Geocaches language description

[+bobim6]

Hi everyone,

 

In the last past months I could see that many of the caches hidden in various countries (e.g. Czech) do not have the description in English. How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?

 

In Romania, the country from where I am, most of the caches that I have found have also the descriptions and hints in English so other persons can find them.

 

Is there a possibility to add also an English description for the caches that are in other languages?

 

Thank you in advance!

 

Bobim6

[+Touchstone]

Hi everyone,

 

In the last past months I could see that many of the caches hidden in various countries (e.g. Czech) do not have the description in English. How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?

 

In Romania, the country from where I am, most of the caches that I have found have also the descriptions and hints in English so other persons can find them.

 

Is there a possibility to add also an English description for the caches that are in other languages?

 

Thank you in advance!

 

Bobim6

 

It would be up to the individual cache owners to do so, and there is no requirement (nor do I think that there ever will be) for Descriptions and Hints to be in any particular language.

 

I just tend to roll with it, and do the best I can, and if I'm really dying of curiosity, I'll copy/paste into an online translator to get some idea what the Description is about.

 

Good luck!

[+narcissa]

The onus is on the geocacher to be prepared. It's not reasonable to expect the entire world to cater to English monoglots.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Hi everyone,

 

In the last past months I could see that many of the caches hidden in various countries (e.g. Czech) do not have the description in English. How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?

 

In Romania, the country from where I am, most of the caches that I have found have also the descriptions and hints in English so other persons can find them.

 

Is there a possibility to add also an English description for the caches that are in other languages?

 

Thank you in advance!

Bobim6

 

I suspect that if a cache description doesn't have a description in English it's because the cache owner doesn't speak English (or at least, not very well). Adding an English description would many would likely resort to using a translation site (e.g. google translate). If a translation service is going to be used, those that want to find a cache with a non-English description could just as easily use the translation service.

 

I have found caches in many different countries and always make sure that I translate anything I might need before leaving home. BTW, one of my colleagues (in the U.S.) just left his job here last week and moved to Romania.

[cezanne]

The onus is on the geocacher to be prepared. It's not reasonable to expect the entire world to cater to English monoglots.

 

Most cachers who would like to see more caches with an English description come from Europe and speak typically more than one foreign language.

To refer to them as ENglish monoglots is not appropriate at all.

 

What the OP reports from Romania has also been the case in the early times of geocaching in my country and also in Slovenia.

As soon as the cache density increased and/or national reviewers showed up, the number of caches with an English description went down considerably.

 

Being prepared does not really help that much. Online translators typically produce garbage and I certainly do not have the time to

study the language of each country I'm going to visit for a few days. There are so many languages in Europe within a very small area.

English is the best choice for communication in this setting and is not chosen to serve cachers with mother tongue English.

 

Of course not every cacher is able to offer English descriptions. It would already be very helpful if one third of those who are quite proficient in English offer

English descriptions.

 

Cezanne

[+CanadianRockies]

In the last past months I could see that many of the caches hidden in various countries (e.g. Czech) do not have the description in English. How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?

One of the first things I learned after I started geocaching is that I don't have to find every cache that is out there. Such a perspective makes this activity much more enjoyable.

 

You can skip caches that don't have descriptions and hints written in English.

 

You can use online translators to get an English (sort of) version of descriptions/hints that you don't understand.

 

You can try to meet up with a local geocacher who understands English and the local language(s).

 

You can attempt to search for caches (traditionals are usually easiest) without using the descriptions/hints.

[+T.D.M.22]

Hi everyone,

 

In the last past months I could see that many of the caches hidden in various countries (e.g. Czech) do not have the description in English. How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?

 

In Romania, the country from where I am, most of the caches that I have found have also the descriptions and hints in English so other persons can find them.

 

Is there a possibility to add also an English description for the caches that are in other languages?

 

Thank you in advance!

 

Bobim6

 

You want all caches on English? That's a bit....big headed. I suppose you want to go to France and have all signs on English? Or how about Germany? Every time someone talks to you they should ask if you want to speak English? Won't happen- cachers are free to post on any language. Your request could at least be to translate them to many languages, not just one.

[+hzoi]

Many of the older caches outside the US are in English, since the geocaching website was formerly availabe only in English. So, many of the early adopters necessarily had at least some grasp of English, and the tendency was either to have English-only or English and local language descriptions. Pretty sure that most of the early reviewers were English speakers as well, so theymay have required English descriptions.

 

Over time, the game has globalized, the site is available in non-English versions, and there are local reviewers in many countries. Thus, non-English caches.

 

We cached for two years in Europe and managed to find hundreds of caches that weren't in English. It just required more preparation. I would typically use Google translate and then try to abbreviate the description as much as I could, then write it on a separate sheet. Now that I have a GPSr that supports paperless caching, I edit the cache descriptions in GSAK and paste in the English translations.

 

I keep hoping that someone better at programming than I will write a GSAK macro to auto translate, but I haven't seen one yet. (If anyone knows of one, please feel free to post and let me know!)

[+hzoi]

OK - to answer my own post, there is a GSAK macro. My phone doesn't want to let me paste the link, so just google "GSAK translation macro."

[+TerraViators]

I believe that earthcache guidelines request an English translation.

[+MartyBartfast]

 

You want all caches on English? That's a bit....big headed. I

 

Not really, the OP is Romanian (or didn't you read that bit?). What he's basically asking for is that there should be a cache description in a lingua franca, so that everyone everywhere can read all cache descriptions. Unfortunately Esperanto never really took off and English (for better or worse) is the lingua franca for almost all international activities (e.g. air traffic control), and so it would seem reasonable that English might be used on caches.

 

Personally, though I am English, I prefer the challenge of reading caches in their native language when I've done them as it provides a little opportunity for learning the lingo.

[cezanne]

I suspect that if a cache description doesn't have a description in English it's because the cache owner doesn't speak English (or at least, not very well).

 

That's wrong for many more cases than it might appear to you. I know so many cache owners who are fluent in English and do not offer English descriptions and I've also encountered the situation that

my offer to provide an English description has be turned down too (one of the frequent reasons provided was that bilingual descriptions are longer).

 

It is relatively frequent that European cachers come to this forum and are quite eloquent when using the English language in forum discussions, but do not own a single cache that is available in English.

 

If a translation service is going to be used, those that want to find a cache with a non-English description could just as easily use the translation service.

 

That's true, but there are many cachers out there who can do much better than what such services provide.

 

I'm not in favour of a requirement for an English description, but I would welcome if a higher proportion of those who could easily provide ENglish descriptions

would go ahead.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited July 8, 2014 by cezanne

[+narcissa]

I believe that earthcache guidelines request an English translation.

 

Not any longer. Earthcaches are to be published in the local language.

[cezanne]

Personally, though I am English, I prefer the challenge of reading caches in their native language when I've done them as it provides a little opportunity for learning the lingo.

 

So tell me whether you can understand the Slovak logs for this cache

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2Q01F_po-stopach-lahkeho-opevnenia-2?guid=190002ef-e88e-4b7f-978d-e1cfdea0011c

(I know that this thread is about cache descriptions and not logs, the example above just came up my mind because I'm came across it a few days ago.)

 

Automatic translation gets even worse when accents are not used which is common when typing on standard keyboards.

 

How many complex caches have you done abroad in countries with languages you do not know? My favourite caches have more than one stage and depend heavily on the description.

Edited July 8, 2014 by cezanne

[+MartyBartfast]

Well google translate does a good enough job that I can figure out the last person to find it before your DNF: turned up, there was someone around the bunker so they went off and did 2 more caches and when they got back to the bunker the other people had gone and they then had a quick find, they wanted to go into the bunker but were put off by all the rubbish/junk so didn't go in.

[cezanne]

Well google translate does a good enough job that I can figure out the last person to find it before your DNF: turned up, there was someone around the bunker so they went off and did 2 more caches and when they got back to the bunker the other people had gone and they then had a quick find, they wanted to go into the bunker but were put off by all the rubbish/junk so didn't go in.

 

I arrived at the same conclusion, but was more ambitious and wanted to understand in detail all logs.

 

Another example: Take a cache like this one (a cache well suited for tourists)

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC1VCKY_schlossberg-his-story

 

I could do a much better job than Google translate and nevertheless the cache owner rejected my offer to provide an English description he could add to the cache description (he would be able to translate the text himself, but I thought that he might not want to invest the time and thus made my offer).

Edited July 8, 2014 by cezanne

[+MartyBartfast]

Well google translate does a good enough job that I can figure out the last person to find it before your DNF: turned up, there was someone around the bunker so they went off and did 2 more caches and when they got back to the bunker the other people had gone and they then had a quick find, they wanted to go into the bunker but were put off by all the rubbish/junk so didn't go in.

 

I arrived at the same conclusion, but was more ambitious and wanted to understand in detail all logs.

 

But while asking for cache descriptions to have an English translation might be reasonable, asking that all logs are in English is absolutely not.

[+MartyBartfast]

Also consider that if the cache description is going to have an English translation, you will be either relying on the CO's language skills to write the translation and their English might be very bad and the translation could be misleading, or else they will use Google Translate (or similar) in which case you can do as good a job yourself...

[cezanne]

Well google translate does a good enough job that I can figure out the last person to find it before your DNF: turned up, there was someone around the bunker so they went off and did 2 more caches and when they got back to the bunker the other people had gone and they then had a quick find, they wanted to go into the bunker but were put off by all the rubbish/junk so didn't go in.

 

I arrived at the same conclusion, but was more ambitious and wanted to understand in detail all logs.

 

But while asking for cache descriptions to have an English translation might be reasonable, asking that all logs are in English is absolutely not.

 

I just wanted to demonstrate the bad quality of automatic translations with my example.

I certainly do not expect all logs to be in English, but the bad quality of automatic translations is an argument for me to write almost all my logs in English to at least provide all the caches I visit with a

cache-specific English log. There are far than enough local language logs anyway.

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

Also consider that if the cache description is going to have an English translation, you will be either relying on the CO's language skills to write the translation and their English might be very bad and the translation could be misleading, or else they will use Google Translate (or similar) in which case you can do as good a job yourself...

 

As I said I'm not in favour of making English descriptions mandatory. I just would welcome if more cachers that are sufficiently proficient in English or are offered help from others with the translation process

included English descriptions. That's something completely different.

Edited July 8, 2014 by cezanne

[+JPreto]

If you come to Brazil not many caches are written in English.. and logs most in Portuguese. GroundSepak cannot force someone to speak a language they can´t!

 

I try to write always in English because is the most common language among the geocachers that play in Brazil, since most of them are foreigners. When the most are Brazilians I will start to write my logs in Portuguese!

[+redsox_mark]

OK - to answer my own post, there is a GSAK macro. My phone doesn't want to let me paste the link, so just google "GSAK translation macro."

 

Thanks, I'll try that out.

 

This topic comes up occasionally, and interestingly usually from a non-English speaker.

 

Anyway - as an English speaker, sure I appreciate it when there is an English translation. But I don't expect it. If the cache owner knows English and wishes to add English, great. I've seen some caches with (good) translations into several different languages. Though I agree if the owner doesn't know the language there is no point in them providing an automatically translated one - the finder can do that themselves.

 

I will generally look at caches in advance and translate at least the hint. I tend to avoid multis and puzzles which are not in English, as usually an automatic translation doesn't work well enough and I fail to solve it. I've sometimes enlisted local help though. I remember asking someone in a bar in Germany to translate what was the German word for "checksum". They recognized it as a German word but didn't know what it meant, which is understandable.

 

I've done a couple of Wherigo caches where the owner provided both a local language version and an English one, which was great. Again not expected.

[cezanne]

This topic comes up occasionally, and interestingly usually from a non-English speaker.

 

That's not surprising at all. In continental Europe there are so many countries with different languages close to each other and

English which is taught at school for several years is the central language of communication between people with different languages.

So it is quite likely that someone from Russia and Serbia, someone from Austria and Croatia, from Hungary and Romania etc talk

English to each other. Of course there are countries where the level of proficiency in English is higher and others where it is lower.

Typically, in East Europe, the Netherlands and Scandinavia one can expect more people to have a reasonable level of English than say

in Italy.

 

I will generally look at caches in advance and translate at least the hint. I tend to avoid multis and puzzles which are not in English, as usually an automatic translation doesn't work well enough and I fail to solve it. I've sometimes enlisted local help though. I remember asking someone in a bar in Germany to translate what was the German word for "checksum". They recognized it as a German word but didn't know what it meant, which is understandable.

 

That's exactly the point I tried to make and this is why I think that it makes sense to add English descriptions in particular for multi caches if the cache owner is either able to come up with a decent translation or gets help from someone else.

The nice multi cache I referred to further up in this thread is a good example of a multi cache that is perfectly suitable for tourists and I would have provided a translation which also would have helped those for whom

English is a foreign language. (For example, I would not have used the term allen key as this is hardly known to non native speakers).

 

In my personal experience it is much more an issue of the lacking will to add an English description than an issue of lacking language proficiency. There is no other explanation for the fact that the only cased

where translations provided by me actually ended up in the cache descriptions are Earth caches before the change of the guidelines.

 

 

Cezanne

[+dprovan]

I'm not in favour of a requirement for an English description, but I would welcome if a higher proportion of those who could easily provide ENglish descriptions would go ahead.

What cezanne said. I want to kiss the COs that provide English translations. I'm particularly grateful when they alert near the beginning of the description that it will be repeated in English further down. But I accept unconditionally any CO's decision to use only the local language.

[+CanadianRockies]

What he's basically asking for is that there should be a cache description in a lingua franca, so that everyone everywhere can read all cache descriptions.

But not everyone everywhere can read English.

[+hzoi]

For that matter, not everyone everwhere can read at all. I don't think that means we need to adopt pictograms.

[+narcissa]

This is something that needs to be at the cache owner's discretion.

 

If I can't read the local language in a place I'm visiting, that's my failing - not the cache's owner's.

[cezanne]

What he's basically asking for is that there should be a cache description in a lingua franca, so that everyone everywhere can read all cache descriptions.

But not everyone everywhere can read English.

 

But the OP just asked about the possbility to add an English description in addition. This does not harm anyone who cannot read English.

 

I still think that if there existed a possibility to separate language versions and have displayed only one, many more cache owners would be willing to include an English description in addition.

I recall that as early as 2003 several European cachers (I have been involved too) have asked for such a feature. On the opencaching network this has been later implemented based on my request, but Groundspeak never made a move towards multi-lingual support. They did not even add an attribute for English description available which would be very easy to implement. When I see how many attributes have been added over the years and how rarely some of those occur, it shows me that the language issue apparently is not fully understood in the US.

 

Cezanne

[+MartyBartfast]

They did not even add an attribute for English description available which would be very easy to implement.

 

Cezanne

 

Now that's a good idea.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Also consider that if the cache description is going to have an English translation, you will be either relying on the CO's language skills to write the translation and their English might be very bad and the translation could be misleading, or else they will use Google Translate (or similar) in which case you can do as good a job yourself...

 

As I said I'm not in favour of making English descriptions mandatory. I just would welcome if more cachers that are sufficiently proficient in English or are offered help from others with the translation process

included English descriptions. That's something completely different.

 

Hmm... I should consider Spanish translations, since so many of my caches are in heavily hispanic areas... I managed fairly well in French Canada with my high school French. Though I did not do too well with a cache only in French...

Yes. Google Translate can be quite terrible. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the company COO used Google Translate to translate memos into Spanish. I contended that I work for a company called OCT (Obsessive Compulsive Transition). Google translated OCT Team to Equipo octubre. And the COO never noticed! Now she gets someone to check the translations.

Do not rely on Google Translate!

[+narcissa]

Google Translate is great for casual use, but it is obviously ridiculous to use it for professional applications.

[cezanne]

Google Translate is great for casual use, but it is obviously ridiculous to use it for professional applications.

 

In my opinion it is far from great for casual use, but of course it is much better than nothing.

Of course it also depends on the nature of the text to be translated and on the involved languages.

 

I would not refer to the use in geocaching as professional application, but would never rely on a Google translation for

a complex multi cache, mystery cache or Earthcache. Simple texts I can easily translate also by means of a dictionary. The challenge comes from the more complicated ones and from missing accents, typos etc.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Google Translate is great for casual use, but it is obviously ridiculous to use it for professional applications.

 

I wouldn't say that. One of the projects that I work on (my boss was the original developer) is an open source semantic web application. It's in use by dozens of universities and other organizations and my role with project, among other things, is sort of a liaison/consultant/developer on the project for use in the domestic and international agriculture research community. It's currently in use at both the US Department of Agriculture and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN.

 

In one of recent releases, multi-language support was added. Basically every text string used in the system was extracted into a "language bundle" (in English). We used Google Translate to create an initial pass for a Spanish version. When a system has internationalization support each "language" is defined as a "Locale". For example, Spanish in Spain would be es_ES, while Spanish in Mexico is es_MX. For the google translation we created we used a pseudo Locale of es_GO (Spanish in Google). Some colleagues in Mexico took the es_GO bundle, and using the English bundle (en_US) for reference, cleaned up the translation to create a es_MX bundle. From what I was told, most of the es_GO text strings did not have to be changed so the initial translation into Google Spanish saved a lot of time to create an official es_MX translation. That's now part of the official language bundle download. I also have a first pass of a translation into Chinese Simplified and I know work is underway for a German translation. I need to find someone to work on a French version and other languages as well.

 

[+narcissa]

cleaned up the translation

 

[+hzoi]

Google Translate is great for casual use, but it is obviously ridiculous to use it for professional applications.

 

I wouldn't say that.

I would. I used it to translate an asylum application when I was writing a legal research paper. I'd say Google was the 70% solution. It did help me key in on general areas -- but to pull specific quotations, I was actually better off translating the sentences myself, even though my German is not exactly great.

 

That was a couple years ago, so I would now say it's up to the 75% solution. But for "professional application," I'd expect better than a 1 in 4 error rate.

[+CanadianRockies]

What he's basically asking for is that there should be a cache description in a lingua franca, so that everyone everywhere can read all cache descriptions.

But not everyone everywhere can read English.

But the OP just asked about the possbility to add an English description in addition. This does not harm anyone who cannot read English.

Adding an English description still won't allow everyone everywhere to read all cache descriptions. It would allow more people in more places to read more cache descriptions, but that's different from everyone/everywhere/all.

[+Paganmen]

If you are going to travel then look up caches in advance. You can download it to your gps and also print out the pages you need. You can easily cut and paste another language into Google Translate or any other translation site. I've done that with Spanish cache pages when going to South America.

[cezanne]

If you are going to travel then look up caches in advance. You can download it to your gps and also print out the pages you need. You can easily cut and paste another language into Google Translate or any other translation site. I've done that with Spanish cache pages when going to South America.

 

Apparently you have found 0 multi caches and 0 mysteries in South America.

 

I'm sure that the OP is very well aware of the existence of automatic translation programs. Still an English description provided my cache owners who are sufficiently proficient in English (and their number in Europe is not neglectable) will be highly preferable to what automatic translation routines deliver and this plays a large role for more complex caches.

 

I somehow get tired that whenever such threads are started (almost exclusively by Europeans whose native language is not English) the suggestions/comments that come up most frequently are

- use automatic translation

- not everyone can English (which is known by all of us anyway)

- one should use Chinese as there are so many Chinese people

- automatic translation works well for me (but I search only traditionals when the description is a language I do not know).

 

It is very hard to get through with any sort of idea that might increase the number of cachers who provide an additional English description or with any sort of idea that makes it easier to at least select

those caches which have been provided with an English version. For example, as a tourist I would give up in my city as only very few multi caches and mysteries have an English description and it is hard to find those. After looking at 10 such caches with only a German version, many will give up.

 

It should also be taken account that the situation of visiting caches in countries with different languages will usually arise much more often for European cachers. For example, Slovenia and Hungary are closer to my home than Vienna, Austria's capital which is a 2 hours drive from my home. I will never ever in my life find the time and motivation to learn Slovenian, Hungarian, Slovak, Czech, Croatian etc. If I happen to have spare time, I rather would spend it on languages that appeal more to me. English is just the best available way of communication in such settings, in and outside of geocaching which does not mean that is is something for everyone. When I visit mountain regions for caching, I typically drive farther than if I'd go to Slovenia. There are people who commute from there to my home town for work every day. That's a different setting than traveling once in the vacation to South America.

 

Cezanne

[+CanadianRockies]

I somehow get tired that whenever such threads are started (almost exclusively by Europeans whose native language is not English) the suggestions/comments that come up most frequently are

- use automatic translation

- not everyone can English (which is known by all of us anyway)

- one should use Chinese as there are so many Chinese people

- automatic translation works well for me (but I search only traditionals when the description is a language I do not know).

This is a discussion forum, and those comments are valid points to make during such discussions.

 

Would requiring every cache description to include an English translation have benefits? Sure. But it also would have costs, such as the inconveniences it would impose on many cache hiders and reviewers.

 

Are the benefits worth more than the costs? That's certainly debatable.

 

With the availability of automatic translation, the benefits aren't as great as one might imagine. And with English not being a universal language, the benefits again aren't as great as some might think (and the costs are greater). And if many geocachers are happy to find traditional caches while traveling, then automatic translation often might be sufficient for many.

 

The existing guidelines won't appease everyone, but then nothing ever will. It's often about tradeoffs and balance. Costs versus benefits.

Edited July 10, 2014 by CanadianRockies

[+NYPaddleCacher]

cleaned up the translation

 

 

What's your point? I said that *some* clean up had to be done. I don't know it was 70% or 75%, as hzoi suggests, but it save a substantial amount of time. Instead of having someone read 200+ text strings, then type in the equivalent in Spanish, we fed all of the strings into the translation service and got an output in seconds. Then all someone had to do was verify that the English was translated into Spanish correctly, and for the small percentage when it wasn't, edit to the the output to provide the correct translation. It saved a *lot* of typing.

[cezanne]

I somehow get tired that whenever such threads are started (almost exclusively by Europeans whose native language is not English) the suggestions/comments that come up most frequently are

- use automatic translation

- not everyone can English (which is known by all of us anyway)

- one should use Chinese as there are so many Chinese people

- automatic translation works well for me (but I search only traditionals when the description is a language I do not know).

This is a discussion forum, and those comments are valid points to make during such discussions.

 

Yes, but it gets boring if the same (trivial and obvious) comments are made each time in such threads and many times (I'm following them now since almost 12 years) and it appears to

be impossible to discuss about the key issues that arise in the European setting.

Everyone who starts a thread like this one knows that automatic translation software exists and in none of the threads I have in mind the OP asked for a mandatory English description.

And the suggestion to use Chinese is quite sarcastic when European cachers bring up an issue that comes up frequently in Europe. Consider e.g. the neighbouring countries of Romania - it is evident that English is the best choice to serve all of them and dominates any other language regardless of how many people have a certain language as their mother tongue.

 

 

Would requiring every cache description to include an English translation have benefits? Sure. But it also would have costs, such as the inconveniences it would impose on many cache hiders and reviewers.

 

Actually, I do not think that requiring an English translation for each cache would be benefitial with the exception of Earthcaches where it is certainly a matter of debate.

 

 

Are the benefits worth more than the costs? That's certainly debatable.

 

As I said above I'm not in favor of requiring English descriptions and I think it would create an unnecessary obstacle for cacher hiders with many good ideas who are not proficient in English and do not want to ask someone for help or cannot find someone.

Moreover, there are caches anyway for which knowledge of the local language is necessary and caches that will hardly arise the interest of foreigners (not true in border regions).

 

With the availability of automatic translation, the benefits aren't as great as one might imagine. And with English not being a universal language, the benefits again aren't as great as some might think (and the costs are greater). And if many geocachers are happy to find traditional caches while traveling, then automatic translation often might be sufficient for many.

 

About which costs are you talking?

 

Do you think that for example adding an attribute for "English description available" (has been suggested several times, but Groundspeak never commented on the suggestion) does cost that much?

So many attributes which occur more rarely have been added over time.

 

It might well be that my other suggestion to offer the possibility to separate language versions on the cache page

(have a look at www.opencaching.de to see what I mean) might induce some cost, but if so, someone could have answered in one of the numerous threads since 2003 that it is too costly.

 

My ideas are centred around motivating more cachers who have the required ability to provide English descriptions or to react positively if someone else prepares a translation. Right now many cache owners reject because they do not want to clutter up their cache pages. It would be much more efficient to have a way to share translations for cache pages once they are done. For example, if you invested a lot of time to translate an Spanish page into an English text for yourself you could offer the cache owner your translation and everyone else could profit from the translation once it gets on the cache page.

 

 

 

The existing guidelines won't appease everyone, but then nothing ever will. It's often about tradeoffs and balance. Costs versus benefits.

 

I do not want to change the guidelines for caches (Earthcaches are a seperate topic) and I repeated many times that I'm not in favour of mandatory English cache descriptions.

 

What I'd appreciate is however if at least part of the focus in such threads were on potential measures that could help that more cachers create voluntarily English versions and make them available on the cache pages. If cacher owners know that others can filter out descriptions with an English version, it increases the motivation to provide an English version in areas where most caches only have a local language version as then the few caches are findable.

 

If some ideas are infeasible due to the costs or other reasons (it would be nice however to have a comment on that)

then one might try to come up with new ideas that might ultimately lead to some improvement for the target group.

Telling the target group the obvious things, does not really contribute to any sort of progress on a matter that first came up in 2003.

 

Cezanne

[+CanadianRockies]

I somehow get tired that whenever such threads are started (almost exclusively by Europeans whose native language is not English) the suggestions/comments that come up most frequently are

- use automatic translation

- not everyone can English (which is known by all of us anyway)

- one should use Chinese as there are so many Chinese people

- automatic translation works well for me (but I search only traditionals when the description is a language I do not know).

This is a discussion forum, and those comments are valid points to make during such discussions.

Yes, but it gets boring if the same (trivial and obvious) comments are made each time in such threads and many times (I'm following them now since almost 12 years) and it appears to be impossible to discuss about the key issues that arise in the European setting.

Everyone who starts a thread like this one knows that automatic translation software exists and in none of the threads I have in mind the OP asked for a mandatory English description.

In this thread, the OP seemed to suggest a mandatory English description. Specifically, they asked: "Is there a possibility to add also an English description for the caches that are in other languages?"

 

If the OP was merely inquiring whether it's possible to voluntarily add an English description, then the obvious answer is: "Yes, that's possible right now."

 

Would requiring every cache description to include an English translation have benefits? Sure. But it also would have costs, such as the inconveniences it would impose on many cache hiders and reviewers.

Actually, I do not think that requiring an English translation for each cache would be benefitial with the exception of Earthcaches where it is certainly a matter of debate.

I think it's clear that requiring an English translation would have some benefits. It would make some caches more easily accessible to more people. Whether those benefits are worth the costs is another question.

 

With the availability of automatic translation, the benefits aren't as great as one might imagine. And with English not being a universal language, the benefits again aren't as great as some might think (and the costs are greater). And if many geocachers are happy to find traditional caches while traveling, then automatic translation often might be sufficient for many.

About which costs are you talking?

I'm talking about the serious inconvenience that requiring an English translation would impose on many hiders and the extra burden that reviewers would face judging whether such translations were acceptable.

 

The existing guidelines won't appease everyone, but then nothing ever will. It's often about tradeoffs and balance. Costs versus benefits.

I do not want to change the guidelines for caches (Earthcaches are a seperate topic) and I repeated many times that I'm not in favour of mandatory English cache descriptions.

 

What I'd appreciate is however if at least part of the focus in such threads were on potential measures that could help that more cachers create voluntarily English versions and make them available on the cache pages. If cacher owners know that others can filter out descriptions with an English version, it increases the motivation to provide an English version in areas where most caches only have a local language version as then the few caches are findable.

 

If some ideas are infeasible due to the costs or other reasons (it would be nice however to have a comment on that) then one might try to come up with new ideas that might ultimately lead to some improvement for the target group.

Telling the target group the obvious things, does not really contribute to any sort of progress on a matter that first came up in 2003.

I believe the four comments you complained about addressed the OP's suggestion to require an English translation, not an English-available attribute or a select-a-language feature. In that context, I think they were quite reasonable.

[+Rainbow Spirit]

Poor translations reminds me of a joke my father told me:

 

At a meeting between the English and Russian Olympic teams one Englishman mentioned that a certain athlete's spirit was strong but his flesh was weak. In translation it came out that his vodka was strong, but his flesh was rotten.....

[cezanne]

 

I believe the four comments you complained about addressed the OP's suggestion to require an English translation, not an English-available attribute or a select-a-language feature. In that context, I think they were quite reasonable.

 

I did not want to complain about the comments - I just tend to get tired that every single time when the topic English cache descriptions shows up, it essentially ends in the same way with comments that tell well-known facts.

 

I did not understand the OP in the way that they want to enforce an English description. They are quite new in geocaching and cannot find all caches available abroad anyway. It would help already very much if a higher proportion of those cachers who can provide an English description actually offers one.

 

As I said before, I found it very frustrating that whenever I offered to provide English descriptions for caches in my home area (even to cachers who are very proficient in English in order to eliminate the argument that translating a text costs extra effort) the offer was rejected because the cache owners did not want to increase the length of their cache page (which would change if not all languages are displayed at the same time). For my most recent cache, I used another geocaching platform to provide the second language version, but this is neither ideal nor the way the majority of cache owners wants to go.

 

The issue of English cache description lies at my heart since more than 10 years. I really would like to see at least some minor progress or being told why nothing can be done.

 

Cezanne

[+hzoi]

FYI, having tested the GSAK macro on some Korean caches, it doesn't work well for at least Korean characters (which show up in GSAK as all question marks). It appears to work well for others who use it on caches based on the Roman alphabet, so this may be more of a GSAK issue than a macro issue.

[+CanadianRockies]

I believe the four comments you complained about addressed the OP's suggestion to require an English translation, not an English-available attribute or a select-a-language feature. In that context, I think they were quite reasonable.

I did not want to complain about the comments - I just tend to get tired that every single time when the topic English cache descriptions shows up, it essentially ends in the same way with comments that tell well-known facts.

When the OP asks "How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?" then it seems quite appropriate to suggest the use of an automatic online translation. Even if you're tired of reading such suggestions.

 

I did not understand the OP in the way that they want to enforce an English description.

The OP clearly knows it's possible to voluntarily add English descriptions. They have found numerous caches which have descriptions written in both Romanian and English.

 

The OP noticed that many caches hidden in countries like the Czech Republic do not add an English description. They asked how they can find these caches if they don't understand the local language. Finally, they asked if it's possible to add an English description for the caches that are in these other languages.

 

It seems obvious to me that the OP knows an English description voluntarily can be added to Czech caches just as easily as they can be added to Romanian caches. That leads me to conclude that they are requesting a mandatory requirement for an added English description.

 

From the OP:

 

In the last past months I could see that many of the caches hidden in various countries (e.g. Czech) do not have the description in English. How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?

 

In Romania, the country from where I am, most of the caches that I have found have also the descriptions and hints in English so other persons can find them.

 

Is there a possibility to add also an English description for the caches that are in other languages?

[+coachstahly]

I'm currently using the GSAK macro for Dutch and German caches on my upcoming trip and for the most find that it does a good enough job for the most part, multis included. Some of the translation certainly comes out weird, but I think I get the gist of what is being stated in the description, although the english comes out sounding funny! There are certainly some words that don't make much sense, but I have my German mother-in-law and German family to help out with that!

[cezanne]

When the OP asks "How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?" then it seems quite appropriate to suggest the use of an automatic online translation. Even if you're tired of reading such suggestions.

 

I'm tired of them also because I know from experience that the result is often very poor. I have tried to apply it to Czech, Slovak, Slovene and Hungarian caches myself and was not at all satisfied.

 

The OP clearly knows it's possible to voluntarily add English descriptions. They have found numerous caches which have descriptions written in both Romanian and English.

 

The issue is not that it is possible, but rather why there are so huge differences between different countries and how can the cachers in areas with very few English descriptions be encouraged to add English descriptions if their level of English does allow it.

 

As I have mentioned before I came across posters in this forum who are fluent in English, but do not own a single cache with an English description. I also know many cachers in my home area who are fluent in English, but not offer English descriptions and also are not willing to add translations prepared by others to the cache pages.

I've had numerous discussions about this topic over the years with many cachers. There a few things that could be changed that would help to increase the number of available English descriptions.

 

In almost all regions there are few cachers who would both be willing and able to translate some of the caches that appeal to tourists into English. The issue is not the lack in people with a sufficient level of English. The issue is to bring the cache owners to place these translations on their cache pages and make sure that cache searchers are able to identify the caches with an English version.

 

So I still think that the infrastructure provided by Groundspeak is the key aspect that could bring along some progress.

The final result will not be perfect and there will still remain many caches without an English description, but not even I believe that every cache needs an English description.

I'm sure that the young Romanian couple would be happy with encountering many more caches in the neighbouring countries with an English description.

[+CanadianRockies]

When the OP asks "How can we find the caches if we cannot read the description and the hints?" then it seems quite appropriate to suggest the use of an automatic online translation. Even if you're tired of reading such suggestions.

I'm tired of them also because I know from experience that the result is often very poor. I have tried to apply it to Czech, Slovak, Slovene and Hungarian caches myself and was not at all satisfied.

I just applied Google Translate to the first 10 Czech caches that appeared in my search. All the descriptions translated quite well for me, but maybe I'm not as fussy as you. Anyway, I'd have no trouble geocaching in the Czech Republic.

 

Of course, few automatic translations will be perfect. And when some of them prove inadequate, well, people don't have to find every geocache that's out there.

[cezanne]

I just applied Google Translate to the first 10 Czech caches that appeared in my search. All the descriptions translated quite well for me, but maybe I'm not as fussy as you. Anyway, I'd have no trouble geocaching in the Czech Republic.

 

I do not think that this is an issue of being fussy. Most cachers who seem to have good experiences with automatic translation applied it to traditionals and at most simple and short multi caches.

I also could easily find caches in the Czech republic, but not necessarily those that seem most interesting to me.

 

Of course, few automatic translations will be perfect. And when some of them prove inadequate, well, people don't have to find every geocache that's out there.

 

My own translations are not perfect, either.

It is true that one does not have to find all caches but when I tried to translate multi caches and mysteries I rarely encountered translations that were clear enough to make me feel confident that I could find the caches with a reasonably high probability.

 

Even for a quite simple multi cache like this one

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC58AZ2_zamecky-park-bohdalice

I'm not fully happy with the description, and there are much more complex ones.

 

Cezanne