be accessed a few days a year without taking out a membership?

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

[+wmpastor]

Sounds doubtful, but i'm sure the experts will chime in soon.

[+niraD]

Whether it is "mean" is irrelevant. The real question is whether it violates the guidelines against commercial geocaches. Specifically: "It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service."

[Cartoon Cat]

Thanks for the link niraD. Having read the guidelines against commercial geocaches I don't think this one would be in breach. The cache would be nothing to do with the location itself, merely hidden there. The gardens are not run as a business, there are no staff or services to interact with, or turnstiles etc. so I think my only concern is whether geocachers would enjoy a cache that can only be grabbed on particular dates in the year, or if they would just find it frustrating.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I think your best approach on this would be to write an area reviewer and ask. Look for the "Publish" log on a recently cache in your area - looks like

Long Man http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?guid=db04dc91-fc02-45b9-8927-35a6afd2005e could be right.

 

The restricted free dates of availability may well be an issue.

Your relatively short history in the game may impact this - will you continue to update the cache page about the free dates? is it possible to get that information without having to link to a site that promotes buying garden membership?

 

You'll definitely need explicit permission for the cache in the garden.

[+kunarion]

The restricted free dates of availability may well be an issue.

Your relatively short history in the game may impact this - will you continue to update the cache page about the free dates? is it possible to get that information without having to link to a site that promotes buying garden membership?

 

You'll definitely need explicit permission for the cache in the garden.

The OP should ask at the garden, as well as the local reviewer, if Geocaches are OK. Are caches there already?

 

The OP will also have to maintain a membership with the garden. Be aware that caches can still be damaged or missing in a paid garden, but perhaps the caches are caused to be damaged or missing by a different clientele than caches in the general public.

[+niraD]

The gardens are not run as a business, there are no staff or services to interact with, or turnstiles etc.

Isn't the paid annual membership a product or service? Would the cache, by its very existence, suggest (or require) that geocachers pay for an annual membership, to gain access to the cache location?

[+kunarion]

The gardens are not run as a business, there are no staff or services to interact with, or turnstiles etc.

Isn't the paid annual membership a product or service? Would the cache, by its very existence, suggest (or require) that geocachers pay for an annual membership, to gain access to the cache location?

There seems to be a special allowance for non-profit or government parks/gardens, or there once was. One where I placed some caches is a small county park that charges $10 per day to out-of-county visitors, with very attentive marshals enforcing it. Caches there that are not immediately in reach of children, are doing well compared to caches I've placed in non-fee parks. And they can be placed out in the open (one has been easily found from 80 feet away), and be much more elaborate. Yet one Micro in a tree near a picnic area gets disassembled and strewn around. Go figure.

That place is renowned for its bass fishing, so the fees get paid and the place is sometimes kinda crowded.

 

There's an even more expensive "Gardens" about an hour from where I live, which has daily and yearly rates. The popularity of the place seems to cancel the cache endurance theory. Many old caches there are are empty, broken, or trashed. They tend to be "Community maintained" by cachers, yeah, not maintained so well . And a PVC pipe "Monkey Puzzle" was destroyed a couple of times.

 

Here's an example of a park that may be a tough sell for Geocaching. I've been eyeing a park in a nearby county. Out-of-county season pass is $40 (and also covers a couple of other rec areas). It's closed from Nov-Feb every year. One park, even with the fee, is open only to county residents. Those are just examples, but at some point, some places that otherwise may be fun spots for caches may be too restrictive. And expensive. Yet none of the above may be disapproved due to being "a business".

Edited September 21, 2015 by kunarion

[+The A-Team]

The gardens are not run as a business, there are no staff or services to interact with, or turnstiles etc...

How is access controlled then? Is it simply on the honour system? If so, then I'd say it's a bad idea to put a cache in there. While many cachers would either pay up or wait until the free dates, there will undoubtedly be some bad apples who will decide that their smiley is worth more than any access restrictions and enter the garden anyway. This could put geocaching in a bad light.

[+Bear and Ragged]

The gardens are not run as a business, there are no staff or services to interact with, or turnstiles etc...

How is access controlled then? Is it simply on the honour system? If so, then I'd say it's a bad idea to put a cache in there. While many cachers would either pay up or wait until the free dates, there will undoubtedly be some bad apples who will decide that their smiley is worth more than any access restrictions and enter the garden anyway. This could put geocaching in a bad light.

 

This ^^ Just what I was thinking!

[+T.D.M.22]

It's still a bussiness. You pay for something (your membership) and receive something (a key, or pass code or whatever to get into the garden) may not be a profitable bussiness. Plus if there's nobody to interact with, who who do you give money to?

 

And the don't the guidelines state commercial, rather than bussiness? Even a tourist center, or museum can be considered commercial.

[Cartoon Cat]

Kunarion, it's good to know there is a precedent for this type of cache, but I think The A-Team/Bear and Rugged have a good point, I hadn't considered people trying to gain entry outside of public open days, perhaps it's best if I don't go ahead with this one and find another location instead.

 

I still don't think it could be considered a commercial cache though, or at least not without interpreting the commercial guidelines in such a rigid way as to render thousands of existing caches invalid; caches in/near churches, castles, or multicaches encouraging people to visit every pub or tea shop in an area for example. Personally I think these sound fun and I'm looking forward to finding them, I think in the vast majority of cases the interesting location/theme outweighs any tenuous commercial element.

 

Thanks for your thoughts all, back to the drawing board.

[+kunarion]

I hadn't considered people trying to gain entry outside of public open days, perhaps it's best if I don't go ahead with this one and find another location instead.

You may check with their home office anyway. They may be planning their own caches. I would hope a cache there would be especially creative.

[+Pond Bird]

Hi all,

 

My partner and I are very new to geocaching but are already considering hiding our own cache. I'd like to go the whole hog on our first one, have a fairly big container and some cool swaps. Having read about damage to some caches, or them going missing entirely, I have been considering placing a cache in a private communal garden away from the majority of 'muggles'. The gardens require a paid annual membership (though membership is open to all willing to subscribe) and the gardens are open to the public several times a year for events, most for free. So my question basically is, would it be too mean to place a cache that could only be accessed a few days a year without taking out a membership?

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

 

If you are requiring geocachers to have a paid membership to the "garden" area, and/or having a very small range of days the area can be accessed, then the cache will not be approved.

 

If you set an "Attribute" for "parking/access fee" and the organization with the "garden" will just charge a fee for visits (as in finding the cache): then the reviewer may be able to figure out a way for your cache to be eligible for approval.

[+vw_k]

Most caches are in publicly accessible places and most don't get stolen or vandalised, the ones that frequently get "muggled" are likely to be badly hidden (by the placer or the last finder) or in an unsuitable area.

 

If you're worried about a cache going missing or getting damaged then another option is to make it harder to find. Make it a multi or mystery cache that requires some brain power to work out the co-ordinates and hide it in a place that it's not likely to get spotted easily by passers by.

[+briansnat]

Most caches are in publicly accessible places and most don't get stolen or vandalised, the ones that frequently get "muggled" are likely to be badly hidden (by the placer or the last finder) or in an unsuitable area.

 

If you're worried about a cache going missing or getting damaged then another option is to make it harder to find. Make it a multi or mystery cache that requires some brain power to work out the co-ordinates and hide it in a place that it's not likely to get spotted easily by passers by.

 

Yes, hide it well and far off the beaten path. A cache hidden at the end of a 1 or 2 mile hike is far less likely to go missing than one hidden 100 feet from a parking lot, road or popular trail.

[+GeoTrekker26]

Kunarion, it's good to know there is a precedent for this type of cache...

 

From the geocaching guidelines. Note the emphasis is in the original.

"Please be advised that there is no precedent for placing geocaches. This means that the past publication of a similar geocache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the publication of a new geocache."

[+5Campbells]

They have a cache on Disneys Castaway Cay Island. Only way there is if you take a Disney Cruise.

[+MtnMutt-ProDuckShins]

Is there a Posted Sign ... Private or Member Only?

 

Who did you contact to Grant permission to place a Cache on this Property?

 

How can one access this Cache if it is only available a few times a year? Does one need to sneak in under the cover of darkness?

 

Best answer would be ... go find a better spot, somewhere the Public can access without problems.

[+TriciaG]

For the record, the OP posted this more than 3 months ago. They have no hidden caches. Their last find (#7) was in October, and they haven't logged into the website in 2 months. I think it's safe to say they chose against placing this cache.

[+dprovan]

Yes, hide it well and far off the beaten path. A cache hidden at the end of a 1 or 2 mile hike is far less likely to go missing than one hidden 100 feet from a parking lot, road or popular trail.

Less likely to go missing when measured against time, but not when measured against number of visits.