Determining the difficulty rating for a challenge cache

[+barefootjeff]

The new challenge cache guidelines say "We recommend that the difficulty rating be based on the challenge, the terrain rating on the challenge cache location" but that's all they say. So how does one go about rating the difficulty of a challenge?

 

The Help Centre has a good table of D/T rating descriptions for ordinary caches but none of this applies to the difficulty of fulfilling a challenge. Some factors I can think of are the number of qualifying caches in the cache's catchment area compared to the number required, how hard those caches are to find (D and T), how long it might take for someone starting with no qualifying finds to reach qualification, or even what percentage of the local cachers already qualify at the time of publication. I'm sure there are other factors too, depending on the nature of the challenge, but how do you combine all of that into a D rating for the challenge?

 

Or is it just a finger in the air and, um, make it 2.5 or whatever?

 

Thoughts anyone?

[+funkymunkyzone]

My thought is that it depends on the challenge.

 

For example if the challenge is to fill the D/T grid then obviously that means finding a D5 cache, making the challenge D5. If it's some other type of challenge, I stick my finger in the air and guess at a suitable D rating.

 

To be honest, I don't actually get why the D is for the challenge (and therefore effectively based on the D of all the cache finds needed to qualify, possibly plus a bit more) but the T is only for the physical box for the challenge cache. In my mind it should be one or the other - D/T simply the rating for finding the physical cache for the challenge cache, or D/T based on the entire challenge. As it is now, a challenge that requires you to find a D5/T5 cache, or a number of them, could be an LPC rated as D5/T1 - that doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

A multi-cache T rating is for the whole cache, not just the final box where the log is. To me, a challenge cache is the same, it just doesn't have specific waypoints leading up to it, rather a variety of ways to get to it, all of which have a particular T rating that will of course be more than the the T rating of the final box alone.

Edited May 13, 2017 by funkymunkyzone

[+Gill & Tony]

Every challenge-checker link has a difficulty rating, provided by Project-GC. How they rate them, I don't know, but their scale runs from 1-100, so you could create bands and say that 1-11 is D1, 12-22 is D1.5, 23-33 is D2, 34-44 is D2.5, 45-55 is D3, 56-66 is D3.5 67-77 is D4, 78-88 is D4.5 and 89-100 is D5.

 

Interestingly, I created my three distance challenges before there was a checker and I rated them as F3.5, D4 and D4.5 respectively. A checker was created and Project-GC rates them as 58, 73 and 82, which fits exactly into the scheme.

 

Look at My 10,000Km Challenge, scroll down a bit and the checker is there with the rating in the top left corner.

[+frinklabs]

[FEATURE] Challenge Stars

[+barefootjeff]

Every challenge-checker link has a difficulty rating, provided by Project-GC. How they rate them, I don't know, but their scale runs from 1-100, so you could create bands and say that 1-11 is D1, 12-22 is D1.5, 23-33 is D2, 34-44 is D2.5, 45-55 is D3, 56-66 is D3.5 67-77 is D4, 78-88 is D4.5 and 89-100 is D5.

 

Interestingly, I created my three distance challenges before there was a checker and I rated them as F3.5, D4 and D4.5 respectively. A checker was created and Project-GC rates them as 58, 73 and 82, which fits exactly into the scheme.

 

Look at My 10,000Km Challenge, scroll down a bit and the checker is there with the rating in the top left corner.

That's odd, the checker they did for me doesn't have that.

Edited May 13, 2017 by barefootjeff

[+Gill & Tony]

Every challenge-checker link has a difficulty rating, provided by Project-GC. How they rate them, I don't know, but their scale runs from 1-100, so you could create bands and say that 1-11 is D1, 12-22 is D1.5, 23-33 is D2, 34-44 is D2.5, 45-55 is D3, 56-66 is D3.5 67-77 is D4, 78-88 is D4.5 and 89-100 is D5.

 

Interestingly, I created my three distance challenges before there was a checker and I rated them as F3.5, D4 and D4.5 respectively. A checker was created and Project-GC rates them as 58, 73 and 82, which fits exactly into the scheme.

 

Look at My 10,000Km Challenge, scroll down a bit and the checker is there with the rating in the top left corner.

That's odd, the checker they did for me doesn't have that.

Maybe I should have said that every one I had seen.

 

Perhaps it depends on the checker's creator. I know there are some Project-GC folk on the forums, maybe one of them could clarify this.

[+barefootjeff]

Every challenge-checker link has a difficulty rating, provided by Project-GC. How they rate them, I don't know, but their scale runs from 1-100, so you could create bands and say that 1-11 is D1, 12-22 is D1.5, 23-33 is D2, 34-44 is D2.5, 45-55 is D3, 56-66 is D3.5 67-77 is D4, 78-88 is D4.5 and 89-100 is D5.

 

Interestingly, I created my three distance challenges before there was a checker and I rated them as F3.5, D4 and D4.5 respectively. A checker was created and Project-GC rates them as 58, 73 and 82, which fits exactly into the scheme.

 

Look at My 10,000Km Challenge, scroll down a bit and the checker is there with the rating in the top left corner.

That's odd, the checker they did for me doesn't have that.

Maybe I should have said that every one I had seen.

 

Perhaps it depends on the checker's creator. I know there are some Project-GC folk on the forums, maybe one of them could clarify this.

After a quick look on the forums, it seems this might be because the cache hasn't been published yet. It's not much help then as a guide to setting the D rating prior to publication.

[+ChrisDen]

The rating on the challenge checker link is calculated by running the checker against the finds of every registered cacher. It cannot be relied upon.

 

For example a challenge that requires you to find 5 caches in a specific county will have a higher difficulty rating on the checker link that one that requires you to find 5000 caches. This is because there are more cachers that have found 5 000 caches anywhere in the world that have found 5 caches in that small unknown county.

 

That being said it is still an indication that can be taken into account.

[+Gill & Tony]

Thanks for clarifying that for us.

[+WearyTraveler]

Rating them "accurately" is D5...

 

A lot is based on location too... the alpha challenge, finding cache names from a-z is relatively simple in an area with an active caching community. But out here, I have to travel a long way to get the ones needed.

I'm currently 1 cache away from qualifying for the alphanumeric challenge. The closest 6* is 3 hours drive. There are 3 6* huddled together about 2.5 hours away, but they're all above D4. So what would the challenge rating be? Logically (to me) it'd be different based on where the challenge cache is located.

 

There's an a-z in order challenge. I was up to r when I noticed a rock and roll based string in Kentucky. We went there and got a-z in order, in about 2 hours. So, if I lived in Inez, KY, or planned a visit anyway, that challenge would have been a D1 T1.5 for me... loving in Richmond, VA, it would be a lot higher...

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Rating them "accurately" is D5...

 

A lot is based on location too... the alpha challenge, finding cache names from a-z is relatively simple in an area with an active caching community. But out here, I have to travel a long way to get the ones needed.

I'm currently 1 cache away from qualifying for the alphanumeric challenge. The closest 6* is 3 hours drive. There are 3 6* huddled together about 2.5 hours away, but they're all bove D4. So what would the challenge rating be? Logically (to me) it'd be different based on where the challenge cache is located.

 

I wouldn't consider driving time or distance as a factor for determining the terrain rating, and especially not the D rating. What's a 6*?

 

Almost 15% of my finds are more than 1000 miles from home and I would expect that all of them to have a 5* rating. The furthest is 9415 miles away and is accurately rated a 1/1.

Edited May 13, 2017 by NYPaddleCacher

[+funkymunkyzone]

Rating them "accurately" is D5...

 

A lot is based on location too... the alpha challenge, finding cache names from a-z is relatively simple in an area with an active caching community. But out here, I have to travel a long way to get the ones needed.

I'm currently 1 cache away from qualifying for the alphanumeric challenge. The closest 6* is 3 hours drive. There are 3 6* huddled together about 2.5 hours away, but they're all bove D4. So what would the challenge rating be? Logically (to me) it'd be different based on where the challenge cache is located.

 

I wouldn't consider driving time or distance as a factor for determining the terrain rating, and especially not the D rating. What's a 6*?

 

Almost 15% of my finds are more than 1000 miles from home and I would expect that all of them to have a 5* rating. The furthest is 9415 miles away and is accurately rated a 1/1.

 

I can see where WearyTraveler is coming from - but I think you are both right but in different context. Any normal cache, say a traditional, is rated based on it's own context - where is the likely starting point, how difficult is the hide, etc. A 1/1 is rated because there it is close to the parking spot on paved ground, etc, regardless of whether it's 10000km from where I live - in essence it's only "locational context" is itself when determining it's D/T. A challenge cache on the other hand has it's own hide coordinates, which could be used in determining the D/T of completing the challenge. For example, a challenge cache located in Nebraska that requires a cache find on an oceanic coastline could quite reasonably be considered a very difficult challenge to complete - the challenge cache itself being placed a very long way from any ocean, meaning the qualifying find(s) relative to it are difficult to achieve. Does that make sense?

 

PS - the 6* I believe was in reference to the alphanumeric challenge - a cache beginning with the number 6.

Edited May 13, 2017 by funkymunkyzone

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Rating them "accurately" is D5...

 

A lot is based on location too... the alpha challenge, finding cache names from a-z is relatively simple in an area with an active caching community. But out here, I have to travel a long way to get the ones needed.

I'm currently 1 cache away from qualifying for the alphanumeric challenge. The closest 6* is 3 hours drive. There are 3 6* huddled together about 2.5 hours away, but they're all bove D4. So what would the challenge rating be? Logically (to me) it'd be different based on where the challenge cache is located.

 

I wouldn't consider driving time or distance as a factor for determining the terrain rating, and especially not the D rating. What's a 6*?

 

Almost 15% of my finds are more than 1000 miles from home and I would expect that all of them to have a 5* rating. The furthest is 9415 miles away and is accurately rated a 1/1.

 

I can see where WearyTraveler is coming from - but I think you are both right but in different context. Any normal cache, say a traditional, is rated based on it's own context - where is the likely starting point, how difficult is the hide, etc. A 1/1 is rated because there it is close to the parking spot on paved ground, etc, regardless of whether it's 10000km from where I live - in essence it's only "locational context" is itself when determining it's D/T. A challenge cache on the other hand has it's own hide coordinates, which could be used in determining the D/T of completing the challenge. For example, a challenge cache located in Nebraska that requires a cache find on an oceanic coastline could quite reasonably be considered a very difficult challenge to complete - the challenge cache itself being placed a very long way from any ocean, meaning the qualifying find(s) relative to it are difficult to achieve. Does that make sense?

 

Yes, actually, it does. I suppose a find a geocache in 5 countries in Europe (which could be done in a day) should have a lower rating than a find a geocache in 5 countries in the U.S. Where it might get confusing would be how to rate (comparitively) a find a geocache with a 1/1 rating in five countries. The difficulty in locating a 1/1 cache in each country might be higher but the actual find for each cache would be easier.

 

 

PS - the 6* I believe was in reference to the alphanumeric challenge - a cache beginning with the number 6.

 

That makes sense too. I was reading it as 6 star, not with the asterisk as a wildcard (match one or more characters)

 

[+WearyTraveler]

Rating them "accurately" is D5...

 

A lot is based on location too... the alpha challenge, finding cache names from a-z is relatively simple in an area with an active caching community. But out here, I have to travel a long way to get the ones needed.

I'm currently 1 cache away from qualifying for the alphanumeric challenge. The closest 6* is 3 hours drive. There are 3 6* huddled together about 2.5 hours away, but they're all bove D4. So what would the challenge rating be? Logically (to me) it'd be different based on where the challenge cache is located.

 

I wouldn't consider driving time or distance as a factor for determining the terrain rating, and especially not the D rating. What's a 6*?

 

Almost 15% of my finds are more than 1000 miles from home and I would expect that all of them to have a 5* rating. The furthest is 9415 miles away and is accurately rated a 1/1.

 

The 6* I referred to is a cache who's name begins with 6. A name like "6th time is the charm"

 

When I say D should be based on location I don't mean the 3 D4 caches I'm referring to. I'm referring to the region. Basically, qualifying for the alpha challenge is more difficult if the cache is placed in Maysville, WV than if placed in Inez, KY. It's much more difficult to find based on what region the challenge cache is in.

 

Just as qualifying for the 2 countries in a day cache is easier if the cache is in San Diego or somewhere in Waashington state...

[+barefootjeff]

The challenge I'm putting together is to find 20 Australian caches with the "takes more than 1 hour" attribute set, I guess as a bit of an incentive to find those often lonely caches at the opposite end of the spectrum to the instant gratification P&Gs. The are 815 qualifying caches to choose from, 98 of which are within 100km of GZ, so it's not that hard but will probably take some time to achieve so I'm thinking maybe D3?

 

Looking at the other post-moratorium challenges in Australia doesn't give me much of a feel as many are straight out D5 and some of the lower D ones don't seem to have much bearing on the difficulty of the challenge.

[+WearyTraveler]

The challenge I'm putting together is to find 20 Australian caches with the "takes more than 1 hour" attribute set, I guess as a bit of an incentive to find those often lonely caches at the opposite end of the spectrum to the instant gratification P&Gs. The are 815 qualifying caches to choose from, 98 of which are within 100km of GZ, so it's not that hard but will probably take some time to achieve so I'm thinking maybe D3?

 

Looking at the other post-moratorium challenges in Australia doesn't give me much of a feel as many are straight out D5 and some of the lower D ones don't seem to have much bearing on the difficulty of the challenge.

 

20 caches that take more than an hour? Ouch... I'd think at least a D3. Consider higher? Because any cache with an hour's hike would probably have at least a D3 or a T3... likely higher.

 

Yours would be a great long term caching goal.

[+barefootjeff]

The challenge I'm putting together is to find 20 Australian caches with the "takes more than 1 hour" attribute set, I guess as a bit of an incentive to find those often lonely caches at the opposite end of the spectrum to the instant gratification P&Gs. The are 815 qualifying caches to choose from, 98 of which are within 100km of GZ, so it's not that hard but will probably take some time to achieve so I'm thinking maybe D3?

 

Looking at the other post-moratorium challenges in Australia doesn't give me much of a feel as many are straight out D5 and some of the lower D ones don't seem to have much bearing on the difficulty of the challenge.

 

20 caches that take more than an hour? Ouch... I'd think at least a D3. Consider higher? Because any cache with an hour's hike would probably have at least a D3 or a T3... likely higher.

 

Yours would be a great long term caching goal.

It's not necessarily an hour's hiking - one of mine with that attribute just has multiple waypoints spread out over a large area - but yes, most would I suppose, although an hour's hiking is only 2km each way at most. Looking at my own ten hides with that attribute, the majority are T3, with a few 3.5s, a 4 and a couple of T5s that require a boat. But I'm having a hard time putting a scale on the difficulty rating for the challenge - it's obviously not a D1 or a D5 but where does it sit in between? I don't think it's anywhere near as hard as a grid-filling challenge or one that requires visiting multiple states or countries and there are plenty of qualifying caches within reasonable driving distance of GZ to choose from. It's more about time, which is what this challenge is about anyway, but how does that equate to difficulty?

[+WearyTraveler]

The challenge I'm putting together is to find 20 Australian caches with the "takes more than 1 hour" attribute set, I guess as a bit of an incentive to find those often lonely caches at the opposite end of the spectrum to the instant gratification P&Gs. The are 815 qualifying caches to choose from, 98 of which are within 100km of GZ, so it's not that hard but will probably take some time to achieve so I'm thinking maybe D3?

 

Looking at the other post-moratorium challenges in Australia doesn't give me much of a feel as many are straight out D5 and some of the lower D ones don't seem to have much bearing on the difficulty of the challenge.

 

20 caches that take more than an hour? Ouch... I'd think at least a D3. Consider higher? Because any cache with an hour's hike would probably have at least a D3 or a T3... likely higher.

 

Yours would be a great long term caching goal.

It's not necessarily an hour's hiking - one of mine with that attribute just has multiple waypoints spread out over a large area - but yes, most would I suppose, although an hour's hiking is only 2km each way at most. Looking at my own ten hides with that attribute, the majority are T3, with a few 3.5s, a 4 and a couple of T5s that require a boat. But I'm having a hard time putting a scale on the difficulty rating for the challenge - it's obviously not a D1 or a D5 but where does it sit in between? I don't think it's anywhere near as hard as a grid-filling challenge or one that requires visiting multiple states or countries and there are plenty of qualifying caches within reasonable driving distance of GZ to choose from. It's more about time, which is what this challenge is about anyway, but how does that equate to difficulty?

 

The way I see it (and it's just my opinion) is that the challenge cache should have the D and T of the hardest cache you need to qualify. If I've got to find a D5/T4 in order to qualify, then the challenge cache itself was a D5/T4.

 

To me, finding the challenge cache itself has been relatively low d/t on that container, but to qualify to log a find was much harder over rougher terrain.

 

Also - to me, finding 20 caches, regardless of d/t, is much harder than finding 1 (the challenge cache), so I'd look for it to be rated higher than if it were just a GRC or some such...

 

And most challenges I've read state that the rating are for the qualifiers and the cache isn't self was an easy one...

 

But - whatever rating it has, its pretty much irrelevant unless you're looking to fill in the d/t matrix on the profile (or qualify for a challenge cache).

 

As I said in a previous post somewhere, challenge caches just give me a goal to accomplish regardless of the ratings...

[+barefootjeff]

The challenge I'm putting together is to find 20 Australian caches with the "takes more than 1 hour" attribute set, I guess as a bit of an incentive to find those often lonely caches at the opposite end of the spectrum to the instant gratification P&Gs. The are 815 qualifying caches to choose from, 98 of which are within 100km of GZ, so it's not that hard but will probably take some time to achieve so I'm thinking maybe D3?

 

Looking at the other post-moratorium challenges in Australia doesn't give me much of a feel as many are straight out D5 and some of the lower D ones don't seem to have much bearing on the difficulty of the challenge.

 

20 caches that take more than an hour? Ouch... I'd think at least a D3. Consider higher? Because any cache with an hour's hike would probably have at least a D3 or a T3... likely higher.

 

Yours would be a great long term caching goal.

It's not necessarily an hour's hiking - one of mine with that attribute just has multiple waypoints spread out over a large area - but yes, most would I suppose, although an hour's hiking is only 2km each way at most. Looking at my own ten hides with that attribute, the majority are T3, with a few 3.5s, a 4 and a couple of T5s that require a boat. But I'm having a hard time putting a scale on the difficulty rating for the challenge - it's obviously not a D1 or a D5 but where does it sit in between? I don't think it's anywhere near as hard as a grid-filling challenge or one that requires visiting multiple states or countries and there are plenty of qualifying caches within reasonable driving distance of GZ to choose from. It's more about time, which is what this challenge is about anyway, but how does that equate to difficulty?

 

The way I see it (and it's just my opinion) is that the challenge cache should have the D and T of the hardest cache you need to qualify. If I've got to find a D5/T4 in order to qualify, then the challenge cache itself was a D5/T4.

 

To me, finding the challenge cache itself has been relatively low d/t on that container, but to qualify to log a find was much harder over rougher terrain.

 

Also - to me, finding 20 caches, regardless of d/t, is much harder than finding 1 (the challenge cache), so I'd look for it to be rated higher than if it were just a GRC or some such...

 

And most challenges I've read state that the rating are for the qualifiers and the cache isn't self was an easy one...

 

But - whatever rating it has, its pretty much irrelevant unless you're looking to fill in the d/t matrix on the profile (or qualify for a challenge cache).

 

As I said in a previous post somewhere, challenge caches just give me a goal to accomplish regardless of the ratings...

With 815 qualifying caches to choose from and only 20 needed, it's a bit hard to say what the hardest one is - there are 155 of them with both D and T 2.5 or less and 89 with both less than or equal to 2. It'll take longer to find those 20 caches than it would be to find one, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it's harder.

 

Anyway the whole thing may well be moot as I've just had a talk to the park ranger and she's not too keen on where I wanted to put the cache. She's going to discuss it with her manager and get back to me in a couple of weeks, but I got the impression that in spite of having a policy that's supposed to encourage caching as a recognised national park use, they don't want any in their park.

[+redsox_mark]

 

To be honest, I don't actually get why the D is for the challenge (and therefore effectively based on the D of all the cache finds needed to qualify, possibly plus a bit more) but the T is only for the physical box for the challenge cache. In my mind it should be one or the other - D/T simply the rating for finding the physical cache for the challenge cache, or D/T based on the entire challenge. As it is now, a challenge that requires you to find a D5/T5 cache, or a number of them, could be an LPC rated as D5/T1 - that doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

 

Ideally, a challenge cache would have two sets of ratings, one for the challenge, and one for the cache. But with just one rating, I think the method in the guidelines makes sense. And it is all about this cache - the challenge cache.

 

The challenge cache is more difficult than if the same cache was non-challenge, as one needs to complete the challenge. I.e. the challenge makes the D of this cache more difficult. But the challenge doesn't make the terrain of this cache more difficult.

[+WearyTraveler]

To be honest, when I'm looking through challenge caches, I look at the description to see how "hard" it's going to be to qualify for as well as reading it to see if the CO has talked about the physical d/t of the cache.

 

When you come right down to it, a challenge cache is pretty much nothing more than a traditional cache with ALR...

[+thebruce0]

When you come right down to it, a challenge cache is pretty much nothing more than a traditional cache with ALR...

That's exactly what it is. (unless it's a Mystery as one of the few I've seen where there's also a puzzle involved to locate the cache coordinates; but I can't remember if those I've seen were post-moratorium or not). But ALR - yep. And the Challenge Cache is the one physical cache style that has that exception (virtuals/ECs/webcams are technically a different class of cache requiring a non-"container finding" task in order to log as found).

 

Personally, I see the D of the Challenge defined as a mix of either/or from the ratings of the caches required to qualify to the difficulty of creating the qualification plan - that is, locating qualifying caches, or the amount of work needed to get to all the qualifying caches (if say they are very rare) -- plus a whole lot of subjective CO judgement.

Ultimately, there's no surefire way to "rate" a challenge cache difficulty, since as typical of cache placement, one person's 4.5 may be another person's 1.5. Understanding what constitutes the D rating of any specific cache usually fares better the more you understand the thinking of the cacher who placed it.

 

frinklabs pointed out the 'challenge stars' concept, but without that, I tend to find it simply quite helpful to also list the D and T of the cache itself in the description, so that if you do hide a "Find 50 DT 5/5 caches" you can rate it 5/5 even though you may have placed the cache under a lamp skirt beside which can you park at 1m.

 

Personally, for that example (50x 5/5's w/ the final as an LPC) I'd likely rate it at 5/1:

1. Locating and targeting 50 5/5s would not be easy (in most any area of the world)

2. Getting to all 50 5/5's would not be easy (planning from the 1st to the last, whether over a week or a year)

3. By doing the 50 5/5's you've already experienced 50 T5's.

4. A T5 also for an LPC seems vastly out of place and/or redundant.

5. Thus I'd give D5 for this particular challenge, and T1 for this particular finding experience.

 

But it's easier to rate extreme end hard or easy caches. It's the mid-range ones that are probably more difficult to nail down. Maybe a D3 for that CO task

Edited May 15, 2017 by thebruce0