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Adhesive for devious hides


Andiamo59

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I use CA glue. Not just any superglue, but the good, expensive stuff. I've never used it for a cache, but I have used it for other stuff that required a stronger bond, and more abuse then a cache. Yes it's expensive-my brand is about $6 for 2 ounces, but I've never used a full bottle.

 

I will say that type of hide could be really mean, and if it's a penny or something like that expect someone will muggle it.

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Gorilla Glue, JBWeld, two-part epoxy (not the 5-minute junk), silicon caulking (clear) -- completely waterproof, but has a long cure time.

 

Super glue, if not the very thick stuff, is not good at all if there is inconsistency between surfaces (gaps).

 

ETA: Silicon caulk can only be removed by scraping it off. It holds in heat, cold and everything in-between, water will not affect it, nor will UV. Many glues fail because of contraction/expansion issues between differing materials -- silicon stays flexible.

Edited by Gitchee-Gummee
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I agree with Gorilla Glue and JBWeld. Since you're in Pennsylvania, please do a little testing after you finish with the cache container. Put your cache in the freezer overnight and see how the bond holds. Leave it at room temperature for a while and play around with the bond again. Repeat this process one or two more times, adding some water to simulate ice/snow and rain. This will give you a good idea how your container and bond will hold up over the seasons. While you're at it, please do what I do when creating something; since you have the materials and you're creating one, go ahead and create one or two more to serve as replacements. You'll be glad you did.

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I've seen what he's doing, and they have always been carefuly placed in pre existing openings in the ground. ( hey, it could happen) :)

How long before being used must a pre-existing opening exist to be pre-existing?

 

Exactly.

 

The real purpose of the " no digging" guideline is because the original cache placed by Dave Ulmer was a 5 gallon bucket buried in the ground. Land owners were hesitant to agree to have random strangers wandering around their property with shovels. I doubt the same concerns applies to what is a essentially a golf tee, but technically they are most likely not allowed. A little common sense goes a long way in these situations.

Edited by ras_oscar
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I am planning some devious hides using small plastic tubes. I planned to use super glue to adhere small items like stones, pennies, etc. to the top of the tube but thought I'd check with the experts first. What's the best adhesive for this type of application?

Adhesives will pop right off the slick surface of PPE plastic centrifuge tubes, especially if the penny is the lever that opens the tube (which it is if glued to the cap). Unfortunately (fortunately?) the cache tube's seal will fail by then. So have a fresh container ready.

 

To verify how well Gorilla Glue (or epoxy or whatever you try) sticks to hard to glue plastics, note that the glue bottle itself is PPE plastic since hardened glue pops right off.

Edited by kunarion
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I am planning some devious hides using small plastic tubes. I planned to use super glue to adhere small items like stones, pennies, etc. to the top of the tube but thought I'd check with the experts first. What's the best adhesive for this type of application?

Adhesives will pop right off the slick surface of PPE plastic centrifuge tubes, especially if the penny is the lever that opens the tube (which it is if glued to the cap). Unfortunately (fortunately?) the cache tube's seal will fail by then. So have a fresh container ready.

 

To verify how well Gorilla Glue (or epoxy or whatever you try) sticks to hard to glue plastics, note that the glue bottle itself is PPE plastic since hardened glue pops right off.

 

A little sandpaper to the surface will help that

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I am planning some devious hides using small plastic tubes. I planned to use super glue to adhere small items like stones, pennies, etc. to the top of the tube but thought I'd check with the experts first. What's the best adhesive for this type of application?

Adhesives will pop right off the slick surface of PPE plastic centrifuge tubes, especially if the penny is the lever that opens the tube (which it is if glued to the cap). Unfortunately (fortunately?) the cache tube's seal will fail by then. So have a fresh container ready.

 

To verify how well Gorilla Glue (or epoxy or whatever you try) sticks to hard to glue plastics, note that the glue bottle itself is PPE plastic since hardened glue pops right off.

 

A little sandpaper to the surface will help that

JB weld has cool little inverted sandpaper lines when it pops off. :laughing:

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JB Weld.

 

I think the original JB Weld is kinda messy. I have had good experiences with their "WaterWeld" marine epoxy putty stick, or other brand equivalent.

 

 

I don't know how it compares but the 3M marine sealant and adhesives might work even better. The 3M 5200FC works best in very wet environments (including underwater) and in a comparison chart it indicates that the 5200FC is excellent for "below waterline" bonding a is *not* removable. I've heard the same when comparing the 3200 and 5200. If you never want to working about the bond breaking, use the 5200 series because once it's cured it's not coming apart. I know that several polyethylene kayak manufacturers use 3M 5200 for bonding bulkheads (often made of polyethylene or foam to the inside of the kayak. In that use case, the bond not only has to be good in a very wet environment but it also needs to provide a water tight seal between the cockpit and the fore and/or after bulkheads.

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The 3M 5200FC works best in very wet environments (including underwater) and in a comparison chart it indicates that the 5200FC is excellent for "below waterline" bonding a is *not* removable. I've heard the same when comparing the 3200 and 5200. If you never want to working about the bond breaking, use the 5200 series because once it's cured it's not coming apart.

That chart shows "3M 5200" (the one that I bought, not 5200FC), also is "not removable", but I found that it pops right off PPE tubes. I've sanded one tube to death today, and will test 3M 5200 again.

 

One idea was to drill holes in the tube (or lock-n-lock for a box) and seal through the holes, so the glue acts kind of like a rivet when cured. Maybe that would be better. Every glue mentioned will stick forever to the penny. The plastic, not so much.

Edited by kunarion
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The 3M 5200FC works best in very wet environments (including underwater) and in a comparison chart it indicates that the 5200FC is excellent for "below waterline" bonding a is *not* removable. I've heard the same when comparing the 3200 and 5200. If you never want to working about the bond breaking, use the 5200 series because once it's cured it's not coming apart.

That chart shows "3M 5200" (the one that I bought, not 5200FC), also is "not removable", but I found that it pops right off PPE tubes. I've sanded one tube to death today, and will test 3M 5200 again.

 

One idea was to drill holes in the tube (or lock-n-lock for a box) and seal through the holes, so the glue acts kind of like a rivet when cured. Maybe that would be better. Every glue mentioned will stick forever to the penny. The plastic, not so much.

 

That chart also indicates that "3M 5200" takes 7 days to fully cure (vs. 24 hours for the 5200FC ...I assume the FC stands for fast cure). Yes, unfortunately gluing plastic is a challenge, especially plastic to plastic.

 

 

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That chart also indicates that "3M 5200" takes 7 days to fully cure (vs. 24 hours for the 5200FC ...I assume the FC stands for fast cure). Yes, unfortunately gluing plastic is a challenge, especially plastic to plastic.

Is 5200FC a 2-part kit? I don't like to wait, but also don't like the rest of the tube to dry out after I only used it once. :yikes: I'm testing 3M 5200 again (not FC), and will wait again, so the test takes a while.

 

I also bought 3M 4693H (an industrial adhesive) which claims to bond to polyethylene. The cured adhesive itself wasn't strong. I'm trying again. If it at least in fact bonds to soft slippery plastics, I can paint a thin coat, and then use JB weld or pretty much anything. But 3M 4693H also takes a while to cure. And if it "bonds" to plastic, it may weaken it due to dissolving some of the material. I've seen that effect with paint that "bonds to plastic", creating micro-fractures, and making the container brittle. PET/PPV gets brittle outdoors anyway, depending on many factors, but I'm hoping to find a reliable process that doesn't start with making the plastic brittle.

Edited by kunarion
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Many years ago, I had a notion of using physical camo materials, adhered to various containers, (Lock & Locks, decon kits, Therapak canisters, ammo cans, etc), to break up their outline. The medium I ended up with was a mixture of spanish moss, ground moss and something called Excelsior, (I think?), which is really just shredded aspen bark. The brown looks a lot like pine needles. After trying many different adhesives, the one I settled on was Liquid Nails Roof Repair, which comes in a caulk tube. This stuff is seriously messy, and odoriferous, so you want to use it outdoors, wearing grubby clothes, and latex gloves. It takes a few days to cure. The end result is a bond which remains flexible in a wide temperature range. Good stuff.

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Many years ago, I had a notion of using physical camo materials, adhered to various containers, (Lock & Locks, decon kits, Therapak canisters, ammo cans, etc), to break up their outline. The medium I ended up with was a mixture of spanish moss, ground moss and something called Excelsior, (I think?), which is really just shredded aspen bark. The brown looks a lot like pine needles. After trying many different adhesives, the one I settled on was Liquid Nails Roof Repair, which comes in a caulk tube. This stuff is seriously messy, and odoriferous, so you want to use it outdoors, wearing grubby clothes, and latex gloves. It takes a few days to cure. The end result is a bond which remains flexible in a wide temperature range. Good stuff.

That seems like a plan! The most common question on the Forums is, what is some nice glue can I buy at a craft store. But in order to have it endure, you may need adhesive that's used for permanent repairs in outdoor construction work. Dangerous industrial stuff, smelly, expensive, sold by the vat.

 

I have a tube of that Roof Repair, but haven't decided how I'll glue my items without gluing the container shut, and avoid gluing it to myself, things like that. Once opened, the clock is ticking on the amount of time I have to use it all up, before it all dries out. So I have to do all my projects at once. It can't be just a penny on a centrifuge tube.

Edited by kunarion
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That chart also indicates that "3M 5200" takes 7 days to fully cure (vs. 24 hours for the 5200FC ...I assume the FC stands for fast cure). Yes, unfortunately gluing plastic is a challenge, especially plastic to plastic.

Is 5200FC a 2-part kit? I don't like to wait, but also don't like the rest of the tube to dry out after I only used it once. :yikes: I'm testing 3M 5200 again (not FC), and will wait again, so the test takes a while.

 

I also bought 3M 4693H (an industrial adhesive) which claims to bond to polyethylene. The cured adhesive itself wasn't strong. I'm trying again. If it at least in fact bonds to soft slippery plastics, I can paint a thin coat, and then use JB weld or pretty much anything. But 3M 4693H also takes a while to cure. And if it "bonds" to plastic, it may weaken it due to dissolving some of the material. I've seen that effect with paint that "bonds to plastic", creating micro-fractures, and making the container brittle. PET/PPV gets brittle outdoors anyway, depending on many factors, but I'm hoping to find a reliable process that doesn't start with making the plastic brittle.

 

polyethylene or polypropylene plastics are hard to bond, but not impossible.

I had to repair a vintage Airstream trailer water tank and in my travels I found

 

In Canada it's called This

 

A bit of fiddling, but it really works! I repaired a large split, and reinforced another area and the tank holds water like new!

 

The secret of it is the flame treatment. Hot enough to disturb the surface of the poly, (the poly actually puts up tiny "fingers" for an hour or two that the adhesive will bond to) but not hot enough to melt it. Not as hard as it sounds.

 

I haven't tried it with smaller things, but I'm confident it will work!

Edited by BC & MsKitty
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The secret of it is the flame treatment. Hot enough to disturb the surface of the poly, (the poly actually puts up tiny "fingers" for an hour or two that the adhesive will bond to) but not hot enough to melt it. Not as hard as it sounds.

 

I haven't tried it with smaller things, but I'm confident it will work!

So the trick is a flame treatment with a torch. Prepare first with acetone to remove any slick coating, flame-treat, then use an adhesive that's especially designed for "Hard to glue plastics" -- be sure it says so on the package. It must be applied somewhat thick, and takes at least 24 hours to cure. It's time-consuming, expensive, and hazardous. It's way beyond craft glue. I'm not all that excited about a breakthrough in gluing nano centrifuge tubes, but whatever works there will work on decent sized lock-n-locks.

 

I have a few types of industrial plastic adhesive, and it always pops right off, usually after I've tested it, placed the container, and was confident it worked this time. Next cache log, "Needs some glue, it broke". I guess it was the temperature variation, or the flexible container with unflexible glue, or excessive force of cachers who just plain broke it. There are a lot of Scorched-Earth style cachers in this area, which means that containers must be super strong (same with the plant life at GZ :ph34r:). That limits the creativity of containers, or makes them high-maintenance. If a container's covering is down to its last piece of a leaf, it might as well not even have been a "devious hide". :anibad:

 

Anyway, when I see these weekly Threads about needing better glue, it's obvious that craft glue is not doing the trick, especially the transparent "Goop"-like glues. So it needs to be not only an industrial adhesive, there's a preparation process. I wonder if someone who intends to place a nano centrifuge tube is serious about designing an excellent container :rolleyes:. I tried the centrifuge tubes that had an O-ring, and abandoned that plan pretty quickly. Nanos are high maintenance cache containers, glued or not!

 

I didn't flame treat any of my recent prototypes, and they still have over a week remaining to cure (I'm testing three different industrial adhesives again). So I'll start over. ;)

 

I have Loctite Plastics Bonder "For hard to glue plastics" which is super glue with an activator -- too thin for use on cache containers, but other adhesives may stick to that prepared surface. So far, it's not so great. I also have 3M4693H which is a one-part adhesive that hardens something like rubber cement, and it is specified for use on PPE. I don't have the kind of stuff in the video. Everything else is just glue, but I'm testing 3M 5200 Marine Sealant (silicone rubber), JB Weld & Quik-Weld, and Loctite heavy Duty Epoxy. My theory is if the flame treatment allows anything to stick, it may allow some of the OTC glues to stick, too. Whatever the glue or the process, if it pops right off the plastic with no trace, it doesn't work.

Edited by kunarion
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Here's one result of my glue tests. This is "3M 5200 Marine Sealant", a silicone rubber. It has been curing for about a week, and I probably should leave it alone for 2 or 3 weeks, but what ya gonna do :anicute:.

 

The part of the tube that I rough-up with sandpaper, the sealant peeled off somewhat, left a little residue. The roughness actually made it adhere worse.

 

The part of the tube that I didn't "rough-up" is another matter. That is not popping off like everything else! You must pry with a screwdriver, until the glue breaks. It is sticking to the PPE container! The penny came off more easily than the plastic did.

 

I did no "flame treating" at all on my test containers, but I'm guessing it would be a good idea for better adhesion.

 

Couple of considerations:

- Don't set it on wax paper to cure. This sealant glues securely to that :yikes:.

- It's runny. Mine is the consistency of heavy cream. Maybe it's a bad batch? Placed penny-down, it produced a large white disc of sealant around the penny. Penny up, it flowed away from the penny, around the container. I'll go try a fresh tube of that stuff. 3M 5200 Marine Sealant is promising!

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I'll keep watching here for your results! desismileys_0496.gif

If I would always break the container before breaking the bond, that's a great adhesive. The bond must be at least as strong as the container, that's what I'm going for.

 

But here's another thing about PPE/PPV. It's brittle. Or it becomes brittle over time. So there's a lot more to do beyond glue, if the container is to endure in the wild. If it's only temporary, replaced frequently (or apathetically left to deteriorate), any ordinary glue would be OK. I'd think it's not a devious hide if all the "deviousness" has fallen away months ago. :anibad:

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All of the adhesives in my test have cured for 2 weeks, on 50ml “PPE” centrifuge tubes. These are the results with attaching a penny. Yes, I know the nano centrifuge tubes themselves fail after just a few finds. These are tests of adhesive, not the suitability of any given container.

 

In the example of gluing a penny to the top of a centrifuge tube, it would have to be a super strong bond, since the penny acts as the lever that opens the tube. It's similar with many cache ideas -- items must be permanently bonded in order for the cache to work. After a few finds, a log “the [X] fell off, needs maintenance” is no good, and it probably fell off weeks ago. So far, everything I've tried will come apart, maybe none are suitable. An adhesive would be considered perfect if it bonds so that either item must be broken to remove it. Anything less is just like all the rest.

 

But some adhesives are better than others. You can use a simple hot glue and it may last a little while (depending on a lot of things). The issue is whether any of the adhesives hold up in real world tests, whether an expensive adhesive and extra time and effort truly make a difference.

 

3M 5200 Marine Adhesive Sealant (RTV, white, runny as heavy cream): The best of all I tried. The area of the tube that was roughed up with sandpaper failed; the adhesive pops right off. On the smooth area, the adhesive is permanently attached. The penny itself pops off cleanly. If this adhesive comes in a “copper” color version, a fake RTV “penny” could be molded to the cap. There may be a way to prepare your object (penny or whatever) to get it to remain attached. Certainly will bond two PPE itens together, depending on surface area and adhesive thickness. This is promising.

 

JB Quick Weld (unflexible epoxy): Sticks to the penny, pops of the container cleanly. But it takes a lot of force to separate it from the container. It might separate on its own due to temperature changes. No good.

 

Ordinary silicone rubber aquarium sealant: Partially sticks to both items, separates (the adhesive itself breaks). No good.

 

“9001” and “E6000” (flexible stretchy craft glue like liquid nails or Goop): Partially sticks to both items, separates. No good.

 

3M 4393H High Performance Industrial Plastic Adhesive (the only one of the bunch that is designed for polyethelene hard to bond plastics): This behaves similarly to Goop/9001/E6000. No good.

 

Dapco 2100 Primerless Firewall Sealant (flexible, similar to silicone sealant, no fumes): Sticks to both the penny and the tube, but it separates. It's designed to be removable. Perhaps a very thick coating over a large area would be OK. For this test: No good.

 

Roughing the surface with sandpaper only made a difference with the 3M 5200, and in that case, it made the bond a lot worse.

 

I haven't “flame treated” the tubes. That was technique suggested after everything began curing. For the 1 or 2 suitable glues (the ones that “pop off” the container, rather than the glue itself breaking), I'll start over with the flame treatment.

 

Based on these results, if you can mechanically attach your items (such as using rivets, bolts, wire, magnets on the inside), that might be best. You could weld threads to the penny (for example), and bolt it to the container. Then seal the holes in the container using any sealant.

Edited by kunarion
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