[Snoogans]

I got a call from my friend Duke the other day. He was calling to wish me well on a recent challenge I've been dealing with and just before we hung up he mentioned something that concerned me about one, or possibly two of my caches....

The caches in question are Row versus Wade and Banjo Music aka Why is Daddy Crying? on terracaching.com.

Duke is the land owner where these caches are placed and the father of my oldest and closest friend. The fact that he mentioned it in passing shows that it was of little concern to him, but this is what he said....

Sometime after the first of the year his new neighbor approached him about some activity on his (Duke's) property. Evidently this guy had seen a couple folks cross the fence from his OWN property onto Duke's and had gone to investigate. The two guys were locals who were out geocaching, but this neighbor (whom Jeff Foxworthy may have mentioned in his writings) didn't buy the story and decided to tag along the rest of the way.....

If you get my drift, he MAY have been (almost CERTAINLY was) packing. Duke didn't KNOW for sure, but he also got the feeling that he gave these boys a hard time too.

No one has logged RvW since 12/15/05, but I personally know the two people who logged Banjo Music on 12/31 and they didn't encounter anyone.....

I'm thinking that I won't archive the caches unless there's another incident and Duke doesn't seem to be concerned at all....

I guess my question of discussion is; should I do anything MORE to discourage folks from NOT hunting this cache properly, or have I done enough???.... I don't want to see anyone get hurt because they are out to win a Darwin Award. Take a look at the cache pages and give an opinion. I'll make changes if they make sense and could prevent another encounter with Billybob.

Ironicly THIS is my warning on Banjo Music:


READ THIS CACHE PAGE CAREFULLY IF'N YA DON'T WANNA SQUEAL LIKE A PIG!

This post has been edited by Keystone: 25 February 2006 - 06:24 PM

[Bill & Tammy]

In regards to Row versus Wade, a cache that is generating such verbose logs must stay available, guess just make the warnings about where one shouldn't wander very clear on the description. But definately this one is a keeper.

This post has been edited by Bill & Tammy: 25 February 2006 - 07:33 AM

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

When you have people who just load the GPSr with the coordinates and don't bother to read the cache page, there is not much you can do to prevent an "Incident".

Anyways, Darwin needs more applicants to apply for his award!


John

[Renegade Knight]

You are pretty clear on your cache pages. Those who cache bareback (coords only) get to excercise the same judgment they have always had to do, and live up to the consequences of their actions like they already have to do.

[CoyoteRed]

I'm actually quite surprised at the number of geocachers who don't read the cache page or follow the directions if they do.

One would think you've given more than enough directions on the cache page, but if you're still concerned archive this one and create a new one that is a multi. The only way to slow down folks going in from the wrong direction is force them to go the way you want them to go. A multi or a puzzle is the only way that can happen.

But, only you and your friend can really answer the question of whether you want folks to have a chance encounter with his neighbor. Besides, now that the neighbor knows what is going on, does he have a problem with it?

If it doesn't adversely affect your friend, I'd leave it.

[sept1c_tank]

Wow! That sounds like my kind of night cache!

Don't archive it. (Maaaybe) Add to the cache page that a certain neighbor is very proud of his piece.
If I ever get to geocache in Texas, I want to do this one (with you).

(Maybe we can get that crazy dude known as 9Key to go with us.)

This post has been edited by sept1c_tank: 25 February 2006 - 08:56 AM

[Snoogans]

sept1c_tank, on Feb 25 2006, 08:53 AM, said:

Wow! That sounds like my kind of night cache!

Don't archive it. (Maaaybe) Add to the cache page that a certain neighbor is very proud of his piece.
If I ever get to geocache in Texas, I want to do this one (with you).

(Maybe we can get that crazy dude known as 9Key to go with us.)

We don't KNOW for sure what happened and the cachers in question haven't signed the log.

I do have a couple Jeeps to put in RvW, but it may be several weeks before I can check the logs to see who was there. BTW- On my last visit, I noticed that over 60% of the logs were not entered online.

[BadAndy]

From the topic title, I expected to hear about someone that was escorted to a cache at gunpoint.

Instead, all this turns out to be is a story about a couple of cachers that were escorted to a cache after trespassing onto private property by the landowner.

There is not really anything that would indicate any of them were armed, other than the landowner apparently looked like Jeff Foxworthy's cousin.

The cache page looks like it's pretty clear regarding the proper method of approach. Since there has been no complaints by either the landowner or the cachers involved, referencing the dangers of being held at gunpoint on the cache page seems a bit extreme.

[Snoogans]

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 10:32 AM, said:

From the topic title, I expected to hear about someone that was escorted to a cache at gunpoint.

Instead, all this turns out to be is a story about a couple of cachers that were escorted to a cache after trespassing onto private property by the landowner.

There is not really anything that would indicate any of them were armed, other than the landowner apparently looked like Jeff Foxworthy's cousin.

The cache page looks like it's pretty clear regarding the proper method of approach. Since there has been no complaints by either the landowner or the cachers involved, referencing the dangers of being held at gunpoint on the cache page seems a bit extreme.

Let me say this. I was trying to be as nice as possible.

The caches in question are in verrrry RURAL Texas farm/ranch country. ALL of the land in the area has cattle/game on it.

When you go to investigate unknown two-legged visitors on YOUR/your neighbor's property in those parts, you generally don't carry a basket of muffins with you.

I understood Duke's meaning when he suggested that his neighbor might not have been too friendly until he was shown that their story was legit..... The REAL story is yet to be posted. I hope it comes out eventually...

[Team GPSaxophone]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 11:44 AM, said:

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 10:32 AM, said:

From the topic title, I expected to hear about someone that was escorted to a cache at gunpoint.

Instead, all this turns out to be is a story about a couple of cachers that were escorted to a cache after trespassing onto private property by the landowner.

There is not really anything that would indicate any of them were armed, other than the landowner apparently looked like Jeff Foxworthy's cousin.

The cache page looks like it's pretty clear regarding the proper method of approach. Since there has been no complaints by either the landowner or the cachers involved, referencing the dangers of being held at gunpoint on the cache page seems a bit extreme.

Let me say this. I was trying to be as nice as possible.

The caches in question are in verrrry RURAL Texas farm/ranch country. ALL of the land in the area has cattle/game on it.

When you go to investigate unknown two-legged visitors on YOUR/your neighbor's property in those parts, you generally don't carry a basket of muffins with you.

I understood Duke's meaning when he suggested that his neighbor might not have been too friendly until he was shown that their story was legit..... The REAL story is yet to be posted. I hope it comes out eventually...

<makes note to NOT bring Snoogans any muffins>

[BadAndy]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 11:44 AM, said:

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 10:32 AM, said:

From the topic title, I expected to hear about someone that was escorted to a cache at gunpoint.

Instead, all this turns out to be is a story about a couple of cachers that were escorted to a cache after trespassing onto private property by the landowner.

There is not really anything that would indicate any of them were armed, other than the landowner apparently looked like Jeff Foxworthy's cousin.

The cache page looks like it's pretty clear regarding the proper method of approach. Since there has been no complaints by either the landowner or the cachers involved, referencing the dangers of being held at gunpoint on the cache page seems a bit extreme.

Let me say this. I was trying to be as nice as possible.

The caches in question are in verrrry RURAL Texas farm/ranch country. ALL of the land in the area has cattle/game on it.

When you go to investigate unknown two-legged visitors on YOUR/your neighbor's property in those parts, you generally don't carry a basket of muffins with you.

I understood Duke's meaning when he suggested that his neighbor might not have been too friendly until he was shown that their story was legit..... The REAL story is yet to be posted. I hope it comes out eventually...

You should contact the offended landowner. If it's true that he has/will escort cachers at gunpoint, I'd say an archival is prudent. Especially if the most obvious approach for someone that didn't read the cache page takes them across his property. Many cachers also carry guns, especially in rural areas. It would be very easy for one or the other to react with a pull of the trigger when confronted with the end of a barrel.

[sept1c_tank]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 01:44 PM, said:

...The REAL story is yet to be posted. I hope it comes out eventually...

Me too. I hate these serial topics, where you have to wait to see who done it.

[Snoogans]

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

You should contact the offended landowner.

No doubt I'll get to meet him on my next visit. Duke said he explained it to him as best he could. I don't think his mind has migrated on over to this century though.....

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

Especially if the most obvious approach for someone that didn't read the cache page takes them across his property.

Only if you can't read the title and the first few words of the cache. Row or Wade... those ARE the choices.

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

Many cachers also carry guns, especially in rural areas. It would be very easy for one or the other to react with a pull of the trigger when confronted with the end of a barrel.

Any cacher who caches with a drawn gun is gonna run into Murphy before too long..... ANYONE jumping fences with a drawn gun deserves a bullet that gets there before the sound does....

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 25 February 2006 - 12:33 PM

[clearpath]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 07:21 AM, said:

Ironicly THIS is my warning on Banjo Music:


READ THIS CACHE PAGE CAREFULLY IF'N YA DON'T WANNA SQUEAL LIKE A PIG!

Why drag my family into this discussion ... So, they like fat guys that squeal like farm animals. There's worse things ...

This post has been edited by Keystone: 25 February 2006 - 06:25 PM

[BadAndy]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 01:31 PM, said:

Any cacher who caches with a drawn gun is gonna run into Murphy before too long..... ANYONE jumping fences with a drawn gun deserves a bullet that gets there before the sound does....

"escorted at gunpoint" implies they were looking at a drawn gun being held by the landowner. If I was out caching and some guy yells "hey you" and points a gun at me...I might be inclined to draw my gun as well.

My point was...if this landowner is in the habit of escorting people around at the point of a gun...things could get deadly in a big hurry, and no cache is worth getting shot over.

[Snoogans]

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 01:31 PM, said:

Any cacher who caches with a drawn gun is gonna run into Murphy before too long..... ANYONE jumping fences with a drawn gun deserves a bullet that gets there before the sound does....

"escorted at gunpoint" implies they were looking at a drawn gun being held by the landowner. If I was out caching and some guy yells "hey you" and points a gun at me...I might be inclined to draw my gun as well.

My point was...if this landowner is in the habit of escorting people around at the point of a gun...things could get deadly in a big hurry, and no cache is worth getting shot over.

Really....

If you were knowingly treaspassing to take the easy way to a cache, you'd go all wild wild west on a person who has the drop on you.....? Someone who btw, actually belongs there. This wouldn't be self defense. It would be suicide and the land owner would be within his rights to fire upon you.

Clearly, this gives me pause. If you would do it then certainly others might. I may need to archive these caches after all....

[BadAndy]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 07:26 PM, said:

Really....

If you were knowingly treaspassing to take the easy way to a cache, you'd go all wild wild west on a person who has the drop on you.....? Someone who btw, actually belongs there. This wouldn't be self defense. It would be suicide and the land owner would be within his rights to fire upon you.

Clearly, this gives me pause. If you would do it then certainly others might. I may need to archive these caches after all....

Oh cmon Snoogans, that isn't what I said.

First off, theres been no indication that the cachers even knew they were trespassing from the little you've told us, just that they crossed a fence. I'd be willing to bet that most of us have crossed a fence while caching. Now you're implying that they knew full well they were tresspassing and the landowner was just protecting his property.

Second, All I said was that if I was out caching and someone confronted me with a gun I might be inclined to protect myself.

From that you inferred that I would, while knowing tresspassing, throw down on a law abiding landowner.


You posted that you'd like some feedback regarding the archival of a cache that you were considering, due to some hillbilly harrassing some local cachers at gunpoint. All I did was give you some.

Lighten up dood.

[Snoogans]

BadAndy, on Feb 25 2006, 06:41 PM, said:

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 07:26 PM, said:

Really....

If you were knowingly treaspassing to take the easy way to a cache, you'd go all wild wild west on a person who has the drop on you.....? Someone who btw, actually belongs there. This wouldn't be self defense. It would be suicide and the land owner would be within his rights to fire upon you.

Clearly, this gives me pause. If you would do it then certainly others might. I may need to archive these caches after all....

Oh cmon Snoogans, that isn't what I said.

First off, theres been no indication that the cachers even knew they were trespassing from the little you've told us, just that they crossed a fence. I'd be willing to bet that most of us have crossed a fence while caching. Now you're implying that they knew full well they were tresspassing and the landowner was just protecting his property.

Second, All I said was that if I was out caching and someone confronted me with a gun I might be inclined to protect myself.

From that you inferred that I would, while knowing tresspassing, throw down on a law abiding landowner.


You posted that you'd like some feedback regarding the archival of a cache that you were considering, due to some hillbilly harrassing some local cachers at gunpoint. All I did was give you some.

Lighten up dood.

I don't have time to fully respond....

I know of only ONE situation. Not a pattern of harassment.

In THIS instance....When given the information "THIS CACHE IS ON PRIVATE LAND. Please respect the land owner’s wishes and enter his property ONLY from the river," and then going into the area, one would HAVE to be knowingly treaspassing across other's land to get to the cache without getting their feet wet or launching a boat.

I wasn't looking for input on what my thread title implies. I'm looking for constructive input on how to more clearly illustrate that it would be prudent to follow the rules if they wish to hunt this cache.....

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 25 February 2006 - 10:14 PM

[Confucius' Cat]

The reaction of adjacent landowners is a serious concern for any cache, whether on public or private property, but is especially relevant to caches placed on one's own land with nearby neighbors. Personally, if I had a cache near a neighbor that did not want people prowling around, I would either get the neighbor to understand what's going on and agree to be a little more forgiving or I would archive it.

In fact, I probably would not have placed it without letting the neighbors know about it.

Ultimately, you are still going to have some that either don't read the cache page or don't care and they will trespass- especially if the neighbor's land is not posted.

You might ask the neighbor to post his land, perhaps specifically mentioning "geocachers do not enter here- use path over there -->" and then you also post a "geocachers welcome" sign at the appropriate entry point. Don't know how well it would work, but it might be worth a try.

I would be willing to bet there are a lot of cachers that do not read all the cache pages for which they search. As others posted, that is their responsibility, but it is still something to be considered if there is a known problem that could get very serious for those who choose to be ignorant.

Frankly, because there are so many caches, I rarely take the time to read cache pages thoroughly to decide which ones I want to hunt. When I do, I have little time left to cache.

The fact that a lot of my caching is "spur-of-the-moment" is why I have raised the topic of an icon to filter caches on private property from my PQ lists. Such an icon would provide a means for the "coordinate plug-and-players" to avoid these situations. Until that icon is implemented (when hell freezes over?) there is no easy way to ensure that seekers are forewarned. Even then there is no certainty.

This post has been edited by Confuse-A-Cat: 25 February 2006 - 08:51 PM

[Snoogans]

Confuse-A-Cat, on Feb 25 2006, 08:49 PM, said:

The reaction of adjacent landowners is a serious concern for any cache, whether on public or private property, but is especially relevant to caches placed on one's own land with nearby neighbors. Personally, if I had a cache near a neighbor that did not want people prowling around, I would either get the neighbor to understand what's going on and agree to be a little more forgiving or I would archive it.

In fact, I probably would not have placed it without letting the neighbors know about it.

As I stated in the OP, it is a new neighbor who moved into a run down trailor that I had previously considered abandoned.

When the cache was placed in 2003, the only other neighbors in sight were also family members of Duke's, so this is a very recent development.

The River belongs to no one. It is a boundry line that is often used by locals for fishing if not other forms of recreation.... The bottom land there is much lower and floods, so no cacher who obeys the law would EVER be seen by neighbors who are almost a mile away on higher ground UNLESS they were knowingly shortcutting... That is the only thing that would bring you into view of a house. It is heavily wooded along the river..... I honestly thought my cache description was fool proof until a couple of fools proved me wrong...

[Red Eye Rebels]

I'd sure hate to see these go away, they are near the top of my must-do list......I guess I need to move them to the top of my "do soon or never do" list. Sorry such great caches got ruined by an idiot, I know you put alot into them Snoogans.

This post has been edited by Red Eye Rebels: 26 February 2006 - 04:32 AM

[halffast]

I had an encounter on private land last summer.I read the cache disciption which stated the land owners were the hiders parents.This cache was way out in the tullies.As we got to within 300 feet of the cache and needed to leave are truck to bushwack a jeep pulled up with an off duty sherrif at the wheel.Aperently he was a family frien that had just been visiting them.He asked what we were doing so we tried to explain geo-caching but he just plainly suggested we turn around and leave.We did as he said.After that I decided I would print out all the cache pages and have them with me as proof I had permission to be there.I emaild the cache owner to see what he would say but he never replied back.Needless to say I have never attepted that cache again.

[The Canning Clan]

Wow...wish there were some exciting caches around here!! Snoogans...you can't please everyone but concensus seems to be that these are viable caches, so I would leave'em be.
Sure wish I could come down and hunt them there ones out....SQUEEL LIKE A PIG BOY!!!!!!!

[Team Cotati]

I have read thru this a couple of times and I have a question: Is one way to intrepret this placement that you knowingly placed a cache next door to property that might be inadvertantly crossed by geocachers and that said property is monitored/patrolled by a land owner who is known to carry a firearm and who doesn't take kindly to people accidently encroaching upon his property? Can this possibly be correct? Is this land marked with an appropriate number of 'no treaspassing' signs or whatever?

I would rate placing such a cache as slightly wreckless.

[Confucius' Cat]

halffast, on Feb 26 2006, 11:38 AM, said:

I had an encounter on private land last summer.I read the cache disciption which stated the land owners were the hiders parents.This cache was way out in the tullies.As we got to within 300 feet of the cache and needed to leave are truck to bushwack a jeep pulled up with an off duty sherrif at the wheel.Aperently he was a family frien that had just been visiting them.He asked what we were doing so we tried to explain geo-caching but he just plainly suggested we turn around and leave.We did as he said.After that I decided I would print out all the cache pages and have them with me as proof I had permission to be there.I emaild the cache owner to see what he would say but he never replied back.Needless to say I have never attepted that cache again.

I had one like that myself recently. There was no "hostile encounter" or anything like that, but I am pretty sure I was on the wrong land approaching the cache from a slightly wrong angle due to my misreading the cache page instructions. The person I talked to at the site had no idea about anything (they were workers trimming trees) but I could see they were uncomfortable with my being there, so I left.

The owner emailed me a personal letter of permission, but I still wonder if I was really where I was supposed to be. Maybe someday I'll get back to it and log the find- it is a shame to waste the owners personal attention.

No amount of permission or paperwork is worthwhile if you are on the wrong land. IMHO these private land caches are mostly too risky to hunt. I avoid them. But as to whether they should exist? Let it be and let the buyer beware.

[JMBIndy]

I may only be a Neocacher, but I am good at reading and following directions.

I read your posting for RvW and all the directions seem quite clear. It's also obvious that others are thrilled with going after it, so I'd suggest keeping it.

If individuals want to try and get it without following directions, then they deserve whatever happens. Who knows, it could make for a good movie.

[Team Cotati]

I hadn't considered the movie potential. In light of which, I withdraw my question. "Cache on Garth"!!

This post has been edited by Team Cotati: 26 February 2006 - 04:06 PM

[BigWhiteTruck]

Just a thought I came up with to ensure that epople are actually reading the description.

Post the coordinates right smack dab in the middle of the nearest public road, then in the description, mention that the actual cache is 1324 feet away at bearing 142 degrees, or whatever the actual numbers may be. That way, all the people who read the description will be able to find it, and they also will have read the part about the river. All the people who don't read the description will simply drive to a certain point in the road, park, and then search around in the ditch for an hour, but who cares? Then they'll log a "I didn't find it, but I was there!" Found log, and you can laugh and delete it!

[Bluejaytoo]

I'm confused as to why there's an issue here. As CoyoteRed said, make it a puzzle or multi. I have a cache that, if you approach it from the easy direction at the bottom of the hill, you'll go right past a cabin in the middle of the woods inhabited by a local guy and his large dog. I don't want people going that way, so I encourage them to approach the cache from the top of the hill, which is my buddy's house on a dead-end street with a trailhead. So the only coordinates I have listed are those at the end of the street. When they get there, they have to get my buddy's house number and use it to get the final coords. So far only one person has taken the low road.

[Confucius' Cat]

BigWhiteTruck, on Feb 27 2006, 09:42 AM, said:

Just a thought I came up with to ensure that epople are actually reading the description.

Post the coordinates right smack dab in the middle of the nearest public road, then in the description, mention that the actual cache is 1324 feet away at bearing 142 degrees, or whatever the actual numbers may be. That way, all the people who read the description will be able to find it, and they also will have read the part about the river. All the people who don't read the description will simply drive to a certain point in the road, park, and then search around in the ditch for an hour, but who cares? Then they'll log a "I didn't find it, but I was there!" Found log, and you can laugh and delete it!

Better yet, simply post the real coordinates in the cache description.

I have been doing a lot of caches from my computer screen measurements without taking GPS out of car. I have found that anything much over 300 feet is pretty tough to reckon. I have had little success, especially with caches in the woods, using this method with over 300' distance from the coordinates.

Now if we just had an icon so I could ignore it so i wouldn't be the one looking in the ditch...

Confucius' Cat say: "Man who hunt cache in middle of road has Dodge truck"

[clearpath]

Property owners do have a right to protect themselves and their property. They do not have the right to draw guns on people simply walking across their property.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

clearpath, on Feb 27 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

Property owners do have a right to protect themselves and their property. They do not have the right to draw guns on people simply walking across their property.

That depends on where you live....

Shirley~

[Jeep_Dog]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 09:21 AM, said:

If you get my drift, he MAY have been (almost CERTAINLY was) packing. Duke didn't KNOW for sure, but he also got the feeling that he gave these boys a hard time too.

Bah. Great story, and quite amusing, but that ain't nothin'! I have to swing by this cache every few days just to ensure that it is not blown up. Also, rest assured, everyone who visits this one, and the folks who inhabit the area, are all packin'. Now, do your hillbillies still sound all that bad?

[Team Cotati]

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 02:22 AM, said:

clearpath, on Feb 27 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

Property owners do have a right to protect themselves and their property. They do not have the right to draw guns on people simply walking across their property.

That depends on where you live....

Shirley~

Hi Shirley~. Would you mind expanding upon that point?

This post has been edited by Team Cotati: 28 February 2006 - 07:17 AM

[Vinny & Sue Team]

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 25 2006, 07:34 AM, said:

When you have people who just load the GPSr with the coordinates and don't bother to read the cache page, there is not much you can do to prevent an "Incident".

Anyways, Darwin needs more applicants to apply for his award!

John

This matter of not reading or ignoring cache listing page instructions, warnings and caveats is unfortunately happening more and more nowadays, and amazes me! I almost wonder if all electronic downloads of waypoints may eventually need to be disabled just to prevent such idiocy.

In any case, Snoogans, you may wish to add some more warnings near the top of your Row vs Wade listing page at geocaching.com, in large bold font! This may help somewhat!

[Vinny & Sue Team]

Snoogans, on Feb 25 2006, 10:07 PM, said:

Confuse-A-Cat, on Feb 25 2006, 08:49 PM, said:

The reaction of adjacent landowners is a serious concern for any cache, whether on public or private property, but is especially relevant to caches placed on one's own land with nearby neighbors. Personally, if I had a cache near a neighbor that did not want people prowling around, I would either get the neighbor to understand what's going on and agree to be a little more forgiving or I would archive it.

In fact, I probably would not have placed it without letting the neighbors know about it.

As I stated in the OP, it is a new neighbor who moved into a run down trailor that I had previously considered abandoned.

When the cache was placed in 2003, the only other neighbors in sight were also family members of Duke's, so this is a very recent development.

The River belongs to no one. It is a boundry line that is often used by locals for fishing if not other forms of recreation.... The bottom land there is much lower and floods, so no cacher who obeys the law would EVER be seen by neighbors who are almost a mile away on higher ground UNLESS they were knowingly shortcutting... That is the only thing that would bring you into view of a house. It is heavily wooded along the river..... I honestly thought my cache description was fool proof until a couple of fools proved me wrong...

Sad how stupid some cache seekers can get. I permanently disabled a potentially wonderful wilderness hide here, located at a beautiful rock overlook, because of the real possibilty that some cachers would take the low road and cut across the private and posted property of a homeowner who just built a home on a nearby private plot.

I saw a T-shirt on a guy while I was in Houston this weekend, browsing in a Russian grocery store near Southwest; his T-shirt read:
"You can try all you want to make a thing foolproof, but they will always invent a smarter fool!"

[Snoogans]

I'm considering moving the waypoint to a public road and posting the coord (written out, not just numbers) among the warnings. I had never considered anything like that before posting this thread.

Thanks for all the replies so far...

[Vinny & Sue Team]

Snoogans, on Feb 28 2006, 08:20 AM, said:

I'm considering moving the waypoint to a public road and posting the coord (written out, not just numbers) among the warnings. I had never considered anything like that before posting this thread.

Thanks for all the replies so far...

I think that this precaution is a good idea! Believe me, I could tell you some real doozies of stories from around here! Some folks actually brag in their logs for caches with ratings of 3/3 or more that they never even read the listing page and that they thus either endangered their lives or trespassed, or found a cache that had been disabled for three months. Scary!

[blackjack65]

Vinny & Sue Team, on Feb 28 2006, 11:48 AM, said:

...found a cache that had been disabled for three months. Scary!

Scary indeed that the cache would not have been retrieved when it was disabled!

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Team Cotati, on Feb 28 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 02:22 AM, said:

clearpath, on Feb 27 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

Property owners do have a right to protect themselves and their property. They do not have the right to draw guns on people simply walking across their property.

That depends on where you live....

Shirley~

Hi Shirley~. Would you mind expanding upon that point?

While deer hunting in Wyoming we found out, according to our hosts, that in Wyoming, the land owner has the right to not only point a weapon, but to use it.

Shirley~

[Team Cotati]

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 12:27 PM, said:

Team Cotati, on Feb 28 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 02:22 AM, said:

clearpath, on Feb 27 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

Property owners do have a right to protect themselves and their property. They do not have the right to draw guns on people simply walking across their property.

That depends on where you live....

Shirley~

Hi Shirley~. Would you mind expanding upon that point?

While deer hunting in Wyoming we found out, according to our hosts, that in Wyoming, the land owner has the right to not only point a weapon, but to use it.

Shirley~

I suppose that we will have to assume that in Wyoming that that is called justifiable homicide? Would that sound right Shirley~ ?

[Renegade Knight]

Snoogans, on Feb 28 2006, 09:20 AM, said:

I'm considering moving the waypoint to a public road and posting the coord (written out, not just numbers) among the warnings. I had never considered anything like that before posting this thread.

Thanks for all the replies so far...

I also like this idea. People will go the the waypoint regardless. By having that in the road then saying that to find the cache you have to "do something else" at least the ones who won't "do something else" per the cache instructions will look around the road where it minimizes any issues.

[budd-rdc]

Team Cotati, on Mar 1 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 12:27 PM, said:

Team Cotati, on Feb 28 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 02:22 AM, said:

clearpath, on Feb 27 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

Property owners do have a right to protect themselves and their property. They do not have the right to draw guns on people simply walking across their property.

That depends on where you live....

Shirley~

Hi Shirley~. Would you mind expanding upon that point?

While deer hunting in Wyoming we found out, according to our hosts, that in Wyoming, the land owner has the right to not only point a weapon, but to use it.

Shirley~

I suppose that we will have to assume that in Wyoming that that is called justifiable homicide? Would that sound right Shirley~ ?

Off topic: I'm sure you guys followed up on the story after it made the news. It's never a good idea to mess with someone's mind when all parties are armed, especially if a person is an ex-military. No lawyer that I know of can bring back the dead.

This post has been edited by budd-rdc: 01 March 2006 - 11:31 AM

[Team Cotati]

budd-rdc, on Mar 1 2006, 11:30 AM, said:

Team Cotati, on Mar 1 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 12:27 PM, said:

Team Cotati, on Feb 28 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

2oldfarts (the rockhounders), on Feb 28 2006, 02:22 AM, said:

clearpath, on Feb 27 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

Property owners do have a right to protect themselves and their property. They do not have the right to draw guns on people simply walking across their property.

That depends on where you live....

Shirley~

Hi Shirley~. Would you mind expanding upon that point?

While deer hunting in Wyoming we found out, according to our hosts, that in Wyoming, the land owner has the right to not only point a weapon, but to use it.

Shirley~

I suppose that we will have to assume that in Wyoming that that is called justifiable homicide? Would that sound right Shirley~ ?

Off topic: I'm sure you guys followed up on the story after it made the news. It's never a good idea to mess with someone's mind when all parties are armed, especially if a person is an ex-military. No lawyer that I know of can bring back the dead.

What story?

[Confucius' Cat]

Snoogans, on Feb 28 2006, 11:20 AM, said:

I'm considering moving the waypoint to a public road and posting the coord (written out, not just numbers) among the warnings. I had never considered anything like that before posting this thread.

Thanks for all the replies so far...

I, too, think that is a good way to go. Pick a lamppost in the middle of nowhere and perhaps have a stcker made to look like a "call b4 u dig" sticker (Cafe Press) and ROT13 the instructions?

[Snoogans]

Confucius' Cat, on Mar 4 2006, 02:42 PM, said:

Snoogans, on Feb 28 2006, 11:20 AM, said:

I'm considering moving the waypoint to a public road and posting the coord (written out, not just numbers) among the warnings. I had never considered anything like that before posting this thread.

Thanks for all the replies so far...

I, too, think that is a good way to go. Pick a lamppost in the middle of nowhere and perhaps have a stcker made to look like a "call b4 u dig" sticker (Cafe Press) and ROT13 the instructions?

Dude, Ya gotta quit changin' your name...

Naaa, I'll just move the waypoint. No light poles in B.F.E.

[sept1c_tank]

Snoogans, on Mar 4 2006, 05:46 PM, said:

...Dude (Confucius' Cat) , Ya gotta quit changin' your name...

I'm confused; you're confused; he, she or it is a confused Confucius' Cat; this is worse than avatar switching!

[Monkey Toes]

DOn't do anything to it! I live in Victoria and have wanted to get this cache ever since I started, but have never had a good time to get out the canoe and go out there. Wait till I log it and then you can do whatever you want to it.

[Confucius' Cat]

sept1c_tank, on Mar 4 2006, 06:05 PM, said:

Snoogans, on Mar 4 2006, 05:46 PM, said:

...Dude (Confucius' Cat) , Ya gotta quit changin' your name...

I'm confused; you're confused; he, she or it is a confused Confucius' Cat; this is worse than avatar switching!

Confucius' Cat say: "Avatar change come soon"