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What should be done with this cache?


Fox87Trot

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In my excitement to find a few caches today, I did not look at previous logs for the caches. While out and about, I came across a cache that was missing the top and had no log. I was fairly certain that it was the original container based on the hint and because it was not an ordinary cache. What I found was a stick that had been hollowed out and a container epoxied into the hole. Then the stick was wedged into a tree. Once home, I read the logs and found that others had found the same thing I had and in the same condition I had dating all the way back to 2012. Several Needs Maintenance logs had been written in 2012 until another cacher replaced the container with a film canister duct taped to a stick.

 

How would I log this? Did I find it since I found the original container that he CO was intending? Or is it a DNF because I didn't find the new container with the log? Should the original container be removed so people don't mistakenly think they found the cache like I did? The owner does not seem to be active, and his/her other caches have been archived one by one due to a lack of maintenance. The only reason this one is still around is because of volunteers maintaining it. To me, it seems like it should be archived, but since people are still finding the original cache or new cache and it seems to be a local favorite, its a tough call.

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I would log it as a Needs Archived with a detailed note about what I found at the GZ and the "volunteer" throwdown nonsense I read about in the logs.

I agree completely that you should suggest it needs archived and explain why.

 

As to logging it, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, but if I'm as certain as I can be that I found the original container, I'll tend to log the find even if the top and the log are missing.

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

 

Having it archived so nobody wastes their time searching for unmaintained garbage makes the game better.

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

 

The bolded part is the precise argument FOR archiving the cache. Sounds like it's either abandoned (changed emails or ignores them because they don't care) or is paying attention but, again, doesn't care because someone else is doing his or her job of maintaining. Both scenarios point to archival as the best option.

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

 

The bolded part is the precise argument FOR archiving the cache. Sounds like it's either abandoned (changed emails or ignores them because they don't care) or is paying attention but, again, doesn't care because someone else is doing his or her job of maintaining. Both scenarios point to archival as the best option.

Sounds like the CO is MIA so a NA is in order and move on.

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

 

Having it archived so nobody wastes their time searching for unmaintained garbage makes the game better.

I think I agree with you, but wait, :unsure: are you advocating having it archived WITHOUT removing it?

If the owner really hasn't been active in some time, I'd trash out both the broken container and the cheesy throwdown and post the NA note and feel like I'd done my good deed for the day...

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

 

Having it archived so nobody wastes their time searching for unmaintained garbage makes the game better.

I think I agree with you, but wait, :unsure: are you advocating having it archived WITHOUT removing it?

If the owner really hasn't been active in some time, I'd trash out both the broken container and the cheesy throwdown and post the NA note and feel like I'd done my good deed for the day...

 

It's not really your property, so whether or not taking it is a good deed is questionable.

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

 

Having it archived so nobody wastes their time searching for unmaintained garbage makes the game better.

I think I agree with you, but wait, :unsure: are you advocating having it archived WITHOUT removing it?

If the owner really hasn't been active in some time, I'd trash out both the broken container and the cheesy throwdown and post the NA note and feel like I'd done my good deed for the day...

 

It's not really your property, so whether or not taking it is a good deed is questionable.

 

At the very least, wait until a couple weeks AFTER it's archived.

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I would log that you found it. I would write that you think there are two containers at GZ. If reasonable, I would go back and find both, fix one, and remove the other. If not, I would maybe make a note of that and maybe the next person will be able to do that.

 

It's never reasonable to replace or remove a cache without the owner's permission.

 

Never is strong. But I should have added that I would (attempt to) contact the owner, and indicate that I removed the throwdown cache if he wants it.

He should be getting the emails generated from the logging and have some idea what is going on, so I think he knows that he should check on things.

But removing the duplicate is making the game better for the next cacher that comes along, in case the owner doesn't get out immediately (or at all).

 

Having it archived so nobody wastes their time searching for unmaintained garbage makes the game better.

I think I agree with you, but wait, :unsure: are you advocating having it archived WITHOUT removing it?

If the owner really hasn't been active in some time, I'd trash out both the broken container and the cheesy throwdown and post the NA note and feel like I'd done my good deed for the day...

 

Hmm, yeah, that strikes me as odd too. I would NOT take the trash out with me, if hte cache is still "active". It is not your property. However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash. However if it is STILL an active cache, it's not trash (yet) and should at least remain for others who are seeking it, even if it NM and has something resembling a cache-container at GZ.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

 

Abandoned property is still abandoned property. Where I'm from, damaged, abandoned property is trash.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

 

Abandoned property is still abandoned property. Where I'm from, damaged, abandoned property is trash.

 

By all means, if you are the land owner or land manager, or you are acting on their behalf, remove the abandoned, damaged property.

 

If you're just a do-gooder enviro-warrior looking to pat yourself on the back, maybe stealing other people's geocaches because they aren't listed on a particular website isn't the best way to do it.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

 

If ever asked about it? If they cared a hoot they would have maintained their cache as soon as a NM came through.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

 

If ever asked about it? If they cared a hoot they would have maintained their cache as soon as a NM came through.

 

I agree. There is always a .001%* chance that that particular cache is listed on "some other site" (does any other site still exist?), but the overwhelming majority of the time, if a cache gets archived on geocaching.com by a reviewer when the CO doesn't respond to logs, it's dead in the geocaching world and should be retrieved by someone. That someone should be the CO but we all know they no longer care so someone else going out and cleaning up the junk is a good thing.

 

*-obviously not a real statistic...it may not even be that high of a percentage.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

 

If ever asked about it? If they cared a hoot they would have maintained their cache as soon as a NM came through.

 

You don't really know that for certain. Sometimes people get sick or distracted by work and family obligations, and then return to the game when they are able to. You never know when someone will re-emerge. I know I wouldn't want to answer to someone if I'd made a big production out of calling them names and trashing their caches while they were caring for a dying relative or something.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

 

If ever asked about it? If they cared a hoot they would have maintained their cache as soon as a NM came through.

 

You don't really know that for certain. Sometimes people get sick or distracted by work and family obligations, and then return to the game when they are able to. You never know when someone will re-emerge. I know I wouldn't want to answer to someone if I'd made a big production out of calling them names and trashing their caches while they were caring for a dying relative or something.

 

True. There are only so many hours in a day and here in Atlanta, it's tough for me to run out to do maintenance immediately. Not just because of traffic and geography...but I have kids and a full-time job. My wife barely tolerates the little amount of caching I DO squeeze in, and it's asking a lot for me to run around town after work just to replace a container or check on a DNFed cache. No...instead I fit it in when possible, which is often days or even weeks after the issue comes up. Usually being a responsible husband, father, employee - human being - is a bit more important than being a responsible cache owner.

 

Honestly, it's not like I'm really holding anyone up. There's never a line of angry cachers waiting for me to replace the container so they can find it. If it ever got like that, I wouldn't even bother placing caches.

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However, if after a few weeks the cache is Archived officially due to either CO non-activity, or CO maintenance, or such, THEN any items left in that general area are considered Geo-trash.

 

... considered geo-trash by you. The container still belongs to the owner. If you're going to take it because you think it's "trash," be prepared to answer to the CO if she/he ever asks about it.

 

If ever asked about it? If they cared a hoot they would have maintained their cache as soon as a NM came through.

 

You don't really know that for certain. Sometimes people get sick or distracted by work and family obligations, and then return to the game when they are able to. You never know when someone will re-emerge. I know I wouldn't want to answer to someone if I'd made a big production out of calling them names and trashing their caches while they were caring for a dying relative or something.

 

The keyword is "sometimes". Yes sometimes people get so sick they cannot think about or do anything but tackle their debilitating problem, or they may have overwhelming family obligations. But it's rare. How many people do you currently know in that type of situation. It's rare in real life, it's rare in geocaching life. We may have temporary blips. I broke my leg and during the few months of recovery I was unable to maintain my caches. Thankfully none of my caches needed maintenance. But I was monitoring the site and my email. I would have disabled any caches that were in dire need of help. Or I would have asked via the cache page for help, or asked family to help.

 

Most often (probably 98% of the time) cachers grow bored with the game. Many hide caches with the intention of never monitoring or checking their caches. When there's trouble it will eventually get archived by a reviewer. Yet quite often those geocachers have time to find geocaches, even attend and host events yet rarely or never make the time to maintain their caches. The percentage of irresponsible cache ownership is far greater then the occasional responsible cache owner who finds himself in a life crisis situation.

I don't think we should excuse irresponsible cache ownership and excuse all the abandoned (often geotrash) that currently exists.

Regarding a delinquent cache owner getting angry that someone took their abandoned archived cache, it's a forum mythical scenario. Never heard of it happening.

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I don't think we should excuse irresponsible cache ownership and excuse all the abandoned (often geotrash) that currently exists.

 

I don't think we should be staunchly unforgiving and harsh because someone's cache got a bit of water in it over the winter, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts about these things.

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Regarding a delinquent cache owner getting angry that someone took their abandoned archived cache, it's a forum mythical scenario. Never heard of it happening.

That's odd, a Mod/Reviewer said a few times that when they could give thought-to-be abandoned caches up for adoption to others, he got caught in a bind when the owner came back a long time later, asking what happened to his property, and what gave him the right to give it away.

- One of the reasons they don't allow that anymore.

What's the difference?

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Regarding a delinquent cache owner getting angry that someone took their abandoned archived cache, it's a forum mythical scenario. Never heard of it happening.

That's odd, a Mod/Reviewer said a few times that when they could give thought-to-be abandoned caches up for adoption to others, he got caught in a bind when the owner came back a long time later, asking what happened to his property, and what gave him the right to give it away.

- One of the reasons they don't allow that anymore.

What's the difference?

 

I thought that was more about giving away the cache page. Then changes were made to the content. I could be wrong.

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Regarding a delinquent cache owner getting angry that someone took their abandoned archived cache, it's a forum mythical scenario. Never heard of it happening.

That's odd, a Mod/Reviewer said a few times that when they could give thought-to-be abandoned caches up for adoption to others, he got caught in a bind when the owner came back a long time later, asking what happened to his property, and what gave him the right to give it away.

- One of the reasons they don't allow that anymore.

What's the difference?

 

A cacher around here tried to have a "challenge" cache that was based on retrieving archived caches that were still out there. Not permitted.

 

It's a different story if the land owner or land manager is concerned about it and wants it removed.

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I don't think we should excuse irresponsible cache ownership and excuse all the abandoned (often geotrash) that currently exists.

 

I don't think we should be staunchly unforgiving and harsh because someone's cache got a bit of water in it over the winter, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts about these things.

 

I agree that we shouldn't be staunchly unforgiving. But when it comes to geotrash, it reflects poorly on the game.

Removing it is unlikely to get any reaction from the absent cache owner. But to be on the safe side what I have done is offer to return the cache, with a time limit of one month. That is, if the cache is not in deplorable condition. The containers that are broken and gross go straight into the trash. I post a photo of the geotrash as evidence to the cache page. I think I've trashed out 6 abandoned caches so far. Half were in gross condition - one I used my hiking stick and another stick to grab it and toss it into the nearby trash can, I didn't want to touch it with my hands. The cache owners of the other 3 never contacted me.

Edited by L0ne.R
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I don't think we should excuse irresponsible cache ownership and excuse all the abandoned (often geotrash) that currently exists.

 

I don't think we should be staunchly unforgiving and harsh because someone's cache got a bit of water in it over the winter, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts about these things.

 

I agree that we shouldn't be staunchly unforgiving. But when it comes to geotrash, it reflects poorly on the game.

Removing it is unlikely to get any reaction from the absent cache owner. But to be on the safe side what I have done is offer to return the cache, with a time limit of one month. That is, if the cache is not in deplorable condition. The containers that are broken and gross go straight into the trash. I post a photo of the geotrash as evidence to the cache page. I think I've trashed out 6 abandoned caches so far. Half were in gross condition - one I used my hiking stick and another stick to grab it and toss it into the nearby trash can, I didn't want to touch it with my hands. The cache owners of the other 3 never contacted me.

 

Hello irresponsible geotrasher, I know you are in the hospital trying to battle cancer but just wanted to let you know I stole your cache and you have one month to claim it.

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Hello irresponsible geotrasher, I know you are in the hospital trying to battle cancer but just wanted to let you know I stole your cache and you have one month to claim it.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I'll send over my friend to pick it up, because I couldn't find anyone to maintain my caches while I'm MIA.

 

IMO, the ideal situation would be:

If for any reason you pick up someone else's cache container without their permission (active or abandoned), always make an explicit effort to contact its owner. If it's not essential to pick it up right away, contact them first, then return at a later date. If you have it and have contacted the owner, hold it for an arbitrary amount of time to give them time to decide and respond as to if/how they would like it returned or picked up.If you haven't heard back and you're really nice, see if you can find/contact a friend of theirs to ask about the owner and/or pass on the request.

Respect property, respect people. Never presume maliciousness or worst case scenarios. Be ready to return the container if the owner wants it back there - whether you think it should be or not (unless of course it's illegal or plainly against the rules). It's their property.

 

Make an executive decision about a container if first and foremost it's causing a problem. Find a cache and then get told while at gz by the property owner that it's on private property and must be removed? Pick it up, then see above.

Container is broken and now a hazard in some manner and you have an identical one you can replace it with, so you decide to swap out the old with the new? See above.

 

Someone do any of the above with your container? Presume good will first, before jumping into the blame/slander game, make efforts to communicate and decide whether it's best for the container to be returned to its place, returned to you so you can go to replace it, replaced by the current holder, or simply archived and the holder can throw it out.

 

Ideally. If both sides fully respect each other and each others' property... :surprise:

Edited by thebruce0
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Hello irresponsible geotrasher, I know you are in the hospital trying to battle cancer but just wanted to let you know I stole your cache and you have one month to claim it.

 

Property is a somewhat loose concept under many circumstances within this game. On one hand, we refer to a "cache owner" and the container as being someone's property. On the other hand, if a cache was left somewhere without express permission it often fits the definition of abandoned property. And if the person who left it there is no longer playing this game, for whatever reason, the notion of property gets further stretched - particularly if the container has turned into geotrash. How many land owners or managers want people to ignore a disintegrating container left on their land, because the remnants of that are someone's property within the context of this game?

 

So as was stated above, treat whatever you find with respect. Make the best judgment call you can. Ask yourself if what you are considering is really necessary. Notify the person who left the container what you have done. If practical, offer to help out. Treat it as you would want your cache treated.

 

So yes, if I was in the hospital battling cancer I would be thinking of other things besides a container and be grateful that someone removed it if it were broken and otherwise turning into something that I did not intend to leave.

Edited by geodarts
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Hello irresponsible geotrasher, I know you are in the hospital trying to battle cancer but just wanted to let you know I stole your cache and you have one month to claim it.

....So yes, if I was in the hospital battling cancer I would be thinking of other things besides a container and be grateful that someone removed it if it were broken and otherwise turning into something that I did not intend to leave.

 

Same here. I want everyone who visits to have a good caching experience. If my cache becomes geotrash because I was say in a coma in the hospital for 6 months, it would embarrass me that people were finding a broken container with a moldy log. I would want it to be removed. If I ever recover I'll deal with placing new caches when I can get out again. Archived and removed caches is the least of my worries. I don't think I'd fuss over a few lock n lock boxes and birdhouses. I never expect them to last forever anyway.

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Hello irresponsible geotrasher, I know you are in the hospital trying to battle cancer but just wanted to let you know I stole your cache and you have one month to claim it.

....So yes, if I was in the hospital battling cancer I would be thinking of other things besides a container and be grateful that someone removed it if it were broken and otherwise turning into something that I did not intend to leave.

 

Same here. I want everyone who visits to have a good caching experience. If my cache becomes geotrash because I was say in a coma in the hospital for 6 months, it would embarrass me that people were finding a broken container with a moldy log. I would want it to be removed. If I ever recover I'll deal with placing new caches when I can get out again. Archived and removed caches is the least of my worries. I don't think I'd fuss over a few lock n lock boxes and birdhouses. I never expect them to last forever anyway.

 

If I was in the hospital or caring for a family member or something for a long time, finally got things together and was able to return to something I love, only to find that someone had badmouthed me to all the other geocachers as "irresponsible," called my geocaches "trash," and stolen them, I'd be pretty unimpressed.

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Regarding a delinquent cache owner getting angry that someone took their abandoned archived cache, it's a forum mythical scenario. Never heard of it happening.

That's odd, a Mod/Reviewer said a few times that when they could give thought-to-be abandoned caches up for adoption to others, he got caught in a bind when the owner came back a long time later, asking what happened to his property, and what gave him the right to give it away.

- One of the reasons they don't allow that anymore.

What's the difference?

That was me! You're remembering that real life scenario correctly, cerberus1. And I know of other examples from other areas.

 

The best thing about my story: the cacher who came back years later is now one of the more active and social geocachers in my region, and hides terrific caches. I had the pleasure of finally meeting him at a recent event. I asked him why he disappeared for so long, he explained why, and I said I was sure glad he came back. :cool:

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Hello irresponsible geotrasher, I know you are in the hospital trying to battle cancer but just wanted to let you know I stole your cache and you have one month to claim it.

....So yes, if I was in the hospital battling cancer I would be thinking of other things besides a container and be grateful that someone removed it if it were broken and otherwise turning into something that I did not intend to leave.

 

Same here. I want everyone who visits to have a good caching experience. If my cache becomes geotrash because I was say in a coma in the hospital for 6 months, it would embarrass me that people were finding a broken container with a moldy log. I would want it to be removed. If I ever recover I'll deal with placing new caches when I can get out again. Archived and removed caches is the least of my worries. I don't think I'd fuss over a few lock n lock boxes and birdhouses. I never expect them to last forever anyway.

 

If I was in the hospital or caring for a family member or something for a long time, finally got things together and was able to return to something I love, only to find that someone had badmouthed me to all the other geocachers as "irresponsible," called my geocaches "trash," and stolen them, I'd be pretty unimpressed.

 

On the extremely slim chance that I would dispose of an archived cache that turned out to be the cache of someone gravely ill (or caring for someone gravely ill) and they got better and were upset about someone throwing their cache away, I'd buy them a brand new ammo can, stock it with the best premium swag I could find and scout out a great location local to them so they could hide it if they so wished. I couldn't undo throwing the old cache away but I could (hopefully) make restitution that way.

 

If it's just a cacher who quit the game, left their cache to rot at the location and then returned and was mad because someone had the nerve to pick up the garbage they left behind...well, that I wouldn't care about.

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The keyword is "sometimes". Yes sometimes people get so sick they cannot think about or do anything but tackle their debilitating problem, or they may have overwhelming family obligations. But it's rare. How many people do you currently know in that type of situation. It's rare in real life, it's rare in geocaching life.

No matter how rare it is, it happens, so it's a mistake to accuse someone of being irresponsible when there might be a reasonable explanation. Besides, I don't think it's all that rare when you consider that geocaching is a game, so "busy at work" is a perfectly reasonable excuse. It doesn't have to be life and death.

 

But on the other hand, I log an NM because the cache needs maintenance. I log an NA because the cache should be considered for archival. (I don't pick up left over caches, but if I did, it would be because the container is trash.) It doesn't matter in any of those cases whether the CO has a good excuse or not. It's not about the CO, it's about the cache.

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The keyword is "sometimes". Yes sometimes people get so sick they cannot think about or do anything but tackle their debilitating problem, or they may have overwhelming family obligations. But it's rare. How many people do you currently know in that type of situation. It's rare in real life, it's rare in geocaching life.

No matter how rare it is, it happens, so it's a mistake to accuse someone of being irresponsible when there might be a reasonable explanation. Besides, I don't think it's all that rare when you consider that geocaching is a game, so "busy at work" is a perfectly reasonable excuse. It doesn't have to be life and death.

 

But on the other hand, I log an NM because the cache needs maintenance. I log an NA because the cache should be considered for archival. (I don't pick up left over caches, but if I did, it would be because the container is trash.) It doesn't matter in any of those cases whether the CO has a good excuse or not. It's not about the CO, it's about the cache.

 

There is a major difference between having the listing archived because it no longer meets Geocaching.com's guidelines, and taking a cache that isn't yours. It is certainly reasonable to use NM and NA when a CO appears to be neglecting to keep her/his cache maintained.

 

Based on the judgmental and unforgiving language used by some cachers, it is clear that taking archived caches isn't about cleaning up, it's about penalizing people for a pretty minor transgression.

 

Some of the unwritten "rules" and "etiquette" people invent are so strict and contradictory that they just set people up to fail.

 

Rules for Cache Owners: How you can avoid being an irresponsible geotrash slumlord

 

Hide a cache in a great, challenging place! But make sure you visit it every week because my heart will break if the container is slightly damp when I find it.

 

Don't allow false finds but don't audit the log because that is mean.

 

If you can't check it or fix it because your grandmother is in the hospital, ask for help, but don't ever ask for help because your cache is your responsibility.

 

Make sure the swag is awesome and great for adults and contains no toys, but also make sure it only contains toys because that is the only fun thing for kids. And make sure there is no swag because swag isn't what the game is about.

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There is a major difference between having the listing archived because it no longer meets Geocaching.com's guidelines, and taking a cache that isn't yours. It is certainly reasonable to use NM and NA when a CO appears to be neglecting to keep her/his cache maintained.

Indeed.

 

Based on the judgmental and unforgiving language used by some cachers, it is clear that taking archived caches isn't about cleaning up, it's about penalizing people for a pretty minor transgression.

Judgmental and unforgiving? :unsure:

The sentiment is for making a judgment call about whether a container should continue to exist where it is placed, and if it's deemed that it should be removed (whether it's 'geotrash', to be repalced, or simply should not be there). It sounds like some people would throw it out - but that was never in the context of a well-maintained, quality container, it was always "geotrash". That is, broken, shattered, garbage.

Even then, no one has blatantly disagreed that respecting such property is a Good Idea - that if you do remove it, consider the owner and let them know, even offer to keep it or return it or replace it. So I'm not sure who in this thread you're this mad about.

 

The only blatant 'destruction' of an owner's listing (the whole cache placement) I've read is where it is indeed merited - the owner is MIA, does not respond, does not care, cannot be feasibly reached, or the container has absolutely no more value; and that either plays out as a needs archived, or a CITO. If the container is trash, and the finder is a nice person it might still mean the container is kept for the owner for a while.

 

Maybe I missed such comments that you seem to be so clearly furious about...

 

Some of the unwritten "rules" and "etiquette" people invent are so strict and contradictory that they just set people up to fail.

Such as what?

Various people may have differing ideas of at what point a container can be considered "geotrash" and thrown out - and I would agree that a decent container thrown out without care is not respectful; I would agree that bad judgments can be made, such as whether a container should be where it's placed. But I don't think anyone disagreed that it is good to keep those points in consideration if/when you decide to remove a container. So we should encourage that.

 

Rules for Cache Owners: How you can avoid being an irresponsible geotrash slumlord

I'm really curious what's made you so mad about the issue of other people picking up containers - apart from blatant, actual stealing of property. (and if you do answer that, please try to respond respectably instead of with heated words; just explain a situation objectively, what happened, then what you believe happened; don't hurl labels and names around). I understand your enormous predilection for sarcasm. :P

 

Hide a cache in a great, challenging place! But make sure you visit it every week because my heart will break if the container is slightly damp when I find it.

Who here has ever said they'd remove a container because it's slightly damp?

 

Don't allow false finds but don't audit the log because that is mean.

I don't think anyone here advocates for that. Does it happen? Perhaps, by mistake or apathy. But condoning it as good practice? dry.gif

I would say most people do it in apathy - it's not worth the effort to audit a physical log sheet because there are so many factors in determining whether a signed logsheet related to Find logs 1 to 1 that it's no longer reliable; thus, as an owner, it's more feasible to augit find logs (including deleting what's judged as a false find) online than comparing to the physical logsheet - but no one would say that signing the logsheet as a finder is pointless and unnecessary. Is that an inconsistency you abhore so much?

 

If you can't check it or fix it because your grandmother is in the hospital, ask for help, but don't ever ask for help because your cache is your responsibility.

 

Make sure the swag is awesome and great for adults and contains no toys, but also make sure it only contains toys because that is the only fun thing for kids. And make sure there is no swag because swag isn't what the game is about.

Sometimes it's good to rant, but it helps if the points are related to the conversation... we've all been bitten by pet peeves. But I think many of us have learned to shrug off 'the little things'. All we can do is make sure we promote good etiquette, but we can't make every single person share that etiquette. And etiquette aren't rules, they're just ways to make the most people happy in this community pastime. Someone breaks etiquette? You can be the police and take on the stress of vigilante justice, or you can just enjoy the game, do what you can to make it good for others, and let the intangible issues roll off your shoulders.

 

If you need help with a cache, then certainly ask for help because your cache is your responsibility.

If someone else doesn't play the same, then help them - even if they hate you for it - but do it respectfully. If they hate you for it, so be it; it'll weed out the problem-players. =P

- that is, if you pick up a container that you have judged should be removed, then do all of the above; hold it, communicate with the owner, then based on your judgment on your attempted communication, replace it, toss it, re-place it, or return it. That's all there is to it. Then, don't presume guilt on anyone who removes a container that they're just a "geotrash slumlord".

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There is a major difference between having the listing archived because it no longer meets Geocaching.com's guidelines, and taking a cache that isn't yours. It is certainly reasonable to use NM and NA when a CO appears to be neglecting to keep her/his cache maintained.

I guess I don't see the difference. As I say, I don't collect containers of archived caches -- I find it amusing that an archived cache can be found -- but if someone decided that the container should be collected, I can't see that that decision is significantly different than posting an NA.

 

Based on the judgmental and unforgiving language used by some cachers, it is clear that taking archived caches isn't about cleaning up, it's about penalizing people for a pretty minor transgression.

Oh, well, that's an entirely different story. I'm thinking of containers that have degraded to the point of being actual trash and of cachers collecting someone's container for safe keeping, perfectly willing to give it back if asked.

 

Some of the unwritten "rules" and "etiquette" people invent are so strict and contradictory that they just set people up to fail.

I don't have much patience for people making up rules for other people, so I don't pay attention to this kind of stuff. And I'm not quite sure how you see it relating to the conversation.

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From the orriginal posting starting this thread:

I came across a cache that was missing the top and had no log. I was fairly certain that it was the original container based on the hint and because it was not an ordinary cache. What I found was a stick that had been hollowed out and a container epoxied into the hole. Then the stick was wedged into a tree.

Plastic parts in the forest, no logbook (since 2012): that's not a geocache anymore, that's geotrash.

 

Several Needs Maintenance logs had been written in 2012

Plus Needs Maintenance logs since 2012 and no reaction: that's a perfect reason for an NA.

 

another cacher replaced the container with a film canister duct taped to a stick.

A throwdown is not a geocache...(the cacher doing throwdowns should assume full responsibility for further maintaining but almost always won't and really can't since he doesn't own the listing). Could be removed as well. At least that's not the property of the original cache owner but of the throwdowner, who most probably won't claim a filmcan a valuable item (as would any court do). If he really wants it back there would be no problem.

 

The original cache is long gone. So no issue with a possible other listing site here. Their double listed cache would be in the same condition: no logbook, but trash.

 

We don't talk about a working cache in original condition here!

 

How would I log this?

• Log a Needs Archived.

• Remove geotrash, inform about that what you removed in your NA log and that you're willing to send the remainings to the cache owner within a reasonable timeframe.

• Log your find as you like - technically it's a DNF if your sign isn't in the logbook but since you found the cache leftovers pretty certain, it would be more or less acceptable. But that's totally up to you.

 

That's my 2 cents for the specific (!) situation of the original poster in this thread.

 

There could be more situations, real life, probable or totally constructed, with other preferable solutions. As always, communication is the key.

 

Examples from my experience:

I once found the logbook in the open near GZ, no container. Logged it, took it home with me, logged a find and a NM, offered the cache owner to send him the logbook (PET preform size). Never heard a word from him, the cache soon got archived (had a history of issues anyway), IIRC by local cacher's NA.

 

Another day I was out for a cache who was deactiveted (including a statement about archival soon) just before I planned to go there. Asked the cache owner if he's OK with my hunt for it. He agreed and in turn asked me to retrieve the container. So it was a Find for me, container rescued, got a beer at the next event (and watched the cache box beeing passed around with several other cachers signing the logbook and logging a find, but that's a whole other story). :)

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