Cheating on puzzles?

[+Roman!]

Will you log a puzzle you never solved or do you consider that cheating?

 

Me, absolutely, I'll log a puzzle any way I can solved or not.

[+Pork King]

If I can sign the log, I'll log it as found. Doesn't matter how I got to it!

[+Touchstone]

Isn't considered "working smarter" to have someone else solve Puzzle so that you can Find/Log it Kind of like having a really tall friend or relative to reach those pesky hides in high places. Sort of a TOTT.

[+T.D.M.22]

Hey, if you can find a puzzle cache without solving it, then go ahead. I've been with someone who found a puzzle cache, so I signed and logged it. I've also had someone do it on one of my caches-he made a lucky guess. Actually I think most of my puzzles have been solved by less than half those who found it.

 

Plus Groundspeak's position-all that's required(unless it's a challenge) is a signature in a logbook.

Edited June 15, 2014 by T.D.M.22

[+lamoracke]

I prefer to solve puzzles, failing that, I wish to at least know how to solve it if not me, but yeah, I would have no problem logging a puzzle without solving it. Same with a Wherigo final, same with a multi, whatever. Prefer doing them myself but sometimes, things happen.

[+niraD]

I usually solve puzzles myself before I find and log them.

 

A few times, I have found puzzle caches that someone else has solved. Before I logged them online, I solved the puzzles on my own.

 

Once, I solved part of a puzzle, and then brute-forced the rest of the coordinates. After I found the cache, I used the solution coordinates to figure out the solution to the rest of the puzzle. Then I logged it online.

 

A few times, I have found puzzle caches that were solved as part of a group effort, as part of Venona's annual ACTIVITIES. But those puzzles are intended to be solved by a group collaborating on the solution via online forums.

[+narcissa]

I like to contribute to the puzzles I find, or at least give them a good shot. Occasionally I solve one by brute force or find one by accident. Sometimes I get a hint from the owner, or another cacher. I don't believe that "cheating" is really relevant in geocaching.

[+Roman!]

Hmmm, surprised I agree with everyone, I actually cache with someone that is a puzzle guru and for the most part just tag along or bribe him for coordinates (I consider this being resourceful) but his girlfriend won't log the cache unless she solves it so we were discussing this topic.

 

Also not long ago a duino joke TB/cache was put out as a puzzle but the person who programmed the duino for the CO took some other cachers there without doing the duino and the CO posted a few nasty comments. Soon after I got the coordinates from a friend and also found it without doing it "the way the CO intended."

 

The next day the puzzle was changed from an unknown to a traditional (not sure how) and renamed to something meaning poo.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Roman!

[etarace]

I have logged two puzzles so far, and for one I know I didn't do it the way the CO "wanted" me to do it. However, I did put a lot of work into it. The first part of the puzzle was the number "X" on plaque "A" ... the problem is, there were two different plaques within 15 feet of each other, listing different numbers for X. So, I made an educated guess since it could really only be one of two numbers. The next part was a phone number in a different location. The coordinates for the "phone number" plaque were listed incorrectly in the waypoint portion, putting you on the wrong side of the river. I searched all over at those coordinates. I investigated anything I could find online that mentioned this "buried stream" and went to one of the places that the puzzle/multi did NOT list (however I assumed that was where I was supposed to go for the phone number). Eventually I used Google street view to find the plaque with the phone number after obtaining the correct coordinates. I got the final that afternoon.

This was over the course of many months and several visits to different places that I may or may not have needed to have gone for the puzzle. I researched a lot of it, and I learned a lot, and I found it all really interesting.

I technically "cheated" on parts of it, but I enjoyed the interesting history that I learned and was happy to log my find.

Had I simply obtained the location of the final (which was a magnetic key holder on a guard rail) it would have been so lame, and I would not have done that.

 

There is another pvc pipe "monkey puzzle" near me. If I can get my husband to come with me and if he solves it, I will absolutely log that as a find. I spent hours with dogs going insane across the street on that one already.

[+Roman!]

I like to contribute to the puzzles I find, or at least give them a good shot. Occasionally I solve one by brute force or find one by accident. Sometimes I get a hint from the owner, or another cacher. I don't believe that "cheating" is really relevant in geocaching.

 

I have a rule of 5 minutes, if I can't solve or know how to solve it within 5 minutes I'll leave it or get the coordinates by other means.

 

Here's another question, if you are the CO of a puzzle and one cacher gives another cacher the coordinates are you going to get upset or worse yet, call out the other cachers?

[+Roman!]

I have logged two puzzles so far, and for one I know I didn't do it the way the CO "wanted" me to do it. However, I did put a lot of work into it. The first part of the puzzle was the number "X" on plaque "A" ... the problem is, there were two different plaques within 15 feet of each other, listing different numbers for X. So, I made an educated guess since it could really only be one of two numbers. The next part was a phone number in a different location. The coordinates for the "phone number" plaque were listed incorrectly in the waypoint portion, putting you on the wrong side of the river. I searched all over at those coordinates. I investigated anything I could find online that mentioned this "buried stream" and went to one of the places that the puzzle/multi did NOT list (however I assumed that was where I was supposed to go for the phone number). Eventually I used Google street view to find the plaque with the phone number after obtaining the correct coordinates. I got the final that afternoon.

This was over the course of many months and several visits to different places that I may or may not have needed to have gone for the puzzle. I researched a lot of it, and I learned a lot, and I found it all really interesting.

I technically "cheated" on parts of it, but I enjoyed the interesting history that I learned and was happy to log my find.

Had I simply obtained the location of the final (which was a magnetic key holder on a guard rail) it would have been so lame, and I would not have done that.

 

There is another pvc pipe "monkey puzzle" near me. If I can get my husband to come with me and if he solves it, I will absolutely log that as a find. I spent hours with dogs going insane across the street on that one already.

 

The first sounds more like a multi (I solve those online if I can) and the other is a field puzzle so if it's a group find usually only one person really solves it, I am more talking about puzzles you do at home to get the final coordinates.

[etarace]

 

The first sounds more like a multi (I solve those online if I can) and the other is a field puzzle so if it's a group find usually only one person really solves it, I am more talking about puzzles you do at home to get the final coordinates.

Ohhhh.... I've looked at a couple of those and they made my head want to explode so I have never done one yet.

[+terratin]

I prefer to solve puzzles as it's also a lot of fun, but there have been instances where we simply found caches we couldn't solve. One was in a corner of a park I wanted to have a look at, and suddenly saw the sun reflecting on a bison. Took a while to figure out which cache that was. Another time Mr. Terratin was scouting for a hiding place - and found a cache there. Oh, and in really cache saturated places you can also solve mysteries by excluding areas with known caches and using all sorts of other info you can get your hands on. Works very well in Copenhagen for example

[+Touchstone]

Here's another question, if you are the CO of a puzzle and one cacher gives another cacher the coordinates are you going to get upset or worse yet, call out the other cachers?

 

Nope. Although I would be upset if coordinates were posted on the internet for all to see, or worked out on a wholesale sort of fashion by a group on one social media site that will remain unnamed.

 

However, my response would be to merely Archive my Listings rather than get in some tizzy over it, and "call" people out over it.

[+narcissa]

Here's another question, if you are the CO of a puzzle and one cacher gives another cacher the coordinates are you going to get upset or worse yet, call out the other cachers?

 

No, I wouldn't get upset. On my cache pages I explicitly encourage group finds, and I expect that some level of puzzle-final trading will go on as well.

 

I can't control other people, but I can control how I react to other people.

[+WarNinjas]

This is a very good question. I have done it both ways. I have gone with a group of friends and they had solved some puzzles and we found them while going out of town to a event. I logged those without even thinking of it being a problem. Then I went out with the same friends plus a few others and they talked about having to solve it before logging it. Some of those I have not logged yet.

 

I think if you stumble across them or brute force them then you definitely have earned the right to log them. You had to do some work to figure out where they were even if it was not the intended way.

 

With our puzzles we don't care find them however you want.

[+The_Incredibles_]

I generally stop short of asking for final coordinates outright. I also don't like doing a 'tag along' unless it's an easy puzzle I can solve right away at home after. I prefer to find puzzles on my own merit.

 

My favorite thing recently, is to find the puzzle some way other than actually solving it, but still without doing what I would consider 'cheating'. For instance, you can narrow down the area by looking at the caches people are finding before and after the puzzle, then go looking for an item that matches the hint. For a few puzzles recently, I did proximity circles with my phone to narrow things down, then solved the puzzle part-way, then made some educated guesses. For another one, I noticed an empty beach access in the same area as a new puzzle and went poking around. Sure enough, the puzzle was there. Lots of fun!

[+Roman!]

I generally stop short of asking for final coordinates outright. I also don't like doing a 'tag along' unless it's an easy puzzle I can solve right away at home after. I prefer to find puzzles on my own merit.

 

My favorite thing recently, is to find the puzzle some way other than actually solving it, but still without doing what I would consider 'cheating'. For instance, you can narrow down the area by looking at the caches people are finding before and after the puzzle, then go looking for an item that matches the hint. For a few puzzles recently, I did proximity circles with my phone to narrow things down, then solved the puzzle part-way, then made some educated guesses. For another one, I noticed an empty beach access in the same area as a new puzzle and went poking around. Sure enough, the puzzle was there. Lots of fun!

 

I have found many puzzles that way, also reading logs may help you find one. My puzzle master friend has a weakness, pins, so when I find a pin in a cache I'll trade for it and then bribe him with a handful of pins for a puzzle, I think I earned it.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Not just reading the logs, but looking at the exif data in the photos. I kind of consider that cheating, but when it's either that or spend hours Googling fungi, I think it's justified.

[team tisri]

Will you log a puzzle you never solved or do you consider that cheating?

 

Me, absolutely, I'll log a puzzle any way I can solved or not.

 

Me too, if I'm out with a friend and we pass a cache that they've solved and I haven't I have no qualms about logging the find as well. The whole point of going out with someone else is that the company combines with joining forces to find caches. It's really no different to logging a traditional cache if your buddy was the one who actually sighted it.

 

For those who consider it cheating, what if you solved the puzzle other than as intended by the owner? I remember I got FTF on a puzzle cache a while back - based on the formula used there were something like 140 possible hiding spots, but one key piece of the text ruled out something like 130 of them so it was pretty easy to just battleship the geochecker until I got the right one. Or how about people who just stumble upon a cache that turned out to be the final of a puzzle cache?

[+TopShelfRob]

I say why not cheat on all the puzzles you want, as long as you find them, who cares? What's the worst that can happen? The COs start archiving all their truly creative and ingenuous puzzles and eventually the space will open up for more LPCs to be placed. Then it will be that much easier to rack up the smileys.

[+Ma & Pa]

I have created a number of puzzles that I call Micro Logic (ML). They are micros and require a little logic to solve them. I usually put out 4 or 5 at a time in the same general area or on the same trail. I create them for those who like solving these kinds of puzzles and we have received a lot of positive feedback. However many do not solve them manually and many others get the cache without solving. I have no problems with any of that.

 

Here are some of the situations.

 

*Some solve manually

*Some enjoy the challenge of using PERL or PYTHON to solve them

*Some use EXCEL to get all the possible answers and then work it out

*Local groups get together every weekend to go caching, and they will sometimes include the ML caches. Only some of the group will have solved them.

*Some cachers know who the puzzle solvers are, and they contact them to go out together.

*There are local cachers who watch the caches and volunteer to go do maintenance if there is a problem, in exchange for the coords.

 

http://coord.info/GC41CRR

 

We have sometimes cheated by figuring out the location of puzzle caches based on empty spaces in a series of caches.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Ma & Pa

[+GeoTrekker26]

I like to contribute to the puzzles I find, or at least give them a good shot. Occasionally I solve one by brute force or find one by accident. Sometimes I get a hint from the owner, or another cacher. I don't believe that "cheating" is really relevant in geocaching.

 

I have a rule of 5 minutes, if I can't solve or know how to solve it within 5 minutes I'll leave it or get the coordinates by other means.

 

Here's another question, if you are the CO of a puzzle and one cacher gives another cacher the coordinates are you going to get upset or worse yet, call out the other cachers?

 

Hey, if I followed your rule, I'd never solve a puzzle cache!!

 

As far as I'm concerned all is fair with mystery caches. Find the cache any way you can including getting the numbers from a friend. Obviously that would include puzzles I might own.

[+Ma & Pa]

 

As far as I'm concerned all is fair with mystery caches. Find the cache any way you can including getting the numbers from a friend. Obviously that would include puzzles I might own.

 

I agree completely, even with my caches.

 

There is only one thing that bothers me with logs on my puzzles: I create my puzzles to give pleasure to those who solve it manually but I don't mind if it is solved with a program. However it ticks me off when a person who solves it with a program, belittles the puzzle and says that it was much too easy.

[cezanne]

 

Here's another question, if you are the CO of a puzzle and one cacher gives another cacher the coordinates are you going to get upset or worse yet, call out the other cachers?

 

If the two happen to visit a cache together and one has solved the puzzle and the other not, I'm not happy, but can understand what's going on. If someone gives away coordinates to my difficult caches it makes me angry and if this happens several times, my reaction will be archival. All my mystery caches have a homework part and a fieldwork part and those who only visit the final will neither see what I wanted to show them nor will they have anything interesting to report in their logs. The container in the end is the least important part of all my caches.

[+dprovan]

No, I don't consider it cheating, and if I sign the log, I claim the find. But I rarely sign the log until I've solved the puzzle.

[+TheWeatherWarrior]

Hmmm, surprised I agree with everyone

Quote of the decade!

[+funkymunkyzone]

Solve a puzzle by any means, intended, not intended, intuition, brute force, whatever - all good. But being handed the coordinates, or trading puzzle final coordinates - that's cheating, and worse, it's downright rude. I often wonder if people who think that's ok would also be the same ones who would copy the entire solution for a crossword puzzle, and pretend they solved it themselves.

Edited June 15, 2014 by funkymunkyzone

[+Roman!]

Solve a puzzle by any means, intended, not intended, intuition, brute force, whatever - all good. But being handed the coordinates, or trading puzzle final coordinates - that's cheating, and worse, it's downright rude. I often wonder if people who think that's ok would also be the same ones who would copy the entire solution for a crossword puzzle, and pretend they solved it themselves.

 

So what's the difference between being given the coordinates or being out with the person who solved the puzzle and finding it too? I'd bet that almost everyone has done this. Either way you contributed nothing.

 

At what point does a hint become cheating, wouldn't it be cheating getting any hint from anyone other than the CO.

 

Technically none of it is cheating as you have not broken any GS rules.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Roman!

[+funkymunkyzone]

Solve a puzzle by any means, intended, not intended, intuition, brute force, whatever - all good. But being handed the coordinates, or trading puzzle final coordinates - that's cheating, and worse, it's downright rude. I often wonder if people who think that's ok would also be the same ones who would copy the entire solution for a crossword puzzle, and pretend they solved it themselves.

 

So what's the difference between being given the coordinates or being out with the person who solved the puzzle and finding it too? I'd bet that almost everyone has done this. Either way you contributed nothing.

 

At what point does a hint become cheating, wouldn't it be cheating getting any hint from anyone other than the CO.

 

Technically none of it is cheating as you have not broken any GS rules.

 

So it's just name in logbook that counts?

 

Cool. I'm not going to bother climbing any more steep hills to find caches, I'll just get someone else to go and put my name in the logbook. No GS rules broken - my name is in the logbook..... Lame!

[+The_Incredibles_]

Solve a puzzle by any means, intended, not intended, intuition, brute force, whatever - all good. But being handed the coordinates, or trading puzzle final coordinates - that's cheating, and worse, it's downright rude. I often wonder if people who think that's ok would also be the same ones who would copy the entire solution for a crossword puzzle, and pretend they solved it themselves.

 

So what's the difference between being given the coordinates or being out with the person who solved the puzzle and finding it too? I'd bet that almost everyone has done this. Either way you contributed nothing.

 

At what point does a hint become cheating, wouldn't it be cheating getting any hint from anyone other than the CO.

 

Technically none of it is cheating as you have not broken any GS rules.

 

It's a slippery slope, that's for sure. There's the official Groundspeak definition of the rules and there's rules of etiquette, which vary depending on the person.

 

I think most people feel it's not as bad if you go with someone who solved the puzzle as opposed to simply having the coordinates emailed to you. It's more like a 'whoops, I just happened to be with so-and-so while they found this puzzle cache so I figured I may as well sign too' vs 'I have no interest at all in your puzzle and ran out of LPCs to find, so I just asked someone else for the final coordinates so I could delude myself into thinking it's just a traditional'

Edited June 15, 2014 by The_Incredibles_

[+funkymunkyzone]

I think most people feel it's not as bad if you go with someone who solved the puzzle as opposed to simply having the coordinates emailed to you. It's more like a 'whoops, I just happened to be with so-and-so while they found this puzzle cache so I figured I may as well sign too' vs 'I have no interest at all in your puzzle and ran out of LPCs to find, so I just asked someone else for the final coordinates so I could delude myself into thinking it's just a traditional'

 

I totally agree with this.

 

As the owner of quite a few puzzles, I am of the opinion (just my opinion of course), that if someone at GZ solved the puzzle (by whatever means, just not being handed the coords) then it's all good. I know some in that position - accompanying the puzzle solver to GZ - choose to wait until they have solved it themselves in order to log it online, and good for them.

 

We have some around here who straight up ask for puzzle coordinates or attempt to trade for them. We know who they are and we look at their puzzle stats and think "yeah, whatever". I don't get it myself, but then I guess there are some people out there who simply must find every cache, even the ones that are otherwise of no interest to them. Me, I reckon, if you don't like LPCs don't find them, if you don't like long hikes, don't find mountain top caches, and if you don't like puzzles, don't find them either.

Edited June 16, 2014 by funkymunkyzone

[+cerberus1]

I feel that heading out with another who solved the puzzle and signing the log with them is no different than if I access a "5" hide with rope and everyone below signs too ( if I bring the log down )

- Though they may simply be holding my coat or taking pics, they accompanied me.

 

Often (in this area) a tough puzzle may also have a higher terrain rating.

I can't solve the puzzles and he can't climb rope... teamwork.

[+Roman!]

Solve a puzzle by any means, intended, not intended, intuition, brute force, whatever - all good. But being handed the coordinates, or trading puzzle final coordinates - that's cheating, and worse, it's downright rude. I often wonder if people who think that's ok would also be the same ones who would copy the entire solution for a crossword puzzle, and pretend they solved it themselves.

 

So what's the difference between being given the coordinates or being out with the person who solved the puzzle and finding it too? I'd bet that almost everyone has done this. Either way you contributed nothing.

 

At what point does a hint become cheating, wouldn't it be cheating getting any hint from anyone other than the CO.

 

Technically none of it is cheating as you have not broken any GS rules.

 

It's a slippery slope, that's for sure. There's the official Groundspeak definition of the rules and there's rules of etiquette, which vary depending on the person.

 

I think most people feel it's not as bad if you go with someone who solved the puzzle as opposed to simply having the coordinates emailed to you. It's more like a 'whoops, I just happened to be with so-and-so while they found this puzzle cache so I figured I may as well sign too' vs 'I have no interest at all in your puzzle and ran out of LPCs to find, so I just asked someone else for the final coordinates so I could delude myself into thinking it's just a traditional'

 

I'm usually the beneficiary of caching with a puzzle solving master yet his girlfriend won't log the puzzles (she caches with us) until she solves them which by what you are saying should happen as being there or getting the coordinates emailed are basically the same thing, you did nothing.

 

As for getting the actual coordinates by email, I have a few times, not many, but in all cases I have given the puzzle my standard 5 minutes first.

 

If you believe you can cheat at puzzles then the line should be drawn at getting any hints/nudges from any other source than the CO, anything else is just trying to justify your own cheating.

 

A bit off topic, there's a T5 tree climb, your friend climbs the tree with you there, do you claim a smiley or climb the tree as well?

[+The_Incredibles_]

We have some around here who straight up ask for puzzle coordinates or attempt to trade for them. We know who they are and we look at their puzzle stats and think "yeah, whatever". I don't get it myself, but then I guess there are some people out there who simply must find every cache, even the ones that are otherwise of no interest to them. Me, I reckon, if you don't like LPCs don't find them, if you don't like long hikes, don't find mountain top caches, and if you don't like puzzles, don't find them either.

 

I don't get it either. We have people here who force themselves to find caches which they do not enjoy, just so they can clear an area. If you're that desperate, why not relocate to a new city? That's what I would do.

 

Roman! should be interested in this particular post as, quite coincidentally, I'm moving to his neck of the woods soon.

Edited June 16, 2014 by The_Incredibles_

[+Roman!]

We have some around here who straight up ask for puzzle coordinates or attempt to trade for them. We know who they are and we look at their puzzle stats and think "yeah, whatever". I don't get it myself, but then I guess there are some people out there who simply must find every cache, even the ones that are otherwise of no interest to them. Me, I reckon, if you don't like LPCs don't find them, if you don't like long hikes, don't find mountain top caches, and if you don't like puzzles, don't find them either.

 

I don't get it either. We have people here who force themselves to find caches which they do not enjoy, just so they can clear an area. If you're that desperate, why not relocate to a new city? That's what I would do.

 

Roman! should be interested in this particular post as, quite coincidentally, I'm moving to his neck of the woods soon.

 

Although I don't care about clearing an area I know some who do, it's what they enjoy. Personally I enjoy stats and I enjoy finding caches, I don't care for puzzles. When I find one by other any means than the CO intended I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just caching the way I enjoy.

 

What part of the lower mainland are you moving to?

Edited June 16, 2014 by Roman!

[+The_Incredibles_]

When I find one by other any means than the CO intended I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just caching the way I enjoy.

 

What part of the lower mainland are you moving to?

 

Burnaby. I actually totally understand what you're saying. Even if you're not intending to be rude, though, it can still hurt/annoy people.

[+funkymunkyzone]

When I find one by other any means than the CO intended I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just caching the way I enjoy.

Solving a puzzle by any means - intended, brute-force, intuition, whatever - no problem. But asking for, handing out, or trading puzzle final coords *is* rude and disrespectful to the cache owner.

[+Roman!]

When I find one by other any means than the CO intended I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just caching the way I enjoy.

 

What part of the lower mainland are you moving to?

 

Burnaby. I actually totally understand what you're saying. Even if you're not intending to be rude, though, it can still hurt/annoy people.

 

And that's what I don't understand, some of these people that get hurt won't climb the tree, caching in a group is cheating if any other member than you found the cache, asking for hints is cheating, unless you personally find any cache without any help other than the CO provided you are cheating so pretty much we all are.

 

These people getting upset about their puzzles are just moving the bar to justify their cheating but be able to criticize someone else.

 

But again, no one is cheating according to GS so why should anyone get upset, i find that silly.

 

Burnaby is a good central location, just be warned, in North Vancouver a P&G is usually 15-30 minutes and 100-300 meters of elevation gain.

[+Roman!]

When I find one by other any means than the CO intended I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just caching the way I enjoy.

Solving a puzzle by any means - intended, brute-force, intuition, whatever - no problem. But asking for, handing out, or trading puzzle final coords *is* rude and disrespectful to the cache owner.

 

Isn't being with the solver and logging it the same thing? I think so.

 

IMHO, the CO calling out a cacher or sending a nasty email is the person being rude.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Roman!

[+The_Incredibles_]

Burnaby is a good central location, just be warned, in North Vancouver a P&G is usually 15-30 minutes and 100-300 meters of elevation gain.

 

Warned? Heck that's why I'm moving there!

[+narcissa]

Solving a puzzle by any means - intended, brute-force, intuition, whatever - no problem. But asking for, handing out, or trading puzzle final coords *is* rude and disrespectful to the cache owner.

 

I think every cache owner has a responsibility to accept that once you put a cache out there, it takes on a life of its own and some people aren't going to find it the way you meant them to.

[+funkymunkyzone]

IMHO, the CO calling out a cacher or sending a nasty email is the person being rude.

Woah there Wilbur! Who said anything about nasty emails?

[+The_Incredibles_]

But again, no one is cheating according to GS so why should anyone get upset, i find that silly.

 

Groundspeak has no way of knowing whether or not someone has solved a puzzle, so, officially they allow you to log a find as long as your name is on the logbook. However, it doesn't mean the folks at HQ don't think you're cheating or that they don't see the value in people solving puzzles as intended.

 

I also don't think you should call a cache owner silly for getting upset at you. What's more important - a smilie or a cache owner's feelings? If a cache owner was upset at me for how I found their puzzle, I would delete my log in a heartbeat.

Edited June 16, 2014 by The_Incredibles_

[+funkymunkyzone]

Solving a puzzle by any means - intended, brute-force, intuition, whatever - no problem. But asking for, handing out, or trading puzzle final coords *is* rude and disrespectful to the cache owner.

 

I think every cache owner has a responsibility to accept that once you put a cache out there, it takes on a life of its own and some people aren't going to find it the way you meant them to.

 

I repeat:

 

Solving a puzzle by any means - intended, brute-force, intuition, whatever - no problem.

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

However, I firmly believe that most of those people who do ask for, or trade, puzzle final coordinates know they are being rude and disrespectful, and know it's cheating. I have never ever seen a log that says "I asked XXXXX for the final coordinates and they gave them to me. TFTC" or "I traded puzzle final coordinates with XXXX. They gave me the coords for this puzzle and I gave them the coordinates for GCXXXXX. TFTC".

 

Hey, if you do it and you think it's ok, then truthfully announce it in your logs. If you do it, but you're ashamed because you know it's wrong, then continue to hide behind some other nondescript log.

[+J Grouchy]

I look at it like logging one's own cache: lame, but nothing to get worked up about.

[+TheWeatherWarrior]

I'm all fine with people cheating on geocaches. It lets me know how the cheaters in life are. Cheating is lying and therefore likely that they lie and cheat on most things. At least with geocaching there isn't really any damage, except to their reputation.

[+Roman!]

I'm all fine with people cheating on geocaches. It lets me know how the cheaters in life are. Cheating is lying and therefore likely that they lie and cheat on most things. At least with geocaching there isn't really any damage, except to their reputation.

 

Since getting coordinates given to you is not cheating according to Groundspeak it then is a personal interpretation of what is and isn't cheating.

 

Unless a person finds a cache,any cache themselves with only info provided by the CO then they could be considered cheating by others, moving the line away from this to justify why it's ok not to climb the tree or to log a smiley even do your friend made the find or you used PAF is hypocritical then.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Roman!

[+funkymunkyzone]

Unless a person finds a cache,any cache themselves with only info provided by the CO then they could be considered cheating by others, moving the line away from this to justify why it's ok not to climb the tree or to log a smiley even do your friend made the find or you used PAF is hypocritical then.

The proof is in the pudding, or at least the logging. People who PAF generally admit it in their log, as do people who assisted with a tree climb but didn't climb themselves.

 

However...

 

I have never ever seen a log that says "I asked XXXXX for the final coordinates and they gave them to me. TFTC" or "I traded puzzle final coordinates with XXXX. They gave me the coords for this puzzle and I gave them the coordinates for GCXXXXX. TFTC".

[+Roman!]

Unless a person finds a cache,any cache themselves with only info provided by the CO then they could be considered cheating by others, moving the line away from this to justify why it's ok not to climb the tree or to log a smiley even do your friend made the find or you used PAF is hypocritical then.

The proof is in the pudding, or at least the logging. People who PAF generally admit it in their log, as do people who assisted with a tree climb but didn't climb themselves.

 

However...

 

I have never ever seen a log that says "I asked XXXXX for the final coordinates and they gave them to me. TFTC" or "I traded puzzle final coordinates with XXXX. They gave me the coords for this puzzle and I gave them the coordinates for GCXXXXX. TFTC".

 

I actually have posted that I couldn't solve the puzzle but a friend told me where it was and he got a nasty email from the CO which I found extremely rude. We have someone local does does some pretty sneaky traditionals and yes people do post they used PAF, admitting it doesn't change the fact you cheated then.

 

I do see lots of logs about being with someone who solved the puzzle, it's exactly the same thing. The only difference lots of people log puzzles this way so they have to justify it as being OK.

 

Unless you're a purist It's either all cheating or it's not as long as you don't break GS rules. Claiming otherwise is hypocrisy.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Roman!