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Electrical Equipment Caches not allowed

#1 User is offline   IowaAdmin 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 04:48 PM

I recently turned down a new geocache listing because the cache was on or near electrical equipment. That owner then wrote to me to tell me about 4 other similar geocaches that were approved. So I looked at each listing and archived each of them. This policy is endorsed by Groundspeak and most approvers. It's unsafe to make a geocache look like part of electrical equipment, whether or not the nearby equipment is actually "live." It may encourage some geocachers -- including children -- to open "live" equipment. So even though you can buy these types of containers on eBay sites, please don't submit them for approval. They are simply not a good idea and may lead to tragic consequences in the future

#2 User is offline   BlueDeuce 

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 05:16 PM

Thank you!

And let's not use past approved caches as an argument to allow them.

This post has been edited by BlueDeuce: 27 October 2005 - 05:32 PM


#3 User is offline   welch 

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 11:18 AM

Ok, to summarize your saying:

1. It's unsafe to make a geocache look like part of electrical equipment, whether or not the nearby equipment is actually "live." It may encourage some geocachers to open "live" equipment.
2. It's unsafe to place a geocache on or near electrical equipment, whether or not the nearby equipment is actually "live." It may encourage some geocachers to open "live" equipment.

right?

and thanks for the notice ;)

#4 User is offline   Rainwater 

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:26 AM

Thats fine and dandy not to allow any more...I dont agree with it but if thats what "Guidlines" you come up with then what can I do about it?

All electrical equipment that is within reach of the public is locked up and can't be opened without actually using some sort of tool anyhow...but with that said...

I dont think its fair to suddenly kill other caches that are already in place due to the new rule. Sort of like the moving caches. There are no more of those approved but the ones that are out there are still allowed. Thats like passing a law that where you change the speed limit in an area and then go back and ticket everyone that ever passed through that area. Same principle.

Now...
The reason I dont agree with the whole idea is this will lead to a slippery slope.

What will be banned next?

Book caches because it encourages people to remove and open lots of books?

Ammo box caches because it encourages people to look inside ammo boxes, which let me remind everyone they really did use to hold ammo and I have see some that still do.

What about caches near water? It could be argues that kids and people are lured to the edge of slipper muddy banks of water because they are seeking a cache. Lets ban all caches near water.

What about caches that are on cliffs? Lets ban those because they encourage kids and people to climb up and around dangerious clifs.

What about caches that look like cactus? That encourages people and kids grab those and look for caches.

What about water pipes? I have seen some good ones that are water pipes. That encourages people to look and try to open up water lines and pipes...

See where this could lead?

#5 User is offline   BlueDeuce 

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 11:19 AM

Rainwater, on Oct 30 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

Thats like passing a law that where you change the speed limit in an area and then go back and ticket everyone that ever passed through that area. Same principle.

Are you honestly comparing playing around electricity with a civil law?

Stupid is as stupid does I guess.

#6 User is offline   Rainwater 

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 03:51 PM

No one said to play around electricity. I am compairing the principle of the matter. Going back and punishing the ones that should be grandfathered in is wrong. Are you stupid enough to go poking around inside electrical boxes Bluedeuce?

Isnt it up to the cacher to decide if a cache is too hard or too dangerious to attempt? If you go and stick your head in a hole and a badger grabs a hold of you, is GC.com responsible? If they are then I have a lot of scraps and scrtches me and my kids want to be reimbersed for for the price of the banadaids

If you look at it hard enough, anyone can find something wrong with ANY cache.

We had one around here that was underneath a merry go round. If you look at it just right, you could say that we should not put caches underneath merry go rounds because it causes the "kids" to crawl underneath looking for caches, and someone could jump on it and start spinning it and crush the kid. So we need to ban all merry go round caches and all that are out there now.

I challenge anyone to find an example where someone was hurt or killed by electricity looking for a cache disguised as an electrical box or any electrical related thing.

any takers?

Iowa Admin, are you an electrician?

#7 User is offline   mgoose 

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  Posted 30 October 2005 - 04:30 PM

My two cents! I don't agree with it! I have done several caches around
or on electrical equiment and never had problem.I can not see a cacher
putting another cache endanger!! If we really wanted to we can find
some think wrong with any cache that looks like some thinking else or
where it was place!! I work with electriciti every day! In public place
it is lock up or trun off till needed. Mite come back to shot me in
the foot but it is my two cents!! Goose

P.S. If this happens, there will be alot of caches archive!

#8 User is offline   welch 

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 04:31 PM

Rainwater, on Oct 30 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

Thats fine and dandy not to allow any more...I dont agree with it but if thats what "Guidlines" you come up with then what can I do about it?

All electrical equipment that is within reach of the public is locked up and can't be opened without actually using some sort of tool anyhow...but with that said...

I dont think its fair to suddenly kill other caches that are already in place due to the new rule. Sort of like the moving caches. There are no more of those approved but the ones that are out there are still allowed. Thats like passing a law that where you change the speed limit in an area and then go back and ticket everyone that ever passed through that area. Same principle.

*chop

I'd still like to know what 'electrical equipment' is and if that would include things are not electrical equipment.... I've seen one cache that was right next to one of those metal telephone line 'mini-towners' (10"x10"x3ft). I emailed the owner and said i thought he should relocate the cache because it would encourage people to search and/or hide for caches like that in the future, and since they could be dangerous that would be bad.
His stance was this one was secure and that it could only be opened with special tools, and that even if it was damaged or left some open by some fluke, this sort of box couldn't electrocute you. I have no idea if thats true or not but I still think one metal box thats harmless, but looks similar to another metal box thats potentialy dangerous is a bad idea.

Anyways, on to the slippery slope.
Is this really a change? or just correcting a mistake?
Moving caches are grandfathered because it was ok, then it was not. But have electrical equipment caches ever been ok?
The guidelines of this site talk about selecting spots wisely to not arose suspicion, to avoid terriost targets, and of course common sense is always good. Its true that electrical equipment is not specifically in the there, but if EVERY single disqualification and exemption has to be in be included so its followed they'll end up being 100 pages long!
Perhaps there is a slippery slope, but are we willing heading towards it?
Find something that isn't specifcally in the NO column and do the heck out of it till its stopped. (changing coords, changing type, (commerical) caches in cafes, caches w/o logbooks, blurry webcams, caches near schools, and more examples that were wrong but were so fringe it wasn't specifically checked)
Maybe in the future we'll have to take a test that we've read the guidelines, or maybe we'll have to submit panoramic pictures with a written essay about why everything in the picture is ok and not a problem for that cache placement.

#9 User is offline   BlueDeuce 

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 05:38 PM

Rainwater, on Oct 30 2005, 05:51 PM, said:

any takers?

Iowa Admin, are you an electrician?

You're trying to push it down your slippery slope and claim it's a remote danger.

I'll write more tomorrow, too tired tonight.

#10 User is offline   Electric Mouse 

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 09:43 PM

Just a pre-emptive moderator strike here. You all are playing nice so far, so no worries yet.

Please keep the discussion civil. E.g. about the topic of electrical boxes/caches that can look like live wires etc. Avoid the "stupid" comments etc.... Those seemed OK/civil so far in context, but raised an eyebrow for me. Hence the preemptive comment.

As I said, you all are playing nice, but I thought I should throw in that preemptive warning just in case things get heated. Heated but civil=OK, heated with name callling=not OK. And I thank you in advance for the former!

Carry on..... :huh:

#11 User is offline   Rainwater 

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 07:34 AM

Thank you electric Mouse!

#12 User is offline   Jeeper Rick 

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 11:49 AM

I think with the current situation of letting a local reviewer have complete say on what gets approved or not should be the question. Approve a cache give it a probation period, if cachers log its too dangerous then remove it but don't do a wholesale ban on any kind of cache. The trouble with a reviewer is they interpet the guidelines to their view and many of them haven't done alot of caches to know what your talking about. I know of one that was being attempted to be approved here in Oklahoma and they said it was againist guidelines while at the same time period one was approved in another state and there were others just like it in more than a few states. Geocaching.com should have an appeal process independent of the local reviewer and the local cacher and interpet the guidlines across the country uniformly. Electrical box caches, that I have seen, have all been so obvious once you notice them that its really a no brainer. As long as you don't put them amongest a bunch of "live" stuff there shouldn't be a problem.

#13 User is offline   welch 

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:01 PM

Jeeper Rick, on Nov 2 2005, 01:49 PM, said:

I think with the current situation of letting a local reviewer have complete say on what gets approved or not should be the question. Approve a cache give it a probation period, if cachers log its too dangerous then remove it but don't do a wholesale ban on any kind of cache. The trouble with a reviewer is they interpet the guidelines to their view and many of them haven't done alot of caches to know what your talking about. I know of one that was being attempted to be approved here in Oklahoma and they said it was againist guidelines while at the same time period one was approved in another state and there were others just like it in more than a few states. Geocaching.com should have an appeal process independent of the local reviewer and the local cacher and interpet the guidlines across the country uniformly. Electrical box caches, that I have seen, have all been so obvious once you notice them that its really a no brainer. As long as you don't put them amongest a bunch of "live" stuff there shouldn't be a problem.

:rolleyes: I think someone posted the numbers once, I don't recall it exactly but It was like Reviewers average a thousand finds, and a few dozen hides each.

(edit: I may have a been a bit too high, in March 04 average was given as 562f/38h , By August 04 it was up to 700f/40h. Couldn't find anything more recent, but it has likely increased.)

Yes, personal intepertaion does happen, and it is a problem. Its why the reviewers have their own forum to get a group consenous. Its also why the guidelines lay out what to do if you feel your caching isn't be fairly reviewed.
The last two things given are 'post a message in the Groundspeak Forums to see what the geocaching community thinks' and 'send an e-mail with complete details, waypoint name and links to appealsATgeocaching.com.' and would seem to be independent.

This post has been edited by welch: 02 November 2005 - 01:28 PM


#14 User is offline   Electric Mouse 

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:37 PM

Jeeper Rick, on Nov 2 2005, 11:49 AM, said:

I think with the current situation of letting a local reviewer have complete say on what gets approved or not should be the question. Approve a cache give it a probation period, if cachers log its too dangerous then remove it but don't do a wholesale ban on any kind of cache. The trouble with a reviewer is they interpet the guidelines to their view and many of them haven't done alot of caches to know what your talking about. I know of one that was being attempted to be approved here in Oklahoma and they said it was againist guidelines while at the same time period one was approved in another state and there were others just like it in more than a few states. Geocaching.com should have an appeal process independent of the local reviewer and the local cacher and interpet the guidlines across the country uniformly. Electrical box caches, that I have seen, have all been so obvious once you notice them that its really a no brainer. As long as you don't put them amongest a bunch of "live" stuff there shouldn't be a problem.

The reviewers all have an impresive amount of experience, finds and/or hides. You may be confused because some reviewer accounts will show 0/0 stats. This is because many reviewers use a separate account for reviewing. Thus, my account shows 0 finds, but my player account has between 900 and 1000.

For an appeal process, politely writing to the reviewer is the first step. He or she will normally post the issue for comments and votes in the reviewer forums. Sometimes things will change. I know of several cases where once something was posted for comments it was decided to list it. If the decision not to list the cache remains the same, you can also write to appeals at Groundspeak dot com. The guidelines discuss this.

This post has been edited by Electric Mouse: 02 November 2005 - 01:38 PM


#15 User is offline   Electric Mouse 

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:41 PM

welch, on Nov 2 2005, 01:01 PM, said:

(edit: I may have a been a bit too high, in  March 04 average was given as 562f/38h  , By August 04 it was up to 700f/40h. Couldn't find anything more recent, but it has likely increased.)


I think the August 04 one was the last time that was calculated, so I don't think you missed a more current one. I would imagine that it has increased some or is close to the same now.

OK sorry for getting OT. Back to electrical boxes..... Well, not for me, I have nothing to say about them (yet). :blink:

This post has been edited by Electric Mouse: 02 November 2005 - 01:42 PM


#16 User is offline   Renegade Knight 

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 02:04 PM

A clarification.

Fake Electrical Equipment (the cache) near nothing. ?

Is the entire thing about staying away from former and current actual equipment, or is it about not even going there at all?

#17 User is offline   Jeeper Rick 

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 04:13 PM

Not to offend my fellows cachers on the reviewers expertise but I have over a thousand finds and I have still found caches that are different and have not been seen around my area. I feel as the game progresses we will all see new and innovative cache puzzles, containers etc. But just because you have the "numbers" does not mean you have seen it all and that you are an expert.

#18 User is offline   welch 

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 05:16 PM

Jeeper Rick, on Nov 3 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

Not to offend my fellows cachers on the reviewers expertise but I have over a thousand finds and I have still found caches that are different and have not been seen around my area. I feel as the game progresses we will all see new and innovative cache puzzles, containers etc. But just because you have the "numbers" does not mean you have seen it all and that you are an expert.

That's always true, even for people with alot of finds or hides.:D
My point wasn't that reviewers know everything, but they generally know quite a bit and that '...many of them haven't done alot of caches to know what your talking about.', isn't true.

#19 User is offline   Electric Mouse 

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 06:13 PM

Jeeper Rick, on Nov 3 2005, 04:13 PM, said:

Not to offend my fellows cachers on the reviewers expertise but I have over a thousand finds and I have still found caches that are different and have not been seen around my area. I feel as the game progresses we will all see new and innovative cache puzzles, containers etc. But just because you have the "numbers" does not mean you have seen it all and that you are an expert.

Yes, there are all sorts of innovative caches out there, and the reviewers may or may not have personally seen them. I doubt any cacher can claim to have seen them all. But the reviewers do have a large amount of finds and experience. The reviewers also have the benefit of private forums to discuss caches and if they are OK under the guidelines. Often a new idea that might push the guidelines is discussed. Sometimes it is decided it is OK to list it. Sometimes the discussion decides against that. The reviewers are pretty conscious about those things and seek further opinions. We really would rather list caches than deny them! But we also aim to follow the listing guidelines and we are required to follow them.

With the electrical boxes, I would not list a cache that was disguised as electrical equipment and attached to or very near actual live electrical equipment/wires. Although the risk (whether real or very slight) of seeking a cache is placed on the finder, concerns arise over the legalities of such a placement. Depending on the circumstances, there could also be concerns about suspicious activity that could be viewed as terrorism, and such a cache could arguably be covered in the guidelines against defacing public property. We can't list those things under the guidelines. But a fake elecrical box stuck in an area where there are obviously no live wires etc, would be OK with me. I have found one of those before and was rather amused by it. Since there was no risk and it was not defacing public property, there was no issue. It also still fit with the area, so it made for a tough find.

With archiving other caches that are brought to our attention, we have to do that. If a cache is found not to meet the guidelines, it is archived unless it falls under a guideline that changed and it is grandfathered. Moving caches are an example of that. Caches that are illegally placed or deface public property are not grandfathered.


Quote

I know of one that was being attempted to be approved here in Oklahoma and they said it was againist guidelines while at the same time period one was approved in another state and there were others just like it in more than a few states.


With this, I will clarify a couple of things. First, the nature of the cache may or may not have been apparent on the review page when it was listed. Not too many people are going to state on the page that the cache is a fake electrical box placed on electrical equipment. We usually learn about those through complaints from other cachers. Next, the guidelines provide that other cache listings are not precedent for future listings. In part because of the first reason I gave.

Anyway, I hope ths helps provide some background/information. I guess I had something to say on the electical box issue after all! :D

This post has been edited by Electric Mouse: 03 November 2005 - 06:17 PM


#20 User is offline   Jeeper Rick 

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 03:15 AM

Thanks for straightening me out! I see now than my point of view was entirely wrong and you guys are right about everything. I will quit posting my opinion and just read the forums and shake my head.

#21 User is offline   nfa 

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 05:00 AM

Jeeper Rick, on Nov 4 2005, 06:15 AM, said:

Thanks for straightening me out! I see now than my point of view was entirely wrong and you guys are right about everything. I will quit posting my opinion and just read the forums and shake my head.

I don't think that that's what anybody is say or telling you to do...do you have to be acknowledged as being right in order to participate in these forums? A lot of the time, people in these forums will agree to disagree on points of geocaching etiquette, guidelines, gear, etc.; the important thing is to be able to do so in a civil and respectful manner.

The OP was describing their approval process and the reasoning behind it, a perfect use of these forums. I think it's great when the approvers open a dialog with their "constituency", to allow some discussion of evolving aspects of the game.

That being said, I was a little put off by the thread title, "Electrical Equipment Caches, not allowed". I read through the new and improved guidelines (which are much improved in terms of clarity and flow...thanks to all who worked on them) and there is nothing mentioning electrical equipment of any sort. I now understand that the OP meant that he is not allowing caches made from, or attached to, electrical equipment...but the thread title sounded more sweeping.

I'm not sure which side I come down on in this discussion...I agree that caches disguised as electrical boxes and the like could potentially lead to tragedies, but so can caches hidden at the top of dangerous climbs, 70 feet below the surface of the ocean, out along narrow bridge supports high above rocky rivers, and in Trenton NJ :D

just my $0.02

#22 User is offline   ZingerHead 

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 09:30 AM

Electrical boxes are private property, and potentially dangerous private property at that. Just because that pad transformer enclosure (or whatever) was locked when you hid your cache doesn't mean it won't get left unlocked at some point. Not everybody realizes what's inside an electrical enclosure - but everybody knows that falling off a cliff is going to hurt, and that it's hard to breathe underwater.

Besides, I have worked in the electrical business for twenty years, and I have yet to see an electrical enclosure that I though was so cool I wanted to share it with others by hiding a cache there. Aren't there more interesting places to hide caches?

#23 User is offline   Electric Mouse 

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 06:40 PM

NFA, on Nov 4 2005, 05:00 AM, said:

Jeeper Rick, on Nov 4 2005, 06:15 AM, said:

Thanks for straightening me out! I see now than my point of view was entirely wrong and you guys are right about everything. I will quit posting my opinion and just read the forums and shake my head.

I don't think that that's what anybody is say or telling you to do...do you have to be acknowledged as being right in order to participate in these forums? A lot of the time, people in these forums will agree to disagree on points of geocaching etiquette, guidelines, gear, etc.; the important thing is to be able to do so in a civil and respectful manner.


NFA is right. The forums involve discussion and sometimes people disagree. Sometimes the discussion finds that most hold the same opinion. Sometimes there are equally split and polar opposite opinoins. Sometimes there are a wide variety of opinions. As long as the discussion is civil and respectful, the discussion carries on. There are so many things in caching to debate and the debate is rarely personal. It is just that: a debate. It can be easy to read words and find offense, especially if the writer disagrees, when in many/most cases the writer meant no offense what-so-ever. That seems to be the nature of internet forums at times. Of course if things get obviously personal or mean then a moderator steps in. Fortunately that seems to be rarely needed in the great plains forum, which I thank you all for immensely! :D

#24 User is offline   Wreck Diver 

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 09:01 PM

IowaAdmin, as a professional in multi-aspect public safety, I have had to deal with the recoveries of several individuals this year whose premature demise could have been avoided had a little common sense been applied.

The latest attempt at recovery was when an inebriated football fan decided that he wanted bragging rights for swimming in the twenty foot waves that accompanied the hurricane-driven Nor'easter that slammed Massachusetts last week. Ironically enough, he entered the water in sight of "A Swell Mourning," one of my caches related to the loss of several Coast Guardsman who drowned during a rescue.

As a multi-year cacher, I've had the displeasure of seeing the results of GPS fixation when combined with ill-thought hides and over-eager searching.

Prima facia example is the deliberate dismantling of three hundred year old rock walls in the quest for a Tupperware container. It is beyond comprehension that a cacher would be so icon-driven or so ignorant so as to destroy a historical boundary that had survived three centuries of New England weather, randomly hurling rocks with eventual aspirations of another bitmapped smile.

I had no uncertainty that the same tunnel vision or lack of common sense would be applied by cachers attempting to locate geocaches cleverly disguised as electrical components, so I have previously requested that such geocaches no longer meet approval guidelines.

So, for what it is worth from someone that has to deal with the consequences of preventable accidents and the harrowing recoveries of its victims, I thank you.

#25 User is offline   4wheelin_fool 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 12:42 AM

Bumping as part of lampost and elecrtical safety awareness day January 28th.

#26 User is offline   doug_hollyNKC 

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:31 AM

View PostZingerHead, on 04 November 2005 - 09:30 AM, said:

Besides, I have worked in the electrical business for twenty years, and I have yet to see an electrical enclosure that I though was so cool I wanted to share it with others by hiding a cache there. Aren't there more interesting places to hide caches?


Well of course there is ZingerHead. There is literally probably billions of street light and parking lot light poles just screaming to have a geocache placed at them. :ph34r: :laughing:

Would a light pole qualify as electrical equipment?

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