kayakbird Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 New string Doing a bit of off topic recreational reading about Mary Hallock Foote and came across mention of Clarence King and the 1867 geological and mapping survey of the Fortieth Parallel. Did he leave any stations that made it into the DATASHEETS? Thanks, kayakbird Quote Link to comment
+m&h Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 It's our impression, based partly on imperfect recall of Richard Bartlett's Great Surveys of the American West, that King's work did not include setting marks that would become part of any permanent record. Doubtless there were many temporary marks placed in the process of setting up plane tables etc., but we don't think King's job involved triangulation or very accurate leveling runs. Cheers, Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 m&h, Thanks for that information. Now I gotta wonder if he left any NONPID evidence out there. MEL Quote Link to comment
+billwallace Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I found an ATLAS ACOMPANYING THE REPORT OF THE GEOLOGICAL EXPLORATION OF THE FORTIETH PARALLEL dated 1876 at the David Rumsey Historical Map Collection. (found it by searching Clarence King in the site search bar) Took a quick look at a couple of the topographic maps and found some triangles on peaks: Rocky Mountains map NAVESINK Pk - approx N40 55 W107 26.6 (datum??) SEPERATION Pk - approx N41 37.5 W107 22.5 Nevada Basin Map PAH-RUM Pk - approx N40 23 W119 35 There is a 1912 USGS mark on Seperation peak, MP0685 There is a 1963 USGS mark on Pah-Rum peak, LS0673 Maybe a little luck here, huh? The Index says that there is an appendix specifying the topographic and geodetic methods but it doesn't seem to be in the collection. There is a wonderful sketch of the Cordilleras of the Western United States. Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 billwallace, Thanks for doing that research. I need to work on learning how to get to some of that good stuff. Read the DATASHEETS and this really caught my eye: LS0673'STATION IS 1.07 FT N. OF 3/4-INCH STEEL BOLT DRIVEN IN LS0673'BEDROCK WHICH IS POSSIBLY CENTER OF PAH RUM PEAK CAIRN DESCRIBED LS0673'BY NGS IN DESCRIPTION LIST 40 119 2, STATION 1003. LS0673 Can you work your magic on that NGS description list? MEL Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Again thanks to billwallace for the great link to the Fortieth Parallel Survey maps! They used up several hours this evening. In addition to MP0628 SEPARATION, I located three other mapped triangles in Carbon County, Wyo that have PID's with a hint in the description that there was already a monument there. They are: MP0599 STEELE 2, MP0585 ELK MTN and MP0546 MEDICINE BOW. Is it possible that that some where there is a DESCRIPTION that might read like this. ZZ9876 FOUND THREE FOOT HIGH ROCK CAIRN BUILT OVER A DRILL HOLE IN SMOOTH EXPOSED GRANITE ZZ9876 ON THE HIGHEST POINT OF CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE MOUNTAIN, AS DESCRIBED IN THE ZZ9876 UNPUBLISHED FIELD NOTES OF THE FORTIETH PARALLEL SURVEY, 4 JULY 1868. CAIRN WAS ZZ9876 DISMANTLED AND REBUILT 2 METERS DUE NORTH OF THE DRILL HOLE. STATION IS A SIX INCH ZZ9876 LENGTH OF 3/4 INCH IRON ROD LEADED INTO THE EXISTING DRILL HOLE WITH ONE INCH ZZ9876 PROTRUDING. I'll bet that it happened, but give the parochialism of all the surveying agencies around the turn of the century, we may never see it in writing. MEL Quote Link to comment
+billwallace Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I mentioned above that the Index page of the Atlas says that there is an appendix to Volume I specifying the topographic and geodetic methods. That appendix, if it can be found, might have location descriptions. The "Report of the Geological Exploration of the Fortieth Parallel" is seven volumes. I haven't found an on-line resource yet for volume I, Univ of Mich has volumes II-VII - there are actually seven entries but it looks like they scanned volume IV twice. Each volume's first page says: Professional papers of the engineer's department, U.S.army, no. 18; Volumes.... I.(1878) Systematic geology, by Clarence King.-- II.(1877) Descriptive geology, by Arnold Hague and S.F.Emmons.-- III.(1870) Mining industry, by James D.Hague, with geological contributions by Clarence King.-- IV.(1877) pt.I. Palaeontology, by F.B.Meek. pt.II. Palaeontology, by James Hall and R.P.Whitfield. pt.III. Ornithology, by Robert Ridgway.-- V.(1871) Botany. By Sereno Watson, aided by Prof. Daniel C.Eaton, and others.-- VI.(1876) Microscopical petrography, by Ferdinand Zirkel.-- VII.(1880) Odonthornithes:a monograph on the extinct toothed birds of North America ...by Othniel Charles Marsh. Here is a link to a WorldCat search for the report. You can specify your location and it will list libraries "near" you that have it. Looks like several University libraries near me have it. From the About WorldCat page: What is WorldCat? WorldCat is the world's largest network of library content and services. WorldCat libraries are dedicated to providing access to their resources on the Web, where most people start their search for information. What am I searching? WorldCat.org lets you search the collections of libraries in your community and thousands more around the world. WorldCat grows every day thanks to the efforts of librarians and other information professionals. Quote Link to comment
+billwallace Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Volume one of the Report has been scanned and is in the Internet Archives. The Appendix on Geodetical and Topographical Methods, while interesting, doesn't contain a list of the coordinates for locations used in the triangulation. Looks like the only thing they left behind were stone cairns on the principal points - there is a table of at least some (all?) of the principals and their lattitudes. The illustrious Coast Survey gets a mention for work of "the utmost precision". Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 Volume one of the Report has been scanned and is in the Internet Archives. Bill, Thanks for updating this thread. Don't know if I will make it back to Carbon Co, Wyo this summer to check out the suspicious ones that I paper scouted earlier - [in addition to MP0628 SEPARATION, I located three other mapped triangles in Carbon County, Wyo that have PID's with a hint in the description that there was already a monument there. They are: MP0599 STEELE 2, MP0585 ELK MTN and MP0546 MEDICINE BOW.] Gotta think that they are, or are at least very close to, the King monuments. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Thanks for updating this thread. Don't know if I will make it back to Carbon Co, Wyo this summer to check out the suspicious ones that I paper scouted earlier - [in addition to MP0628 SEPARATION, I located three other mapped triangles in Carbon County, Wyo that have PID's with a hint in the description that there was already a monument there. They are: MP0599 STEELE 2, MP0585 ELK MTN and MP0546 MEDICINE BOW.] Gotta think that they are, or are at least very close to, the King monuments. If it is any help to your project, I georeferenced the King survey maps, and plotted the positions of all the triangulation points I could find (I found 75 of them). Then I did a search against the NGS database for any NGS station within 2 km of a King station. The result follows. The report shows the King triangulation point and my estimated coordinates. Underneath, there is a list of the NGS PIDs that were within 2 km, the coordinates, the distance in meters from the estimated King position, the monumentation date, and the station name. Pilot Peak -114.082100 41.018130 MT0738 -114.077392 41.021123 517 1889 PILOT PEAK Star Peak -118.173100 40.520250 LS0554 -118.170768 40.522420 312 1953 STAR PEAK RESET Tarogqua Peak -118.231600 39.582980 Wadsworth -119.282600 39.623880 Peavine Mountain (Verdi) * -119.927500 39.589110 KR1795 -119.932099 39.586888 466 1893 PEAVINE KR1787 -119.928643 39.589467 106 1942 PEAVINE EAST CAIRN Signal Peak -117.617700 40.854350 LR0852 -117.607099 40.860543 1128 1934 SONOMA Sue's Peak -117.140700 40.672170 LR0816 -117.132498 40.675033 763 1934 BATTLE Pah-Rum Peak -119.574800 40.389680 LS0636 -119.575222 40.390449 93 1940 PAH RUM PEAK CAIRN FLAGPOLE LS0673 -119.575226 40.390455 93 1963 PAH RUM Kumiva Peak -119.265700 40.407420 Granite Mountain -117.822300 40.279110 LR0850 -117.817073 40.280306 464 1958 GRANITE LR0851 -117.816955 40.280263 472 1958 GRANITE CAIRN Mount Moses -117.423700 40.145890 LR0839 -117.415389 40.147170 722 1958 MOSES Buffalo Peak -118.130900 40.219550 LS0573 -118.129278 40.222663 372 1958 BUFFALO Tohakum Peak -119.454700 40.177880 State Line Peak -119.979400 40.028340 LS0637 -119.979329 40.029859 169 1931 STATE LINE LS0638 -119.978909 40.029832 171 1931 STATE LINE CAIRN Ormsby Peak -119.459800 39.754670 Nache Peak -119.238800 39.995610 Tebog Peak -118.645900 39.903230 Chataya Peak -118.034600 39.973560 KR1473 -118.032515 39.974076 187 1958 COTTON KR1474 -118.032510 39.974102 188 1958 COTTON CAIRN Ravenswood Peak -117.192600 39.826970 KQ0419 -117.172100 39.823175 1805 1954 BOONE CAIRN KQ0418 -117.172098 39.823208 1804 1958 ZENO <unnamed> -117.485900 39.651050 KQ0430 -117.483589 39.647544 437 1954 NEW PASS CAIRN KQ0429 -117.483648 39.647544 435 1958 NEW PASS Crescent Peak -117.805100 39.686510 KQ0484 -117.806871 39.685340 200 1954 MT GRANT CAIRN Tu-Tib Peak -119.168200 39.711790 KR1880 -119.170542 39.712579 219 1956 TWO TIPS Spanish Peak -119.579900 39.646940 KR1878 -119.578671 39.649041 256 1956 SPANISH SPRS PK Parkeah Peak -118.822800 40.515740 <unnamed> -118.482800 40.302000 LS0593 -118.492630 40.287182 1845 1957 NIG LS0594 -118.492673 40.287172 1848 1958 NIG CAIRN Rose Mountain -116.810000 41.287490 Mount Neva -116.372100 41.327640 Mount Bonpland -115.128000 40.948570 Upriver Peak -115.633600 40.892770 LQ0738 -115.630184 40.894401 340 1929 LGS Maggie Peak -116.057300 40.935210 Lookout Peak -114.299600 40.498380 LQ0645 -114.295512 40.499466 367 1944 GOSHUTE Spruce Mountain -114.824500 40.551640 Ravens Nest -116.012500 40.500380 Shosone Peak -116.866400 40.403340 LR0905 -116.861473 40.403414 418 1934 MT LEWIS White Cloud Peak -115.494100 40.402770 Tenabo Peak -116.586600 40.162940 <unnamed> -115.388800 40.730380 Logan Peak -111.722600 41.699110 Medicine Butte -110.914200 41.341780 Willard Peak -111.960100 41.357040 Benada Peak -112.505200 41.483530 MS0726 -112.508281 41.490231 787 1892 NORTH PROMONTORY CAIRN Tangent Peak -113.179100 41.477010 <unnamed> -111.889000 41.190570 MR0714 -111.882034 41.199914 1191 1888 OGDEN PEAK Chalk Peak -111.106000 41.011330 MR0680 -111.110437 41.018159 845 1938 PORCUPINE LaMotte Peak -110.755700 40.769220 LO1138 -110.751998 40.773803 597 1897 LA MOTTE PEAK Connor Peak -112.190400 40.609040 Tabernacle -111.894300 40.764630 Twin Peak -111.723400 40.590600 Lone Peak -111.759000 40.524750 Tooelle Peak -112.216300 40.447590 Bonneville Peak -112.624400 40.457400 LP0457 -112.626321 40.459514 286 1892 DESERET <unnamed> -112.281400 41.022670 Pilot Butte -109.352100 41.637800 Black Butte -108.799600 41.552940 Church Buttes -110.131300 41.488960 Twin Buttes -109.704800 41.176090 Diamond Peak -108.877300 40.945880 Marshs Peak -109.829900 40.707900 LN0686 -109.828634 40.710972 358 1961 MARSH PEAK Gilbert Peak -110.342500 40.823760 Yampa Peak -108.028300 40.441790 <unnamed> -109.163200 41.089210 Separation Peak -107.385800 41.635080 MP0685 -107.395738 41.637737 879 1912 SEPARATION MP0628 -107.395755 41.637746 881 1933 SEPARATION Mount Steele -106.985100 41.831490 MP0599 -106.997688 41.837768 1257 1951 STEELE 2 Arrow Peak -105.478800 41.537260 Elk Mountain -106.511800 41.627740 MP0586 -106.526190 41.633124 1340 1916 ELK Medicine Peak -106.304200 41.357570 MP0546 -106.317600 41.360285 1161 1948 MEDICINE BOW Sheep Mountain -105.966100 41.091020 Encampment Mountain -107.037600 41.188740 Navesink Peak -107.448800 40.923220 Pelham Peak -106.672500 41.031910 Signal Peak -105.268000 41.035310 <unnamed> -105.191300 40.737280 Hantz Peak -106.917900 40.847640 Clarks Peak -105.918500 40.603560 LL1388 -105.929969 40.606821 1036 1949 CLARK <unnamed> -106.051200 41.149540 Quote Link to comment
+billwallace Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 ... I georeferenced the King survey maps, and plotted the positions of all the triangulation points I could find (I found 75 of them).... Wow , thats cool. Seems like a lot of work. If you don't mind would you briefly explain how you georeferenced the maps? did you use your own software? I've tried that with snapshots of USGS quads (geo PDFs) and Google Earth and it seemed fairly reasonable - but you can't bend or shape the overlays beyond changing the length or width. Anyway, thnx. Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Wow , thats cool. Seems like a lot of work. If you don't mind would you briefly explain how you georeferenced the maps? did you use your own software? I've tried that with snapshots of USGS quads (geo PDFs) and Google Earth and it seemed fairly reasonable - but you can't bend or shape the overlays beyond changing the length or width. Anyway, thnx. I assumed that the maps were as accurate as they could make them in 1870's, and that the lat/lon lines were accurately plotted using a Polyconic projection with the Bessel 1841 ellipsoid. I have a GIS called Manifold, which I used. I simply created a reference map with that projection and ellipsoid and inserted points at the exact lat/lon coordinates of a few of the graticule line intersections in the images. I then added control points to the image at those intersections, and let Manifold georeference the image to the control map using an affine transformation. Finally, I reprojected the images to NAD83 and plotted all the triangulation stations I could find. The accuracy seemed to be a few hundred meters on average. The map images show signs of distortion at the folds, so overall accuracy varies across the map. Quote Link to comment
+billwallace Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Thnx.... more reading Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 ---They are: MP0599 STEELE 2, MP0585 ELK MTN and MP0546 MEDICINE BOW.] Gotta think that they are, or are at least very close to, the King monuments. ---found 75 of them).--- distance in meters from the estimated King position, the monumentation date, and the station name. [/xml] holograph, Thanks for pulling those 40th Tri points out of the fuzzy maps. Got distracted with a snowbird birding trip with a sister and her husband, so am just getting around to playing with them. After getting them all lined up in Excel columns I did a bit of DeLorme and Google "ground truth" at paired points along the Wyo line. Looks like it will take a bit of peak bagging to come up with a definitive answer to whether or not any of the King points were appropriated by later surveys. 40th points with the bearing and distance to what looks like the closest logical point for a triangulation station - generally very close to a PID: NAME LOGICAL BRG/DIST Marshs Peak "001D, 1000FT" LaMotte Peak "030D, 1978FT" Mount Steele "276D, 1950FT" Elk Mountain "277D, 3800FT" Clarks Peak "280D, 3418FT" Separation Peak "286D, 1200FT" Medicine Peak "287D, 3711FT" Chalk Peak "333D, 2769FT" Again, don't know if or when I'll get down that way. If anyone would like a copy of my Excel file, which includes DDDMMSS & DDDMMSS.ss columns contact me off forum. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 (edited) ... After getting them all lined up in Excel columns I did a bit of DeLorme and Google "ground truth" at paired points along the Wyo line. Looks like it will take a bit of peak bagging to come up with a definitive answer to whether or not any of the King points were appropriated by later surveys. 40th points with the bearing and distance to what looks like the closest logical point for a triangulation station - generally very close to a PID: ... I wouldn't think many (or any) King survey points became NGS stations. The King survey was using triangulation, but they weren't striving for more accuracy than they needed for mapping at 4 miles to the inch. A pencil line at that scale is about 400 feet wide, so that was their goal in terms of accuracy -- be within 400 feet. From the description in Vol 1, it sounds like they marked the stations with cairns, but when sighting on the peaks, they only sighted on the highest point of the peak. That wouldn't have achieved the accuracy demanded by the NGS. A lot of the peaks were later occupied by later surveys; some of them became NGS stations, some of them were USGS stations. But those stations aren't the King stations, and they didn't seem to make any effort to find or re-use the King stations, at least no mention is made in the NGS datasheets, although a handful mention a "peak cairn" as a reference mark. Finally, King had the disadvantage of being first, and there wasn't much that he could tie his network into. At the time of his survey, the only precisely surveyed station in almost the entire West was the Salt Lake City astronomical pier, which had been established in 1869 by George Dean of the Coast Survey. At that time, the longitude of the pier was calculated to be 111° 53' 47.06" and the latitude 40° 46' 3.76". Although that pier (near PID AE4738) isn't a NGS horizontal control station, the hand-held coordinates of AE4738 are 111° 53' 27.65", 40° 46' 10.26", meaning the King survey used a datum with an offset of about 500 meters (1,600 feet) from the NAD83 datum. It would still be extremely interesting to know if King's cairns survive in some form, which I assume is the main goal of your project. Edited April 3, 2011 by holograph Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 Any one doing a road trip to the Evanston Wyo area this hunting season? Looks like CBM roads would get you right to PORCUPINE/Chalk Butte. The cairns 600 ft north and 20 ft west can be seen on GE. Maybe CSI could date a shaving from the copper bolt that I am guessing was already there when USGS placed the RM's & AZ in 1938. MR0680'SURFACE MARK IS A COPPER BOLT IN A BOULDER. MR0680'REFERENCE MARKS ARE STANDARD BRONZE DISKS SET IN BOULDERS. MR0680'AZIMUTH MARK IS A STANDARD BRONZE MR0680'DISK IN BEDROCK. MR0680'THERE IS A LARGE ROCK CAIRN ON THE N PART OF THE HILL ABOUT MR0680'600 FEET N OF THE STATION AND ANOTHER LARGE CAIRN 20 FEET MR0680'WEST OF THE STATION. This is the best one out of a dozen that give a hint of a previous monument. PORCUPINE kayakbird Quote Link to comment
+billwallace Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) Clarence King - from the USGS museum Edited April 13, 2011 by billwallace Quote Link to comment
topflitejr1 Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Clarence King - from the USGS museum Great stuff billwallace! I scrolled down to "Heritage Assets" and enjoyed reading about the Ford Model A purchased by the NGS in 1930 and used by several NGS employees through the years up until 1974. Turns out that it was used by Levi Noble to map the Mojave desert. I'm guessing that he worked the area that I live in the Antelope Valley and would bet that I have found some of the Marks that he may have set. Thanks! Quote Link to comment
topflitejr1 Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 (edited) Silly me! I re-read it and discovered that Levi Noble was Mapping the Mojave Desert, not surveying it. ........Never Mind!!!! Edited April 14, 2011 by topflitejr1 Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 Copper Bolt at King's CHALK PEAK - USGS PORCUPINE: MR0680 I think that the bolt was there long before the RM's were placed. kayakbird Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Still working on map scouting & pinning on GE the 75 points that holograph identified for me on King's maps; but this one seemed interesting enough to add to this thread right now. K's WADSWORTH - SPRR BOLT 20 JUN 2006 PHOTO BY nvsrvyr Don't know if King placed this, but wouldn't they have used a nice permanent hard point if it was available? MEL Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Still working on map scouting & pinning on GE the 75 points that holograph identified for me on King's maps; but this one seemed interesting enough to add to this thread right now. K's WADSWORTH - SPRR BOLT 20 JUN 2006 PHOTO BY nvsrvyr Don't know if King placed this, but wouldn't they have used a nice permanent hard point if it was available? MEL Unless you have evidence to the contrary, I doubt that the railroad used much concrete when it was first built or when the King surveyors would have been in the area. Railroads tended to be built on the following principles: do grading, and lay rails as quickly as possible, often with widely spaced, unballasted ties laid directly on the grade. The bridges tended to be timber trestles, which were later either filled with rock to form embankments, or which were later replaced with iron or steel bridges. American railroads were built fast and shoddy, in order to get revenue as quickly as possible, and were then upgraded later. Quote Link to comment
DaveD Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Anyone interested in Clarence King should read "Passing Strange." He led a very interesting and complex life. Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Over the weekend I was reading one of his reports to see if I could discover how the King triangulation was done, when there were virtually no reference points available. I was interested to read that they started at the westernmost end with a 64-mile "base line" that was measured by finding the astronomic latitudes of two peaks nearly lying north-south of each other, and computing the base line distance based on their latitudes and azimuths. Hardly a precision method! Here are a few snippets from the Geodetic Appendix to the first volume of the King report, pp 763-769: The Union and Central Pacific railroads, which now traverse this section, were not built when the Fortieth Parallel Exploration was begun, and no maps of the mountain ranges existed upon which even the roughest geological work could be based. Stone cairns were placed on the peaks selected for stations, and were the only signals used; but these being invisible, except on shorter lines, exactly the highest points of the mountains were usually observed. These culminating points of Cordilleran summits can generally, by a practised eye, be determined within a very few feet. It really is amazing that they accomplished what they did. Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Another year and another trip across Wyoming to get to Moab with just a single target - the NOT FOUND last year MR0823 MEDICINE BUTTE just north of Evanston. NO SNOW DRIFTS THIS YEAR The one inch copper bolt appears to be the same vintage as this one southwest of Evanston. PORCUPINE - FND 2011 I would like to make a case that both are much older than their published date [1962 & 1938}. In fact I tend to believe that maybe the King party did leave permanent markers. If the USLS was using leaded in brass at about the same time, why not King? kayakbird Quote Link to comment
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