Legal cache placement question for reviewers.

[+glenn37216]

I've been doing a ton of research to come up with a clever cache placement worthy of 5 stars . Upon my venture of looking at possible placement locations I've learned something startling.

 

Over half of my geocache finds are placed on city property without the proper permission. Daily submissions that are being approved seem to be placed illegally too.

 

According to a supervisor I spoke to that works out of the East Center Public Works Div of Nashville, because of city ordinances only Metro Parks are able to issue Permits for geocaches. I've also spoken to NES supervisors who have told me they will fine you up to $500.00 if you even touch a light pole skirt they own . But yet everyday I continue to search underthem for smileys. Even Metro Water has told me the magnetic cache hides in their curb drains are illegal and are not supposed to be there.

 

Both NES and Metro Public Works have said NOTHING is to be placed on or around CITY owned guardrails or under lightpole skirts because of legality issues. Your not even supposed to tape yardsale signs to Metro/NES poles. It's a 50.00 fine for the 1st offense.. 150.00 fine for the 2nd.

 

I guess my question for the reviewers is how are cache owners getting permission to place along highways , guardrails in water drains when its illegal to do so? Who are their contact references? Are some placements "assumed" that no contact or permission is needed because its city/public owned property?

Edited July 21, 2014 by glenn37216

[4wheelin_fool]

If it's on property accessible to the public, then permission is assumed to be adequate without any contact. If they have a geocache policy, then it needs to be followed. It sounds like they have a policy without telling anyone about it..

[+T.D.M.22]

There's two things happening here- one is that people may not ask permission. I know shocking

 

Another-related to the above- is what I've heard called the frisbee rule. That is if you can play frisbee(or soccer, or walk the dog, you get the idea) without having to ask permission, then there's no need to ask to go geocaching. This isn't an official rule, just something people go by. And I realize that you won't play frisbee in a storm drain, but again you get the idea.

 

Oh and another thought-the city can make all the rules and laws that they want, but it doesn't do any good if they don't enforce them(there's no reason they can't see all these "illegal" caches) or they don't tell the people who can enforce them(after all Groundspeak can't enforce rules if they don't know about them)

[Keystone]

You wanted a legal answer?

 

My seminal essay on permission is hereby incorporated into this post by reference as if fully set forth herein.

[+glenn37216]

Well I'm confused more than ever now. I'm still not sure how caches can be approved just by assuming one has permission to place a cache along a city highway and or on public right of way property.

 

The reason why I'm asking these questions is because I actually work for Public Works in Nashville. I've had extensive conversations with supervisors in the streets and roads division. They all have told me geocaching can land me a hefty fine if anything is stuck to or placed on city property without permission. This includes guardrails , off the city owned roadway , light pole skirts , water drains inlets , guide wire micro's etc. I guess I'll just stick to the hunting part of geocaching. But then again , they also told me just lifting up a light pole skirt can get you into trouble. Yikes ! Might as well stick to park hides. :/

[4wheelin_fool]

Well I'm confused more than ever now. I'm still not sure how caches can be approved just by assuming one has permission to place a cache along a city highway and or on public right of way property.

 

The reason why I'm asking these questions is because I actually work for Public Works in Nashville. I've had extensive conversations with supervisors in the streets and roads division. They all have told me geocaching can land me a hefty fine if anything is stuck to or placed on city property without permission. This includes guardrails , off the city owned roadway , light pole skirts , water drains inlets , guide wire micro's etc. I guess I'll just stick to the hunting part of geocaching. But then again , they also told me just lifting up a light pole skirt can get you into trouble. Yikes ! Might as well stick to park hides. :/

 

That's just dust in the wind unless someone gets charged, or they contact Groundspeak. You can also get a $50 fine for killing a praying mantis you know. They would have to first report a problem and remove it. Only after a warning, there could be a fine. I don't think this would occur unless there was a specific problem, or someone forced the issue by asking their supervisor..

[+frinklabs]

I guess my question for the reviewers is how are cache owners getting permission to place along highways , guardrails in water drains when its illegal to do so? Who are their contact references? Are some placements "assumed" that no contact or permission is needed because its city/public owned property?

 

In my area, anecdotally, I will have to go with the "assumed" part.

 

In Toronto, there's a bylaw against tree-climbing in city parks. There is a T5 cache nearby, in a city park, in a tree. I emailed the publishing reviewer to ask how/if the CO got permission (to verify whether or not I was subject to being cited), and their response was that I should contact the CO.

 

I suspect that the reviewers "assume" the CO has adequate permission because they checked a box in the listing submission form alleging this to be true.

 

Meanwhile, here are two possibly-relevant threads:

 

Cachers Who Commit Illegal Act to Find Cache

 

Cache breaks local by-law

[Keystone]

Well I'm confused more than ever now. I'm still not sure how caches can be approved just by assuming one has permission to place a cache along a city highway and or on public right of way property.

Caches are not "approved." If I was approving/certifying the caches that I publish, the following things would happen:

 

1. Publication time delays would increase greatly.

2. I'd want to see paperwork, and there would need to be a means for attaching PDF files and Word Documents to cache listings.

3. I'd want to be paid.

4. I'd approve far fewer cache submissions than I publish today. There are many caches that I disapprove of, but I publish them if they meet the listing guidelines.

 

In the meantime, this is a listing service and not a certifying agency. Every cache owner using the listing service checks the box to confirm that they have adequate permission.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Keystone

[+wmpastor]

You wanted a legal answer?

 

My seminal essay on permission is hereby incorporated into this post by reference as if fully set forth herein.

Excellent summary, & that locked 2006 thread is a fine summary of the questions, answers and opinions on this key issue. A good resource for cachers.

 

A quote from that thread:

 

Your argument depends on the flawed assumption that implied permission equals no permission at all. When the sign at the park reads:Park open from dawn to duskNo alcoholic beverages or glass allowedNo fireworksNo dogs allowedThat sign is giving implied permission for all other legal non disruptive recreative activities.Your argument would also require picnikers, kite flyers and frisbee throwers to get a permit.

 

Implied permission = permission.

"Adequate permission" does not require explicit permission.

 

Some public land requires a permit for a cache. You must get the permit. In other cases, a public park is for public recreation, and all activities are allowed that are not prohibited by law, by posted rules (eg, no dogs, no alcohol, etc.), by safety requirements, by respect for the environment, etc.

[+geodarts]

Implied permission = permission.

"Adequate permission" does not require explicit permission.

 

Some public land requires a permit for a cache. You must get the permit. In other cases, a public park is for public recreation, and all activities are allowed that are not prohibited by law, by posted rules (eg, no dogs, no alcohol, etc.), by safety requirements, by respect for the environment, etc.

 

On the other hand, it is very common in my area for parks and public land to be subject to regulations that go beyond posted signs. The county open space prohibits people from leaving any item on their land for more than 12 hours without permission, but it is not part of their posted rules. Although the agency will remove items they find, or things that have changed the natural environment (like stacked rock "sculptures") they have not made geocaching an issue. Every once in a while, an agency will choose to press the issue, and caches placed in certain locations (such as guard rails) or on certain types of property will be required to be removed - and every once in a while an agency will remove caches on their lands themselves. But if an agency does not directly address the issue, it does not necessary mean that there is implied permission. It can simply mean that they have not chosen to address the issue.

 

I am not sure how there can be implied permission to leave anything on property belonging to another, which would include utility poles, lamp posts, electric boxes, and other common locations. Years ago, in a different context, I was advised that leaving signs on utility poles violated the law. But many cachers have assumed that there is adequate permission and hides such as these are common.

 

Even when an agency provides guidelines for this game, cachers may not be aware of them. The California State Parks have written guidelines requiring caches to be left within three feet of designated trails and at least 300 feet from streams, marshes, or water features. Almost every cache I have seen in a state park does not comply with these rules (other areas may be different), but regardless of whether a rule is enforced or respected does not create implied permission to ignore it.

[+T.D.M.22]

Well I'm confused more than ever now. I'm still not sure how caches can be approved just by assuming one has permission to place a cache along a city highway and or on public right of way property.

 

The reason why I'm asking these questions is because I actually work for Public Works in Nashville. I've had extensive conversations with supervisors in the streets and roads division. They all have told me geocaching can land me a hefty fine if anything is stuck to or placed on city property without permission. This includes guardrails , off the city owned roadway , light pole skirts , water drains inlets , guide wire micro's etc. I guess I'll just stick to the hunting part of geocaching. But then again , they also told me just lifting up a light pole skirt can get you into trouble. Yikes ! Might as well stick to park hides. :/

 

How are you confused? The answer is that the hiders didn't ask permission, but said they had it. And apparently it hasn't done any harm. Nobody is doing anything wrong- except for lack of permission- are they? If they where the city would know about those caches. If you don't like it don't hide caches in those places, and don't find caches in those places. Otherwise just keep caching and leave it.

[+sbell111]

Implied permission = permission.

"Adequate permission" does not require explicit permission.

 

Some public land requires a permit for a cache. You must get the permit. In other cases, a public park is for public recreation, and all activities are allowed that are not prohibited by law, by posted rules (eg, no dogs, no alcohol, etc.), by safety requirements, by respect for the environment, etc.

On the other hand, it is very common in my area for parks and public land to be subject to regulations that go beyond posted signs.

The other side of that coin is that it's not at all uncommon for someone, when asked, to say that something is against the law/procedure/police/rules when in fact, there is no such law/procedure/policy/rule.