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Scouter/Scouting owned caches?


jwmoe1973

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As a long time Scouter, I'm troubled by the caches I find that are owned by Cub Scout Pack ###, or BSA Troop ####. We strive to teach these young lads the principles of our Outdoor Code and Leave No Trace.

 

Nearly every cache I've found that is somehow connected to a local Scouter, Pack, or Troop is abandoned or in a gross state of disrepair. This reflects poorly on us as geocachers and as Scouts and Scouters at the local level, very possibly hurting our reputations.

 

I haven't as of yet posted any NA or NM logs on certain local caches as the specific cache that initially prompted my concern I DNF'd. The cache itself may be fine, but the area was trash ridden and a poor reflection on us all.

 

I am in a unique position to try to reach these people as part of our District committee. I'll be bringing this issue up at our monthly Roundtable meetings/trainings and hope to get a couple other reputable veteran cacher/Scouters involved in an initiative to clean up abandoned Scouter owned caches.

 

So..., thoughts??

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The Volunteer Cache Reviewers would agree with your observations, unanimously.

 

"Scout caches" are disproportionately overrepresented in the "cache maintenance" cleanup issues that we address, through responding to "Needs Archived" logs or in periodic "maintenance sweeps" that some reviewers perform.

 

In addition, we see a disproportionate amount of new cache submissions from scouts where the cache cannot be published due to listing guideline violations. Part of what Scouting teaches is to "Be Prepared" by understanding and following the rules -- whether it's knowledge of first aid, or how to build a safe campfire, or how to hide a geocache. There is often a disconnect between the scout's desire to earn a merit badge and the need to understand the activity that is recognized by the awarding of the badge.

 

Forty years later, I clearly recall a lesson I learned from my own efforts to earn merit badges on my way to becoming an Eagle Scout. There was a required merit badge about a subject in which I had very little interest. I did the minimum amount of work possible, and set up my appointment with the merit badge counselor who would verify my completion of the requirements. He could tell that I was unprepared, and refused to certify me for the badge. He gave me some advice far more valuable than the little patch of cloth that I earned on my second attempt. "Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Come back and see me when you feel you have done your best to be prepared." I have never forgotten that advice, which has served me well in my career.

 

I appreciate the OP's efforts to work with Scouts and to address the maintenance messes left behind. But I would urge the OP to add a component to the geocaching merit badge counseling program: hiding a cache to earn the badge is the minimum amount possible. Hiding a GOOD cache, and MAINTAINING it after it's hidden, is "doing your best."

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I am in a unique position to try to reach these people as part of our District committee. I'll be bringing this issue up at our monthly Roundtable meetings/trainings and hope to get a couple other reputable veteran cacher/Scouters involved in an initiative to clean up abandoned Scouter owned caches.

 

Better still would be to reach clear up to the level of the BSA national organization, to try alter the badge requirements.

 

Hiding a cache is one of several options, it's not required - that's fine.

 

Monitoring the cache for 3 months is how the hide a cache requirement is written, but nothing about what happens after 3 months. So what happens is nothing. The scout simply abandons the project. This is hardly the boy's fault, no one has explained that they should not leave the cache behind as litter. The section on hiding a cache needs to include a plan for the end of the cache. Preferably, 3 months published, then the cache picked up and the listing archived.

 

I can tell you that in my review area for every published scout cache, there are probably 4 unpublished boxes, never picked up, just sitting where they were placed. Again, this is not the boy's fault. Some well meaning adult took them out to "the woods" to hide caches. Caches too close to existing caches, caches in places that require permits. That same adult is not willing to make the return drive to deal with the issues, and the boys cannot.

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I am in a unique position to try to reach these people as part of our District committee. I'll be bringing this issue up at our monthly Roundtable meetings/trainings and hope to get a couple other reputable veteran cacher/Scouters involved in an initiative to clean up abandoned Scouter owned caches.

 

Better still would be to reach clear up to the level of the BSA national organization, to try alter the badge requirements.

 

Hiding a cache is one of several options, it's not required - that's fine.

 

Monitoring the cache for 3 months is how the hide a cache requirement is written, but nothing about what happens after 3 months. So what happens is nothing. The scout simply abandons the project. This is hardly the boy's fault, no one has explained that they should not leave the cache behind as litter. The section on hiding a cache needs to include a plan for the end of the cache. Preferably, 3 months published, then the cache picked up and the listing archived.

 

I can tell you that in my review area for every published scout cache, there are probably 4 unpublished boxes, never picked up, just sitting where they were placed. Again, this is not the boy's fault. Some well meaning adult took them out to "the woods" to hide caches. Caches too close to existing caches, caches in places that require permits. That same adult is not willing to make the return drive to deal with the issues, and the boys cannot.

THIS! That would work well. Nobody get any award(s) until after the program is finished correctly. Right now in my area... we are clean of scouter's caches. My reviewer does an awesome job of archiving them.

 

I view scouter caches as vacation caches. No real maintenance plans in place.

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I agree, there is definitely an issue, not just with Scouts groups, but with any type of group hide or any cache in general placed by new cachers and then abandoned. These caches cause the bulk of the work for reviewers.

 

I agree with the suggestion that they should be archived and cleaned up after 3 months and that this should be part of the badge requirements. I don't place the children; I blame the adults in charge. It's really a gross way to behave.

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All true. Though I am a MB counselor for the Geocaching MB, what I've found locally isn't a result of individual Boy Scouts working on Merit Badges, but rather CUB SCOUT LEADERS (often Intro App users) placing cheap containers as a one off activity for the Cub Scout boys in a Pack and then disappearing from the hobby.

 

My son crossed over from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts several years ago now but I am still highly involved at the District level on the Cub side. This is where I intend to effect the greater change.

 

As the issue pertains to Boy Scout Merit Badges, counselors can neither add to or detract from the requirements. Sadly. I wholeheartedly agree that the MB requirements should change with added emphasis and requirements on long term maintenance and responsibility as COs. We can discuss this with Boy Scouts seeking to earn the badge but it is beyond our scope to make it a requirement.

 

The National Council down in Texas pays little regard to it's decisions about most things at the local level. Perhaps an initiative by geocaching Scouters to include long term maintenance requirements in the MB is in order. Looks like I have a place to start for the next Geocaching MB update...

 

Now, as a good Cub Scouter, it's time to "Do My Best" (the current Cub Scout Motto) to make some changes locally with Cub Scout leaders and caches.

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You're absolutely correct about the "Pack 123" and "Troop 456" caches. Just today alone, I dealt with two submissions from scout groups. For one, the coordinates were in China instead of Ohio. This is why a mandatory map check was built into the cache submission page, and that was still not enough to prevent a careless submission. For the other, the scout leader did not follow the geocaching permit policy for the local park district, which is easily found on their website. So, that was another twenty minutes I spent indoors instead of going out geocaching today. (Don't get me wrong, I love my volunteer work, but I'd expect more effort from Scout leaders who are also volunteering their time to something they love.)

 

If you have a platform for communicating to all scout leaders at your local level, urge them to find some geocaches first before placing any, to read the cache listing guidelines and the Help Center articles about owning a geocache, and to have a maintenance plan in place for any cache they choose to hide in the name of their Pack or Troop.

 

It is an undeniable fact that poor placements and unmaintained caches are giving Scout groups a bad name among geocachers across the USA. As an Eagle Scout, that makes me very sad.

 

THANK YOU for anything you might do to change this reputation. Change begins one person at a time, at the local level.

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Same issue here - if it's a Scout or Girl Guide group, the cache is going to be abandoned as soon as that year's group moves up to the next level (if not sooner). Placing a cache in the fall, taking care of it over winter and archiving it and picking it up in the spring doesn't seem like too much to ask of people who are supposed to be setting a responsible example for children.

 

Perhaps it is time to designate a reviewer or two specifically for Organization Caches. Anything that shows up in the submission queue with those keywords (scout, troop, pack, school, etc) gets forwarded to that reviewer. Or, better yet, Groundspeak could have a separate submission form for those groups which takes them through a much longer process and a series of slides that the leaders could use to show the kids how the process works.

Edited by 6NoisyHikers
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Perhaps it is time to designate a reviewer or two specifically for Organization Caches. Anything that shows up in the submission queue with those keywords (scout, troop, pack, school, etc) gets forwarded to that reviewer.

What purpose would be served by this suggestion? Is there a perception that reviewers are not handling these caches properly? Like Palmetto said, many Scout caches never get published.

 

Adding a special reviewer would in my opinion create delay and/or a higher likelihood of publishing caches in error.

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Perhaps it is time to designate a reviewer or two specifically for Organization Caches. Anything that shows up in the submission queue with those keywords (scout, troop, pack, school, etc) gets forwarded to that reviewer.

What purpose would be served by this suggestion?

 

It would give you an extra 20 minutes you could use to be out geocaching rather that reviewing caches from organizations that don't comply with the guidelines.

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MPH, Scouting as a whole has drastically changed from when we first got involved nine years ago. As a District volunteer, it is nearly impossible to get leaders to monthly Roundtable meetings and training sessions. E-mails and phone calls to them go unanswered. Simply reaching them to get them better trained and educated on anything of import is a struggle. So, my challenge has become one of How can I reach them to get them trained so they can, in turn, reach and properly train the youth?

 

Though I am a strong advocate for Scouting, I sadly agree with you in regards to "us" being amongst the worst group of geocachers on the planet. Hence my solicitation for your thoughts here, which are appreciated. I need to here the negative along with the positive to help make my point when I AM able to reach those in question.

 

The Merit Badge issue is one I take contention with. I opted to be a geaocaching MB counselor not just because I enjoy our hobby, but because I saw the effects Scouts have on it. The boys in my own Troop enjoy geocaching and we have set up temporary caches (simple waypoints with Scouting tasks assigned at each) for them to seek. Temporary being the operative word. We (there are only seven of us total) completely remove and police our activities afterword. Sadly, we are the exception.

 

In the process of counseling for the MB, I will have the boys help ME put out a planned cache for the requirement and follow and guide them as they help maintain it. As of yet, none has gotten to that point. Yes, I am breaking a cardinal rule of tweaking the requirements, but I can't and won't be party to my boys leaving geotrash unattended.

 

It's those Cub Scout leaders I am most concerned with... But I am working on that.

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THANK YOU for anything you might do to change this reputation. Change begins one person at a time, at the local level.

 

If it's such a widespread problem, maybe it's time for Groundspeak to step in.

 

Either to ban Scout caches or to send some sort of directive to the head of the organization to improve their habits. It's completely possible for Scouts to participate in geocaching without placing caches, if that's what it comes down to.

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I agree, there is definitely an issue, not just with Scouts groups, but with any type of group hide or any cache in general placed by new cachers and then abandoned. These caches cause the bulk of the work for reviewers.

 

I agree with the suggestion that they should be archived and cleaned up after 3 months and that this should be part of the badge requirements. I don't place the children; I blame the adults in charge. It's really a gross way to behave.

 

Likewise, there was a series of caches hidden nearby, by eighth grade students. Done as part of a science project. Each cache has an ecological agendum. Most had one find (on the teacher's cache) and one hide. Most have very bad coords. Many of the caches have been archived for no maintenance (including the teacher's). Sad that this was permitted. The kids are off in high school now, and don't care.

The irony is that they were hidden with the ecological agendum, and left out as garbage.

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THANK YOU for anything you might do to change this reputation. Change begins one person at a time, at the local level.

 

If it's such a widespread problem, maybe it's time for Groundspeak to step in.

 

Either to ban Scout caches or to send some sort of directive to the head of the organization to improve their habits. It's completely possible for Scouts to participate in geocaching without placing caches, if that's what it comes down to.

 

Agree. Wouldn't like to see an outright ban, but there should definitely be some greater degree of responsibility, and as Harry Dolphin points out, it needs to apply to school class projects also. Since there is not just one organization involved, the problem won't be resolved by dealing with just one organization. I hate to dump this on the reviewers, but maybe, as with suspected vacation caches, they should require a statement of an adequate maintenance plan before the cache is published.

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MPH, Scouting as a whole has drastically changed from when we first got involved nine years ago. As a District volunteer, it is nearly impossible to get leaders to monthly Roundtable meetings and training sessions. E-mails and phone calls to them go unanswered. Simply reaching them to get them better trained and educated on anything of import is a struggle. So, my challenge has become one of How can I reach them to get them trained so they can, in turn, reach and properly train the youth?

 

Though I am a strong advocate for Scouting, I sadly agree with you in regards to "us" being amongst the worst group of geocachers on the planet. Hence my solicitation for your thoughts here, which are appreciated. I need to here the negative along with the positive to help make my point when I AM able to reach those in question.

 

The Merit Badge issue is one I take contention with. I opted to be a geaocaching MB counselor not just because I enjoy our hobby, but because I saw the effects Scouts have on it. The boys in my own Troop enjoy geocaching and we have set up temporary caches (simple waypoints with Scouting tasks assigned at each) for them to seek. Temporary being the operative word. We (there are only seven of us total) completely remove and police our activities afterword. Sadly, we are the exception.

 

In the process of counseling for the MB, I will have the boys help ME put out a planned cache for the requirement and follow and guide them as they help maintain it. As of yet, none has gotten to that point. Yes, I am breaking a cardinal rule of tweaking the requirements, but I can't and won't be party to my boys leaving geotrash unattended.

 

It's those Cub Scout leaders I am most concerned with... But I am working on that.

I was a Scout myself and my son was a Scout also, so I understand Scouting in general. My opinion about geocaches placed by Scouts was formed from being a peer reviewer on another geocaching platform that catches quite a few rejects from this site. I am also a Waymarker, and recently there was a question posted in the forums about merit badges for Waymarking. I believe that all Scouts should be required to be able to use a GPS as well as a compass. The idea of just placing geocaches to earn a merit badge by a group of non-geocachers like a Scout leader that knows nothing about our hobby attempting to teach a group of Scouts is a poorly thought out idea. I would stick with the fundementals of using a compass or a GPS unit and forget about teaching them about geocaching unless they ask, and most Scout age teens are advanced enough to learn on their own. Our hobby is quite simple.

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Perhaps it is time to designate a reviewer or two specifically for Organization Caches. Anything that shows up in the submission queue with those keywords (scout, troop, pack, school, etc) gets forwarded to that reviewer.

What purpose would be served by this suggestion?

 

It would give you an extra 20 minutes you could use to be out geocaching rather that reviewing caches from organizations that don't comply with the guidelines.

It would take the specialized reviewer longer than it would have taken me in order to review the submission, and there would be a greater likelihood of missing a local review issue. In today's cache hidden by a scout group in a MetroPark, I knew immediately that there was an applicable land manager policy because I've been reviewing caches in that area since the policy was adopted. A specialized reviewer would need to take the time to research land management policies from scratch for every submission. The possibility exists that they would miss the fact that Memorial Park is part of the Jefferson County Park System and that Jefferson County has a permit process. Twenty minutes saved for me to do the review correctly versus thirty minutes for a specialized reviewer, because of the extra research work? I'm not seeing the logic. There is no specialized knowledge needed in order to tell a Scout Troop that there's something wrong with their cache submission. A traditional geocache hidden by a Scout is still just a traditional geocache -- not an earthcache.

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I hate to dump this on the reviewers, but maybe, as with suspected vacation caches, they should require a statement of an adequate maintenance plan before the cache is published.

If the guidelines were changed to require me to ask this, it would be the first guideline that was based on who the hider is, rather than on some objective fact relating to the cache (like the cache being 200 miles from the user's home coordinates). But assuming that happened, I would expect that the scout or scout leader would say "I live three miles from the cache and there will be no problem maintaining it" just like vacation cache hiders tell me that their Aunt Betty lives right near the cache they hid. You'd be amazed at how many Aunt Bettys magically appear when that question is asked. I wouldn't know when to say "no, I don't believe you" when a scout or scout leader says "I'll do the maintenance."

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Perhaps it is time to designate a reviewer or two specifically for Organization Caches. Anything that shows up in the submission queue with those keywords (scout, troop, pack, school, etc) gets forwarded to that reviewer.

What purpose would be served by this suggestion?

 

It would give you an extra 20 minutes you could use to be out geocaching rather that reviewing caches from organizations that don't comply with the guidelines.

 

But take local reviewer knowledge of landowner policies out of the process, likely creating even more problems.

This is not a Groundspeak problem, this is a Scouting problem and should be addressed by changes in their policies.

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Scout / Scouter and MBC for the badge at this end:

 

In my experience many of the negatives are true.

 

I discourage all Scouts from the hiding of a cache ... nothing but downstream headaches. (What does hiding a cache really add to the youth experience)

 

IMHO: National ought to eliminate the hiding of a cache as an option.

 

In my instance I would drop the Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived notes much more quickly on a Scout related cache. After I have sent a note to "The Owner Of Record" expressing my extreme displeasure over the negative example they have set forth. I give them a couple of weeks to square things up then drop the notes three days apart.

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I was a Scout myself and my son was a Scout also, so I understand Scouting in general. My opinion about geocaches placed by Scouts was formed from being a peer reviewer on another geocaching platform that catches quite a few rejects from this site. I am also a Waymarker, and recently there was a question posted in the forums about merit badges for Waymarking. I believe that all Scouts should be required to be able to use a GPS as well as a compass. The idea of just placing geocaches to earn a merit badge by a group of non-geocachers like a Scout leader that knows nothing about our hobby attempting to teach a group of Scouts is a poorly thought out idea. I would stick with the fundementals of using a compass or a GPS unit and forget about teaching them about geocaching unless they ask, and most Scout age teens are advanced enough to learn on their own. Our hobby is quite simple.

 

Agreed. On my Troop's last camping trip, we spent a couple months teaching and reminding them of the basics for survival in the wilderness. Compass and map work was primary. Turned out this trip was a perfect example of our posts here. The Scoutmaster and I set up several hides as temporary waypoint caches. The first was a multi stage first aid test. They made the finds just fine and fumbled through the furst aid challenge enough to satisfy my requirements. The other seven were put out as incentives for meeting certain goals. Hand warmers in one, matches in another, etc. Basic items that they may have forgotten or run out of but had proven knowledge of use.

 

We sent them on their way with the GPS (all points within 472 ft of camp site). They drained the batteries after 1/2 mile of ignoring the nearest coords and nearly got themselves lost. Common sense and basic orienteering knowledge got them back just fine. Personally, with a military background, I quite prefer the comforting knowledge of how to use a compass when satelite coverage and batteries fail. Tech is great, but fallible.

 

We did wait until several of the boys expressed an interest in caching to bring in the GPS work and start explaining it to them. Like I've expressed though, we are fortunate that at least our small Troop of boys has shown the initiative and responsibility to enjoy the hobby as it should be. I did finally set up an account here for them, but I manage it and they won't be putting out any hides of their own under it.

 

When the GC merit badge was first introduced, I had my misgivings, and still do. My choice to be a MB counselor for it was to try to circumvent the problems I already saw arising from Scout and Scout leader placed caches locally. I hope there will never be a Waymarking MB. I just can't see how it would be a benefit.

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Geocaching merit badge is just a bad idea. I remember orienteering merit badge took a little bit of work, but this sounds rather simple, closer to basketry. I'll still bet that the scout caches overall are probably maintained a little better than kids caches overall, but they are still hidden by kids.

 

I, any many other current Scouters agree. Though many of us enjoy the hobby, the point of the MB is lost on me. The problem locally is that the caches placed by Scouts here are from Cub Scout leaders who join, place a cache (or series) and jumpship without archiving and policing their trash. Makes for a negative lasting impression of the hobby and Scouting.

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Scout / Scouter and MBC for the badge at this end:

 

In my experience many of the negatives are true.

 

I discourage all Scouts from the hiding of a cache ... nothing but downstream headaches. (What does hiding a cache really add to the youth experience)

 

IMHO: National ought to eliminate the hiding of a cache as an option.

 

In my instance I would drop the Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived notes much more quickly on a Scout related cache. After I have sent a note to "The Owner Of Record" expressing my extreme displeasure over the negative example they have set forth. I give them a couple of weeks to square things up then drop the notes three days apart.

 

We are in agreement. Particularly on the opinion of National removing the requirement to hide a cache.

 

You already know this, but here is a link for the benefit of others: BSA GC MB

 

Of particular note as it pertains to this thread:

 

8. Do ONE of the following:

C. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guidelines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet. Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months. After setting up the geocache, with your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

D. Explain what Cache In Trash Out (CITO) means, and describe how you have practiced CITO at public geocaches or at a CITO event. Then, either create CITO containers to leave at public caches, or host a CITO event for your unit or for the public.

Plan a geohunt for a youth group such as your troop or a neighboring pack, at school, or your place of worship. Choose a theme, set up a course with at least four waypoints, teach the players how to use a GPS unit, and play the game. Tell your counselor about your experience, and share the materials you used and developed for this event.

 

I think 8c needs to be removed as well. Place more emphasis on 8d with events coordinated with a veteran cacher through their account. This could entail a sort of mentorship between the Scouts and local geocachers. Not to mention the added benefits of gaining service hours and boosting the image of both geocaching and Scouting in the community.

Edited by jwmoe1973
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Seems as if we are all of the same general opinion on the forums for once. I've been mulling this issue over for some time now. Like humboldt flier, I am much more critical of Scout/Scouter placed caches than I am of others. I may take his lead and start the process of trying to directly contact the COs of troubled caches and then start the NM/NA process on them. Seems harsh, but reputations are at stake and trash caches and absent COs are of no benefit to anyone.

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Wow!! I need to take some time and read all the responses to this thread. At a glance, it apepars that a lot of opinions have changed since my 2011 threadon the subject!

 

I have been keeping a bookmark list for some time now of our local Scout caches, and find a mixed bag, depending mostly on who is in charge. But I started the list in the first place for the same reasons stated in the OP.

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Scouting seems to be more popular in the US than elsewhere, but I've seen poorly maintained scout caches in Europe as well. In Denmark we found roughly 10 of them, and all were in bad shape or hidden at rather interesting places, usually involving a scouting camp or lots of garbage. At a certain time, once we figured out that spejder means scouting we just knew that one cache on our route would be a poor one. Never went for a newly published one, thus no idea if the coords were ok initially.

 

Fortunately, we only ran into one cache placed by a group of school kids and their teacher and the teacher promised to not do this again after talking to her and trying to help her fix the cache :). Apart from being about 10km off on the North coords (not a simple number typo) and a few on the East (we still found it, mind!) it was just a plastic sweets tube with a tattered scrap of paper and a penny thrown into a decorative vase on a flower bed, filled with water :angry:

Edited by terratin
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In my neck of the woods which is national forest 90+ minutes from metro Phoenix, scout caches are simply a subgroup of vacation caches that get planted on a whim with inadequate containers, are poorly maintained and eventually removed. I support the comments about asking BSA to change the particular requirement. However I still see the larger problem of allowing inexperienced cachers to plant Caches that are inappropriate for various reasons. I am one of the people who advocates a minimum find count of 50-100 before placing a cache. This suggestion has been discussed extensively in other forums. Bottom line is, good hides by inexperienced cachers are the exception to the rule ( and yes I count several of my first hides in this category). While it is appropriate to ask BSA to change the merit badge, it is also appropriate to assign some responsibility to Groundspeak for having placement guidelines which are little more than words on a page to scroll through with no expectation of following. Scouting leaders are required to complete training before leading scout groups. Perhaps something akin to a mandatory training module for would be cache owners. At the very least make them watch that video on the web page first.

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Scouting seems to be more popular in the US than elsewhere, but I've seen poorly maintained scout caches in Europe as well.

 

I've encountered only 2 scouting caches so far and I've seen caches that were much poorer. The caches have been hidden however by a group leader and not the kids.

 

I do not think that there exists something like a merit badge for geocaching in Austria however. Does it exist in Denmark or some other European country (UK maybe?) I think that the merit badge system causes the problem. Couldn't they use caches not listed at gc.com for these badges? (Might be a naive question as I have no idea about the structure of scouting in the US and the merit badge system).

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Perhaps it is time to designate a reviewer or two specifically for Organization Caches. Anything that shows up in the submission queue with those keywords (scout, troop, pack, school, etc) gets forwarded to that reviewer.

What purpose would be served by this suggestion? Is there a perception that reviewers are not handling these caches properly? Like Palmetto said, many Scout caches never get published.

 

Adding a special reviewer would in my opinion create delay and/or a higher likelihood of publishing caches in error.

 

The word I used was designate, not replace.

 

Perhaps it would be better for Groundspeak to hire a liaison, a Lackey who would be the contact point for youth organizations wanting to learn about and participate in geocaching. Someone who would build educational presentations and packages specifically for scout leaders/teachers/youth mentors/etc. That Lackey would go to the Scouting head office and help them rework the merit badge requirements, but he/she might also make connections with other groups (like Boys and Girls Club or the YMCA) to promote caching in a healthy, responsible way - before these groups try to figure it out poorly on their own.

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Perhaps it is time to designate a reviewer or two specifically for Organization Caches. Anything that shows up in the submission queue with those keywords (scout, troop, pack, school, etc) gets forwarded to that reviewer.

What purpose would be served by this suggestion? Is there a perception that reviewers are not handling these caches properly? Like Palmetto said, many Scout caches never get published.

 

Adding a special reviewer would in my opinion create delay and/or a higher likelihood of publishing caches in error.

 

The word I used was designate, not replace.

 

Perhaps it would be better for Groundspeak to hire a liaison, a Lackey who would be the contact point for youth organizations wanting to learn about and participate in geocaching. Someone who would build educational presentations and packages specifically for scout leaders/teachers/youth mentors/etc. That Lackey would go to the Scouting head office and help them rework the merit badge requirements, but he/she might also make connections with other groups (like Boys and Girls Club or the YMCA) to promote caching in a healthy, responsible way - before these groups try to figure it out poorly on their own.

 

Having a "Liaison Lackey" might be a good start.

 

In my experience the Reviewers have more than enough on their plates and dumping more on them might cause them to bolt.

 

IMHO there will always be the problem of well intentioned folks forgetting their obligations to the game.

 

****** Perhaps Lab caches might be away to introduce sub segments (youth groups) to the hobby. Having an introduction to the hobby with a classification of caches which would not gum up the system might be a worthwhile consideration. During this years visit to block party I saw the value in Lab Caches and their temporary nature.

 

TONGUE IN CHEEK:

 

Here is the game, set it up, play it, pick up your trash, go home mull it over, if you can be serious about your obligations come on and jump in the deep end of the pool.

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I wonder if it might be appropriate for Groundspeak to take the lead on the "Scouting Cache" issue.

 

There might be the appearance more weight if it came from "The Lilly-Pad"

 

"Just sayin"

Really? It's in Groundspeaks interests to ensure a continuous influx of new geocachers. I don't think they would want to make it any harder for scout troops to set up caches or to try to dictate to scouting what the requirements should be for a merit badge. Any change needs to come from withing scouting themselves.

 

If there is a problem that's in Groundspeak's court its the more generic problem of abandoned caches. Though most cachers find it acceptable to DNF a few caches because they are missing, or find a few containers that have not fared well over time and are not being maintained - others have higher expectations. Eventually this leads to one of two responses - leave a throwdown or give up on caching because there are too many disappointments.

 

Of course Groundspeak's (and many forum members) know that the preferred action is to report first that the cache needs maintenance and then escalate this to a needs archive if the cache owner is unable to respond. If people followed the procedures for these caches then we would not have to vilify scouts, intro app users, or any other group. We would just recognize that some people may hide caches with the best of intentions to maintain the cache but that for what ever reason are unable to do so. When a cache needs maintenance report it. If the maintenance isn't done get it archived. Once a cache is archive (and is still not being maintained) it is abandoned. Feel free to "do a good deed" and remove the trash.

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>snipped<

 

Of particular note as it pertains to this thread:

 

8. Do ONE of the following:

C. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guidelines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet.

 

Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months.

 

After setting up the geocache, with your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

 

Really does need rethinking/rewriting.

 

The scout is personally responsible for the first three months...

WHO is responsible for the second three months???

 

And, they only need to monitor the logs for the first month.

 

IF they set a cache, I think they should be responsible for it for the three months minimum required by Groundspeak, the cache should then be Archived and removed, THEN share with your counselor and get your Merit Badge (If you've done things correctly! :) ).

Link to comment

>snipped<

 

Of particular note as it pertains to this thread:

 

8. Do ONE of the following:

C. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guidelines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet.

 

Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months.

 

After setting up the geocache, with your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

 

Really does need rethinking/rewriting.

 

The scout is personally responsible for the first three months...

WHO is responsible for the second three months???

 

And, they only need to monitor the logs for the first month.

 

IF they set a cache, I think they should be responsible for it for the three months minimum required by Groundspeak, the cache should then be Archived and removed, THEN share with your counselor and get your Merit Badge (If you've done things correctly! :) ).

 

As a MB counselor, I wish I had the option of requiring the boy to show me physical evidence that the cache has been removed along with a printed screenshot of the archive post. Alas, BSA stipulates that we as merit badge counselors cannot add to or subtract from the requirements. As a geocacher though, I can highly encourage the boys to opt for option 8d and help organize a CITO event. IMO, that option is much more beneficial to everyone involved and still helps said boy earn the badge.

 

I guess I needed to go back and read the cache placement guidelines again as I thought the "long term" issue was meant as years, not months. Wow, BSA took that rather literally... :(

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Groundspeak should work with scouting organizations to prohibit requiring to place caches for badges. (It's exactly like requiring to place a cache to qualify a challenge cache, which is no longer allowed.) A Scout is trustworthy? No. Not in Geocaching community.

 

Agreed. As an Assistant Scoutmaster and a Geocaching Merit Badge counselor, I can make a small difference on that end. The challenge is reaching other Scout leaders who happen to think placing a one time cache and promptly leaving the hobby is a fun activity for the younger boys. It does NOT teach them responsibility, goes against everything we should be teaching them, degrades the hobby for the rest of us, and ultimately leaves their cache behind as trash.

 

It's the latter that I hope to make a local impact on.

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>snipped<

 

Of particular note as it pertains to this thread:

 

8. Do ONE of the following:

C. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guidelines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet.

 

Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months.

 

After setting up the geocache, with your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

 

Really does need rethinking/rewriting.

 

The scout is personally responsible for the first three months...

WHO is responsible for the second three months???

 

And, they only need to monitor the logs for the first month.

 

IF they set a cache, I think they should be responsible for it for the three months minimum required by Groundspeak, the cache should then be Archived and removed, THEN share with your counselor and get your Merit Badge (If you've done things correctly! :) ).

 

As a MB counselor, I wish I had the option of requiring the boy to show me physical evidence that the cache has been removed along with a printed screenshot of the archive post. Alas, BSA stipulates that we as merit badge counselors cannot add to or subtract from the requirements. As a geocacher though, I can highly encourage the boys to opt for option 8d and help organize a CITO event. IMO, that option is much more beneficial to everyone involved and still helps said boy earn the badge.

 

I guess I needed to go back and read the cache placement guidelines again as I thought the "long term" issue was meant as years, not months. Wow, BSA took that rather literally... :(

 

So what are the requirements for the badge?

 

It sounds to me like it should be a 3 month process to get the badge, go through the process of putting it out, recieve logs, then bring back in.

 

Any scout who doesn't follow through on the whole process is breaking their promise by breaking the scout law and as such should not be eligible to receive the badge.

Link to comment

>snipped<

 

Of particular note as it pertains to this thread:

 

8. Do ONE of the following:

C. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guidelines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet.

 

Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months.

 

After setting up the geocache, with your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

 

Really does need rethinking/rewriting.

 

The scout is personally responsible for the first three months...

WHO is responsible for the second three months???

 

And, they only need to monitor the logs for the first month.

 

IF they set a cache, I think they should be responsible for it for the three months minimum required by Groundspeak, the cache should then be Archived and removed, THEN share with your counselor and get your Merit Badge (If you've done things correctly! :) ).

 

As a MB counselor, I wish I had the option of requiring the boy to show me physical evidence that the cache has been removed along with a printed screenshot of the archive post. Alas, BSA stipulates that we as merit badge counselors cannot add to or subtract from the requirements. As a geocacher though, I can highly encourage the boys to opt for option 8d and help organize a CITO event. IMO, that option is much more beneficial to everyone involved and still helps said boy earn the badge.

 

I guess I needed to go back and read the cache placement guidelines again as I thought the "long term" issue was meant as years, not months. Wow, BSA took that rather literally... :(

 

So what are the requirements for the badge?

 

It sounds to me like it should be a 3 month process to get the badge, go through the process of putting it out, recieve logs, then bring back in.

 

Any scout who doesn't follow through on the whole process is breaking their promise by breaking the scout law and as such should not be eligible to receive the badge.

 

Tassie Boy, agreed once again. A link to the requirements is in post #25, and yes, if the option to place a cache is chosen, it should be at least a three month process. Many of us really wish we had more impact on the decisions National Council makes regarding new merit badges, MB updates, and many other policies. Those sitting far from the local impact of the choices they make for us do not see the negative impact they make at the local level.

 

The question then becomes "How can we make a positive difference while operating within BSA guidelines?" Most times the answer is simple enough. Encourage geo MB candidates to (somewhat) forego the MB pamphlet/book and follow the actual guidelines at GC.com (which Nt'l obviously didn't research).

 

The problem of one off activity caches by adult Cub Scout leaders, school classroom teachers, youth groups, et al. is another extension of the problem. I can only hope to make an impact with the Cub Scout folks in my District as a District Committee member...

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How about giving the scout caches an unique icon, and having them auto archived after 3 months? If the litter is not cleaned up within 30 days of archival, the badge gets revoked. If they want to hide something longer term it should not be for the badge.

 

These images should not be associated with littering.

 

I'd be all for Scout caches having a unique icon. Let's broaden the inclusive rights with it. It kinda boarders on the intro app spectrum of new cachers finding though. Now my mind is spinning several ideas and thoughts around... Good intentioned teachers, Cub Scout leaders, Sunday school teachers, youth group leaders hear about geocaching, like the idea, incorporate it into a lesson, place a cache, kids age up to another group, cache is left and forgotten.

 

First, if there were a new icon type for what I'll think of as "institutional" cache hides (those one time activities by a class, Den, Youth group, etc.), how would the TYPE be distinguished on the map?

 

Second, I'm starting to lean towards the whole mind set of required minimum finds before being allowed to hide. I'm starting to see how it could possibly prevent some of the one time, hide and forget type caches.

 

Third, I would love to see the requirements on the BSA side of the problem be researched MUCH more in depth by National Council down in TX, the MB requirements tougher, more emphasis on CITO and less on placing a hide.

 

Fourth, I started this thread because, to be honest, I'm rather embarrassed by the impression left by the local Scout themed caches near me. More than embarrassed really, near angered and definitely ashamed. I've spent nine years teaching boys to respect their environment. To see other leaders do what amounts to throwing trash out for others to find and police upsets me.

 

Sorry folks, you've all been agreeable and helpful. Any further suggestions for cleaning up this problem at the local level are appreciated.

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I'm involved with Pathfinders, which is similar to Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, only we're co-ed. We teach "honors", where the kids can earn "patches".

 

I've taught the Geocaching honor several times, and even though placing geocaches is an option, I've never used it. I don't think it's a good idea. The few times that I've had to place caches for the honor (to make sure there was a geocache to find near the class), I've placed the cache myself and do the maintenance myself.

 

I can't understand why anyone would teach a class on a subject that they don't know.

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I'm involved with Pathfinders, which is similar to Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, only we're co-ed. We teach "honors", where the kids can earn "patches".

 

I've taught the Geocaching honor several times, and even though placing geocaches is an option, I've never used it. I don't think it's a good idea. The few times that I've had to place caches for the honor (to make sure there was a geocache to find near the class), I've placed the cache myself and do the maintenance myself.

 

I can't understand why anyone would teach a class on a subject that they don't know.

 

Because with Scouts (not so much cubs) if they are going for a badge it Is up to the scout to find out about rules, guidelines etc as a part of getting the badge.

 

Sadly, here in Australia and I suspect America would be worse, the onus has been taken off the scout and many leaders simply walk them through the badgework with a minimum of effort on both sides rather than actually challenging the scout.

 

*** Just had a look at the website that lists all of the American badges and it appears to me that it is simply about churning out badges. There is a lot that are extremely specific and many that seem to overlap with others. This sort of attitude is always going to cause issues and to be honest, short of an award scheme overhaul your best hope is that the badge is removed from the scheme. ***

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I'm involved with Pathfinders, which is similar to Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, only we're co-ed. We teach "honors", where the kids can earn "patches".

 

I've taught the Geocaching honor several times, and even though placing geocaches is an option, I've never used it. I don't think it's a good idea. The few times that I've had to place caches for the honor (to make sure there was a geocache to find near the class), I've placed the cache myself and do the maintenance myself.

 

I can't understand why anyone would teach a class on a subject that they don't know.

 

Because with Scouts (not so much cubs) if they are going for a badge it Is up to the scout to find out about rules, guidelines etc as a part of getting the badge.

 

Sadly, here in Australia and I suspect America would be worse, the onus has been taken off the scout and many leaders simply walk them through the badgework with a minimum of effort on both sides rather than actually challenging the scout.

 

*** Just had a look at the website that lists all of the American badges and it appears to me that it is simply about churning out badges. There is a lot that are extremely specific and many that seem to overlap with others. This sort of attitude is always going to cause issues and to be honest, short of an award scheme overhaul your best hope is that the badge is removed from the scheme. ***

Ah, I see. I was in Bluebirds when I was little, but it's been a long time and I never went into the Girlscouts. In Pathfinders, the honor is taught by a teacher. It can be quite hard, or quite easy - depending on how the honor is written, and how the teacher teaches it.

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Anyone else have examples of well-maintained Scouting caches?

 

They're all archived now, but group hidden by a Miami FL troop did fine for a while. The Scout leader emailed me first and asked some questions. I suggested that he help the boys hide caches that they could maintain themselves. Stuff in the school, home, mall triangle. Advised about doing urban micros (not too close to school.)

 

This worked great for a time. Eventually, being kids, they lost interest and I ended up archiving them. Bt they had a decent run with cache owner maintenance.

 

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, it's the adults who take scouts somewhere they can't get to themselves (the woods!0 and have them hide there.

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I've found a number of good ones, but in most cases they were owned by a Geocacher who is also active in scouts/guides. One example GC2Y9BC Peacock's Centenary Box.

 

I have found the same with hides by a school class. Those where the teacher is an active geocacher get maintained. Those where the teacher isn't an active geocacher (but did a hide with the class as it sounded like a good idea) tend to lack maintenance.

 

So it's not just the young people who lose interest.

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