Drop in finds

[+matthew-h]

As an owner of a dozen caches in greater London, the number of logs I have recieved has dropped off considerably in the last few weeks.

 

I am sure it's just a blip, but wondered if any other cache owners had noticed it, and if it's to do with the launch of Pokemon Go.

[+NanCycle]

As an owner of a dozen caches in greater London, the number of logs I have recieved has dropped off considerably in the last few weeks.

 

I am sure it's just a blip, but wondered if any other cache owners had noticed it, and if it's to do with the launch of Pokemon Go.

 

The number of logs I have received has increased dramatically in the last few weeks; this has to do with GeoWoodstock14 being held just about 100 miles up the road.

 

Edited: Sorry, not relevant to this forum; I saw the post in recent topics and just jumped in with my eyes closed.

Edited August 2, 2016 by NanCycle

[+Yorkshire Yellow]

I haven't really noticed a change to be honest.

[+hal-an-tow]

As an owner of a dozen caches in greater London, the number of logs I have recieved has dropped off considerably in the last few weeks.

 

I am sure it's just a blip, but wondered if any other cache owners had noticed it, and if it's to do with the launch of Pokemon Go.

 

My caches have been around for a while, and now most locals have found them they don't get hit very often anymore. Interesting UK wide statistics here which show a slight fall in finds , but a far greater fall in caches set.

 

The smiley icon only/TFTC logs (predominantly but not exclusively from app users) are no motivation to me to put loads of new easy caches out either, so I shall not be much help halting the decline !

[+maxkim]

I haven't noticed a drop off in finds on my London caches... Max

[+redsox_mark]

Project GC has stats about overall finds. Here is the current data.

 

Unique caches found in United Kingdom 2016 2015 Difference

Last week 43484 61987 -18503 -30%

Last month 120010 118785 1225 +1%

Since 1st of January 198559 190616 7943 +4%

Whole year 198559 204651 -6092 -3%

 

So pretty flat. It shows 30% less last week than the same week in 2015, though I don't think that is statistically significant. The rate for the month is about the same as last year.

 

My own caches are mainly puzzles, multis, and Wherigos; which don't get found much regardless, so it is hard for me to tell.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

Project GC has stats about overall finds. Here is the current data.

 

Unique caches found in United Kingdom 2016 2015 Difference

Last week 43484 61987 -18503 -30%

Last month 120010 118785 1225 +1%

Since 1st of January 198559 190616 7943 +4%

Whole year 198559 204651 -6092 -3%

 

So pretty flat. It shows 30% less last week than the same week in 2015, though I don't think that is statistically significant. The rate for the month is about the same as last year.

 

My own caches are mainly puzzles, multis, and Wherigos; which don't get found much regardless, so it is hard for me to tell.

 

I've been watching the UK Stats on ProjectGC multiple times a month for several years. And this is the first year that there has been any sort of drop in Unique finds on caches within the UK. In fact until the Souvenirs by Groundspeak this year, the outlook was completely negative.

 

As for Geocaches published in the UK, that figure has been dropping year on year for the last 3 years, how long will it be before it's a negative split? Where more caches are being archived in a year, than are being published.

 

If the growth rate in the UK, had continued to ramp up the way it was, we'd now have over 225,000 + Active caches in the UK. Instead we've not yet hit 200,000.

 

Some of that is down to the UK Community, but some is down to the UK Reviewers and Groundspeak, who are driving Active Quality Cache Setters, out of the hobby. With the Corporate comes First ethos, which now pervades bot groups. And that is truly saddening.

 

And before anyone says anything, going way back to 2000/2001/2002/2003, there was dross out there, so that has not changed. Just the percentage of dross has increased and the numbers of active caches has increased. But also the unneeded, unwarranted and personal agenda Guidelines Rules, now being applied within the UK.

 

With the Growth of the Hobby, some Guidelines, were needed putting in place, to protect the long term hobby within the UK. What is now happening, is all about, how quick can we destroy the hobby within the UK, by destroying the fantastic community here in the UK. And that is truly saddening.

 

So Jeremy and Brian, you need to come out of your Ivory Corporate Tower, and smell the Non Roses, that the Hobby in the UK has become, because of your Employees and Volunteers, who have disconnected from the Community. And that makes me cry, because I've watched the hobby and Community in the UK, grow from one based underground, into a main stream one, now I'm watching the disintegration of both!

 

Dave

Geocaching since 2002

Reviewer 2006-2014. Resigning, because I always put the Community First, over Groundspeak! And would not allow myself to be shackled by a book sized Volunteer Expectations Document (in 2006, that was just half a page long!)

 

The Truth is Out There!

[+redsox_mark]

Dave, I've only been caching since 2009, and I've not been a reviewer, so I don't have the history and perspective that you do. But I don't recognise the picture you have painted. I believe the slowdown in placements is largely down to saturation; in many areas it is getting harder to hide caches. I've recently come back from my first Mega event (North Wales) and had a great time there and found some amazing caches.

 

It's not perfect. I don't agree with everything Groundspeak or our Reviewers do. I think challenges caches have been made too restrictive. I see cases where I feel reviewers are being too quick to disable caches due to a few DNFs. I've enjoyed finding caches underground, and am disappointed that recent guidelines are making these harder to publish or keep going. And I feel the recent UK event changes could have been handled better.

 

The community that I know may grumble a bit.. we all do. And I'm sure people are always walking away when they get fed up with something. But in the community I know (the people I know personally), I'm not seeing people leaving the game.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

Dave, I've only been caching since 2009, and I've not been a reviewer, so I don't have the history and perspective that you do. But I don't recognise the picture you have painted. I believe the slowdown in placements is largely down to saturation; in many areas it is getting harder to hide caches. I've recently come back from my first Mega event (North Wales) and had a great time there and found some amazing caches.

 

It's not perfect. I don't agree with everything Groundspeak or our Reviewers do. I think challenges caches have been made too restrictive. I see cases where I feel reviewers are being too quick to disable caches due to a few DNFs. I've enjoyed finding caches underground, and am disappointed that recent guidelines are making these harder to publish or keep going. And I feel the recent UK event changes could have been handled better.

 

The community that I know may grumble a bit.. we all do. And I'm sure people are always walking away when they get fed up with something. But in the community I know (the people I know personally), I'm not seeing people leaving the game.

 

I've been hearing the saturation excuse for years yes some areas are Saturated, but that is a tiny percentage of the UK. The hardcore Outdoor enthusiasts who created the hobby within the UK. Were happy to spend hours searching for "just the right location". Take that attitude, and there are millions of suitable locations within the UK.

 

Of the top of my Head in my local area, I could plant over 100 caches, and not hit saturation! It is just a handful of areas affected.

 

As for people leaving the hobby, my experience comes from not only starting Geocaching, way back when everyone in the community knew each other, and watching the community grow. But from a unique perspective, in that I reviewed, every part of the UK. Not just during Training, or Holiday cover, but every day for several years. I've seen Geocachers dropping the hobby, because they hate the way Groundspeak and the UK Reviewers, who are supposed to be the communities representatives to Groundspeak. Are taking the hobby in the wrong way.

 

Yes I know there have been major disagreements, over the way Jeremy Irish, was taking the hobby, way back in 2000/2001. With the Creator of the Hobby, walking away. And others creating competing Listing Sites (4 OR 5), but for the most part, those people were happy, with occasional blips.

 

But with the on-boarding of new UK Reviewers, who did not view things in the same way, began a change for the worst. Who remembers the fact that the UK, had with the permission off Jeremy Irish. Could mention Pubs on a cache Listing. Did you know it was just a number of UK Reviewers, who formed a majority decision, who removed that right. That was not for the communities benefit, but because the "right" did not meet the commercial Guidelines!

 

I've just had someone point out to me, that you can no longer submit a event over 90 days ahead, when there used to be Reviewer Leeway, so if it was 97 days run in, you could submit it, and know it would be published.

 

These and other issues, are driving out, some of those who built this hobby and community. Names which to the majority mean nothing. Yet to others, mean inventive and very creative and totally unique caches.

 

I can list close on a hundred people, who have quit Geocaching, because of the way the Hobby is being taken. Sadly a very experienced Cache setter/Event Organiser has this year alone, quit the hobby. All because of the insane Event Guidelines put in place, with out needing to by the UK Reviewers (Event Guidelines which do not apply across the water in Ireland) so not a Groundspeak initiative. Sadly his kick in the teeth, came well before these became active by the rest of the UK Reviewers. And yes I did see the evidence.

 

Two plus years on since I resigned (and I saw the downturn happening in 2012, when Groundspeak went Corporate) I still have people coming to me for advice, because they feel they can go to the UK Reviewers I also still hear "I wish you were still a Reviewer"! So whose approach is right?

 

Groundspeak's current Corporate Stance

 

or

 

Groundspeak's early stance, of allowing Local Reviewers, do what is best for their local communities. No slavishly applying Guidelines, and only putting in Local Ones, to Protect the Hobby Long Term.

 

Around 2012, when the Growth of the Hobby Worldwide was huge, I was the only person to state that the Hobby would ramp up, hit a plateau, then decline. Just like what happened to Skateboarding in the UK and Roller blading, neither of which have climbed back up to their peak levels, despite Skateboarding being a 2020 Olympic Sport. The reason for the statement? I could see the way Groundspeak and the UK Reviewers were going, the Underground, unrestricted hobby was gone, and the freedom giving Hobby was going the same way.

 

Oh and do you know who created the saturation issue? A combination of Groundspeak and the World Reviewer Community, who could not agree on a definition of what constituted a Power Trail. So eventually rather than work on one, because they were desperate for growth, Groundspeak threw the Power Trail Guideline in the bin. And yes I had a relaxed definition, whilst others, had a insanely strict version. A proper definition, would allow for fluidity and avoid the stupid situation of a cache per every 160m.

 

But we will disagree, because your experience of Geocaching, is different to mine, neither of us right, and yet both of us right in our own experiences. But what is unarguable, is that we are slowly heading for a Negative Split, and Groundspeak and the UK Reviewers approach to that, will not change that

 

I'd love to sit down with Jeremy Irish, and Brian Roth, and discuss, changes, which I believe could help turn around the heading to a negative split. But that would require them dumping the Corporate ethos, and going back to a Company Run By Geocachers, for the Benefit of Geocachers. With the Community the priority.

 

Here is a question! What happens to Groundspeak, when the Community which is it's cash cow, severely dries up? Will it be the Employees going first, or will it be Bandwidth and Server Space? Either will happen when the Negative Split starts to kick in, and the Cash Cow leaves in hoards. Then what happens to the Hobby? It's a frightening thought, a dark vision I've been seeing for years with horror. Oh and that number I said I could list, were all PM's, so cache cows, in the Hobby for the long term. Not a App user, who jumps on to the next "in thing" App. Long term, what will Pokemon App have on Groundspeak's Apps? Another Cash Cow drying up?

[+redsox_mark]

Just a couple more points from me.

 

I agree the UK is not saturated, in that there are lots of places still to hide caches. Some hiders will travel far; others can only hide close to home. My point about "saturation" is that it is more difficult (for those who have restrictions on how far they can travel) to hide caches than when there were far fewer. But I agree it doesn't explain a drop in hides.

 

I took a quick look at US statistics; and while there is less of a drop (it is more flat), hides are down there too. Is that down to Groundspeak, or some natural forces where interest is reaching a natural peak? Anything which is new, starts from zero, then grows; but may not grow forever. Other new things come and compete; which is where this thread started, is Pokemon Go having an impact? It may be; but that doesn't explain a 3 year trend.

 

And I don't doubt that people are leaving the game. People have always left it. People get tired of things, or something annoys them.

 

What I don't see - and it is just my own experience - is a specific, big, UK issue, down to how the game is managed in the UK. I do see that Groundspeak seems to be exerting more control than before; leaving less to the UK reviewers. And I also see the UK reviewers wanting to create more guidelines themselves - I believe motivated by there being more of them and wanting consistency, rather then because of some personal agenda. As for the new reviewers - I can't speak for them all, but I've found the new reviewer in my area very helpful to work with. Probably more so than some slightly less new ones to be honest! Though Dave was never my reviewer!

 

My last thought, and a totally selfish one. When I started caching in 2009, there was fast growth. I was worried that the game would become too common, too well known. I liked that it was played my a small minority, and that in general the world didn't know we existed. (I didn't know "we" existed until 2009, if I had, I would have joined sooner). I don't want to see Groundspeak fail; but don't want to see the game become too mainstream.

[+dartymoor]

My last thought, and a totally selfish one. When I started caching in 2009, there was fast growth. I was worried that the game would become too common, too well known. I liked that it was played my a small minority, and that in general the world didn't know we existed. (I didn't know "we" existed until 2009, if I had, I would have joined sooner). I don't want to see Groundspeak fail; but don't want to see the game become too mainstream.

 

If Groundspeak did fail, it would at least open the field for others. This game is by its essence a monopoly - a single source for caches and, importantly for some, a place to keep score and work on statistics. Others exist but they are tiny and nobody really enjoys having two sets of data sources to work with - several have tried and failed to gain market share; not because GS are awesome, but because they were first.

 

I don't think GS is a particularly well run company - their attitude to customer service (in making changes, removing content, lack of consultation etc) is pretty dire, the website is not reliable (as I type the caches aren't displaying, and there was a period of outage yesterday when the maps were returning 500 server errors) and I don't feel warm and fuzzy about getting great value for the service I pay quite a lot of money for (remember the caches aren't part of this!), and having to rely on third party plugins like GME to provide what I would consider essential aspects is very poor - but on balance I wouldn't want them to fail.

 

Yet, still, part of me dreams of how a new team might do it better...

 

To stay on-topic: My caches in the tourist-rich areas of Devon are very popular in the Summer - ~250 finds a year, with several finds yesterday alone). Those further off the beaten track are pretty quiet though. Project-GC has stats on new caches published which shows a noticable drop-off in activity a the last couple of years

 

http://project-gc.com/Statistics/Overview