Multi cache setup

[+zookeepertx]

Hello all,

 

I had posted a while back asking for opinions on how many steps would be acceptable in a multi and routing preferences. I've studied the area some more and have a couple of problems/questions.

 

1) In order to take people on the best route for arriving at the view the neatest way, there need to be (ready for this?) 11 stages!! It's because it's not a huge area, but there are a lot of little side trails, some of which are slipperier/steeper than is safe to let people mistakenly take. Only the trailhead and the first point have natural things that would send people the correct way, so I need to either have a container hidden at each of the rest of them, create some kind of marker at each turn, have a list of coords at the first point and expect people to make note of all the points, or have a map in the first point and expect people to copy it or return it to stage 1 when they're done.

 

2) The neatest path from the last (or next to last) point to the parking area is along a specific path, but there's NO location along that part of the path to hide a med-large container. What would you guys think of a multi where the larger container holding swag was the next to last point and then a micro or something at the end of the "preferred path" (to take people back to their vehicle on the most scenic route) that holds the log? Would that tick you off?

 

I'm sure I'm trying to do this in the most difficult way possible, but I tend to overthink things, LOL!

 

Thanks for any input!

[+CanadianRockies]

As an alternative to putting a stage at every turn, you could create Additional Waypoints for some of them, which would help guide geocachers along the route you consider to be best. At the extreme, you could create a traditional cache with Additional Waypoints to replace all your stages (except the final).

[+zookeepertx]

As an alternative to putting a stage at every turn, you could create Additional Waypoints for some of them, which would help guide geocachers along the route you consider to be best. At the extreme, you could create a traditional cache with Additional Waypoints to replace all your stages (except the final).

I've never needed to know this before, so don't think I'm stupid, but what, exactly are Additional Waypoints and how do they "function"? Are they listed on the cache page? If so, how do you keep people from skipping some of the steps?

[+niraD]

I've never needed to know this before, so don't think I'm stupid, but what, exactly are Additional Waypoints and how do they "function"? Are they listed on the cache page? If so, how do you keep people from skipping some of the steps?

See the Help Center article:

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=72

 

They're listed on the cache page with their coordinates if you specify the display setting as "Visible". But even if these waypoints are visible, you can't "keep people from skipping some of the steps" unless there is something they need at the waypoints to find the cache. If they can skip the waypoint and still find the cache, then some people will skip the waypoint.

[+niraD]

What would you guys think of a multi where the larger container holding swag was the next to last point and then a micro or something at the end of the "preferred path" (to take people back to their vehicle on the most scenic route) that holds the log? Would that tick you off?

You will probably end up with "replacement" logs in the larger container. People will sign those "replacement" logs and will think that they have completed the cache.

 

I've become a fan of using non-containers for anything that isn't the final cache. If the final location can support only a micro-cache, then make it a micro-cache. There's nothing wrong with that.

[+briansnat]

I think that will confuse poeple and the would log a find on the next to last stage

[+Isonzo Karst]

11 stages!! ....so I need to either have a container hidden at each of the rest of them, create some kind of marker at each turn,

 

I'm a prolific hider of caches, and own many multis.

 

I'd be thinking to use copper plant tags, and I'd create and place 2 identical stage tags at each location, typically one high, one low. Not on the same tree, if possible. That or one copper plant tag and one preform. This doubling of stage tags is now SOP for me. The copper wire that comes with tag is too fine to use. Need to change that out for something that can't flex to fail. They can be remarkably obvious in placement, and yet remain, unlike most other containers that people will take.

 

Copper plant tags come shiny, you can leave 'em like that, or sand lightly, dip in vinegar and let hang for a couple of days, they'll age to black and greenish. I try to place between waist and head high, in some obvious place near the nav point: the funny shaped pine, the horizontal oak - critical to use something that allows you to provide a simple hint reference.

 

There's enough time in simply finding each and loading coords that my effort is to make that find happen fast.

 

I'd make the large container the final and add your current "final" point as a visible additional waypoint (Reference), named "Name of cache, return navigation". If I were really being thorough, I'd put that waypoint at the top of pages of the logbook, so that it's seen.

I'd write the shortest, sweetest cache description I could. I see the common error of big mulits with big descriptions. It's killer.

 

why two tags?

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=5348533

 

http://coord.info/GC2X18Q

 

A bit more info comes to mind. As you're creating this, write the stages up as Stages of Multi type, but select VISIBLE (the default is hidden).

this way, a small cache page map will display those points on a map where you can see them all at once. Any number typos will likely become evident to you. Before you submit for review, you'll have to go through them all and change back to HIDDEN.

Your current final coords are "Reference point" and visible, along with parking coords, if any. Any visible additional waypoints on a cache page will load to people's gps units. CHANGE THE DEFAULT NAME OF THE POINT.

If you select Parking as Waypoint type, the "name" will auto-load as GCCODE Parking. I'd go with Name of Cache Parking (+GC CODE if space permits).

Edited April 20, 2015 by Isonzo Karst

[+Team Hugs]

11 stages!! ....so I need to either have a container hidden at each of the rest of them, create some kind of marker at each turn,

 

I'm a prolific hider of caches, and own many multis.

 

I'd be thinking to use copper plant tags [...]

 

I have nowhere near as much experience .... but I've seen similar multi-cache techniques using "ordinary" dog tags embossed with the coordinates of the next stage. Certainly much easier than hiding "real" containers at each stage. Copper plant tags might be a better approach (again, I'll rely on other's wisdom there) ... but the basic technique is sound.

[+Adventure.AS]

...

 

I'd be thinking to use copper plant tags, and I'd create and place 2 identical stage tags at each location, typically one high, one low. ...

 

 

Where do you get the letter/number dies to emboss the coordinates onto the tags; and where do you get the tags?

[+Isonzo Karst]

I bought a number punch set a while back, 6mm, big enough to read easily. It was amazingly cheap as I recall, under $10.

At that price, probably not super hard, for punching numbers into steel. Works fine on copper though ;-)

 

With the first tags I bought, I used the punches exclusively. I bought more tags that are soft enough for me to emboss by hand. I'm using a dead pen tip to do this. Allows me to do it in the field, corrections, replacements.

I create them mostly at home however, using punches and standing at a comfortable working level, as my handwriting is dreadful.

 

All buys through Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Bosmere-K494-Permanent-4-Inch-20-Pack/dp/B0078IF656/

 

I've seen dog tags and dog collar identifiers used as well. They're great, readable and sturdy, but get pricey.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Isonzo Karst

[knowschad]

...

 

I'd be thinking to use copper plant tags, and I'd create and place 2 identical stage tags at each location, typically one high, one low. ...

 

 

Where do you get the letter/number dies to emboss the coordinates onto the tags; and where do you get the tags?

 

Just about any good hardware store should have them, or you could buy them online. You WILL need letters AND numbers if you want to include the "N" and "W" (or "S"/"E") but you could get a much less expensive set with only digits, and simply have the numeric portion of the coords on the tag. People would understand what you mean.

 

Here's a set on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Number-Steel-Stamp-Jewelers/dp/B004DJV32S

 

Be aware that an 11 stage multi is not likely to get a lot of attention. There are plenty of cachers that will filter out even a two stage multi. That being said, I know of a few multi-caches that are so outstanding that they have brought people from far and wide to do.

[+zookeepertx]

Hi Nira - Thanks for the link, that's very helpful! It also led me to a page called "Planning Map" that has circles around existing caches. Could I be lucky enough that those circles represent the .1 mile radius around the cache? If so, I'll be deleriously happy!! I've been wishing I could find something like that! (Although, if it's true, then one potential location in another part of town is out of the question, but you can't have everything, LOL!)

 

Nira and Briansnat - I hadn't even thought about ending up with random "replacement" logs, but you're right. I'll scrap that idea.

 

Isonzo Karst - Great idea!! See, that's why I ask advice: someone's always going to come up with a perfect solution! Also, good idea about the "return navigation" waypoint. People would eventually find their way back to their vehicles without it, but they'd either have to retrace their steps or just wander around till they found their way, LOL! I don't want them cursing me by the time they're finished; that was my other reason for having that last step.

 

knowschad - the entire multi only requires .4-.5 miles of walking. Do you think that, if I let people know that it's only that long on the cache page, it would help people not be so reluctant to do it?

 

And thanks to everyone for the input!

Edited April 20, 2015 by zookeepertx

[+NanCycle]

 

the entire multi only requires .4-.5 miles of walking. Do you think that, if I let people know that it's only that long on the cache page, it would help people not be so reluctant to do it?

 

And thanks to everyone for the input!

 

Yes to that. I think it is essential to let people know how long the whole multi will be. I'd be really annoyed if I went to one stage and found out that the next stage was 20 miles away, whereas if I knew that in advance, I'd either plan for it, or skip it. Some people still won't do it, but more will if they know what to expect.

[+emmett]

.

 

There is no right or wrong here, at least not among the ideas mentioned. I do like your idea of placing many stages to guide cachers along the correct route. That's much better than the norm - a cache dropped anywhere in the woods with no further information to aid the hike. But you should be aware that most people will ignore a cache with more than a few stages. The average cacher wants simple, short and easy. Those of us who like harder and longer are a minority group here. So be sure you have the right expectations.

 

As for the last stage, I would create a small, log-only, bonus mystery cache. Coords to the mystery cache could be placed inside the multi final. That seems like the best of both worlds. People get a shot at a second smiley, and they have access to the best route back from the multi final.

 

.

[+K13]

You mentioned that there is about .5 miles walking between stages. Is there any driving as well? If so, put that on the cache page with the other information. I have been with a group that bailed on finding a multi, because there was too much driving between stages (maybe I can get back to that one some day). And like others have said, intermediate stages with containers may wind up getting log sheets and folks claiming finds, never making it to your final location.

 

I'll be on the look out for this cache....it may be inside my notification circle.

[+niraD]

It also led me to a page called "Planning Map" that has circles around existing caches. Could I be lucky enough that those circles represent the .1 mile radius around the cache? If so, I'll be deleriously happy!!

Yes, those circles represent the .1 mile (528ft, 161m) radius for the saturation guideline. But note that the final locations for multi-caches and mystery/puzzle caches are not shown, and any physical stages of multi-stage caches (other than the first) will not be shown.

 

Also, good idea about the "return navigation" waypoint.

FWIW, some reflector-based night caches have two trails (one from the start to the cache, and the other from the cache back to the start), each using a different color of reflectors. It's a similar idea, especially when the return path is more direct than the outbound path.

 

the entire multi only requires .4-.5 miles of walking. Do you think that, if I let people know that it's only that long on the cache page, it would help people not be so reluctant to do it?

I'm not sure it would make people want to do it, but it would help avoid unpleasant surprises for those who might be interested. I've done quick offset multi-caches and I've done multi-caches that took hours. There's a 54-stage multi-cache that I'd like to do sometime. But if I know how many stages, how much hiking, and/or approximately how much time will be required, then I can plan accordingly.

[+Hynz]

In order to take people on the best route for arriving at the view the neatest way, there need to be (ready for this?) 11 stages!!

the entire multi only requires .4-.5 miles of walking.

Seriously?

[+zookeepertx]

In order to take people on the best route for arriving at the view the neatest way, there need to be (ready for this?) 11 stages!!

the entire multi only requires .4-.5 miles of walking.

Seriously?

 

LOL! Yep, seriously. It's very wooded, but there are a number of little side trails that lead nowhere or end in impassible undergrowth. If you don't want to just meander till you find the right way, it's best to get steered in the right direction. Plus, it'll let me lead people in to have the view be a surprise.

[+zookeepertx]

 

As for the last stage, I would create a small, log-only, bonus mystery cache. Coords to the mystery cache could be placed inside the multi final. That seems like the best of both worlds. People get a shot at a second smiley, and they have access to the best route back from the multi final.

 

 

There's something I've wondered about for some time: can you explain the concept of "bonus cache" to me? If it's a different cache than the one it's "bonus-attached" to, doesn't that make it a separate cache? But if it's NOT a different cache, how do people get a second smiley? And does it have to be .1 mile from the original?

 

(Sometimes I'm kinda dense)

 

Jenny

[+zookeepertx]

You mentioned that there is about .5 miles walking between stages. Is there any driving as well? If so, put that on the cache page with the other information. I have been with a group that bailed on finding a multi, because there was too much driving between stages (maybe I can get back to that one some day). And like others have said, intermediate stages with containers may wind up getting log sheets and folks claiming finds, never making it to your final location.

 

I'll be on the look out for this cache....it may be inside my notification circle.

 

No, no driving at all. Hope you can come find it, if I ever get organized enough to place it. (My first multi; I'm learning a lot on this thread!)

[+zookeepertx]

Yes, those circles represent the .1 mile (528ft, 161m) radius for the saturation guideline. But note that the final locations for multi-caches and mystery/puzzle caches are not shown, and any physical stages of multi-stage caches (other than the first) will not be shown.

 

Awesome! The only thing that'd be better would be if I could find a website that would show me a similar circle without having to place a cache first. It would be helpful in comparing whether an area is even close to being available!

 

I'm not sure it would make people want to do it, but it would help avoid unpleasant surprises for those who might be interested. I've done quick offset multi-caches and I've done multi-caches that took hours. There's a 54-stage multi-cache that I'd like to do sometime. But if I know how many stages, how much hiking, and/or approximately how much time will be required, then I can plan accordingly.

 

Wow - 54 stages?? WAYYYY more ambitious than I am!

[+niraD]

There's something I've wondered about for some time: can you explain the concept of "bonus cache" to me? If it's a different cache than the one it's "bonus-attached" to, doesn't that make it a separate cache? But if it's NOT a different cache, how do people get a second smiley? And does it have to be .1 mile from the original?

A bonus cache is a type of mystery/puzzle cache. From the Help Center article Mystery/Puzzle:

 

"Bonus Geocaches Clues to the bonus geocache location (often coordinates, or partial coordinates in several geocaches) are hidden in one or more other geocaches. Generally, clues for a bonus geocache should not be placed in another bonus geocache, and the bonus geocache belongs to the owner of the geocaches where clues are found."

 

Usually, there will be a series of caches, and each cache in the series includes part of the information you need to produce the coordinates for the bonus cache. But a bonus cache is sometimes created for a single cache.

 

And as a separate cache, the saturation guideline applies to it, and finding it gives you another smiley (in addition to any you get for finding the caches in the series).

[+Isonzo Karst]

Awesome! The only thing that'd be better would be if I could find a website that would show me a similar circle without having to place a cache first.

 

Well, there's this website, it's called Geocaching.com - if you put your proposed cache coords into the search function there, it'll come up with a list of nearby caches, with distances. Turns out those are exactly the same values that the planning map is going to show you: the listing coords for Traditional cache and for staged caches. This will NOT help with hidden stages of things, but neither will the planning map. If you're smart phone equipped, you can check this in the field, if not, you can check it from home, once you have some proposed cache coords.

 

You can also load all the nearby caches into your gps device, so as you're considering cache placements, you can check for nearest from where you stand. If your device is telling you there's a cache within .1, you have a problem. Be careful about field readings, people suppose that their device saying > .1 miles is right, but with an error margin of -+ 30ft on both ends of the reading, you can see 528ft in the field, that's going to calculate as 485ft. I always look for a field minimum of .12 miles distance from any known cache, when placing.

 

Re bonus cache, to be listed on Geocaching.com, it needs to be 528ft from any other cache. It's a free standing cache. It's "bonus" to some other cache(s) because the info to find it is in the other cache(s).

Edited April 24, 2015 by Isonzo Karst

[+zookeepertx]

Awesome! The only thing that'd be better would be if I could find a website that would show me a similar circle without having to place a cache first.

 

Well, there's this website, it's called Geocaching.com - if you put your proposed cache coords into the search function there, it'll come up with a list of nearby caches, with distances.

 

Very funny, LOL! But what if I'm thinking about placing 2 caches in an area and need to determine how far away from the first location I have to go to look for a spot for the second one? Obviously, GPSs have a variance and mapping websites may have a variance, so I want to make sure I get them placed far enough apart. I'm thinking about a bonus cache, secondary to the "main" one, with the bonus acting to send cachers the right way to find their cars again without having to backtrack the whole trail, LOL!

 

Re bonus cache, to be listed on Geocaching.com, it needs to be 528ft from any other cache. It's a free standing cache. It's "bonus" to some other cache(s) because the info to find it is in the other cache(s).

 

So, I assume the bonus cache isn't actually listed by itself on Geocaching.com? So, how do people get their smiley?

 

Thanks!

[+niraD]

So, I assume the bonus cache isn't actually listed by itself on Geocaching.com? So, how do people get their smiley?

The bonus caches that I've seen have been listed on geocaching.com as mystery/puzzle caches. You get your smiley by collecting information from the caches in the series, using that information to determine the coordinates of the bonus cache, and then finding and logging the bonus cache.

 

I've heard of bonus caches that are not listed, but I've never encountered one in the field. As I understand it, you find a listed cache, it tells you the coordinates for the unlisted bonus cache, and you get a smiley for the unlisted bonus cache by logging the listed cache a second time.

[+Isonzo Karst]

what if I'm thinking about placing 2 caches in an area and need to determine how far away from the first location I have to go to look for a spot for the second one?

 

You can use the Boulter website to check the distances between 2 sets of coords

http://boulter.com/gps/distance/

 

Also, in the field, if you've decided where Cache #1 goes, and saved that waypoint, load it as a "go to" and move away from it until it's reading AT LEAST .12 miles away. Now you can start looking for a spot for Cache #2. Obviously you need to be paying attention to any other nearby published caches.

 

So, I assume the bonus cache isn't actually listed by itself on Geocaching.com? So, how do people get their smiley?

 

If you want people to "get a smiley", then the bonus cache IS listed on Geocaching.com. It's a Mystery cache, with coords on the listing as just a general reference point (often parking), within 2 miles of the physical cache.

To solve for the actual cache location, find info in the cache(s) that it is bonus to.

These used to be pretty common, now not so much. They have the weakness that they become unfindable if any of the cache(s) they're bonus to fail, or if the info (often as text in the logbook) becomes illegible.

 

I've heard of bonus caches that are not listed, but I've never encountered one in the field. As I understand it, you find a listed cache, it tells you the coordinates for the unlisted bonus cache, and you get a smiley for the unlisted bonus cache by logging the listed cache a second time.

 

Unlisted bonus caches were commonplace in my area a while back. No one ever expected a smiley for them. It was a just second opportunity to hunt and a find a cache.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Isonzo Karst

[+zookeepertx]

I've actually found several websites that will measure between 2 points, but what if I've got several different possible locations for caches and have a limited area in which to put the first cache and the bonus cache. Then I have to sit here and enter all the different possibilities and try to see exactly which ones are far enough apart vs which are the spots I'd prefer to use, if possible. It'd be SO cool if I could plug in the points and see a circle representing a .1 mi radius around each point and see what intersects.

 

I assume it's okay for the bonus cache to also be a multi, right? (It turns out that my first choice for a location can end up under water when we're having a Texas monsoon season like we are now, LOL!)

 

Another thing I can't remember - do EACH of the points in a multi have to be .1 mi from the points in another multi?

 

I'm completely sure I'm over-thinking this, but I don't want to have anymore tension with the reviewer.

 

Thanks for all of your input!

[+niraD]

Another thing I can't remember - do EACH of the points in a multi have to be .1 mi from the points in another multi?

All the physical stages of your cache have to be at least 0.1mi from the physical stages of any other cache.

 

It doesn't matter what type the other cache is. Its physical stages count against the saturation guideline.

 

Virtual waypoints (which use existing objects, and where the owner hasn't placed anything) do not count against the saturation guidelines. That applies both to your cache's virtual waypoints, and the virtual waypoints of any other caches.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Then I have to sit here and enter all the different possibilities ...if I could plug in the points

 

EasyGPS has an "active point" command. EasyGPS is a free download. Iillustration below is from ExpertGPS, but i know that Easygps has the active point command, it may look a little different).

 

Set a waypoint in a file as "active point", be sure to ask for "distance from active" as one of info columns.

The distance between the active point and each other waypoint in the file will be displayed.

It's easy to alter "active" from one point to another if you're wanting to test various scenarios.

 

[+zookeepertx]

Another thing I can't remember - do EACH of the points in a multi have to be .1 mi from the points in another multi?

All the physical stages of your cache have to be at least 0.1mi from the physical stages of any other cache.

 

It doesn't matter what type the other cache is. Its physical stages count against the saturation guideline.

 

Virtual waypoints (which use existing objects, and where the owner hasn't placed anything) do not count against the saturation guidelines. That applies both to your cache's virtual waypoints, and the virtual waypoints of any other caches.

 

Oh, so if I use just those little brass plant tags, in a tree or something, with coordinates to the next waypoint, each of those counts as a physical stage, I guess. Well that's going to complicate things. What about if I have a trailhead on the cache page, just to get people started at the right spot; (the cache coordinates on the page would be where you go from there)? Does that count as a waypoint? I hope not, because that would REALLY cause a problem!

[+zookeepertx]

Then I have to sit here and enter all the different possibilities ...if I could plug in the points

 

EasyGPS has an "active point" command. EasyGPS is a free download. Iillustration below is from ExpertGPS, but i know that Easygps has the active point command, it may look a little different).

 

Set a waypoint in a file as "active point", be sure to ask for "distance from active" as one of info columns.

The distance between the active point and each other waypoint in the file will be displayed.

It's easy to alter "active" from one point to another if you're wanting to test various scenarios.

 

Hey! I used to have EasyGPS on my old computer! I never did figure out how to use it properly, though; it confused me SO bad, LOL! I'm sure it's evolved since then and is probably easier to navigate. I'll give it a try. Thanks!!

[+lumbricus]

...But you should be aware that most people will ignore a cache with more than a few stages. The average cacher wants simple, short and easy. Those of us who like harder and longer are a minority group here. So be sure you have the right expectations...

That's true, so my new multi will be visited not so often I guess. 42 qta stages combined with a 22 miles walk. A lot of work. The qta are all sings about geology, animals, plants, etc. It starts at the origin of a river and follows to the mouth.

 

[+zookeepertx]

...But you should be aware that most people will ignore a cache with more than a few stages. The average cacher wants simple, short and easy. Those of us who like harder and longer are a minority group here. So be sure you have the right expectations...

That's true, so my new multi will be visited not so often I guess. 42 qta stages combined with a 22 miles walk. A lot of work. The qta are all sings about geology, animals, plants, etc. It starts at the origin of a river and follows to the mouth.

 

Wow! You're WAY more ambitious than I am, LOL!

[+Gill & Tony]

So, I assume the bonus cache isn't actually listed by itself on Geocaching.com? So, how do people get their smiley?

 

Thanks!

If you want an example of one way to set up a bonus cache, I have 3 caches around Narrawallee Beach. You have to find Where's Wallee #1 and Where's Wallee #2. #1 has the southing coordinates for #3 and #2 has the easting coordinates. Hovever, one digit of each is replaced by an "N". Halfway along the beach is a sign which contains the missing digit.

 

Then you can find #3

 

You can see the details from my profile

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Another thing I can't remember - do EACH of the points in a multi have to be .1 mi from the points in another multi?

All the physical stages of your cache have to be at least 0.1mi from the physical stages of any other cache.

 

It doesn't matter what type the other cache is. Its physical stages count against the saturation guideline.

 

Virtual waypoints (which use existing objects, and where the owner hasn't placed anything) do not count against the saturation guidelines. That applies both to your cache's virtual waypoints, and the virtual waypoints of any other caches.

 

Oh, so if I use just those little brass plant tags, in a tree or something, with coordinates to the next waypoint, each of those counts as a physical stage, I guess. Well that's going to complicate things. What about if I have a trailhead on the cache page, just to get people started at the right spot; (the cache coordinates on the page would be where you go from there)? Does that count as a waypoint? I hope not, because that would REALLY cause a problem!

 

It would count as a waypoint but not as a physical stage since you didn't place anything at the location and proximity to other physical stages would not be an issue. Once you place an object (like a brass plant tag or even a rock with coordinates written on it) at a location it becomes a physical stage and must be more than 528' from the physical stage of any other cache, including the multi the stage is in.

 

Of course, this gets muddied a bit with the allowance of firetacks for night caches.

 

The use of waypoints for parking or trail heads is something that I think most geocachers appreciate.

 

 

[+zookeepertx]

If you want an example of one way to set up a bonus cache, I have 3 caches around Narrawallee Beach. You have to find Where's Wallee #1 and Where's Wallee #2. #1 has the southing coordinates for #3 and #2 has the easting coordinates. Hovever, one digit of each is replaced by an "N". Halfway along the beach is a sign which contains the missing digit.

 

Then you can find #3

 

You can see the details from my profile

 

Thanks for the info! Sounds like a fun series!

[+zookeepertx]

It would count as a waypoint but not as a physical stage since you didn't place anything at the location and proximity to other physical stages would not be an issue. Once you place an object (like a brass plant tag or even a rock with coordinates written on it) at a location it becomes a physical stage and must be more than 528' from the physical stage of any other cache, including the multi the stage is in.

 

Wait - WHAT? I was under the impression that the individual stages of a single multi didn't have to be 528' apart! Oh, this is going to be a HUGE problem! I have to start completely over now and re-think the entire thing!

Bummer!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It would count as a waypoint but not as a physical stage since you didn't place anything at the location and proximity to other physical stages would not be an issue. Once you place an object (like a brass plant tag or even a rock with coordinates written on it) at a location it becomes a physical stage and must be more than 528' from the physical stage of any other cache, including the multi the stage is in.

 

Wait - WHAT? I was under the impression that the individual stages of a single multi didn't have to be 528' apart! Oh, this is going to be a HUGE problem! I have to start completely over now and re-think the entire thing!

Bummer!

 

Sorry. I meant to type "not including the multi the stage is in". Here is what it says in the guideline:

 

"Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements."

 

 

[Pup Patrol]

Wait - WHAT? I was under the impression that the individual stages of a single multi didn't have to be 528' apart! Oh, this is going to be a HUGE problem! I have to start completely over now and re-think the entire thing!

Bummer!

 

Perhaps reading the Guidelines and the relevant Help Center articles might be a better option. All these issues and questions are clearly explained by Groundspeak.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Click the link that says "7. Physical elements of different geocaches should be at least 0.10 miles (528 ft or 161 m) apart."

 

And I strongly suggest the Help Center as a valuable resource.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php

 

Help Center → Hiding a Geocache

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.book&id=19

 

1.13. Saturation Guideline: Hidden, Virtual and Additional Waypoints

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=232

 

1.16. Stages and Additional Waypoints

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=72

 

1.19. Mystery/Puzzle (regarding "bonus" caches)

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=277

 

B.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Pup Patrol

[+zookeepertx]

It would count as a waypoint but not as a physical stage since you didn't place anything at the location and proximity to other physical stages would not be an issue. Once you place an object (like a brass plant tag or even a rock with coordinates written on it) at a location it becomes a physical stage and must be more than 528' from the physical stage of any other cache, including the multi the stage is in.

 

Wait - WHAT? I was under the impression that the individual stages of a single multi didn't have to be 528' apart! Oh, this is going to be a HUGE problem! I have to start completely over now and re-think the entire thing!

Bummer!

 

Sorry. I meant to type "not including the multi the stage is in". Here is what it says in the guideline:

 

"Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements."

 

Ah, okay. Whew! I should be good then. Now my only problem (well, maybe not my ONLY one, LOL!) is that the initial cache goes TO the destination via one trail and the bonus cache will be used to bring people back to the parking area through the more scenic trail instead of having to backtrack. But, the trails run closer together than 528'.

 

I wonder, what if the first stage of the initial cache contained directions (such as: go to coordinates XXXXX N XXXXX W and turn right at the intersection of the trails. Continue to coordinates XXXXX N XXXXX W and turn right to - cache coordinates), would those interval coordinates be considered physical stages? If not, then I could do the same with the bonus cache without a problem. Of course, this would require people to either copy down the coords/directions or stand there plugging the coords in their GPS. OR - I guess I could stock the first stage with slips of paper giving the directions and just replenish them as people took them. Then do the same inside the initial cache!

 

I wonder if that would work or if someone would just take them all right off the bat.

[+zookeepertx]

Wait - WHAT? I was under the impression that the individual stages of a single multi didn't have to be 528' apart! Oh, this is going to be a HUGE problem! I have to start completely over now and re-think the entire thing!

Bummer!

 

Perhaps reading the Guidelines and the relevant Help Center articles might be a better option. All these issues and questions are clearly explained by Groundspeak.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Click the link that says "7. Physical elements of different geocaches should be at least 0.10 miles (528 ft or 161 m) apart."

 

And I strongly suggest the Help Center as a valuable resource.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php

 

Help Center → Hiding a Geocache

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.book&id=19

 

1.13. Saturation Guideline: Hidden, Virtual and Additional Waypoints

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=232

 

1.16. Stages and Additional Waypoints

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=72

 

1.19. Mystery/Puzzle (regarding "bonus" caches)

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=277

 

B.

 

Thanks for the great links! I can never seem to find stuff like that when I go looking! Sometimes I run across them by accident, but then can't find them again when I want them! Plus, I generally suck at figuring out written (typed?) instructions; I do better when a "real person" addresses the problem. But those pages are pretty clear, even to me, LOL!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It would count as a waypoint but not as a physical stage since you didn't place anything at the location and proximity to other physical stages would not be an issue. Once you place an object (like a brass plant tag or even a rock with coordinates written on it) at a location it becomes a physical stage and must be more than 528' from the physical stage of any other cache, including the multi the stage is in.

 

Wait - WHAT? I was under the impression that the individual stages of a single multi didn't have to be 528' apart! Oh, this is going to be a HUGE problem! I have to start completely over now and re-think the entire thing!

Bummer!

 

Sorry. I meant to type "not including the multi the stage is in". Here is what it says in the guideline:

 

"Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements."

 

Ah, okay. Whew! I should be good then. Now my only problem (well, maybe not my ONLY one, LOL!) is that the initial cache goes TO the destination via one trail and the bonus cache will be used to bring people back to the parking area through the more scenic trail instead of having to backtrack. But, the trails run closer together than 528'.

 

I wonder, what if the first stage of the initial cache contained directions (such as: go to coordinates XXXXX N XXXXX W and turn right at the intersection of the trails. Continue to coordinates XXXXX N XXXXX W and turn right to - cache coordinates), would those interval coordinates be considered physical stages? If not, then I could do the same with the bonus cache without a problem. Of course, this would require people to either copy down the coords/directions or stand there plugging the coords in their GPS. OR - I guess I could stock the first stage with slips of paper giving the directions and just replenish them as people took them. Then do the same inside the initial cache!

 

I wonder if that would work or if someone would just take them all right off the bat.

 

If I'm reading this right the coordinates at the intersection of trails or even if it was a spot along a trail which would tell someone where to leave the trail to start a bushwack would be considered reference points rather than a physical stage. A pre-existing physical object is a reference point or virtual stage (and immune to proximity limitations) unless you add a physical object at that location. You could add slips of paper to the first or any subsequent physcial stage (adding a slip of paper or writing the set of coordinates on a piece of wood or a rock would still make it a physical stage) but that is going to increase the amount of maintenance. I've tried to do a few caches which involved finding several caches, each with a piece of paper containing a number need to find a bonus and in each case one of the stages was missing or no longer contained a strip of paper needed to derive the final coordinates.

 

One of the common methods for incorporating existing physical objects into a multi is to asked the seekers to count the number of objects at a specific location. For example, go to N 12 34.567 W 76 54.321. There you will find a large dead tree. Count the number of branches on the tree and assign that number as A. For the next location, goto N 12 34.(600 + A) W 76 54.(400 - (3 * A))

 

Yes, that requires some simple arithmatic but it means one has to be at the specific coordinates in order to gather information necessary for the subsequent waypoint. By constructing a simple math problem, and adding or subtracting a constant, you can derive any set of coordinates needed.

 

 

[+zookeepertx]

Ah, okay. Whew! I should be good then. Now my only problem (well, maybe not my ONLY one, LOL!) is that the initial cache goes TO the destination via one trail and the bonus cache will be used to bring people back to the parking area through the more scenic trail instead of having to backtrack. But, the trails run closer together than 528'.

 

I wonder, what if the first stage of the initial cache contained directions (such as: go to coordinates XXXXX N XXXXX W and turn right at the intersection of the trails. Continue to coordinates XXXXX N XXXXX W and turn right to - cache coordinates), would those interval coordinates be considered physical stages? If not, then I could do the same with the bonus cache without a problem. Of course, this would require people to either copy down the coords/directions or stand there plugging the coords in their GPS. OR - I guess I could stock the first stage with slips of paper giving the directions and just replenish them as people took them. Then do the same inside the initial cache!

 

I wonder if that would work or if someone would just take them all right off the bat.

 

If I'm reading this right the coordinates at the intersection of trails or even if it was a spot along a trail which would tell someone where to leave the trail to start a bushwack would be considered reference points rather than a physical stage. A pre-existing physical object is a reference point or virtual stage (and immune to proximity limitations) unless you add a physical object at that location. You could add slips of paper to the first or any subsequent physcial stage (adding a slip of paper or writing the set of coordinates on a piece of wood or a rock would still make it a physical stage) but that is going to increase the amount of maintenance. I've tried to do a few caches which involved finding several caches, each with a piece of paper containing a number need to find a bonus and in each case one of the stages was missing or no longer contained a strip of paper needed to derive the final coordinates.

 

One of the common methods for incorporating existing physical objects into a multi is to asked the seekers to count the number of objects at a specific location. For example, go to N 12 34.567 W 76 54.321. There you will find a large dead tree. Count the number of branches on the tree and assign that number as A. For the next location, goto N 12 34.(600 + A) W 76 54.(400 - (3 * A))

 

Yes, that requires some simple arithmatic but it means one has to be at the specific coordinates in order to gather information necessary for the subsequent waypoint. By constructing a simple math problem, and adding or subtracting a constant, you can derive any set of coordinates needed.

 

I've looked around and studied the areas around each turn and intersection pretty well and can't see anything to use for reference points. I'll have another look, but I don't think it's likely.

 

Sorry, I didn't explain well. I was thinking of the very first stage having a note giving a sequence of waypoints, such as telling people to go to coordinates A and and turn right and then go to coordinates B and turn right and then give the coordinates to the cache. All instructions would be in the note in the first stage and there wouldn't be anything physically at coordinates A or B.

 

Then there would be another note in the cache with the same sort of information leading to the Bonus Cache. So, there would really only be 2, maybe 3 physical stages, besides the actual caches.

 

I wonder if that would be "legal".

Edited May 31, 2015 by zookeepertx

[+niraD]

Sorry, I didn't explain well. I was thinking of the very first stage having a note giving a sequence of waypoints, such as telling people to go to coordinates A and and turn right and then go to coordinates B and turn right and then give the coordinates to the cache. All instructions would be in the note in the first stage and there wouldn't be anything physically at coordinates A or B.

That sounds like the first stage would be a physical "stage of a multi-cache", that A and B would be virtual "reference points", and the final cache location, of course.

 

That should be workable. I've seen other caches with "fork in the trail" reference waypoints, and I've seen other caches with information at the first stage that explained how to navigate to the final location. It sounds like you should keep the first stage stocked with paper copies of the instructions. That might be easier than getting people to write down the instructions, or to return a laminated copy of the instructions to the first stage.

 

Then there would be another note in the cache with the same sort of information leading to the Bonus Cache. So, there would really only be 2, maybe 3 physical stages, besides the actual caches.

If you list the bonus cache as a mystery/puzzle cache, then it would have the virtual "reference points" for the route to the cache, plus the final cache location, plus a reference to the original cache.

 

So far, with the original cache plus the bonus cache, I count only 1 physical waypoint plus the 2 final cache locations. The rest are all virtual. Unless there's something else that you haven't mentioned (or that you mentioned earlier in the thread but I've forgotten).

[+narcissa]

I've looked around and studied the areas around each turn and intersection pretty well and can't see anything to use for reference points. I'll have another look, but I don't think it's likely.

 

Sorry, I didn't explain well. I was thinking of the very first stage having a note giving a sequence of waypoints, such as telling people to go to coordinates A and and turn right and then go to coordinates B and turn right and then give the coordinates to the cache. All instructions would be in the note in the first stage and there wouldn't be anything physically at coordinates A or B.

 

Then there would be another note in the cache with the same sort of information leading to the Bonus Cache. So, there would really only be 2, maybe 3 physical stages, besides the actual caches.

 

I wonder if that would be "legal".

 

Sounds like it could make a great Letterbox Hybrid, minus the "Bonus Cache."