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Garmin Unlock Codes and migrating to new hardware

#1 User is offline   Vlad 

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 10:15 PM

You know, I just have to vent here, yes a little R&R. I knew the answer to my question before I emailed Garmin but I thought maybe, just maybe, somehow, someway, that things had changed...

Quote

I own several garmin gps units and a great many mapsource products including CN and Bluechart for 2 different regions and 2 different gps units.  I would like to sell my map60cs and pick up one of the newer units - how do I go about moving my unlocked software to the new unit.  I don't have any unused unlocks left on my software.

Quote

Thank you for contacting Garmin International,

I would be happy to help you with this.  Since you have used your free unlocks, you would need to purchase the software that you want to have on your new unit.  Please feel free to contact us should you have any further questions and we'll be glad to help you.  Thank you for contacting Garmin.

Best Regards,
xxxxxxx

As a longtime supporter of Garmin and someone that has owned (and upgraded) 6 high-end Garmin units (from handhelds to streetpilots to chartplotters) now, oh and yes I think I'd like to purchase a Nuvi 350, a 60CSX, and a Forerunner 305 just as a START for the new year. Hmm as I consult my crystal ball, I wonder what else is yet to come (note, none of this is factual in any way - just dreaming...):

* maybe a RINO 520/530 with expandable memory - the "x" gen model?
* uh, isn't everything going color - maybe my Forerunner 305 will be available with a color display in 3-4 months or less
* obviously the gpsmap476 (successor to the 276/376) with CF, SD or microSD memory must be right around the corner
* wait maybe a Nuvi 360 or is it the 400 that supports WMA music files and gives you Su Doku too!
* maybe garmin will finally bring out that astronomy product i suggested to them about 4 years ago - give me the night sky in my choice of color or red screen, integrate it with an electronic compass, automatically use my global position and the ecompass to determine exactly what's viewable overhead and present it as i look at the heavens my "starmap" shows me the names, the constellations, etc and even incorporate some degree of integration to modern telescopes...

I appreciate Garmin for their technical expertise and the obvious significant amount of money they spend on R&D but do they have to make such dadgum nice products????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So as I continue to support Garmin (because using their products makes me happy - "no I don't want that product... I need that product") with my hard-earned $$$ I sure would appreciate some flexibility in their software licensing. I know that there is little they can do since it's companies like Navteq and others that define the licensing model but Garmin, if you're listening... please push back on behalf of your customers...!

If I'm willing to send my GPS unit to you for 2-3 weeks so that you can ensure that that unit can never again run the "software" (then return it to me so I can sell it at a loss - of course, it's an electronics product!) why can't it be possible for you to migrate my licenses to that great new hardware that I just purchased from you?

It's not City Select or City Navigator so much that are the issue - I'm probably going to be re-purchasing that type of product with the new unit anyway. It's all those other locked products that you really only want to have to purchase once, not every year...

I'm probably the only person that feels this way... :ph34r:

Ranting and raving over. Now I need to rest. Have a nice day.

#2 User is offline   Neo_Geo 

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 11:05 PM

Vlad, on Jan 7 2006, 10:15 PM, said:

why can't it be possible for you to migrate my licenses to that great new hardware that I just purchased from you?

Why can't you peel that beautiful paint off the walls of your old home and slap it up in your new home?

Why can't the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority give me a card so I won't have to pay to ride the subway anymore. I've been supporting them for over 10 years. Surely all that money I've given them over the years can be transferred over for future rides.

Why can't my wife be a virgin again? :ph34r:

Sorry man. I understand your point, and yes it sucks that they lock their products in that way. But hey! I've been using City Select 5 since I got my 60C when that model first came out - and I haven't used my second unlock on anything yet (and probably never will). I'm gonna upgrade to City Navigator next year when it comes out, and be happy that I'll be able to pay good money to do it!

I've gotten my money's worth out of those City Select maps MANY TIMES OVER! To just turn on my GPSr, put in an address and command it to "Go To" and have it get me there without hearing my wife nag me to ask for directions... I don't have to spend half an hour or so searching Map Quest or Yahoo for maps and routes, and try to read those directions while driving... I just turn it on and it magically gets me there! The money I've spent on the maps divided by the money saved by all of the time saved by having these maps - the quotient is negligible! :)

I understand your point of view, but I offer very little sympathy. ;)

#3 User is offline   DelSolSea 

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 01:25 AM

I have to agree Garmin should support a service where units could be sent in for deregerastration of the map software. For example the unit is damaged or being sold you can still use your map software in another unit. Your allowed two units for City Select and that's it. Some people purchase a modle and find there needs change or desire to upgrade to a newer model the user should not be penalized on the software purchase! If you buy a new computer you can still use your old software!!! Garmin could still maintain that each user only had the software active on X number (two) of units at a time.

60CSX with external MEMORY CARD FINALLY!!!!!!!!! It's about time GARMIN!!!

512MB OH YA that will be nice to be able to swap out the Nav maps and have the hole USA all covered on just a few mem cards instead of revisiting the PC to reload each time you go for biz trip in a different parts of the US! It will be nice to have TOPO Maps on mem card as well as Nav Maps, with the larger 512 MB we should be able to cover a lot of area on a single card!

I love my 60CS but maybe that new Nav software and receiver chip in the 60CSX will kick a** ! I hope so, at least they got a winning form factor on the 60C series in my opinion! For the diversified mobile use that is. Hay if you like an egg shaped unit on your dash or wrist watch size for hiking that's all cool they got those as well but for hand held mobile portable functional and rugged the 60CS series rocks!

I use it for every thing from daily driving, biz trips, paragliding and geocashing!

:ph34r:
DelSolSea

#4 User is offline   MagicTogether 

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  Posted 08 January 2006 - 01:51 AM

Ah well, then here's an empathetic opinion to keep the world in balance.

When I buy a gallon of gasoline, I expect to be able to use it in the vehicle of my choice.

When I buy a gallon of paint, I expect to be able to use it on the wall I chose and use the remenant whenever I choose.

When I bought a set of maps I expected to be able to use them whenever and where ever I imagined.

When I bought Windows XP, opened the package and read the license I disagree with it. Then, in accordance with the license I returned it to the place of purchase for a full refund. I don't think CompUSA had ever experienced that before.

I expect to be able to use a product until I'm fully done with it, it's used up in toto, or I'm just plain tired of it. If I want to move a book from one shelf to another it's my call to do so, not the publisher. So it is with software, in my opinion. If I have it on a machine and wish to move it to another I expect to be able to do so. If not, I'll find another author to purchase from.

I also returned the MapSource Software I once bought and have never since purchased nor recommended their products favorably.

:ph34r:

Jim
The Grouchy one of:
MagicTogether - Alaska

#5 User is offline   jimmyreno 

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 02:38 AM

my next GPSr will be a Magellan, and this unlock code policy is the major reason :ph34r:

#6 User is offline   Neo_Geo 

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 10:28 AM

MagicTogether, on Jan 8 2006, 01:51 AM, said:

When I buy a gallon of gasoline, I expect to be able to use it in the vehicle of my choice.

Uh-huh. And you usually put it in the vehicle of your choice when you pump it! Right? Once you use it, do you expect the gas station to fill your other cars, boats, airplanes, jet-skis, lawn mowers, leaf blowers just because you once filled-up you car there?

MagicTogether, on Jan 8 2006, 01:51 AM, said:

When I buy a gallon of paint, I expect to be able to use it on the wall I chose and use the remenant whenever I choose.

When you buy a gallon of paint, you CAN put it on the wall (GPSr) of your choice. Once you do, then it's VERY difficult to get it off and re-apply it to a new wall, right? You're welcome to use the remainer (2nd unlock) on another wall too. Once that's gone, do you expect the paint store to give you as many gallons of paint for all of the walls in your house simply because you once bought a gallon of paint there? :ph34r:

This post has been edited by Neo_Geo: 08 January 2006 - 10:31 AM


#7 User is offline   HugoOne 

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 11:04 AM

jimmyreno, on Jan 8 2006, 02:38 AM, said:

my next GPSr  will be a Magellan, and this unlock code policy is the major reason :ph34r:

Good luck with Magellan's unlock policy ;)
Be prepared to use the datacards that Magellan approves for you and I believe you can only use 2 cards without forking over extra $$$ to Magellan ...

#8 User is offline   Vlad 

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 05:05 PM

like i said, my issue is not with city select and city navigator - it's with bluechart and other programs like that (fishing hot spots, etc) where you just don't use them that often - and they're expensive to upgrade.

i live in canada but yet last january i purchased an unlock code for the southeast caribbean so i could "follow along" on the cruise ship. a one-time use, and maybe i'll use it again in future, or maybe not (in 10 years how many new units might i purchase?). i also own bluechart for lake of the woods where i fish maybe 6-10 times per year. bluechart is pricey, basically the same price as city select ($75/upgrade) but the coverage is minute in comparison to that of CS or CN.

garmin continues to enhance their chartplotter offering (prompting me to continually upgrade) and the navigation charts change somewhat often with buoy placements and hazards that come and go with changing water levels (particularly on freshwater lakes).

if i buy on a datacard well then that's one solution - then i can move my purchase from unit to unit easily. but that hasn't been an option on all units previously which is why i own the cd version and have my 2 unlocks. the other downside to datacards is that you can't do any trip/route planning on your pc - you've got to do everything on your gps - the smaller screensize and lack of a keyboard doesn't make that the most ideal way to go about things.

maybe garmin should just start bundling bluechart into every chartplotter purchase just like cs and cn on every automotive unit?

This post has been edited by Vlad: 08 January 2006 - 05:05 PM


#9 User is offline   Neo_Geo 

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:38 PM

Well, I think BlueChart maps are some pretty highly specialized maps. You may not use them very often, but I imagine shrimp boat captains of the Bubba Gump Corporation (and other professional seamen) probably use it 24 hours a day.

Not sure about Fishing Hot Spots - I'm not much of a fisherman. But if it can help you win a bass-fishing tournament, then I'd say it'd be worth it's weight in gold (including the jewel case).

#10 User is offline   jimmyreno 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 12:18 AM

HugoOne, on Jan 8 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

jimmyreno, on Jan 8 2006, 02:38 AM, said:

my next GPSr  will be a Magellan, and this unlock code policy is the major reason :ph34r:

Good luck with Magellan's unlock policy <_<
I believe you can only use 2 cards without forking over extra $$$ to Magellan ...

People tell me you have 5 codes with Magellan, compared to 2 with garmin B)

#11 User is offline   HugoOne 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 05:40 AM

jimmyreno, on Jan 9 2006, 12:18 AM, said:

People tell me you have 5 codes with Magellan, compared to 2 with garmin :ph34r:


It still is another unlock policy and invariably somebody will run into it and say "why?????? I hate it!!!! I'm never buying xxxx again...." <_<

This post has been edited by HugoOne: 09 January 2006 - 05:41 AM


#12 User is offline   ImpalaBob 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 05:48 AM

Questions that come to mind .....

Why not sell the Map software with the GPS unit you are getting rid of?

How much does an extra unlock code cost?

<_< ImpalaBob

#13 User is offline   ardfarkle 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 05:49 AM

Vlad, I feel your pain. I have 5 copies of XP Pro and have needed to get new activation twice when I upgraded to new computers. While it's not the same as having various products such as CN, BlueChart, etc. that cannot be placed on more than 2 products, the process could be made the same if Garmin would change the way they license map products.

Currently the unlock code is produced by providing Garmin with the unit serial number along with the map product's registration or coupon code. I've never understood why they didn't just use the serial number of the map product instead having a separate registration code. Nevertheless, a separate registration code is exactly what is needed for my idea to work. Not for the map product, but for the GPS unit. Here's the idea.

The map products would have a serial number just like like they do now. The GPS units would have a serial number, but would also have a specific unit registration code for map products. This code would be produced at the factory by running a registration code application built into the unit which is accessible via a keypad sequence. Actually, at the factory it would accessed via a testing rig and the code would be automatically produced. The keypad access method would be provided for users to change the registration code, or effectively decommission the old code. This application would be full of warnings etc. about how producing a new registration code will require a new map product registration and unlock code, and how all current products will cease to load/function until the new unlock code is provided.

The method used to produce the GPS unit registration code would be a random number generator which is then hashed against the unit serial number to create the registration code. This would then be saved to a normally protected area of flash RAM in the GPS where is would be accessed and compared while loading maps. If it's a kosher code when checked by MapSource, then let the registered products for that unit load. It's the same as before but the GPS unit holds the valid registration information. Of course there would be a way to reload the registration code just in case something goes terribly wrong.

The above method would allow Garmin customers to upgrade to new GPS units and still retain use of their current maps and upgrade rights. All they would need to do is to decommission the maps from the old unit/s.

Should Garmin provide this service for free? Hmm.. I thought about this and have come up with two concepts.

1) The only reason you would be asking for this service is because you have purchased new Garmin equipment and want to continue to use your old software/maps. This does two things for Garmin; it provides a path for the user to continue to purchase future Gamin's products that will support your software, and it does the same for the user's ability to upgrade their software as new versions become available.

2) Well, all services cost money and it has to come from someplace. Garmin would either have to include the cost upfront which would 'slightly' increase the price of their GPS products, or they could charge a nominal fee to cover costs. I was thinking that $15.00 U.S. for a single new unlock code, and $20.00 for two or more code produced at the same time. You obviously don't want to tell the owner of a fishing fleet that the upgrade for their 42 'new' Garmin units will be $1260.00. $630.00 for the land map codes, and $630.00 for BlueChart codes. I figure after the first two codes, you've pretty much proven to Garmin you're a loyal supporter.


My last gripe/suggestion is to change the upgrade pricing policy. I think it should have three tiers:

Upgrade to next version: 33% of retail
Upgrade from one version behind, ie V5 to V7, or V6 to V8: 50% of retail
Upgrade from any version 2 version back or more: 66% retail

This would induce more users to follow the upgrade path IMO.


Anyway, that's how I think it should be done...

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 09 January 2006 - 05:52 AM


#14 User is offline   Maingray 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 06:08 AM

I'm sure that if it was more practical, a lot of these companies would muuuch prefer us to pay a monthly "unlock" subscription to access these maps <_<

#15 User is offline   Klemmer & TeddyBearMama 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 09:23 AM

After reading the above, I'll just keep on using my Magellan Meridian Platinum with Magellan Mapsend Topos (ver 3.00), with NO UNLOCK CODES. Full US topos and streets. Guess I got it at the right time, huh? Doubt it works with Explorists, and certainly not with Garmins.....

Edit: I DO also agree with 'ardfarkle', but won't hold my breath for Garmin OR Magellan to adopt such a sensible scheme.

This post has been edited by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama: 09 January 2006 - 01:24 PM


#16 User is offline   MagicTogether 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 01:12 PM

Ardfarkle, I like your idea. It protects the author's intellectual property rights and the consumer's property rights also.

I want the unhindered ability to transfer my rights in software from one machine to another, within the confines of reasonable and fair use. If this demand is not met, I purchase a different product or solution. Hence for example, we have no Garmin mapping solutions on our units.

My experiences with Garmin hardware and warranty support have been very good. I support their hardware. Not so with their optional software and its implementation policy.

I hope that you forward your idea to Garmin and that they are responsive to it. In the end I believe such a scheme would enhance their market position and profitablity.

Jim
MagicTogether - Alaska

#17 User is offline   HugoOne 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 09:53 PM

It could be a good idea Ardfarkle but I think Garmin is moving to supply the maps that have locking with the GPS.
Still if I were you I'd put that in an email to Garmin, they do have a history of listening to their customers.

Klemmer & TeddyBearMama, TOPO maps of Garmin also do not require unlocking:
"Only the City Navigator, City Select, BlueChart, Fishing Hot Spots Version 3.00 and 4.00, MetroGuide Australia, and Minnesota LakeMaster ProMap CD/DVD products require unlock."
http://www.garmin.co...faq.jsp?faq=255


OT: Ardfarkle, the activation for Windows XP does not mean that you have to buy a new XP box when you upgrade, you should have called Microsoft (when you do a manual activation you get a phone number) I have upgraded a few computers and they always supplied me a new code when I gave details about the upgrade I did.

#18 User is offline   jotne 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 11:36 PM

Klemmer & TeddyBearMama, on Jan 9 2006, 07:23 PM, said:

After reading the above, I'll just keep on using my Magellan Meridian Platinum with Magellan Mapsend Topos (ver 3.00), with NO UNLOCK CODES. Full US topos and streets. Guess I got it at the right time, huh? Doubt it works with Explorists, and certainly not with Garmins.....

Edit: I DO also agree with 'ardfarkle', but won't hold my breath for Garmin OR Magellan to adopt such a sensible scheme.

How often are your Magellan map updated?
Garmin seems to have a one year lifecycle.


PS there are people who have made a keygen for garmin maps.
They have solved the math pussle.

#19 User is offline   ardfarkle 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:25 AM

Thanks Jim. I have a few other software products that work in a similar manner, where a slight firmware mod is made to add features. Sonicwall does this, and have a few smart dongles for some PCB layout software I use that work the same way. HP, used to do something similar on their HP-UX boxes.

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 10 January 2006 - 06:27 AM


#20 User is offline   ardfarkle 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:27 AM

Quote

HugoOne wrote: It could be a good idea Ardfarkle but I think Garmin is moving to supply the maps that have locking with the GPS.


This would still be the case. The only difference is that you could 'decommission' the maps on you current GPS and re-use them on your new unit. The maps would still be tied to the GPS and this way there would be no way to sell the old unit with the maps installed since to you have to remove the map's ability to work on your old GPS before Garmin will issue a new code to allow them to work on your new GPS.

I just don't think it's reasonable to expect a customer to buy map products that can sometimes equal or surpass the amount paid for the GPS, only to find they will have to purchase them all over again if they decide to upgrade to a new unit. OK, they do allow 2 unit to contain maps, but since this is the case, how do they expect users to sell off one unit and buy another without incurring the entire cost of GPS plus maps once again. All this will do is to cause users to put off the purchase of a new GPS until the maps are either woefully out of date, or new GPS features are too enticing to ignore. In either case this might cause a serious map user to put off a new purchase until absolutely necessary.


Quote

Ardfarkle, the activation for Windows XP does not mean that you have to buy a new XP box when you upgrade, you should have called Microsoft....


That's what I did. I got new activation codes. I was pointing out that although I might be on the phone forever, even Microsoft realizes the need to allow the software to move from box to box.

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 10 January 2006 - 06:29 AM


#21 User is offline   I.R. Geonut 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:35 AM

*edited*

I have nothing intelligent to say :unsure:

This post has been edited by I.R. Geonut: 10 January 2006 - 02:05 PM


#22 User is offline   ardfarkle 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 07:16 AM

Crap, a double post and no delete function...

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 10 January 2006 - 07:18 AM


#23 User is offline   ardfarkle 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 07:17 AM

Hmm... How is that any different than Garmin other than Magellan's map products are licensed for use with just one receiver verses two for Garmin?

http://www.magellang.../ms_compare.asp

#24 User is offline   Klemmer & TeddyBearMama 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:13 AM

Jotne: I'm 95% concerned with Topo Maps, mostly wilderness areas, and they don't change very much (or at all). I don't really know what update schedule Magellan uses.

#25 User is offline   FlyfishermanMike 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:46 AM

You have to look at why this do this. For once a software company has gotten smart and is actually make sure their fine software isn't ripped off. More companies should get with the program. This is one of the few ways to make sure one has to really buy the product to use it. For those of you complaining about it, for once you can blame piracy.

^^ike

#26 User is offline   yeeoldcacher 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 09:35 AM

For those comparing topo, Garmins topo software is not a locked product either, it will work on as many Garmin units as you have.

#27 User is offline   Vlad 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 01:35 PM

Quote

You have to look at why this do this. For once a software company has gotten smart and is actually make sure their fine software isn't ripped off. More companies should get with the program. This is one of the few ways to make sure one has to really buy the product to use it. For those of you complaining about it, for once you can blame piracy.

Well i'm not a pirate - i already own the software. If i continue to SUPPORT Garmin by buying new versions of their hardware why do I have to buy the software again to use it on their new hardware? When i sell that old piece of hardware the software licence i purchased becomes useless and invalid. it's interesting because when i purchased that software I (in capitals) was given the right to use the software - no one else. Then when i upgrade my hardware that point is conveniently forgotten.

And it's a little different than paint don't you think? We're talking about a series of digital bits that could easily be redeployed...

This post has been edited by Vlad: 10 January 2006 - 01:37 PM


#28 User is offline   I.R. Geonut 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 02:14 PM

ardfarkle, on Jan 10 2006, 07:17 AM, said:

Hmm... How is that any different than Garmin other than Magellan's map products are licensed for use with just one receiver verses two for Garmin?

http://www.magellang.../ms_compare.asp

My experience is if I create a map file with GPS #1 I can't transfer that map file with GPS #2 because the serial numbers are different. This keeps people from mass producing map files I think.

In order for me to load the map file on another GPS I need to plug the GPS (GPS #2) in to my PC, record the new serial number, and then load the map file. I can use the software on multiple Magellan GPSs. Which seems fair although this does not prevent you from putting the map file on everyones GPS.

#29 User is offline   tflight 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 05:25 PM

Vlad, on Jan 8 2006, 01:15 AM, said:

maybe garmin will finally bring out that astronomy product i suggested to them about 4 years ago - give me the night sky in my choice of color or red screen, integrate it with an electronic compass, automatically use my global position and the ecompass to determine exactly what's viewable overhead and present it as i look at the heavens my "starmap" shows me the names, the constellations, etc and even incorporate some degree of integration to modern telescopes...

Sounds like the Celestron SkyScout.

#30 User is offline   Stearmandriver 

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:30 PM

Quote

Uh-huh. And you usually put it in the vehicle of your choice when you pump it! Right? Once you use it, do you expect the gas station to fill your other cars, boats, airplanes, jet-skis, lawn mowers, leaf blowers just because you once filled-up you car there?


Uh, no... but I'll bet he expects that, if he chooses to, no one's going to tell him he can't siphon that gas out of it and put it in his car, boat, plane, jet ski, lawn mower etc.

Quote

You have to look at why this do this.  For once a software company has gotten smart and is actually make sure their fine software isn't ripped off.  More companies should get with the program.  This is one of the few ways to make sure one has to really buy the product to use it.  For those of you complaining about it, for once you can blame piracy.


It comes down to media companies (and that's what Garmin is - just like Xerox is really in the business of selling toner cartridges, I guess we know where Garmin makes most of their money!) somehow believing that they have the right to impose restrictions on how you use something you buy from them JUST BECAUSE IT'S DIGITAL. I don't think Subaru has any notions of demanding I keep my car in a garage. I don't think Hitatchi has any notions of telling me I can't view an adult DVD in my player if I choose (my wife on the other hand... :grin: ). So why does Garmin think they can tell us how we can use that software? I mean, if I purchase maps from them, those maps are MINE. I should be able to view them on any device I own, as often as I want, because I BOUGHT THEM. Just like, if I purchase a music CD, that music is MINE. If I want to dump it on my computer so I can listen to it here, that should be fine. If I want it on my mp3 player, that's my right. Obviously, I shouldn't be able to give it to someone else, because they didn't buy it, but it should be mine to do with what I want.

Now, I'm sorry these companies are worried about piracy. Here's the thing, though: that's not my problem! They can attack piracy all they want (and should), but those attacks should in no way interefere with my legitimate use of their product! As Sony found with that XCD debacle, it only leads to problems in the end. (That was the single most heartwarming news story of last year, in my opinon!)

Besides (and I kind of hate to point this out), if you ARE talking piracy, there's always a workaround. In this case, it comes in the form of a fairly simple ap called Garmwacker. It's kind of like gun control advocates claiming that more restrictions will keep weapons out of criminal hands. Silliness. Laws limiting gun ownership only limit the people who abide by the laws!

Anyway, just my $.02. This idea of "limited-use ownership" has always driven me nuts, is all.

This post has been edited by Stearmandriver: 16 January 2006 - 02:30 PM


#31 User is offline   eisenkatze 

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:43 PM

I.R. Geonut, on Jan 10 2006, 06:35 AM, said:

*edited*

I have nothing intelligent to say :grin:

Best quote ever!!! :lol:

It made me ell oh ell.

#32 User is offline   roboknight 

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 09:46 PM

View PostStearmandriver, on Jan 16 2006, 02:30 PM, said:


Besides (and I kind of hate to point this out), if you ARE talking piracy, there's always a workaround. In this case, it comes in the form of a fairly simple ap called Garmwacker. It's kind of like gun control advocates claiming that more restrictions will keep weapons out of criminal hands. Silliness. Laws limiting gun ownership only limit the people who abide by the laws!

Anyway, just my $.02. This idea of "limited-use ownership" has always driven me nuts, is all.


Well, that is what licensing is all about: limited ownership. When you bought the GPS, you paid for the hardware and a license (or two in Garmin's case). Whether its right, or "it sucks", or its wrong doesn't matter. That's what they sell, and that's what you bought. As far as Garmwhacker... it doesn't exist. At least not anywhere I've seen (I checked before posting, just to make sure). Of course that doesn't mean it can't be cracked, because I know it has been. As far as ownership of data goes: fight back. Navteq and Tele Atlas don't have a lock on making data sets, so start an open source data collection project to build a set of open source Garmin maps. The information on the data format is out there. Or better yet, find an existing one and contribute. They are doing that in New Zealand. Someone bought the Navteq data initially (older data set) and they continually update it. With enough contributors (and there could be many if just geocachers contributed, but of course we wouldn't be the only ones), the maps could possibly be made much more accurate than even Navteq (now Nokia) or Tele Atlas (most likely now TomTom) can produce with the fancy equipment with several people averaging co-ordinates until the results were quite accurate. Besides, the data could potentially be corrected far more often. No more of this, "Hey, this isn't Main St!" because the roads haven't been changed in the latest updates yet (and yes, this happens frequently to me... well, I see several errors on the US East Coast because they constantly move roads and develop new ones here... probably because the roads are all screwed up to begin with, but that's another matter).

If you really want to own something, take responsibility for its creation and no one can deny your right to use it any way you wish. Having said all of this, I know there is already an open mapping project.

Check out: http://wiki.openstre...M_Map_On_Garmin

So get started and contribute to it. Make it worth using.

Besides, with only two companies actively compiling map data (the only two I know really doing the heavy lifting on map data was navteq and Tele Atlas, suppliers for most of the GPS world), they don't have to be too competitive. And with Tele Atlas possibly being bought by TomTom, Navteq (Now under Nokia) can charge all outdoors to Garmin & Magellan both, which likely won't make your GPS maps any cheaper in the future (unless you maybe have a TomTom).

#33 User is offline   JSWilson64 

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 10:26 AM

This issue has always elicited several responses in me:
1) Paternalistic: You have free will, don't buy Garmin if you don't like their policies, etc...
2) Indignant: Dang straight! Why can't we keep our maps if we buy a new GPS!!!!!
3) Pirate/Hax0r: Well, if everyone here would post their unit serial # and the unlock code Garmin gave 'em, someone could decipher the algorithm and code a keygen. And it'd only be used by people who have legally purchased a Garmin product and want to move it to a new Garmin product. Right :anicute:
4) Realist: I just use MetroGuide bought off of eBay, and use MetroWizzz to add autorouting. I know that doesn't work for products that need updating (like marine charts), but it works for me.

In the end, I'm probably most like #1 - if it really gets to bothering me, I'll have to switch to another brand. If I were single and only had to answer for myself, I'd probably try (harder at) hacking the unlock code. But once you have kids, you start thinking about the example you set... "Gee, Dad, those new maps are cool!" "Sure are, son, and they didn't cost a cent, 'cuz I haX0rd it!!"

I've tried another platform - a Bluetooth GPS with a Palm PDA. It sucked. The available products for that platform didn't do what I wanted, and didn't behave as I wanted them to. I thought about coding my own application, then I found another job and my free time went away. Maybe it would have been different with a Windows-based handheld - there were lots more software offerings, but the PDAs cost considerably more.

#34 User is offline   oxothuk 

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 06:30 PM

View Postroboknight, on Nov 26 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

Well, that is what licensing is all about: limited ownership.
I think the problem is that the licensing makes it too "limited" to be thought of as "ownership" at all, in the common sense meaning of the word.
The steep pricing for these maps also makes buyers feel entitled to more ownership than the license terms are written to allow. And of course it's inconsistent with the way licensing works for most other software or games, which isn't tightly bound to a specific device.

Finally, the whole scheme of "unlock codes" and "mother, may I" is overly intrusive and frankly offensive to me as a customer. I'm not well enough organized to keep track of all these little codes, and I don't like companies that take advantage of that. I wouldn't buy a toaster that had a key to keep track of - would you?

#35 User is offline   Motorcycle_Mama 

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 06:56 PM

Yes, but a toaster doesn't cost thousands (probably more like tens or hundreds of thousands if not more) of dollars to create.

I personally don't have a problem with the unlock codes because far too many people have absolutely no qualms about copying software and violating the licensing agreements of any kind of software.

I fully appreciate the complexity involved in obtaining, creating and maintaining the maps and the map database. I believe that they have a right to protect it.

They likely would not have to do it this way if people would respect the license. As it is, you hear about people loading the maps that don't require unlock codes to everyone's GPS unit (son, daughter, father, brother, brother-in-law, friends and anyone else that may come along.) To me this is plainly wrong. But people still do it every day.

This post has been edited by Motorcycle_Mama: 27 November 2007 - 06:56 PM


#36 User is offline   xxgg 

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 07:20 PM

Well than...

Is there a way to unlock/lock/unregister/uninstall? the software with your current GPS unit? So that you can can install it on your new GPS unit?

This way, we may not be able to use two GPS unit with same software at same time but atleast we can transfer the license to other single unit.

Right?

Is this not possible?

What if you want to sell your Map than? You can't? Because it'll be already tied into your own GPS unit?

There gotta be a way, right?

#37 User is offline   kuna_matata 

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 06:36 AM

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With Garmin, isn't there two choices? Either CD-ROM or preloaded cards.

1) CD-ROMs are unlocked to a single GPSr, but you can make multiple copies and combine with other maps.
2) Preloaded cards can not be copied or combined, but will work on any GPSr.

You can either make copies or transfer, but you can't do both.

If you plan on upgrading the GPSr in the future and want to keep your maps shouldn't you just buy pre-loaded cards?

#38 User is offline   JSWilson64 

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 08:00 AM

View Postkuna_matata, on Dec 28 2007, 06:36 AM, said:

If you plan on upgrading the GPSr in the future and want to keep your maps shouldn't you just buy pre-loaded cards?

Sure, if you don't want to be able to use the maps on your PC to plan routes. Or to be able to make a backup copy.

#39 User is offline   Styk 

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 10:14 AM

Not to endorse copying software. I don't have a great knowledge of the corporate world but I can understand that, 1. They have R&D costs. 2. They need to make enough to cover that and other expenses related to the production of their product. 3. Its generally desirable to make a profit while doing the first 2 points.

Now, how does one decide how much profit? Now my lack of knowledge will astound some but not all I suspect. In a perfect world where copying software doesn't exist, i suspect profits are controlled by sales, i.e. too much profit/unit would suppress future sales.

Enter the real world where copying and hacking exist and is widely supported. Right or wrong, it is the reality of the times.

How does this impact the product pricing? I'd like to think with the reality of the times, that whoever decides how much profit margin/product doesn't take it out on the legitimate customers, and further that maybe by keeping the profit margin reasonable may even grow their loyal customer base thus enabling further R&D.

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