Exclusive events?

[+GeoLog81]

Are there any guidelines that the events should be available to the large circle of geocachers?

 

In my vicinity (Germany) there are very often events with very limited amount of places (say 20 or 40) and often when I click the link in mail, all places are gone.

 

I understand that any event in the restaurant etc. will have limited capacity, but if it's normal that 40 people log 'will attend' on the first day, I think the owner should find out how to make the event available for larger amount of people, and not for 'who's first' or 'who was informed before publish'. I feel quite dull when I see such listing.

 

Is there anything in the guidelines that there's something wrong with such events or they are fully OK?

 

Shouldn't reviewer, seeins such listing, write a note "Hey dude, it's a nice idea for the event, but there are more than 20 geocachers here that would like to attend, please make the event available for greater number of people"? Making the event for a few people in the active geocaching area is like bringing a few candies to office, giving them to the quickest and saying 'bad luck' to the others. Better not bring anything... But maybe I'm alone with such perception of those events?

[cezanne]

I understand that any event in the restaurant etc. will have limited capacity, but if it's normal that 40 people log 'will attend' on the first day, I think the owner should find out how to make the event available for larger amount of people, and not for 'who's first' or 'who was informed before publish'.

 

I do not think that this should be the job of the event owner. It would mean that in some locations you could not have any event in a nice cosy place and would have to rent a hall like location.

 

If you want to organize such an event, go ahead.

 

I would not appreciate if areas with many cachers get punished even further than they are already are due to the problems that come along with so many cachers.

 

As the guidelines are regarded, there cannot be lower bounds on the number of available places of the type you would like to have as in the big majority of places around the world, events are typically small except very special events. You cannot come up with special rules for special places and forbidding events there that are perfectly ok everywhere else.

 

 

Cezanne

[+lowca]

Have you tried to attend such an event 'unwelcomed' and then log 'attended'? This may be viewed like (illegal) additional logging requirement .

[+Mudfrog]

I've been to many events but i've never encountered one that limited the amount of attendees. I honestly don't think anyone around our parts would ever purposely hold an event with a limit.

 

To be honest, i'd be a little concerned that a limited attendee event's owner might be giving his closer caching buddies a heads up, thereby making it a private party. Not a problem for a person doing this with his own party but i don't feel it's appropriate if the event is published on gc.com.

 

This being said, i don't know where GC.com stands on this.

[+whh0]

So if you tried to book a table at your favourite restaurant and they are full do you tell the owner that "Hey dude, it's a nice idea for a restaurant, but there are more than 20 people here that would like to attend, please make the restaurant available for greater number of people"?

 

I guess probably not.

 

Do you have your account set up to receive notifications of new event? You may find that helps. Or as Cezanne says, organise one yourself.

[+GeoLog81]

If the place of the event physically limit the number of people, for example it's in a small biergarten, 'attending' such an event would make no sense for me because there would be probably no place to sit. It would be no value added to me.

 

The problem is, where the most events are limiting the number of attenders, and 'normal' events are gaining little attention. The program of that 'cosy' events looks sometimes interesting, but the problem is, having no auto, I need more time to check out if I'll be able to attend. In that time, all places are taken...

 

I feel it would be appropriate at least to try to make such events that can accomodate possibly all visitors. And if it's not possible, than make the event outside, and make the indoor part optional, with the information that the owner can't guarantee that all attenders can take part, so please register earlier. It would still get what the owner wants (for example, bowling in a little fitness club) but it would be also open to the people who just to want to come for 20 minutes and gossip a bit.

[+Viajero Perdido]

I think if event spots are snapped up so quickly in your town, you need more events.

 

That's your cue...

[+Mudfrog]

So if you tried to book a table at your favourite restaurant and they are full do you tell the owner that "Hey dude, it's a nice idea for a restaurant, but there are more than 20 people here that would like to attend, please make the restaurant available for greater number of people"?

 

I guess probably not.

 

Do you have your account set up to receive notifications of new event? You may find that helps. Or as Cezanne says, organise one yourself.

 

Saw yours and Cezanne's posts after i submitted mine.

 

Sure, there are times when i want to meet up with friends at a nice place with limited capacity. We do this all the time but i wouldn't ever think about trying to list something like this on GC.com.

 

Myself, i'd look at past events, note the average number of attendees, and go from there. If my event happened to draw in more attendees than the place i chose could hold, then i'd try to come up with another option. I would never host an event on GC.com that i knew wouldn't accomodate the number cachers in our area.

[+Team Microdot]

I read this thread and I'm even more inclined to not bother organising any more events.

 

In my experience large groups of people log at the very last minute and still fail to comply with polite requests such as please confirm if you'll be eating at the event so that we can advise the venue / kitchen staff.

 

It's like trying to herd cats.

[Pup Patrol]

Are there any guidelines that the events should be available to the large circle of geocachers?

 

In my vicinity (Germany) there are very often events with very limited amount of places (say 20 or 40) and often when I click the link in mail, all places are gone.

 

I understand that any event in the restaurant etc. will have limited capacity, but if it's normal that 40 people log 'will attend' on the first day, I think the owner should find out how to make the event available for larger amount of people, and not for 'who's first' or 'who was informed before publish'. I feel quite dull when I see such listing.

 

Is there anything in the guidelines that there's something wrong with such events or they are fully OK?

 

Shouldn't reviewer, seeins such listing, write a note "Hey dude, it's a nice idea for the event, but there are more than 20 geocachers here that would like to attend, please make the event available for greater number of people"? Making the event for a few people in the active geocaching area is like bringing a few candies to office, giving them to the quickest and saying 'bad luck' to the others. Better not bring anything... But maybe I'm alone with such perception of those events?

 

It's very common to hold events in restaurants, etc, which by their nature have a legal limit for seating. It's often included in the event listing a "countdown" list of the number of people as they log "will attend", and the number in their party expecting to attend.

 

That doesn't mean that the event host is "limiting" the number of attendees for their own enjoyment. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

Forcing people to only hold events in locales that could hold the possible maximum number of people would pretty much kill off the holding of events. How could one possibly predict whether there will be 5 people show up or 150?

 

What I've seen in a lot of event listings here is the following text:

 

We have seating for approximately 45 people

Even if it seems like we've got a full house -- feel free to stop by and say "Hello" to Attend!

 

As for what the Guidelines say regarding events....

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

 

B.

[Pup Patrol]

If the place of the event physically limit the number of people, for example it's in a small biergarten, 'attending' such an event would make no sense for me because there would be probably no place to sit. It would be no value added to me.

 

The problem is, where the most events are limiting the number of attenders, and 'normal' events are gaining little attention. The program of that 'cosy' events looks sometimes interesting, but the problem is, having no auto, I need more time to check out if I'll be able to attend. In that time, all places are taken...

 

I feel it would be appropriate at least to try to make such events that can accomodate possibly all visitors. And if it's not possible, than make the event outside, and make the indoor part optional, with the information that the owner can't guarantee that all attenders can take part, so please register earlier. It would still get what the owner wants (for example, bowling in a little fitness club) but it would be also open to the people who just to want to come for 20 minutes and gossip a bit.

 

Go ahead and organize an event. Look into booking the largest locale possible, for the maximum number of people that could possibly attend. Let us know how much that is going to cost you.

 

It's winter here in Canada, and there's outdoor events planned. Skating, etc.

 

Go ahead and organize one, that is free for everyone.

 

Hold an event in your back yard, with hot chocolate and snowball fights.

 

I've never seen an event listing that is attempting to exclude people for the heck of it.

 

I've seen lots and lots of event listing that clearly state that the restaurant, etc has a limited number of seating available. There's nothing conspiratorial or cliquey about it.

 

 

B.

[+redsox_mark]

In my area I've not seen events with a specific limit. But the venues are generally pubs. In a typical British Pub, if you want to be assured to have a table and to eat you may need to make a reservation. But to come in and drink there is no limit, it is generally self regulated; i.e. if the pub becomes so crowded to be unpleasant then people will leave.

 

So I have turned up to an event where there was no place to sit and it was too crowded so I didn't stay long; but I've never been turned away.

I've been to only one event in Germany, and it was in a crowded bar, similar to the British events I've been to.

 

But can understand if the venue has a fixed limit - you have booked a room which has a legal limit of holding 40 people - then you need to control numbers.

[+T.D.M.22]

Well I live in Canada. So that basically means we can't have any events in the winter, since every indoor venue does have a limitation on the amount that it can hold.

 

I don't see this as unfair, everyone has the same chance to say they'll be there. It's notime the CO is saying only cachers with 500 finds or more can come.

[+NeverSummer]

In a couple of places I have lived there were "the good ol' boys" who would generally always be counted on to go caching together, be at events together, create cache listings together, and publish events together. It felt very exclusive at times, and I found it hard to want to attend their events because of the seemingly exclusive nature of their relationship. What it came down to was swallowing my fear and nervousness and going to one of the events. After that, I was able to see that I didn't fit in their close-knit group of friends, but that their location choices for events was mostly driven by the closed feedback loop of their relationship.

 

All it took was being at another event which wasn't theirs and mentioning to one of them that it would be great if they could have a couple of events at larger locations, outside of their favorite restaurant or coffee shop so that there was more room for people, and less exclusivity. I stuck out my neck, and it worked. There were then events at bigger places and they made efforts to not be so exclusive.

 

Now, that's a perfect example which is not going to be the experience of everyone. One might not be willing or able to stick their neck out like that. The people one talks to might not be so receptive. There might be another reason for choosing those venues which you might not know. Many things have to "align" for things to change, and the only way to start that rock rolling is to ask directly. Post a note on the page, or contact the event coordinator.

 

If you are too nervous or introverted to do so, then it might be time to just let it go. If they are choosing to be exclusive, you can't force them to do otherwise. If one is too introverted or nervous to "open a can of worms" by asking them to move it to a venue with more room, you'll never see the change you want to see in the events around you. So you won't know if it is possible for them to "be more inclusive" unless you kindly ask if they could be.

[+GeoLog81]

Event Caches facilitate the social aspect of geocaching. They are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers.

 

If someone wants to be exclusive, it's OK, but then, they should express their exclusiveness in other forms as geocaching events. Events are to be open to other geocachers, and not only to close friends.

 

It's just like nobody forbids you to make a cache at your house and give the logbook to only those who are able to song carols in 3 languages, but you don't have to publish it on geocaching.com (although there's at least one portal, where you can publish something like that as a special type of geocache).

 

When I've organized my 'welcome Event' in Prague, the reviewer has written me that the place I've chosen is suboptimal and proposed a better one. If someone can't find any place for event rather then a small pub, than the reviewer could help find a better fit one. It's hardly possible that in the big city there's no pub or restaurant that can hold more than 40 or 50 people.

 

And of course, some places may simply be unsuited for organizing geocaching events.

 

Low limit of places may be of course OK, if in the given vicinity the events where more than 20 people come are very rare.

[+GeoTrekker26]

Event Caches facilitate the social aspect of geocaching. They are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers.

 

If someone wants to be exclusive, it's OK, but then, they should express their exclusiveness in other forms as geocaching events. Events are to be open to other geocachers, and not only to close friends.

 

It's just like nobody forbids you to make a cache at your house and give the logbook to only those who are able to song carols in 3 languages, but you don't have to publish it on geocaching.com (although there's at least one portal, where you can publish something like that as a special type of geocache).

 

When I've organized my 'welcome Event' in Prague, the reviewer has written me that the place I've chosen is suboptimal and proposed a better one. If someone can't find any place for event rather then a small pub, than the reviewer could help find a better fit one. It's hardly possible that in the big city there's no pub or restaurant that can hold more than 40 or 50 people.

 

And of course, some places may simply be unsuited for organizing geocaching events.

 

Low limit of places may be of course OK, if in the given vicinity the events where more than 20 people come are very rare.

 

A small venue doesn't make an event exclusive. Anyone who wants to attend can, up to the capacity of the venue. An exclusive event would bar certain people even if space is still available. I can see reasons for both small intimate events and large more impersonal events. Also large venues may be available but they may also require a rental fee and a per person minimum.

 

There is no way a reviewer should be required to assist in making arrangement for an event cache. In most cases they will not even know what is available in a particular area.

[+SwineFlew]

During geowoodstock event in St Charles MO, many of those extra events in restaurants was over packed. I am talking about 100's of people! Most of the restaurants was happy to see us, but there was one that wasn't too happy. I left without ordering a meal and it was SO PACKED.

 

In extreme cases like those extra events around Geowoodstock , I feel that reviewers should be double checking to see if the place can really handle it.

 

Edited to add, at one place, Five Guys, they were waiting for us! They had all their help there(very likely on overtime) and was working fast!

Edited January 17, 2015 by SwineFlew

[+dprovan]

I never dreamed of the possibility of an event with a limit on attendance. The very idea seems weird from here in California. So I can't say anything about them in practice. But if I wanted to attend such an event, I'd show up, and if there wasn't any room for me, I'd say "Hi!", sign the log (if I felt like it), and leave. If I really wanted to interact a little, I'd show up early and sit around, making it clear I didn't have an allocated seat, and leave when my seat was needed by someone authorized to attend. I don't get to eat dinner. Big deal.

 

If I was the only one to do that, I wouldn't be surprised if room could be made for me. On the other hand, if such "drop in" attendance became popular, then there would be a group of us unauthorized types out front saying "so what are we going to do?" As far as I know, the event organizer would still have to allow us to log our attendance, and then we'd go off and have our geocaching interaction with the unofficial half of the event.

 

Would that work?

[+Mudfrog]

I never dreamed of the possibility of an event with a limit on attendance. The very idea seems weird from here in California. So I can't say anything about them in practice. But if I wanted to attend such an event, I'd show up, and if there wasn't any room for me, I'd say "Hi!", sign the log (if I felt like it), and leave. If I really wanted to interact a little, I'd show up early and sit around, making it clear I didn't have an allocated seat, and leave when my seat was needed by someone authorized to attend. I don't get to eat dinner. Big deal.

 

If I was the only one to do that, I wouldn't be surprised if room could be made for me. On the other hand, if such "drop in" attendance became popular, then there would be a group of us unauthorized types out front saying "so what are we going to do?" As far as I know, the event organizer would still have to allow us to log our attendance, and then we'd go off and have our geocaching interaction with the unofficial half of the event.

 

Would that work?

 

I was at first thinking this was what a person could do. Show up, visit for a few minutes, then leave if there was not enough room. But the OP's statement of

 

In my vicinity (Germany) there are very often events with very limited amount of places (say 20 or 40) and often when I click the link in mail, all places are gone.

 

made me think that a certain number of geocachers had to sign up ahead of time in order to attend. If you didn't get on the list, then you were out of luck. I wouldn't host an event if i had to limit like this.

[cezanne]

I never dreamed of the possibility of an event with a limit on attendance. The very idea seems weird from here in California.

 

When I look through the list of events you attended, it shows me that the events you attend are so much smaller than events of the same type (so not events matched with mega events or other large attraction, just classical, plain normal events) are in cities in Germany and Austria with many cachers. The same holds true for Mudfrog and others. There is no need for limits in your case.

 

 

Of course one could book a hall or say a room in a brewery or something of the type, but that's not the favourite location of everyone. I guess the organizer should be have some freedom to choose a location he/she likes.

The local pub or pizza place should be a legitimate venue.

 

One might be able to squeeze in say 5 people more or 10 than the official limit, but not 50 or even more. There need limits for indoor events in those places where there are lots of cachers.

 

Consider e.g. this outdoor event

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC5ET16_8-wiener-keks-dosen-event

which took place in Vienna (a few days before Christmas) - so far 166 cachers logged an attended (not everyone has logged so far) and many came in groups of 2-5 people - so there were way beyond 300 people present which would not be manageable for an indoor event.

Edited January 18, 2015 by cezanne

[+niraD]

One might be able to squeeze in say 5 people more or 10 than the official limit, but not 50 or even more. There need limits for indoor events in those places where there are lots of cachers.

Sometimes, even outdoor events have limits on attendance. I recall an event at a park run by a local open space district a few years ago. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details because I didn't attend (and it was a few years ago), but they were keeping track of the number of people who said they would attend, and they cut it off once they had reached the capacity of the location.

 

But limits on event attendance are the exception around here, not the rule. Even when there are hard limits (e.g., the capacity of the restaurant, or the capacity of the room), there's usually room for everyone who will attend (and then some).

[+narcissa]

If people are determined to be "exclusive," the best thing to do is simply ignore them and organize your own, open event that will obviously be way more fun.

[+GeoLog81]

If people are determined to be "exclusive," the best thing to do is simply ignore them and organize your own, open event that will obviously be way more fun.

 

Yeah, but you could say as well, that if people dig in their caches or provide ALR, you could ignore them and go for others.

 

But some people dislike dig-ins and ALRs so much, they are no longer allowed. Although there are still people who like them.

[cezanne]

If people are determined to be "exclusive," the best thing to do is simply ignore them and organize your own, open event that will obviously be way more fun.

 

Yeah, but you could say as well, that if people dig in their caches or provide ALR, you could ignore them and go for others.

 

But some people dislike dig-ins and ALRs so much, they are no longer allowed. Although there are still people who like them.

 

There are large difference between burried caches (very bad for the reputation of geocaching) and ALRs (lead to many debates which Groundspeak

had to cope with) and events that are listed with an upper bound of participants reasonable with respect to the chosen type of event.

 

If one wants to have an event at a place with nice Italian food (just an example), it makes no sense to move to a large hall with fast food catering.

The event location that is used for the regular (about once every two months) event in my home town e.g. has be chosen to the excellent buffet they offer.

The food is one of the motivations for some participants to show up. They would not attend an event at McDonalds e.g.

 

If one wants to organize an event where people meet at a mountain hut and then use sledges to go back down to the value, one will always be confronted with

capacity limits and would not want to move the event to a large restaurant in the valley.

 

Our request for events with no capacity limits in locations with many cachers would mean that only events would remain that are of a very special type and

which would not attract certain group of cachers at all. Why should it make sense to limit the type of available events? Who can win?

 

One can organize very large events regardless of whether small ones exist.

 

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

Event Caches facilitate the social aspect of geocaching. They are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers.

 

If someone wants to be exclusive, it's OK, but then, they should express their exclusiveness in other forms as geocaching events. Events are to be open to other geocachers, and not only to close friends.

 

I do not think that the guidelines mean that every event should be suitable for every single geocacher.

 

Sometimes I end up with the feeling that there will come a time when only very sterile somehow standardized events will survive that hardly anyoneo enjoys

except those who care only about logging attended it logs.

 

Recently I heard for example about an event organized by people who own and love cats. At the event cats will be present, so cachers should not bring along dogs.

A cacher who is allergic against cats complained. Next time someone will complain who wants to enforce coming with a dog.

At the another event where in order to get provided with the event room at no cost, the participants need to commit themselves to pay a certain fee for the buffet style

food, someone will complain if the buffet does not offer something suitable for every kind of food allergy, prefered style of food (vegan for example).

 

It makes much more sense in my opinion if everyone selects the events that are suitable for oneself.

So there could be events where many dogs are present, but cats are not welcome. Events where cats are welcome, but no dogs.

Events where only vegan food is supplied, but no gluten free food etc

 

This appears more attractive to me than say forbid cat and dogs at events and require that all sorts of food are available or no food at all.

 

One can really overdo the arguments about events being exclusive.

[+narcissa]

If people are determined to be "exclusive," the best thing to do is simply ignore them and organize your own, open event that will obviously be way more fun.

 

Yeah, but you could say as well, that if people dig in their caches or provide ALR, you could ignore them and go for others.

 

But some people dislike dig-ins and ALRs so much, they are no longer allowed. Although there are still people who like them.

 

What makes you think that's about people disliking them?

[+Ma & Pa]

One might be able to squeeze in say 5 people more or 10 than the official limit, but not 50 or even more. There need limits for indoor events in those places where there are lots of cachers.

Sometimes, even outdoor events have limits on attendance. I recall an event at a park run by a local open space district a few years ago. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details because I didn't attend (and it was a few years ago), but they were keeping track of the number of people who said they would attend, and they cut it off once they had reached the capacity of the location.

 

But limits on event attendance are the exception around here, not the rule. Even when there are hard limits (e.g., the capacity of the restaurant, or the capacity of the room), there's usually room for everyone who will attend (and then some).

 

Around here we have very few WILL ATTEND logs for events and we often et 10 times that number in attendance.

 

Anyhow I have a questions about this whole discussion.

 

If someone counts all the WILL ATTEND logs and then announces that they reached the limit, what is stopping me from showing up and signing the log book and claiming attendance?

 

Is there anything in the guidelines that will support having a limit and would the guidelines prevent me from showing up and claiming the event?

 

PAul

 

.

[cezanne]

If someone counts all the WILL ATTEND logs and then announces that they reached the limit, what is stopping me from showing up and signing the log book and claiming attendance?

 

Of course you can show up and log an attended log (to that end you do not even need to sign a log book as this is not compulsory for events).

I do hope however that such participants do not take away seats (or other limited resources, it could be food if a buffet for a certain number of people has been ordered, it could be places for a guided tour, sledges availabe for rent and many other things) from those who have registered in time before the limit got reached. That would be very unfair.

 

I also hope that at events where dogs or cats or whatever are not welcome, attendants will respect this.

 

If you read the OP's first post, he somehow wants to get a seat even if he registers late - just having the option to log an attended it, is not enough for him and that would then mean that in areas with many cachers there is no freedom any longer to choose a location that fits the preferences of the event organizers.

Edited January 19, 2015 by cezanne

[+niraD]

Sometimes, even outdoor events have limits on attendance. I recall an event at a park run by a local open space district a few years ago. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details because I didn't attend (and it was a few years ago), but they were keeping track of the number of people who said they would attend, and they cut it off once they had reached the capacity of the location.

 

But limits on event attendance are the exception around here, not the rule. Even when there are hard limits (e.g., the capacity of the restaurant, or the capacity of the room), there's usually room for everyone who will attend (and then some).

If someone counts all the WILL ATTEND logs and then announces that they reached the limit, what is stopping me from showing up and signing the log book and claiming attendance?

At the limited-attendance event I referred to, I think they were prepared to restrict access at the entrance. If you didn't RSVP, then you couldn't even get to the parking lot, let alone the event location.

 

But again, I didn't attend, and it was a few years ago, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details.