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Cancelled Premium Membership Why I cancelled my premium membership.

#1 User is offline   Geo-Actuary 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:20 PM

I have been a premium member for several years now, but cancelled it this last renewal date due to the rigidness of the NY Admin in not approving two events that I submitted.

Previously I had held GPS-O events (which were approved by other reasonable administrators) where I invited Geocachers to an Orienteering event but had them look for the controls based on the cordinates I provided. The orienteers did their thing, the Geocachers did their thing. I even had a travel bug!

The NY Administrator refused to allow the two most recent events to be posted since they were not strictly limited to GeoCachers - whatever that nebulous phrase means! So I asked the NY Admin, what it takes to be a GeoCacher. Do you have to have a GPS? Does it have to be yours or can it be borrowed? What if this is your first Geocaching event, are you a Geocacher before the event or after the event. What if you didn't find the cache on your first try? Are you a Geocacher yet?

I don't think he/she liked the questions, and they still refused to allow the events to be posted. This, I believe, was very shortsighted on their part as the event could have been a draw for more people to become involved in Geo-Caching - which I thought was a goal of Groundspeak.

Just thought I would post my story of woe.

#2 User is offline   Keystone 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:28 PM

I took a look at your event submissions. Wow, I must say, that was GREAT detective work on the part of New York Admin. This proves once again the benefit of having dedicated regional volunteer reviewers. New York Admin took the time to find out that your event submission was a cross-listing of an event already scheduled and sponsored by the local Orienteering Association. Apparently this fact had been missed in the case of your past submissions.

A geocaching event is for geocachers. Per the listing guidelines, Geocaching.com does not use cache pages to publicize events that are primarily sponsored by other organizations.

#3 User is offline   sept1c_tank 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:42 PM

Quote

...The NY Administrator refused to allow the two most recent events to be posted since they were not strictly limited to GeoCachers...


Admittedly, I haven't read the event cache guidelines for a while, but I think the guideline says:

Quote

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers.


I havenít seen anything that says events should be exclusive to geocachers.

Keystone, on Oct 26 2005, 05:28 PM, said:

A geocaching event is for geocachers. Per the listing guidelines, Geocaching.com does not use cache pages to publicize events that are primarily sponsored by other organizations.


So this means if I want to have a party with friends who play chess (or offroad, four-wheel style), I can't also set up an event, open to all geocachers, to come party with me at the same time?

What about if my library (where I have a cache) sets up a geocaching seminar, open to the public, and I want to invite all the local cachers through the avenue of an event cache? :unsure: :D

#4 User is offline   Geo-Actuary 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:45 PM

Keystone,

The other Admins knew about the event and I even explaind that it was in coordination with but seperate from the Orienteers. They agree it was a great opportunity to promote Geo-Caching.

The letter of the law in and of itself never really serves anyone. At best it is an attempt by human beings to communicate what is truly the spirit of the law. And to follow the letter of the law in a situation like this is simply shortsighted.

To argue that the event was not primarily for GeoCachers is simply not correct. It was geared for GeoCachers and in fact it was only GeoCachers who participated in the ones that were allowed.

So if the denial was based on the incorrect assumption that it wasn't primarily for GeoCachers, the facts don't support that.

And I go back to my question to NY Admin - what is a GeoCacher?

#5 User is offline   Ambrosia 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:48 PM

It looks to me like the event isn't organized by geocachers, but by the local orienteering organization.


edit: maybe spoke too soon.

This post has been edited by Ambrosia: 26 October 2005 - 02:49 PM


#6 User is offline   Googling Hrpty Hrrs 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:59 PM

I do think the event guidelines are sort of unclear. While I certainly respect Keystone's comments, and believe the reviewer did follow the letter of the law, I think the law needs to be reviewed.

Why allow pizza party events ("Come on down to the Golden Corral, and have dinner with other cachers") when they have no intrinsic cacher value, compared to the aforementioned Orienteering event?

I was shut down on an event that consisted of everyone getting together at a local park, eating lunch, and then hitting the area caches. My response was that putting together a caching expedition was better suited for the forums or e-mail. Again, the reviewer was following the guidelines, but it still didn't seem right.

From my point of view, an event's purpose is to bring cachers together, primarily for the purpose of caching activities. (I'm actually not against non-cacher activities, as long as it's stated on the cache page) If just getting together at a local restaurant is an event, why can't cache-centric activities make the grade?

Lastly, why is it important that the event also be known to another organization, especially one like Orienteering, which certainly relates to geocaching? What is the value of the rule against cross-listing with a different group, especially if it is made known on the cache page?

Interesting topic for discussion. I wouldn't have canceled my membership, though. Doesn't hurt Groundspeak, only your pocket queries.

#7 User is offline   Renegade Knight 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:05 PM

I had thought the even rules were modified so you could do things like run a geocaching booth as part of a larger event.

#8 User is offline   Yamahammer 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:17 PM

I really don't care to read the Event Guidelines anymore than I care to read the instruction manual on my VCR. :D With that said, teaming geocaching with oreinteering seems as natural as hot dogs at a baseball game. To limit Events to GC only - is clickish, isolated and cultish. ... Did I just say 3 things that mean the same? :huh:

Carry on!

:unsure:

#9 User is offline   Harry Dolphin 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:30 PM

Yamahammer, on Oct 26 2005, 03:17 PM, said:

To limit Events to GC only - is clickish, isolated and cultish. ... Did I just say 3 things that mean the same? :D

Naw. Clickish means 'relating to a sharp, slight noise'. And, I'm pretty sure cuttlefish is what dolphin eat. (Oops, added a few letters...)
Back on topic, it seems to me that Geocaching Events are for geocachers. Open to all geocachers. Yes, that may be cliquish.
Hmm... Womder how that affects the local CITO event run by boy scouts?!?

#10 User is offline   welch 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:36 PM

Geo-Actuary, on Oct 26 2005, 04:45 PM, said:

To argue that the event was not primarily for GeoCachers is simply not correct. It was geared for GeoCachers and in fact it was only GeoCachers who participated in the ones that were allowed.

Go the other way, instead of organizing an orienteering event by orienteer(ers?) and inviting geocachers. Organize a geocaching event by geocachers, set up a orienteering/projecting course among the other activites. Then you'll have an geocaching event, by geocachers, for geocachers and whatever non-geocachers that might show up.

Here's the current guideline, notice the underlined parts:

Quote

Event Caches

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers. After the event has passed, the event cache should be archived by the organizer within four weeks. While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or townís fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers. In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

Event caches should be submitted no less than two weeks prior to the date of the event, so that potential attendees will have sufficient notice to make their plans. Events are generally listed no more than three months prior to the date of the event, to avoid having the listing appear for a prolonged period of time on the nearest caches page and in the weekly e-mail notification of new caches. Exceptions are sometimes made for events that are designed to attract a regional, national or international group of geocachers. Contact your reviewer if you wish to set up such an event, which may be listed up to six months in advance.


I'd like to submit a canoeing cache trip as an event, but it won't work. Just because some geocachers also canoe or some use canoes to do hydro caches, doesn't mean all canoeist geocache or that canoeing is geocaching. *shrug*

#11 User is online   tozainamboku 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:38 PM

Perhaps its hard to understand the guidelines in this instance because the activity - orienteering - seems to be at least marginally related to geocaching. It may be easier to use a different activity to illustrate the differences:

1. Let's get a team of geocachers together to participate in a bowling tournament and make it an event cache. This would not be allowed.

2. Let's have a geocachers' bowling tournament. You could invite non-geocachers, but each team in the tournament must have at least one bowler that has found at least one cache. This would be allowed.

3. There's a team of geocachers in the local bowling league and they've made the championship. Let's get together to root for our team. I think this would not be allowed, but its somewhat unclear.

The original event is hard to judge - is it 1) geocachers are participating in an orienteering event or 2) geocachers are using GPSr to run an orienteering course for fun - it just so happens that the orienteers are using the course for their event at the same time.

#12 User is offline   Yamahammer 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:41 PM

I wonder what the decision would be if Jeep wanted to do an Event to include everyone who reads their advertisements and geocachers? :D

Now the water gets muddy.

:unsure:

#13 User is online   tozainamboku 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:42 PM

welch, on Oct 26 2005, 04:36 PM, said:

I'd like to submit a canoeing cache trip as an event, but it won't work. Just because some geocachers also canoe or some use canoes to do hydro caches, doesn't mean all canoeist geocache or that canoeing is geocaching. *shrug*

:D I guess the pizza event is out. Just because some geocachers also eat pizza or some eat pizza while looking for caches, doesn't mean all pizza eaters geocache or that eating pizza is geocaching.

#14 User is offline   mini cacher 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:46 PM

Just wait until Waymarking events start showing up! Not all geocachers are waymarkers and not all waymarkers will be geocachers. :D

If a PM cancels their membership in the forest... do they make a sound?

This post has been edited by mini cacher: 26 October 2005 - 03:50 PM


#15 User is offline   welch 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:47 PM

tozainamboku, on Oct 26 2005, 05:42 PM, said:

welch, on Oct 26 2005, 04:36 PM, said:

I'd like to submit a canoeing cache trip as an event, but it won't work. Just because some geocachers also canoe or some use canoes to do hydro caches, doesn't mean all canoeist geocache or that canoeing is geocaching. *shrug*

:D I guess the pizza event is out. Just because some geocachers also eat pizza or some eat pizza while looking for caches, doesn't mean all pizza eaters geocache or that eating pizza is geocaching.

I'm not sure pizza events are about pizza. Its by geocachers for geocacher about geocacing, if pizza happens to be there (probably because its in a pizza parlour?) so be it.

Not if only I could get my reviewer to let me put a pizza in my canoe in the river while we discuss caching... but I don't think he would go for that.

#16 User is offline   nfa 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 04:05 PM

Not having read the listing, I cannot make a judgement on the decision by NYadmin...I think that this might be important in making a valid judgement as the wording of the listing could have an impact of the approval of said listing, I know that this has been the case in numerous listings of mine with NYadmin...

That being said, I have to say of my experiences with NYadmin that he/she/they/it has been consistently supportive, helpful, trusting, flexible, and open-minded when it comes to dealing with my cache-listings (42 to date)...and further, has/have always answered emails that I have sent with questions/ideas/whines about their decisions.

nfa-jamie

This post has been edited by NFA: 26 October 2005 - 05:08 PM


#17 User is offline   bogleman 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 04:39 PM

Quote

from Keystone - New York Admin took the time to find out that your event submission was a cross-listing of an event already scheduled and sponsored by the local Orienteering Association.
This is where the problem came from, it seems everyone missed this point. As for what NFA said wording can sink you really quick.

#18 User is offline   carleenp 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:32 PM

Googling Hrpty Hrrs, on Oct 26 2005, 05:59 PM, said:

Interesting topic for discussion. I wouldn't have canceled my membership, though. Doesn't hurt Groundspeak, only your pocket queries.

That was my thought too. Complaining about a guideline through blaming the reviewer or canceling membership lessens any good argument that might be there. People may or may not agree with the guidelines. That can lead to interesting discussion. But blaming a reviewer for applying a guideline doesn't fly with me since that is their job, and cancelling membership does nothing but add a tone of whine to it all and deprive the person of pocket queries and other items.

Anyway, I don't particulary want to be duped into attending what are really non-caching events put on by other organizations, so I don't mind the guideline. I'm not saying that people will normally be duped, but it could happen, and the using an event to advertise something else kind of bugs me. I would rather it be initially all organized by cachers and if it included some orienteering or other activities, OK. I could decide whether to participate in that part. I suppose the middle road might be to make an independent caching event before the orienteering event. Do a social breakfast for cachers before it or something. Let cachers get together and then if some want to migrate over to the orienteering thing together, they will. That way the event does not push another non-caching event on people, but still makes it available for people who are interesed. That would fit within the guidelines then and accomodate most people.

#19 User is offline   M-T-P 

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  Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:39 PM

Please allow me to bring this into the conversation from another one of Groundspeak's websites.

"Groundspeak's slogan is 'The Language of Location' and our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations on the planet."

Based on this company statement, I think the guidelines affecting this event cache really need to be re-evaluated. Just because there is a policy doesn't mean itís a good policy or that it can't ever change and/or exceptions made.

Now, I know this next statement comes from Waymarking.com and not Geocaching.com, but I think the overall attitude of democracy should apply to both.

"We expect the process of category creation to change with time, but in the beginning the categories will be carefully chosen by Groundspeak with the guidance of the growing waymarking community via the discussion forums. In the future we would like the category maintenance to be completely community-based and self-policing."

Could the rule interpretation of GC not also follow a similar standard? Can we not be "community-based and self-policing"? If so, I think the overwhelming consensus is this: 1) The cache might go against the current guidelines. 2) The spirit of the cache definitely goes along with the spirit of both Groundspeak and Geocaching.com. 3) The majority of community members who have posted on this topic think the cache should be allowed or at least re-evaluated instead of just written off because of a technicality.

Jeremy, I publicly ask you to reconsider your original stance and look at the larger issue - does this cache follow the spirit of geocaching and the overall goal of Groundspeak? If the answer is yes, then does a temporary exception to the policy need to be made or does the policy itself need to be re-evaluated?

This post has been edited by M-T-P: 26 October 2005 - 05:44 PM


#20 User is offline   El Diablo 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:43 PM

I think Carleen summed it up nicely.

El Diablo

#21 User is offline   fizzymagic 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:50 PM

carleenp, on Oct 26 2005, 05:32 PM, said:

Complaining about a guideline through blaming the reviewer or canceling membership lessens any good argument that might be there.

They aren't "guidelines." They are rules.

The distinction is important in this case.

If they were guidelines, complaining about the reviewer might make sense. But they are not guidelines, so, as you rightly point out, complaining about a rule by criticizing the reviewer who is forced to enforce it is not productive.

(Note to anyone who might be tempted to insist that they are, too, guidelines: Calling rules "guidelines" might make them seem less onerous, but it doesn't change the fact that they are rules. Look up the word "guideline" in the dictionary. Basically, if a approving a cache that is outside the "guidelines" requires some kind of special exception, then the "guidelines" are rules.)

(Another note: Words have meanings. Changing the meanings of words like "guideline" and "maintenance" to serve an agenda is repellent.)

This post has been edited by fizzymagic: 26 October 2005 - 05:51 PM


#22 User is offline   WalruZ 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:53 PM

What the guidelines really prevent is somebody scheduling a timeshare seminar as an event cache.

#23 User is offline   Keystone 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:56 PM

M-T-P, on Oct 26 2005, 09:39 PM, said:

Jeremy, I publicly ask you to reconsider your original stance and look at the larger issue - does this cache follow the spirit of geocaching and the overall goal of Groundspeak? If the answer is yes, then does a temporary exception to the policy need to be made or does the policy itself need to be re-evaluated?

I don't know that Jeremy will respond unless he chooses to take a break from site improvements, as this is a fairly routine cache listing/denial situation. Of course, the cache owner may always appeal to Groundspeak, where Hydee would likely be the person to look at the situation.

Based on the guidelines I'm asked to follow, I don't believe it is part of Groundspeak's "overall goal" to serve as a venue, through its cache pages, to provide free publicity for other organizations or businesses. If an exception is to be made, it must be made by Groundspeak and not by the volunteer reviewers.

An orienteering event sponsored by geocachers and for geocachers -- not by an orienteering association -- ought to be fine. So would a fly fishing event, provided it was sponsored by geocachers and for geocachers, not the local hunting and fishing club. Both those sentences would have been radical propositions two years ago. The event cache guidelines *were* re-evaluated, leading to the newer, looser standards that have been in effect since February of this year. Events no longer have to be "about geocaching," they just need to be about geocachers.

#24 User is offline   carleenp 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:05 PM

fizzymagic, on Oct 26 2005, 08:50 PM, said:

carleenp, on Oct 26 2005, 05:32 PM, said:

Complaining about a guideline through blaming the reviewer or canceling membership lessens any good argument that might be there.

They aren't "guidelines." They are rules.

The distinction is important in this case.

If they were guidelines, complaining about the reviewer might make sense. But they are not guidelines, so, as you rightly point out, complaining about a rule by criticizing the reviewer who is forced to enforce it is not productive.

(Note to anyone who might be tempted to insist that they are, too, guidelines: Calling rules "guidelines" might make them seem less onerous, but it doesn't change the fact that they are rules. Look up the word "guideline" in the dictionary. Basically, if a approving a cache that is outside the "guidelines" requires some kind of special exception, then the "guidelines" are rules.)

(Another note: Words have meanings. Changing the meanings of words like "guideline" and "maintenance" to serve an agenda is repellent.)

OK, I don't really disagree much with the semantics of "rule" v. "guideline." Either can have exceptions, but I tend to view the term guideline as more flexible. And I suppose some are more flexible than others. E.g. no commercial submissions is less flexible than the .1 mile rule etc. But that is getting OT I think, so I will resist the temptation to dissect the terms, as hard as it is since I am a nerd that likes to do such things! You have no clue how many dictionaries and related materials I own and my ability to use them to decide that there is no correct answer to defining the terms ! :D

Anyway, yeah, I don't think complaining about the reviewer is the answer. Go to the rule/guideline instead and discuss/argue that (which is likely a futile, but perhaps interesting discussion) or work with it to make the event fit it. I think there is a way to make it work by separating the events.

#25 User is offline   mini cacher 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:41 PM

Keystone, on Oct 26 2005, 03:28 PM, said:

Wow, I must say, that was GREAT detective work on the part of New York Admin.  ... New York Admin took the time to find out that your event submission was a cross-listing of an event already scheduled and sponsored by the local Orienteering Association.

All three of the previous events clearly made statements such as this "On Sunday, September 19, 2004 (National Orienteering Day) the Rochester Orienteering Club (ROC) will host a GPS-O at their meet at Highland Park Recreational Center with start times from Noon to 2:00 pm." I can only assume that these past denied events said much the same thing. Wow, that IS great detective work. It takes more than the average bear to put those clues together. :rolleyes:

That being said, it is a shame. It sounds like a fun type of activity. It might have allowed me to figure out why I have a compass in my caching bag. But rules is rules. As suggested, in the future the OP should just create an event that is for geocachers that just happens to have the same location and date as the "other" event. The event cache page can talk about pizza, geocoins and the possible oppurtunity to try something new with your GPSr (wink, wink)

Edit: I don't live anywhere near there, so I would not have been able to attend anyway.

This post has been edited by mini cacher: 26 October 2005 - 06:43 PM


#26 User is offline   M-T-P 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:54 PM

Keystone, on Oct 26 2005, 05:56 PM, said:

Based on the guidelines I'm asked to follow, I don't believe it is part of Groundspeak's "overall goal" to serve as a venue, through its cache pages, to provide free publicity for other organizations or businesses.  If an exception is to be made, it must be made by Groundspeak and not by the volunteer reviewers.

Well stated. The only one to fully interpret its own statement is Groupspeak. However, I still like the idea of "community-based and self-policing". Doesn't a plea from the masses count for anything?

Please note that I am not arguing that the cache isn't against the current guidelines (read "rule" if you are hung up on the linguistics). Nor am I saying that the approver acted inappropriately by denying the cache based on his interpretation of these guidelines. I am saying that I too disagree with the interpretation of the guidelines in this situation and think the cache needs to be re-evaluated. In addition, I think the guideline itself needs to be re-evaluated and/or exceptions made in potentially grey areas like this one. Just because a guidline is new or was recently changed doesn't make it any better or any worse than a guideline that has been in existence for years.

Finally, in a legal environment, the "intent to commit a crime" weighs heavily on the interpretation of a law. Clearly the intent here was to promote geocaching and orienteering even though the avenue for its promotion could be considered against the guidelines.

-------------- Response to different post begins here ---------------

In response to "Calling rules 'guidelines' might make them seem less onerous, but it doesn't change the fact that they are rules," call them laws for all practical purposes. A law seems even more formidable than a rule, but even the enforcement of laws relies on the interpretation of that law. Whether you say "guidelines," "rules" or "laws" doesn't change the fact that they must be interpreted to be enforced and that many people may interpret them differently. Semantics is just semantics.

The "golden rule" of Groundspeak seems to be "our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations." The event in question clearly seems to fall under this higher standard.

#27 User is offline   CO Admin 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 07:04 PM

Quote

The "golden rule" of Groundspeak seems to be "our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations." The event in question clearly seems to fall under this higher standard.


Except that if you go to the location and the event isn't there, say on another day, then its not that interesting in fact it could be down right boring. The people are what make it interesting. That saying doesn't really apply to an event cache as it is not what is normally defined as a cache. It could be just as easily defined as an meeting, gathering or simply event. Sorry but I don't see how you can apply that "golden rule" to an event cache.

This post has been edited by CO Admin: 26 October 2005 - 07:07 PM


#28 User is offline   The Jester 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 09:27 PM

CO Admin, on Oct 26 2005, 08:04 PM, said:

Quote

The "golden rule" of Groundspeak seems to be "our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations." The event in question clearly seems to fall under this higher standard.


Except that if you go to the location and the event isn't there, say on another day, then its not that interesting in fact it could be down right boring. The people are what make it interesting. That saying doesn't really apply to an event cache as it is not what is normally defined as a cache. It could be just as easily defined as an meeting, gathering or simply event. Sorry but I don't see how you can apply that "golden rule" to an event cache.

I can see how: "our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations." But reading the guidelines/rules/laws it seems we can't have an event that teachs people about geocaching, because they aren't geocachers (yet). Seems a little twisted to me.

#29 User is offline   CO Admin 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:05 PM

The Jester, on Oct 26 2005, 10:27 PM, said:

CO Admin, on Oct 26 2005, 08:04 PM, said:

Quote

The "golden rule" of Groundspeak seems to be "our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations." The event in question clearly seems to fall under this higher standard.


Except that if you go to the location and the event isn't there, say on another day, then its not that interesting in fact it could be down right boring. The people are what make it interesting. That saying doesn't really apply to an event cache as it is not what is normally defined as a cache. It could be just as easily defined as an meeting, gathering or simply event. Sorry but I don't see how you can apply that "golden rule" to an event cache.

I can see how: "our goal is to give people the tools to help others share and discover unique and interesting locations." But reading the guidelines/rules/laws it seems we can't have an event that teaches people about Geocaching, because they aren't geocachers (yet). Seems a little twisted to me.

That is not true. I list those types all the time. The guideline do not say "Event caches are gatherings that are open to ONLY geocachers and which are organized by geocachers. It does not prevent non geocachers from attending. What it does talk about is making an event out of someone else's meeting/class/whatever. The current guidelines explain that with this example "While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or townís fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers."

When the guidelines were adjusted this year one of the things was a better wording of the event guideline that let event be listed that could not be listed prior to the change. However you still can not tack your event on to someone else's project.

Please don't say that " we can't have an event that teaches people about Geocaching, because they aren't geocachers " as that is simply not true. Organize the event as a geocacher, make it available for other geocachers, and all the non cachers that want to attend can attend. As long you a cacher (or your caching org) sets it up its not an issue.

I hope this helps clear it up for you.

This post has been edited by CO Admin: 26 October 2005 - 10:05 PM


#30 User is offline   QOCMike 

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:48 PM

Quote

The current guidelines explain that with this example "While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or townís fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers."

It seems to me that there should be some consideration of the fact that geocachers will be using their GPS to navigate during the event. That should be an obvious difference from a concert, etc.

Keystone, on Oct 26 2005, 05:56 PM, said:

An orienteering event sponsored by geocachers and for geocachers -- not by an orienteering association -- ought to be fine.

As an orienteer, I can tell you that, regardless of the involvement of an orienteering club, GPS-Orienteering does not occur unless it's organized by a geocacher for geocachers. Like letterboxing, the crossover interest really is limited despite obvious similarities and orienteers who don't also geocache just aren't going to envision or organize a course with numerical coordinates.

It's not just GPS users. Except for one annual novelty event (this year President's Day Monday in FDR SP, GA) to help out the CIOR (international competition for military reservists) team, orienteers don't normally do too much with UTM grid maps either.

#31 User is offline   ATMouse 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 02:45 AM

Bless one and all here, but I thought Carleen made the clearest sense of the matter. It's not that geocachers are exclusive, but that an event whose primary function and organization is not geocaching, can't be cobbled into a geocaching event.

Makes sense to me, tho' at first glance, I didn't really see it.

#32 User is offline   briansnat 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 02:49 AM

Hmmmmm, he tried to hold an event that was in direct violation of the guidelines, and because it wasn't approved he cancels his memebership.

Makes sense to me :rolleyes:.

#33 User is offline   PCFrog 

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  Posted 27 October 2005 - 02:51 AM

CO Admin, on Oct 26 2005, 10:05 PM, said:

However you still can not tack your event on to someone else's project.

I see this quite often and can't think of a better way to get people (geocachers and civilians) to experience the event and learn about geocaching.

As long as the listing clearly points out that the cache event is being held in conjunction with another event and both event coordinators are in agreement. What is the problem with someone hosting a cache event at another event whether it be by another organization or a town event?

By what your saying is if another organization was to host some community event every year and this year the event organizer asked me to set up a geocaching hunt and introduction course I COULD NOT list it at GC.com to let other geocachers in the area that there is something going on that might be of interest to them. That just says to me that to be a geocacher you must be an introvert.

Just to clarify for those who need it.
Introvert - somebody who tends to be more interested in his or her own feelings and thoughts than in other people and the outside world (Iím geocacher and can only be with geocachers and hold events solely for geocachers by geocachers)

#34 User is offline   ATMouse 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 03:04 AM

Mmmmm..

What I see is trying to prevent an event that is being held by a non-caching group, that is, structured, scheduled and promoting an activity that is not geocaching, and then a geocacher says: "Hey, I'll bet we could put a cache out and make an event for cachers out of this," with no real input or intention of the MAIN event being caching.

So that if I go, when I get there, most every activity is about non-caching stuff and someone says after I've asked around a bit: "Oh yeah, I guess they put a cache out..."

#35 User is offline   CoyoteRed 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 03:09 AM

Looks like there are going to be no more Earthday CITO events. Bummer. :rolleyes:

:blink:

#36 User is offline   erik88l-r 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 04:03 AM

Quote

Looks like there are going to be no more Earthday CITO events. Bummer.


As long as the geocachers do their CITO cleanup in a distinct area there should be no problem. We recently had a CITO while a "Rivers Alive 2005" event was going on. We cleaned one park along a large lake shore. The Boy Scouts and other groups did their thing somewhere else along the lake.

With regard to the OP's events... He had similar events 14 July 04 and 19 Sept 04 approved by NY Admin. Then he had two on 4 June 05 and 17 Sept 05 declined by NY Admin. In the meantime the guidelines had been loosened in most respects when it comes to event caches. They had been tightened, though, in ways that prevented this example from being approved. It's a pity, and perhaps the guidelines do need to be re-defined again.
The cache reviewer should not be blamed for applying them though, and quiting in a huff is uncalled for too, IMHO.

Personally I think a tie in between orienteering and geocaching is a perfect one, and I would hope there would be ways of attracting orienteerers to our sport, while staying within the guidelines when it comes to event caches. I would encourage the OP to work with his local cache reviewer to see what could be done as an event.

erik - geocaching.com volunteer cache reviewer

#37 User is offline   Touchstone 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 04:30 AM

We had a very similar Event just South of me a few weeks ago (sponsored by the Poison Oak Cachers)...sorry, too lazy to link :rolleyes:

How did they get around the guidelines/rules? They invited the local Orienteering Club to their Cache Event! Sounds like they had a great time with the Orienteering crowd, but it was never an Orienteering Club Sponsored Event.

For Geocachers, by Geocachers. Pretty simple really :blink:

#38 User is offline   briansnat 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:01 AM

Quote

That just says to me that to be a geocacher you must be an introvert. Just to clarify for those who need it.
Introvert - somebody who tends to be more interested in his or her own feelings and thoughts than in other people and the outside world (Iím geocacher and can only be with geocachers and hold events solely for geocachers by geocachers). 



Its not that geocachers are introverts at all. Quite the opposite is true. Its just that you can't get a smiley for going to events that are not sponsered by geocachers.

The more I read the arguments here, the more I see is that's its about the numbers. Do you really need a smiley to see a parade, watch fireworks, go orienteering, or take in a ball game with other geocachers?

#39 User is offline   Tharagleb 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:10 AM

briansnat, on Oct 27 2005, 02:49 AM, said:

Hmmmmm, he tried to hold an event that was in direct violation of the guidelines, and because it wasn't approved he cancels his memebership.

Makes sense to me :rolleyes:.

Briansnat wins the thread! :blink:

#40 User is offline   ju66l3r 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:20 AM

Pretty stupid actually.

The OP has a good point that is being ignored in favor of trying to lump this event cache in with music concerts and whatnot to help feel justified in turning it down.

I recently attended a Geocaching Tournament in central MA. The hosts were the local business organizations and parks departments. I think they had 2 geocachers involved in the planning of the event but for the most part it was entirely designed and carried out by the local non-geocaching organizations as a method for bringing geocachers to their park systems. We had a great time and it was a great event, but it wasn't truely "by geocachers". The GPS-O isn't "by geocachers" either, but it's inviting geocachers to come out and run a course just the same.

It's all exposure for geocaching. The compass-only orienteers get to see GPSr and geocachers in action and vice versa.

We've got REI using accounts with no reference to the store and cache hints that don't include any mention of their commercial nature to set up caches because of a store opening...we've got TBs brought to you by Jeep with their own set of "omg, cheater!" angst...we've even got a movie studio able to buy their own cache type...

Here is a small orienteering club that wanted to invite geocachers to a GPS portion of their event and it was being done *by* a geocacher that has had previous events approved for this very thing (and with smiles all around according to the logs!). I just don't get it. Just because he didn't set out the flags or setup the timer's table or pay for refreshments means it's not "by geocachers" and therefore *not* an event cache. How many other big events outside of GeoWoodstock are going to fit into this category for foolish reasons? Is the argument that the geocachers have to at least do 50% of the work in creating the event? Or do they just have to be the ones to come up with the idea for the event?

Oh no, the Lions Club provided refreshments...not an event cache.

Oh no, the event's caches were put out by the local parks department...not an event cache.

Oh no, the day's activities were designed by and focused around the local commerce committees...not an event cache.

Oh no, that local organization invited us to join them instead of the other way around...now we can't submit it as an event cache...

Oh no, the cachers just decided to sit around a table in a local restaurant and chat...not an event cache.

The idea that the *entire* event has to somehow be, at the most extreme, 50/50 work-product of geocachers seems truly dumb and counter-productive to helping even the smallest geocaching organizers grow their community and encourage others to geocache. If geocachers are going to be involved in the workings of the event (and in this case they were) and geocachers are going to attend and have fun (and in past cases they have), then by all means let them have their event cache.

If all they have to do is come up with the idea, then it seems like a GPS-O fits the bill. The ROClub wasn't doing GPS courses until they teamed up with the OP (who sets out the coordinates for the flags on particular courses and makes the clues GPS appropriate). Just like a group of geocachers eating at a restaurant at the same time as other people eating, geocachers at the GPS-O would share the course but do it their way.

#41 User is offline   edscott 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:21 AM

Keystone, on Oct 26 2005, 05:56 PM, said:

M-T-P, on Oct 26 2005, 09:39 PM, said:

Jeremy, I publicly ask you to reconsider your original stance and look at the larger issue - does this cache follow the spirit of geocaching and the overall goal of Groundspeak?  If the answer is yes, then does a temporary exception to the policy need to be made or does the policy itself need to be re-evaluated?

I don't know that Jeremy will respond unless he chooses to take a break from site improvements, as this is a fairly routine cache listing/denial situation. Of course, the cache owner may always appeal to Groundspeak, where Hydee would likely be the person to look at the situation.

Based on the guidelines I'm asked to follow, I don't believe it is part of Groundspeak's "overall goal" to serve as a venue, through its cache pages, to provide free publicity for other organizations or businesses. If an exception is to be made, it must be made by Groundspeak and not by the volunteer reviewers.

An orienteering event sponsored by geocachers and for geocachers -- not by an orienteering association -- ought to be fine. So would a fly fishing event, provided it was sponsored by geocachers and for geocachers, not the local hunting and fishing club. Both those sentences would have been radical propositions two years ago. The event cache guidelines *were* re-evaluated, leading to the newer, looser standards that have been in effect since February of this year. Events no longer have to be "about geocaching," they just need to be about geocachers.

Ok let's look at this objectively.. An orienteering event needs a special map designed for the sport which is an outlay of something like $1000-$2000 / SqKM and a lead time of about a year. An Orienteering event needs at least 4 SqK of map and really should have over 5. Most maps are over a $10,000 investment for an Orienteering club. After the map is available courses need to be designed and set in the woods. An Orienteering club has offered some geocachers use of that money and time investment and you feel somehow the Orienteers are taking advantage of the Geocaching.com advertizing? We normally attract 200+ orienteers to our events each week. The dozen or so geocachers that might attend are not really significent to the orienteering event. You basically passed up a free lunch.

You suggest that geocachers set up an orienteering event.. Sorry, but unless those geocachers are also experienced orienteers they will not have the technical ability to do it properly. We left the USGS maps with flags in the woods mentality about 30 years ago.

#42 User is offline   Googling Hrpty Hrrs 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:27 AM

I believe the real question is NOT whther the reviewer followed the guidelines in not allowing the event- he/she clearly did. The question should be do the guidelines need changing.

I still can't understand OKing pizza party events at the local buffet place, and not events that relate to geocaching directly. I also don't understand the problem with cross-listing with other organizations, as long as they relate to geocaching/geocachers. What is the actual harm? Where's the logic in this prohibition?
Here's something to look at:

Let's say I submit an event sponsored by the local geocaching club, "Hillbilly Geo Club". Little does the reviwer (or other potential geocachers) know, the Hillbilly Geo Clubs' primary purpose is to drink beer and shoot each other with paint ball guns. And eat pizza.

Certainly, joining a legitimate Orienteering Club's event would be of more interest to me or most other geocachers. (okay, the beer may be a tipping point, but you get the idea.) I would skip most the approved non-geocache-trinsic events and go to the Orienteering/Geocaching event every time.

Isn't the more logical answer to this be transparancy on the cache page? Make the event coordinator explain what the activities will be, if any other groups will be there (hopefully to learn about geocaching) and let the potential event attendees make their own decision about attending?

Again, please don't bring up the current guideline. I know it was followed to the letter. I'm asking if it's a good policy, and how the policy benefits geocachers. Assuming there was no guideline and you were using common sense, which event would you want to allow- orienteering/geocaching/compass & GPS event, OR the $5.99 All-You-Can-Eat buffet get together? It seems real clear to me.

One last thing-

Quote

Does it have to be listed as an event to get the geocachers to come to it?


It has to be listed as an event to let other geocachers KNOW about the event. That's the purpose of the listing service in the first place. That's like saying why does the cache that you hid have to be listed. So that everyone will know about it! Has nothing to do with smilies. I think events shouldn't even be a part of your stats, personally.

This post has been edited by Googling Hrpty Hrrs: 27 October 2005 - 05:35 AM


#43 User is offline   ju66l3r 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:28 AM

briansnat, on Oct 27 2005, 09:01 AM, said:

Its not that geocachers are introverts at all. Quite the opposite is true. Its just that you can't get a smiley for going to events that are not sponsered by geocachers.

Bullsnat.

There were 1, maybe 2, geocachers actually involved in the creation and implementation of this event. The primary sponsors of this event were the local parks and chambers of commerce. Some caches in the event had you visiting stores, farms, and businesses (oh noes, mr bill!). It was a great event.

You can get smilies for going to events not sponsored entirely (or even in majority) by geocachers.

#44 User is offline   PCFrog 

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  Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:37 AM

ju66l3r, on Oct 27 2005, 05:20 AM, said:

Pretty stupid actually.

The OP has a good point that is being ignored in favor of trying to lump this event cache in with music concerts and whatnot to help feel justified in turning it down.

I recently attended a Geocaching Tournament in central MA. The hosts were the local business organizations and parks departments. I think they had 2 geocachers involved in the planning of the event but for the most part it was entirely designed and carried out by the local non-geocaching organizations as a method for bringing geocachers to their park systems. We had a great time and it was a great event, but it wasn't truely "by geocachers". The GPS-O isn't "by geocachers" either, but it's inviting geocachers to come out and run a course just the same.

It's all exposure for geocaching. The compass-only orienteers get to see GPSr and geocachers in action and vice versa.

We've got REI using accounts with no reference to the store and cache hints that don't include any mention of their commercial nature to set up caches because of a store opening...we've got TBs brought to you by Jeep with their own set of "omg, cheater!" angst...we've even got a movie studio able to buy their own cache type...

Here is a small orienteering club that wanted to invite geocachers to a GPS portion of their event and it was being done *by* a geocacher that has had previous events approved for this very thing (and with smiles all around according to the logs!). I just don't get it. Just because he didn't set out the flags or setup the timer's table or pay for refreshments means it's not "by geocachers" and therefore *not* an event cache. How many other big events outside of GeoWoodstock are going to fit into this category for foolish reasons? Is the argument that the geocachers have to at least do 50% of the work in creating the event? Or do they just have to be the ones to come up with the idea for the event?

Oh no, the Lions Club provided refreshments...not an event cache.

Oh no, the event's caches were put out by the local parks department...not an event cache.

Oh no, the day's activities were designed by and focused around the local commerce committees...not an event cache.

Oh no, that local organization invited us to join them instead of the other way around...now we can't submit it as an event cache...

Oh no, the cachers just decided to sit around a table in a local restaurant and chat...not an event cache.

The idea that the *entire* event has to somehow be, at the most extreme, 50/50 work-product of geocachers seems truly dumb and counter-productive to helping even the smallest geocaching organizers grow their community and encourage others to geocache. If geocachers are going to be involved in the workings of the event (and in this case they were) and geocachers are going to attend and have fun (and in past cases they have), then by all means let them have their event cache.

If all they have to do is come up with the idea, then it seems like a GPS-O fits the bill. The ROClub wasn't doing GPS courses until they teamed up with the OP (who sets out the coordinates for the flags on particular courses and makes the clues GPS appropriate). Just like a group of geocachers eating at a restaurant at the same time as other people eating, geocachers at the GPS-O would share the course but do it their way.

:rolleyes: Glad others see it this way as well.

#45 User is offline   Moose Mob 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:56 AM

As a cacher, I see an event published on geocachig geocaching event and there is a mention of orienteering course on that page.

When we show up, it's all about orienteering. Folks are trying to sell me maps and compasses. Nowhere to be seen is a group of cachers. Nowhere is a log book.

Sorry, it doesn't seem like geocaching. I would be ticked to have been led into this. I think I would rather be lifting lamp post skirts at Walmart.

/rant

#46 User is offline   ju66l3r 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:15 AM

Moose Mob, on Oct 27 2005, 09:56 AM, said:

As a cacher, I see an event published on geocachig geocaching event and there is a mention of orienteering course on that page.

When we show up, it's all about orienteering. Folks are trying to sell me maps and compasses. Nowhere to be seen is a group of cachers. Nowhere is a log book.

Sorry, it doesn't seem like geocaching. I would be ticked to have been led into this. I think I would rather be lifting lamp post skirts at Walmart.

/rant

What the hell are you talking about??

First of all, you haven't been to one of these...your post is very misleading. It's a work of fiction and it doesn't hold with the reality of those that attended the last GPS-O event as evidenced by their logs of the event cache.

Secondly, when you show up, you meet the OP who has a download station for your GPSr to get the coordinates to a few of the different routes. The map price is on the event cache page as an upfront cost so it's not like you're being bombarded like a bunch of Hare Krishnas jumped out of the woods or anything (those maps are not cheap to make and the few dollars just offset the extreme cost).

Finally, event caches don't have to have log books.

If you missed seeing the geocachers, then you're blind as a bat, they were the ones at the after-party with the GPSrs hanging from their necks over by the punch bowl...we waved to you, but you were too busy looking straight at the sun.

(See! We can all make up our own versions of what *might* happen!)

#47 User is offline   SCP-173 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:15 AM

ju66l3r, on Oct 27 2005, 09:20 AM, said:

Pretty stupid actually.

The OP has a good point that is being ignored in favor of trying to lump this event cache in with music concerts and whatnot to help feel justified in turning it down.

I recently attended a Geocaching Tournament in central MA. The hosts were the local business organizations and parks departments. I think they had 2 geocachers involved in the planning of the event but for the most part it was entirely designed and carried out by the local non-geocaching organizations as a method for bringing geocachers to their park systems. We had a great time and it was a great event, but it wasn't truely "by geocachers". The GPS-O isn't "by geocachers" either, but it's inviting geocachers to come out and run a course just the same.

It's all exposure for geocaching. The compass-only orienteers get to see GPSr and geocachers in action and vice versa.

We've got REI using accounts with no reference to the store and cache hints that don't include any mention of their commercial nature to set up caches because of a store opening...we've got TBs brought to you by Jeep with their own set of "omg, cheater!" angst...we've even got a movie studio able to buy their own cache type...

Here is a small orienteering club that wanted to invite geocachers to a GPS portion of their event and it was being done *by* a geocacher that has had previous events approved for this very thing (and with smiles all around according to the logs!). I just don't get it. Just because he didn't set out the flags or setup the timer's table or pay for refreshments means it's not "by geocachers" and therefore *not* an event cache. How many other big events outside of GeoWoodstock are going to fit into this category for foolish reasons? Is the argument that the geocachers have to at least do 50% of the work in creating the event? Or do they just have to be the ones to come up with the idea for the event?

Oh no, the Lions Club provided refreshments...not an event cache.

Oh no, the event's caches were put out by the local parks department...not an event cache.

Oh no, the day's activities were designed by and focused around the local commerce committees...not an event cache.

Oh no, that local organization invited us to join them instead of the other way around...now we can't submit it as an event cache...

Oh no, the cachers just decided to sit around a table in a local restaurant and chat...not an event cache.

The idea that the *entire* event has to somehow be, at the most extreme, 50/50 work-product of geocachers seems truly dumb and counter-productive to helping even the smallest geocaching organizers grow their community and encourage others to geocache. If geocachers are going to be involved in the workings of the event (and in this case they were) and geocachers are going to attend and have fun (and in past cases they have), then by all means let them have their event cache.

If all they have to do is come up with the idea, then it seems like a GPS-O fits the bill. The ROClub wasn't doing GPS courses until they teamed up with the OP (who sets out the coordinates for the flags on particular courses and makes the clues GPS appropriate). Just like a group of geocachers eating at a restaurant at the same time as other people eating, geocachers at the GPS-O would share the course but do it their way.

Masterfully said. The issue here isn't with NY Admin (I think he's been doing a fine job lately), but with the guidelines. I wasn't able to go to either of Geo Actuary's previous GPS-O events, but I have been working on 2 of his GPS-O courses in local parks. I'll admit I thought it was hokie at first, but it fit right in with my day of geocaching.

I don't see much difference between this event and sitting around a table eating. Unless the orienteering club is making money off the event I really don't see a problem with it. In fact, if it was listed I'd be going to it. And yes, I'd be one of the ones using a GPS instead of a map and compass. :rolleyes:

The guidelines are very, very vague on many subjects that I've seen come up. As a result the admins get bad mouthed for it, when really it's text on a computer screen that's to blame. The guidelines as a whole could really use an update so that everything is totally clear. Actually, it'd be nice if they were updated constantly as new issues arise. As it is now a lot of things are acted upon with seemingly arbitrary decisions because it's just not spelled out in the guidelines for everyone to see. And the occasional exception wouldn't make the world stop turning. Here's hoping I can attend an upcoming GPS-O event.

#48 User is offline   Moose Mob 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:33 AM

As folks continue to stack soap box on top of soap box and continue to climb. to make sure "they" are heard over all others.

I think the point is that geocaching eents started as a geocacher's social get together. We the help each eather out ans teach each other GPS's

Growth is good, but it must be controlled. If event grow to where we can talk about geocaching at a boy scout meeting, quilting party or attending your local high school football game.

Rather than attack everyone that does not agree with your own personal opinions, perhaps you can come up with something constructive, like event guideline ideas that everyone else will agree with.

#49 User is offline   edscott 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:36 AM

Moose Mob, on Oct 27 2005, 05:56 AM, said:

As a cacher, I see an event published on geocachig geocaching event and there is a mention of orienteering course on that page.

When we show up, it's all about orienteering. Folks are trying to sell me maps and compasses. Nowhere to be seen is a group of cachers. Nowhere is a log book.

Sorry, it doesn't seem like geocaching. I would be ticked to have been led into this. I think I would rather be lifting lamp post skirts at Walmart.

/rant

Yes they are different sports. Orienteering is about finding the spot as quickly and efficiently as possible, verifying your find using a paper punch or electronic punch and moving on to the next location, while maintaining a total awareness of your position on a map while moving at your top speed. Competitive participants run alone and thus you will not see groups working together except for instructional purposes. Our punch card or electronic punch is our log book.. it verifies we were there with a few holes in a card or some data on a chip. I happen to like both activities, others may only have an interest in one. Actually there is a rule in Orienteering prohibiting any electronic devices while competing..ie altimeters, gps, walkie talkies.. etc, but our group is also interested in teaching anyone about how to navigate. We do programs for scout groups, home school students, outdoor clubs, adult schools, state park programs, and the like. It is a way to promote the sport and also a way to get land managers involved. Orienteering clubs are constantly being asked.. often begged... to map public lands and use them, a far cry from the hassles we sometimes have in placing a cache. If a trip to Walmart is an adventure, then go for it but putting down a sport which you don't really understand is as lame as a lamp post cache.

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:55 AM

Vargseld? ô, on Oct 27 2005, 04:15 AM, said:

ju66l3r, on Oct 27 2005, 09:20 AM, said:

Pretty stupid actually.

The OP has a good point that is being ignored in favor of trying to lump this event cache in with music concerts and whatnot to help feel justified in turning it down.

I recently attended a Geocaching Tournament in central MA.  The hosts were the local business organizations and parks departments.  I think they had 2 geocachers involved in the planning of the event but for the most part it was entirely designed and carried out by the local non-geocaching organizations as a method for bringing geocachers to their park systems.  We had a great time and it was a great event, but it wasn't truely "by geocachers".  The GPS-O isn't "by geocachers" either, but it's inviting geocachers to come out and run a course just the same.

It's all exposure for geocaching.  The compass-only orienteers get to see GPSr and geocachers in action and vice versa.

We've got REI using accounts with no reference to the store and cache hints that don't include any mention of their commercial nature to set up caches because of a store opening...we've got TBs brought to you by Jeep with their own set of "omg, cheater!" angst...we've even got a movie studio able to buy their own cache type...

Here is a small orienteering club that wanted to invite geocachers to a GPS portion of their event and it was being done *by* a geocacher that has had previous events approved for this very thing (and with smiles all around according to the logs!).  I just don't get it.  Just because he didn't set out the flags or setup the timer's table or pay for refreshments means it's not "by geocachers" and therefore *not* an event cache.  How many other big events outside of GeoWoodstock are going to fit into this category for foolish reasons?  Is the argument that the geocachers have to at least do 50% of the work in creating the event?  Or do they just have to be the ones to come up with the idea for the event?

Oh no, the Lions Club provided refreshments...not an event cache.

Oh no, the event's caches were put out by the local parks department...not an event cache.

Oh no, the day's activities were designed by and focused around the local commerce committees...not an event cache.

Oh no, that local organization invited us to join them instead of the other way around...now we can't submit it as an event cache...

Oh no, the cachers just decided to sit around a table in a local restaurant and chat...not an event cache.

The idea that the *entire* event has to somehow be, at the most extreme, 50/50 work-product of geocachers seems truly dumb and counter-productive to helping even the smallest geocaching organizers grow their community and encourage others to geocache.  If geocachers are going to be involved in the workings of the event (and in this case they were) and geocachers are going to attend and have fun (and in past cases they have), then by all means let them have their event cache.

If all they have to do is come up with the idea, then it seems like a GPS-O fits the bill.  The ROClub wasn't doing GPS courses until they teamed up with the OP (who sets out the coordinates for the flags on particular courses and makes the clues GPS appropriate).  Just like a group of geocachers eating at a restaurant at the same time as other people eating, geocachers at the GPS-O would share the course but do it their way.

Masterfully said. The issue here isn't with NY Admin (I think he's been doing a fine job lately), but with the guidelines. I wasn't able to go to either of Geo Actuary's previous GPS-O events, but I have been working on 2 of his GPS-O courses in local parks. I'll admit I thought it was hokie at first, but it fit right in with my day of geocaching.

I don't see much difference between this event and sitting around a table eating. Unless the orienteering club is making money off the event I really don't see a problem with it. In fact, if it was listed I'd be going to it. And yes, I'd be one of the ones using a GPS instead of a map and compass. :rolleyes:

The guidelines are very, very vague on many subjects that I've seen come up. As a result the admins get bad mouthed for it, when really it's text on a computer screen that's to blame. The guidelines as a whole could really use an update so that everything is totally clear. Actually, it'd be nice if they were updated constantly as new issues arise. As it is now a lot of things are acted upon with seemingly arbitrary decisions because it's just not spelled out in the guidelines for everyone to see. And the occasional exception wouldn't make the world stop turning. Here's hoping I can attend an upcoming GPS-O event.

I think the guidelines are fine and reviewer do a very good job of supporting one anothers decisions (at least in the public forums).

As I see it, enforcement consistency is a problem. I realize that not every cache reviewer is going to see eye to eye and that each area of the world has slighly different ideas of what is okay for a cache. But, there could be a lot more consistency between reviewers. This is particulary true when you have more than one reviewer for an area, a guest / stand-in reviewer, and when a new reviewer takes over an area and uses the old reviewers name.

It can be very confusing when someone says something is okay, the rules don't change, then later the same person (or who you assume is the same person due to their name) tells you that it is now not okay.

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