[Snoogans]

From the gc.com faq page:

Quote

What are the rules in Geocaching?

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

1. Take something from the cache

2. Leave something in the cache

3. Write about it in the logbook

Where you place a cache is up to you.

Let’s discuss the common themes that lead to angst here in the forums, at events, and between hiders and finders. (Please add to the list. There are far more misconceptions than I have time to list.)

Feel free to disagree, but this is how I see it:

The Basics

Geocaching boiled down is just high tech hide and seek. It’s nothing more or less.

To play, you or someone else hides some sort of container (usually, but not always) with a log book of some kind using a GPS receiver. The hider is expected to do so while staying within the guidelines set by geocaching.com to get their cache listed here.

A volunteer reviewer will publish or deny the cache based on the guidelines.

Then comes the fun part… A finder chooses to hunt the cache. If they find it, they sign the log book and if the cache has trade items, they make a trade if they so choose. The finder then has the choice of writing about their adventure online, but they don’t have to.


The Basic Misconceptions:

Most of the misconceptions I see with regard to geocaching seem to come from a sense of entitlement from both hider’s and finders and no small amount of unrealistic expectation.

Hiding: Some folks think that the hider owes them some sort of adventure that they couldn’t get at home on the couch eating popcorn and watching a movie, or playing a video game. (I.E. A beautiful view, a fantastic location… In short, something they couldn’t find doing any other activity.) The hider in fact doesn’t OWE you anything except to be honest in hiding a cache within the posted guidelines. That’s it. Many caches exist to do nothing more than to give the hider one more hide number and the finder one find number and there’s nothing at all wrong with that as long as the guidelines are followed.

Finding: Some cache owners are very proud of the effort, time, and expense that they put into their caches and rightly so. However, the finder’s online account of their find is NOT interest paid on the hider’s expense. The hider is not, in fact, owed anything except a decent attempt to rehide their cache after you found it. They chose to hide a cache as a means to participate. That’s all. The fact that folks do participate in finding it should be enough. Even if a cache merits long descriptive logs from most finders, it’s unfair to hold every finder to that standard unless there’s a clearly stated logging requirement (for whatever reason) which is the owner’s prerogative.

Trackables:

A travel bug/released geocoin/Jeep is just a thing that has been cast out upon the geocaching continuum to fend for itself. It is also a hapless pawn to chance. It is private property that has been placed in public trust. Whatever is attached to the TB tag belongs to the TB owner and no one else. The value of a TB is relative to the person who released it and the person holding it. The positive rule of thumb here is to hope for the best and expect/accept the worst.

The Trackable Misconceptions:

Again, most of the misconceptions I see with regard to trackable items seem to come from a sense of entitlement and unrealistic expectation from both owner’s and interested parties.


If a TB is private property that has been placed in public trust and also a hapless pawn to chance, then many, mannny TB owners either can’t, or won’t, accept that they have taken a gamble on releasing their trackable item and also don’t realize that “Public Trust” is an oxymoron. When you gamble and lose in the real world you either quit, or pony up for more disappointment in hopes of a win. Anything more is unrealistic.



Perception IS reality. The fact remains that our perceptions of geocaching change with experience, but the guidelines for how it's played change much slower. As yet, the guidelines and very few rules that exist don't seem to support the sense entitlement and unrealistic expectation that causes so much angst.


So, that's all I had time for, but I believe that the subjects I mentioned are the root of ALL geocaching related angst. I'll leave the branches to those that care to discuss.

Whether you agree or disagree let's hear what you think.....

[briansnat]

I disagree. Though there are occasionally issues that arise from the situations you outlined, I think most of the angst stems from the evolution of geocaching from being a sport for people with "a GPS and a sense of adventure" to a contest to rack up smileys.

The fallout from this has resulted in:

1. The proliferation of what many feel to be lame micros.

2. The fact that the "found it" log no longer necessarily indicates that someone found a cache. Its devolved from a simple a log type to a commodity that is traded, awarded and claimed regardless of whether a geocache listed on this website has been found.

I think most of the angst filled threads have one of these at the root.

This post has been edited by briansnat: 28 November 2006 - 03:58 PM

[NorthWes]

I agree - the ANGST in the forums generally relates
to expectation shortfalls experienced by the poster.

Far too much text is posted about expectation shortfalls...

More needs to be said when expectations are exceeded...

If posters will promote the 'best' of what's out there,
perhaps it will help shift behaviors more rapidly than now,
with the negativity that seems so prevalent in some parts
of the forums. Areas such as the benchmarking section are
quite polite and feature threads on the 'best practices' and
'best photographs' - I've learned much from those posters.

Perhaps my cynicism about the relative probability of that
occuring in the rest of the forum will be proven wrong...

What was that called in the 'Bambi' movie? The Thumper rule?
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

[Clan Riffster]

One of the most common misconceptions espoused by a vocal minority is that all caches have an equal value. BillyBobNosePicker's film canister tossed behind a dumpster at Burger King is somehow equal to an ammo can sitting at the top of Stone Mountain, other than differences in difficulty & terrain.

[Snoogans]

briansnat, on Nov 28 2006, 03:54 PM, said:

I disagree. Though there are occasionally issues that arise from the situations you outlined, I think most of the angst stems from the evolution of geocaching from being a sport for people with "a GPS and a sense of adventure" to a contest to rack up smileys.

The fallout from this has resulted in:

1. The proliferation of what many feel to be lame micros.

2. The fact that the "found it" log no longer necessarily indicates that someone found a cache. Its devolved from a simple a log type to a commodity that is traded, awarded and claimed regardless of whether a geocache listed on this website has been found.

I think most of the angst filled threads have one of these at the root.

I'd call that a branch and a huge perception issue. The guidelines don't support your view of geocaching evolution although I would agree that tons of people on these forums will.

Everyone participates in a way that gives them satisfaction whether it is to seek adventure or to rack up smileys. Both are valid. Percieved fallout not withstanding.

[edscott]

Clan Riffster, on Nov 28 2006, 04:10 PM, said:

One of the most common misconceptions espoused by a vocal minority is that all caches have an equal value. BillyBobNosePicker's film canister tossed behind a dumpster at Burger King is somehow equal to an ammo can sitting at the top of Stone Mountain, other than differences in difficulty & terrain.

So if we collected terrain and difficulty stars instead of smileys some of the problems could go away? or would lamp posts suddenly be worth 5 stars because we risk electrocution.

[Snoogans]

edscott, on Nov 28 2006, 04:21 PM, said:

Clan Riffster, on Nov 28 2006, 04:10 PM, said:

One of the most common misconceptions espoused by a vocal minority is that all caches have an equal value. BillyBobNosePicker's film canister tossed behind a dumpster at Burger King is somehow equal to an ammo can sitting at the top of Stone Mountain, other than differences in difficulty & terrain.

So if we collected terrain and difficulty stars instead of smileys some of the problems could go away? or would lamp posts suddenly be worth 5 stars because we risk electrocution.

If we collected terrain and difficulty stars, I suspect that star inflation would be the NEW huge issue of angst.

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 28 November 2006 - 04:27 PM

[wimseyguy]

"I know what geocaching is supposed to be better than you do."

Not me personally- but this viewpoint seems to lead to a lot of angst.

Does carleeenp know this thread exists?

[carleenp]

wimseyguy, on Nov 28 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

Does carleeenp know this thread exists?

Yes.

I think a misconception can happen when people read a complaint and assume that the person is full of rage and anguish. I think many people can type a rant while actually feeling perfectly calm. The internet makes calm ranting rather easy. That also means that all angst should be taken with the knowledge that it might not be as angst ridden as it seems.

BTW, anguish is a nice word......

I'm not sure that this was responsive to the OP though. Sorry if it wasn't.

This post has been edited by carleenp: 28 November 2006 - 05:57 PM

[Snoogans]

wimseyguy, on Nov 28 2006, 04:53 PM, said:

"I know what geocaching is supposed to be better than you do."

Not me personally- but this viewpoint seems to lead to a lot of angst.

Yep that's the trunk of the tree that Briansnat's post branches from.

[Snoogans]

carleenp, on Nov 28 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

wimseyguy, on Nov 28 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

Does carleeenp know this thread exists?

I'm not sure that this was responsinve to the OP though. Sorry if it wasn't.

Hey, we're discussing angst and what leads to it. Anything along or parallel to those lines is on topic enough for me.

[wimseyguy]

Anything that brings a smiling violet girl into a thread is on topic enough for me.

[El Diablo]

I agree with Brian. It's the competition that causes most of the problems. Nothing wrong with competition, it just needs to be clairified as to what is a find. Either that or do away with public find counts.


Hey Carleen!


El Diablo

[KGunner]

When I started this not too long ago at all, I had low expectations. I just wanted to use my new GPSr and go outside and explore. It gives me something to do by myself in solitude, or with somebody else. Hell, its cheap to hunt for them, after you get the GPS. Very few other things are done worldwide by what could be millions of people. People from infant to about to death can do this, fully capable or physically disabled can cache. Its fun. People need to remember it is supposed to be fun. There are no winners or losers, just participants.

[El Diablo]

KGunner, on Nov 28 2006, 05:37 PM, said:

When I started this not too long ago at all, I had low expectations. I just wanted to use my new GPSr and go outside and explore. It gives me something to do by myself in solitude, or with somebody else. Hell, its cheap to hunt for them, after you get the GPS. Very few other things are done worldwide by what could be millions of people. People from infant to about to death can do this, fully capable or physically disabled can cache. Its fun. People need to remember it is supposed to be fun. There are no winners or losers, just participants.

If everyone shared this same opinion, there would be very little angst.

El Diablo

This post has been edited by El Diablo: 28 November 2006 - 06:05 PM

[Snoogans]

El Diablo, on Nov 28 2006, 06:04 PM, said:

KGunner, on Nov 28 2006, 05:37 PM, said:

When I started this not too long ago at all, I had low expectations. I just wanted to use my new GPSr and go outside and explore. It gives me something to do by myself in solitude, or with somebody else. Hell, its cheap to hunt for them, after you get the GPS. Very few other things are done worldwide by what could be millions of people. People from infant to about to death can do this, fully capable or physically disabled can cache. Its fun. People need to remember it is supposed to be fun. There are no winners or losers, just participants.

If everyone shared this same opinion, there would be very little angst.

El Diablo

As I said in my OP, perceptions change over time with experience......

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 28 November 2006 - 06:39 PM

[biosearch]

NorthWes, on Nov 28 2006, 04:00 PM, said:

<clip>If posters will promote the 'best' of what's out there,
perhaps it will help shift behaviors more rapidly than now,
with the negativity that seems so prevalent in some parts
of the forums. .... <clip>

Yes, excellent, unique, fabulous view, etc. And if you can't find anything good to say, don't say anything at all.

I think I would agree with the idea that geocachers fall into groups that can be defined in rather specific terms. Not everyone is out for the same reason. Once we agree to this, and agree to disagree, we are better of. I believe...

So yea, say something good or.... And if you don't like a cache at all, and feel obligated to say something bad, don't log the cache. I would say that many of the cachers (and this is, I will admit, a broad generalization) that are looking for more than (and I have heard this statement so many times) the lamp post micro, aren't in it for numbers. So I think, if you aren't, don't log it and feel good that you have the better ones to find and comment on.

Of course with the discussions that go on, this is will probably not happen and those who post to the forums will continue to post these sorts of issues. And I'm new to this and have already seen far more of this than I would expect...

[biosearch]

carleenp, on Nov 28 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

wimseyguy, on Nov 28 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

Does carleeenp know this thread exists?

Yes.

I think a misconception can happen when people read a complaint and assume that the person is full of rage and anguish. I think many people can type a rant while actually feeling perfectly calm. The internet makes calm ranting rather easy. That also means that all angst should be taken with the knowledge that it might not be as angst ridden as it seems.

BTW, anguish is a nice word......

I'm not sure that this was responsive to the OP though. Sorry if it wasn't.

I had to reply to this, if for no other reason then because of the pretty woman...

I have to agree completely (mostly again because of the pretty woman, I've learned from my wife never to disagree with a women). Misconceptions of this sort can happen in person, and many times do. How often has something you said been misunderstood and caused problems down the line. (Once someone thought that when I said, "The stupid old bat" I was speaking about my mother-in-law and we all know I'm not insane enough to bring down that sort of wrath, she isn't stupid, she's just an old bat....)

Anyway, it is doubly difficult when you do not have the persons facial expressions, mannerisms, good looks, etc. to effect your interpretation of their words. There is a lot to be said for that...

[CoyoteRed]

Snoogans, on Nov 28 2006, 06:25 PM, said:

Most of the misconceptions I see with regard to geocaching seem to come from a sense of entitlement from both hider’s and finders and no small amount of unrealistic expectation.

Personally, I find this statement a fine example of the whole post in general--full of bias and sense of, how did wimseyguy put it, "I know what geocaching is supposed to be better than you do." It almost begs to cause angst. Beyond this post I think I'm going to otherwise refrain from responding because the thread is based on misconceptions on the part of the OP himself.

I mean, why else would the hobby even exist if it were to not entertain our fellow enthusiasts? Those who fail to even attempt to do so, or do so at the expense of others are, well, the root of such angst.

[biosearch]

CoyoteRed, on Nov 28 2006, 06:49 PM, said:

Snoogans, on Nov 28 2006, 06:25 PM, said:

Most of the misconceptions I see with regard to geocaching seem to come from a sense of entitlement from both hider’s and finders and no small amount of unrealistic expectation.

Personally, I find this statement a fine example of the whole post in general--full of bias and sense of, how did wimseyguy put it, "I know what geocaching is supposed to be better than you do." It almost begs to cause angst. Beyond this post I think I'm going to otherwise refrain from responding because the thread is based on misconceptions on the part of the OP himself.

I mean, why else would the hobby even exist if it were to not entertain our fellow enthusiasts? Those who fail to even attempt to do so, or do so at the expense of others are, well, the root of such angst.

And now the angst rears its ugly head... Not that you arn't entitled to your opinion, which you certainly are and I credit you for posting it. It is your opinion.

And I think that this is where we were headed in the first place with this topic. Where, why, how, who, when??? And I don't think that there is really any answer except for the one already stated. Expectations.

You have certain expectations of the hobby, the OP has others, I may have some, or many, that are completely different then both you and the OP. With that in the mix, there is little doubt that disagreements will become open and those disagreements may at some times become heated.

A good word to describe this, angst is.

"Angst is a Dutch, German, and Scandinavian word for fear or anxiety. It is used in English to describe an intense feeling of emotional strife. A different but related meaning is attributed to Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard (1813–1855). Kierkegaard used the word angst (Danish, meaning "dread") to describe a profound and deep-seated spiritual condition of insecurity and despair in the free human being."

Interested, am I, in the choice of words the OP used.

Wondering, am I, whether hobbies are intended to entertain others, or to entertain the individual taking part in the hobby? Perhaps this is where the angst comes from. It is apparently so in this case.

I'm curious now (and please do not feel that I am unloading on you Coyotered, it is simply that your post was the one that started this train of thought) as to how many cachers do this for any other reason then to amuse and entertain themselves. I have only one hide, but I did it for myself, not necessarily for others. It is the reaction that I get from others that interests me, not the sense of entertaining others. Their reaction is my entertainment. And I hunt caches for the same reason.

Again, just a thought.... on a boring night.... when I should be getting to bed...

[Harry Dolphin]

Snoogans, on Nov 28 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

Most of the misconceptions I see with regard to geocaching seem to come from a sense of entitlement from both hider’s and finders and no small amount of unrealistic expectation.

I'm following a few angst filled caches.
August 12, 2001 by AA (5592 found)
Very nice area for recreation and picnics.

February 23, 2002 by BB (48 found)
I think it's gone. We looked for this one for the better part of an hour with no luck.

February 23, 2002 by CC (906 found)
We looked for a long time. We trampled on several people's homes, but couldn't find it. Hope to go back again to find it at a later date.

May 20, 2002 by DD (1111 found)
Thanks, AA for reminding me about this site, and thanks, Hider, for yet another terrific placement!

March 23, 2003 by EE (773 found)
An hour search, until I figured I would widen the search area.
Thanks for the cache and thank you

October 22, 2003 by DD (1111 found)
Revisited this cache while waiting to snag the new cache. The cache remains in very good condition.

October 28, 2003 by FF (3020 found)
Forgot to sign log. ... took WG$.
Searched for over an hour... should have approached it differently.

November 26, 2003 by GG (8 found)
Looked high and low like it was our job for over an hour. I fear we significantly altered the geography of the general area in our attempts. No cache found, though.

January 24, 2004 by HH (1202 found)
Outstanding cache.

February 22, 2004 by II (88 found)
Stopped by after nearby cache. I got down to the water, but didn't see it quickly. The rental car timer was running out so we had to go unfortunately.
We'll be back.

May 2, 2004 by JJ (333 found)
Yet another location that I would never visit otherwise.

May 8, 2004 by KK (680 found)
Climbed down by water and took good look around. Ready to give up when I slipped and grabbed the location of the cache for support.

June 8, 2004 by LL (188 found)
I looked under rocks and all over the place, and when I found it he nodded his head. I signed the log, took the GSP coin, and left a homie. Great hide in a real nice spot. Thanks

August 14, 2004 by MM (29 found)
Looked on shoreline, at shortest distance. Rocky terrain means you must use caution. Lots of trash around to confuse searchers. . . .

August 20, 2004 by JJ (333 found)
The cache is in fine shape. I checked on

October 10, 2004 by NN (91 found)
After 90 minutes of shifting rocks expanding the search zone and the occasional introspective thought of what the heck I was doing hope expired and I trundled off Thanks for the hunt.

October 16, 2004 by NN (91 found)
After the failed attempt last weekend and an explanation from JJ that old GPSrs were not so accurate (thanks) I widened my search and found the cache quickly.

November 4, 2004 by OO (3478 found)
I got lucky on this one and found it right away. That's a cool cache spot.

February 19, 2005 by PP (440 found)
This was my last for today and maybe I was not looking enough but it was so freezing cool and after climbing up and down and thinking what might the hint mean .. I gave up ...

February 20, 2005 by QQ(276 found)
My GPSr was insistently pointing me a few feet out into the water as I approached the right area. Choosing to ignore its advice, I looked in numerous plausible hiding spots on dry land instead, and was rewarded with a cache in good condition not too far away.

March 27, 2005 by RR (1022 found)
Very scenic area. thanks.

March 27, 2005 by SS (753 found)
Found it.

April 12, 2005 by TT (120 found)
All i can say is, what a helluva place for a geocache.

May 6, 2005 by UU (38 found)
One of my favorite caches so far. What an unusul spot.

May 29, 2005 by VV (21 found)
Doh! Wish I had read the hint before hunting for this one! Spent 20 minutes turning over rocks to no avail. Will have to return to look again.

August 31, 2005 by WW (900 found)
I approached this one on my bike I stand there, 135 feet from the cache. I can see where I need to go, but I am reluctant to be out of sight of my bike and I don't want to take it down there with me. After 15 minutes the car is still there so I give it up... I'm just not a city person. This kind of stuff freaks me out.

October 24, 2005 by XX (1535 found)
Looked for about 15 minutes for this one. Never saw another soul while I searched, except for the ones across the river and on the boats. Searched high and low, but no luck today

January 8 by YY (2340 found)
We spent about 30 minutes looking for this one. The coordinates were putting us in the water. After falling down the embankment and cutting up my let we gave it up.

January 28 by YY (2340 found)
This was the second try at this and this time found without any problem.

January 28 by ZZ (1991 found)
Second try for this Cache and this time found it with out any problem but quite a way from ground zero.

February 24 by AB (3038 found)
I got to ground zero and couldn't find the cache. I then figured it out. I stopped being a guy and started thinking like a geocacher and it was in the first place I looked.

April 13 by BC(76 found)
Searched for this cache before I approched GZ from both above and below, and was still unable to locate. AB was kind enough to aid me with a clue which might make a return trip more productive. It's gotta be there....

May 21 by CD (99 found)
Miserable day for geocaching. Fell down the embankment, got scratched up, thorns in fingers, not very happy. Looked around still, but couldn't find it.

June 8 by DE (99 found)
well as you can see i didnt find it, the coords where leading me north of what i think was the caches location. after reading the logs i tryied a more southerly course but still nothing. I slid up and donw the banks-luckly not ingering myself, but just getting more and more frustrated. The only thing we did find was a rats nest-which we thought was the cache for a good minute or two and tried to remove it.

September 2 by EF (4314 found)
Yeah...DNF. But I think I know where it was. Don't think it's there anymore though.

September 26 by BC (76 found)
Tried again today, and searched for about 2 hours. No luck. I searched (very) high and low. Can't imagine a Hider cache muggled tho...

November 26 by DE (99 found)
Shouldn't this one be archived? It's missing and hasn't been replaced in months.

November 27 by Admin (0 found)
Greetings from Geocaching.com
This cache was brought to my attention by a concerned geocacher as being in trouble. The cache seems to have been plundered and needs maintenance.

Angst and expectations? DE posted an SBA. DE couldn't find it. 16 DNFs over five and a half years. Fairly well spaced with the nineteen finds. But five DNFs in a row and DE's expectations that if he couldn't find it, it must be missing, the cache is now disabled. It's not an easy find. Old GPS were not as accurate. True, the hider is no longer active, and the adopter has not checked on it. Rather a classic old cache. Too bad that some people cannot accept that just because he cannot find it, it might not be missing. Especially so with the history of DNFs on this one. I think that it is still there. If it weren't so far away, and hard to get to, I'd go back. Took me a while, but I did find it!
A sense of entitlement and unrealistic expectations say it all.

This post has been edited by Harry Dolphin: 28 November 2006 - 07:41 PM

[Clan Riffster]

biosearch, on Nov 28 2006, 06:44 PM, said:

So yea, say something good or.... And if you don't like a cache at all, and feel obligated to say something bad, don't log the cache.

Dissent must be silenced!

[sbell111]

I hate caches that I can't find.

[biosearch]

Harry Dolphin, on Nov 28 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

Angst and expectations? DE posted an SBA. DE couldn't find it. 16 DNFs over five and a half years. Fairly well spaced with the nineteen finds. But five DNFs in a row and DE's expectations that if he couldn't find it, it must be missing, the cache is now disabled. It's not an easy find. Old GPS were not as accurate. True, the hider is no longer active, and the adopter has not checked on it. Rather a classic old cache. Too bad that some people cannot accept that just because he cannot find it, it might not be missing. Especially so with the history of DNFs on this one. I think that it is still there. If it weren't so far away, and hard to get to, I'd go back. Took me a while, but I did find it!
A sense of entitlement and unrealistic expectations say it all.

Expectations more than angst. If I remember correctly the question of angst was in regards to the forum posts and why there was this angst and what caused it. I could be wrong, would have to go back and check.

But yes, I do believe that it is unrealistic expectations, or not so much unrealistic expectations, but expectations period. What I believe a cache should be, in my mind, is unrealistic, it just is, my viewpoint, my opinion, my whatever (and I have a lot of opinions and whatever, that should be obvious from my ridiculous forum posts).

I have placed one cache. It is an easy cache. The coordinates put you in the middle of a field. You couldn't miss it, it is right there, but people don't think out of the box... It is not the obvious thing. This is what I'm looking for personally, so it is what I plan to place. Others don't like that... Just like the cache you posted the comments from...

I like to think that there is something in this avocation for everyone. You know, we would probably not see the disagreements if we didn't pay attention to the forums so much and watched the Daily Show instead....

[biosearch]

Clan Riffster, on Nov 28 2006, 07:46 PM, said:

biosearch, on Nov 28 2006, 06:44 PM, said:

So yea, say something good or.... And if you don't like a cache at all, and feel obligated to say something bad, don't log the cache.

Dissent must be silenced!

Going back to that "things can be mis understood, taken the wrong way..." I was trying to put that across as a constructive thing, perhaps a bit humorous, perhaps a suggestion, certainly not something that I feel must be done. So silence that dissent concerning my post.... ha...
(please that this as humor, humor.... okay.... humor... please...)

[TrailGators]

Clan Riffster, on Nov 28 2006, 07:46 PM, said:

biosearch, on Nov 28 2006, 06:44 PM, said:

So yea, say something good or.... And if you don't like a cache at all, and feel obligated to say something bad, don't log the cache.

Dissent must be silenced!

I am starting to feel sorry for these well-intentioned newbies that hide some really awful caches. So I simply write really short logs on those. Want a good log? Then......

[Renegade Knight]

Angst is as angst does. My personal angst button is the NM log. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it. Cat's hate water. It's all the same.

That's all I got to say 'bout that.

[mtn-man]

Snoogans, on Nov 28 2006, 09:12 PM, said:

El Diablo, on Nov 28 2006, 06:04 PM, said:

KGunner, on Nov 28 2006, 05:37 PM, said:

When I started this not too long ago at all, I had low expectations. I just wanted to use my new GPSr and go outside and explore. It gives me something to do by myself in solitude, or with somebody else. Hell, its cheap to hunt for them, after you get the GPS. Very few other things are done worldwide by what could be millions of people. People from infant to about to death can do this, fully capable or physically disabled can cache. Its fun. People need to remember it is supposed to be fun. There are no winners or losers, just participants.

If everyone shared this same opinion, there would be very little angst.
El Diablo

As I said in my OP, perceptions change over time with experience......

Not everyone. I still feel just like that. Look to the left to see how long I've been at it. If people would just remember the last three lines of KGunner's post, we would have no angst and would be one big happy geocommunity.

This post has been edited by mtn-man: 28 November 2006 - 08:18 PM

[KGunner]

If my opinion/perception changes to what many "seasoned" geocachers feel, I will quit geocaching and move on to another hobby. No sense in doing something "for fun" when all it does is pisses you off and stresses you out.

This post has been edited by KGunner: 28 November 2006 - 08:19 PM

[TrailGators]

KGunner, on Nov 28 2006, 08:19 PM, said:

If my opinion/perception changes to what many "seasoned" geocachers feel, I will quit geocaching and move on to another hobby. No sense in doing something "for fun" when all it does is pisses you off and stresses you out.

That's why I quit playing golf! Now instead of finding my ball in the bushes, trees and rocks; I am finding caches in the bushes, trees and rocks!

[stlsportster]

Ya know as a newb I have an interesting perspective on this. I have 5 finds and 2 DNF (although 1 of the finds was a DNF until I went back and 1 other DNF I intend to go back and find...just a little history..

I have several different hobbies...I ride a motorcycle, I play a little golf, I scuba dive, etc. and with each hobby I find the same thing... everyone is in the sport/hobby for a different thing. When I first started Scuba Diving, a buddy of mine who was a long time diver gave me a book to identify species of fish and gave me a big lecture on keeping a life list of new fishes. I never gave a crap about fish species. I wanted to get under water. I didnt care if it was a shallow or deep dive, I didn't care if I saw tons of fish or 2, but there were lots of other people that did care about those things, and the sport was diverse enough to give everyone the opportunity to get what they wanted out of it. And I just wanted to get under the water, whenever I got the chance.

Caching is the same way. There are over 300,000 caches worldwide according to the statistics. I am a newb, but I can tell you right now, I hate complicated puzzle caches. Right now it is enough of a challenge to me to find an hour (away from the kids and wife), get to the right park, use my GPS, find the right location and then try to figure out where someone hid a cache...and I get great satisfaction from finding them...and I hate my DNFs. I might like a lamppost micro, I get it that not everyone does...and some of you are big fans of those puzzle or multi caches...

Thats great..enjoy what pieces of the sport you do and let other enjoy what they do. Obviously each of us will feel "angst" when we are faced with one of the facets of the sport we don't like...good thing there are 300,000 to choose from.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Sheesh. It's not like we're doing anything productive by playing at this. If you don't like finding hidden containers then stop looking for them for a while until you remember why you started doing it in the first place. Seems like if anyone does something long enough they invariably start taking themselves too seriously. That hidden box has to meet higher and higher standards to evoke the same excitement, until nothing is good enough.

Before responding to this post make sure you hit the keys with the proper flair and a well-timed tempo. No micro posts, either; we don't need that kind of spew around here! Don't even get me started about your posture! Don't make me come over there! We need to keep up the gold standard around here!

[Confucius' Cat]

sbell111, on Nov 28 2006, 10:49 PM, said:

I hate caches that I can't find.

That's HATE SPEECH! You should be banned.

This post has been edited by Confucius' Cat: 28 November 2006 - 09:47 PM

[nobby.nobbs]

at the end of the day we all like what we like and conversly dislike what we dislike.

no cache is going to have universal approval. what to some is a lovely walk will to others be dull and tedious.

what we need t oremember is that this is, afterall just a hobby and it hardly matters in the overall scheme of things.

have respect for others and their opinions and hopefully they will do likewise to you.

[Renegade Knight]

TrailGators, on Nov 28 2006, 09:29 PM, said:

KGunner, on Nov 28 2006, 08:19 PM, said:

If my opinion/perception changes to what many "seasoned" geocachers feel, I will quit geocaching and move on to another hobby. No sense in doing something "for fun" when all it does is pisses you off and stresses you out.

That's why I quit playing golf! Now instead of finding my ball in the bushes, trees and rocks; I am finding caches in the bushes, trees and rocks!

I think I'd enjoy golf. Except the people I know who play insist on playing sober. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

[wimseyguy]

TrailGators, on Nov 28 2006, 11:29 PM, said:

KGunner, on Nov 28 2006, 08:19 PM, said:

If my opinion/perception changes to what many "seasoned" geocachers feel, I will quit geocaching and move on to another hobby. No sense in doing something "for fun" when all it does is pisses you off and stresses you out.

That's why I quit playing golf! Now instead of finding my ball in the bushes, trees and rocks; I am finding caches in the bushes, trees and rocks!

Me too, except my standard line for the shift in playtime is " before I started geocaching, a walk in the woods was usually down the right side of the fairway looking for a sliced drive."
And speaking as ine who could wear that "seasoned geocacher" label, I have walked away from a search when it wasn't fun anymore. After all, it is all about having FUN and the numbers.

This post has been edited by wimseyguy: 29 November 2006 - 05:37 AM

[TheAlabamaRambler]

I think Wimseyguy has it nailed with his sig line.

Quote

You're apparently confusing the forums with the geocaching community. That's kind of like confusing society with talk radio and editorial pages.

I have never experienced the kinds of concerns, angst and impassioned conversations that fill the forums when caching with others or at events.
Ed

[mgbmusic]

TheAlabamaRambler, on Nov 29 2006, 06:49 AM, said:

I think Wimseyguy has it nailed with his sig line.

Quote

You're apparently confusing the forums with the geocaching community. That's kind of like confusing society with talk radio and editorial pages.

I have never experienced the kinds of concerns, angst and impassioned conversations that fill the forums when caching with others or at events.
Ed

Well, tecnically, it sohuld read:
You're apparently confusing the forums with the geocaching community. That's kind of like confusing talk radio and editorial pages with society.

But yeah...yuo're right on. Nice disaclaimer AR. I like mine better...

[cimawr]

Harry Dolphin, on Nov 28 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

Angst and expectations? DE posted an SBA. DE couldn't find it. 16 DNFs over five and a half years. Fairly well spaced with the nineteen finds. But five DNFs in a row and DE's expectations that if he couldn't find it, it must be missing, the cache is now disabled.

I'm a relative newb (started in August, have just over 100 finds), but that's a phenomenon I find interesting - people who insist on that just because they couldn't find a cache, it *must* be missing, and should be disabled or archived. It gets even more interesting when reading the logs would have told them that quite a few others needed several tries to find it.
Just encountered the phenomenon a couple of days ago:
Post 15

[Snoogans]

TheAlabamaRambler, on Nov 29 2006, 06:49 AM, said:

I think Wimseyguy has it nailed with his sig line.

Quote

You're apparently confusing the forums with the geocaching community. That's kind of like confusing society with talk radio and editorial pages.

I have never experienced the kinds of concerns, angst and impassioned conversations that fill the forums when caching with others or at events.
Ed

Ahhh, but angst DOES exist outside the forums. To think it doesn't is naive. The subjects mentioned in my OP travel anywhere. I've been to over 70 events and when someone who never even entered the forums, or at least hasn't participated, starts talking in the negative, you can trace it back to one of those subjects or the trunk of the tree growing up from those roots which of course is, "I know know better than you what geocaching is supposed to be about." Take a good listen at the next event.

Cache hiders & finders, travel bug owners & holders, cache hiders & reviewers, exchange angst all the time that never makes it to these forums. (If only the GC.com email server could talk.) This is what you sometimes hear about at events. I've gotten better than two dozen nasty grams in just under 4 years mostly dealing with TBs. The non-forum angst is based on participation a teeny bit more than ideology. It is exactly the opposite (for the most part) on the forums.

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 29 November 2006 - 07:35 AM

[Snoogans]

CoyoteRed, on Nov 28 2006, 06:49 PM, said:

It almost begs to cause angst.

Beyond this post I think I'm going to otherwise refrain from responding because the thread is based on misconceptions on the part of the OP himself.

Irony. A forum thread discussing the root causes of angst that actually causes more angst. Welllll not so far as I can tell, ummmm, so far.

I'll quote my disclaimer, "Feel free to disagree with me, but this is the way I see it."

In the OP, my misconceptions have been based on the guidelines, faqs, and very few rules that were promulgated by geocaching.com. They have changed very little in my time here. They are NOT based in forum ideology.

Gosh CR. I hope you reconsider participating in this thread. I never learned much from someone who always agreed with me and you and I seldom agree. I always look foreword to your input.

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 29 November 2006 - 07:35 AM

[Sioneva]

cimawr, on Nov 29 2006, 07:00 AM, said:

Harry Dolphin, on Nov 28 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

Angst and expectations? DE posted an SBA. DE couldn't find it. 16 DNFs over five and a half years. Fairly well spaced with the nineteen finds. But five DNFs in a row and DE's expectations that if he couldn't find it, it must be missing, the cache is now disabled.

I'm a relative newb (started in August, have just over 100 finds), but that's a phenomenon I find interesting - people who insist on that just because they couldn't find a cache, it *must* be missing, and should be disabled or archived. It gets even more interesting when reading the logs would have told them that quite a few others needed several tries to find it.
Just encountered the phenomenon a couple of days ago:
Post 15

I've been guilty of this, only to come up with egg on my face after. You'd think I'd learn! But I've never said a cache should be disabled or archived, at least.

As for my take on the angst issue - it does spring from "play your game the way I want you to play it, or else!" Aside from the rules Groundspeak sets, common sense, and a strong desire to play fairly, I try to ignore the artificial rules others try to push into place which reflect /their/ common sense and /their/ strong desire to play fairly. Which I have no problem with - just play it your way, I play it mine, we stick to Groundspeak rules, and everyone is happy. Right? ....

If only it worked that way.

[Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

Quote

Ahhh, but angst DOES exist outside the forums.

Not only does angst exist outside the forums, it exists outside geocaching. Fact is a lot of folks just love to live in a state angst all the time. I hear angst at work regarding politics, bad Chinese food, whther Xbox 360 is better than Playstation 3, and about a million other topics. Those that like to keep their knickers in a twist will find a way to do so, regardless of the subject matter.

I personally don't subscribe to angst in general. I always ask myself "will it matter in a million years?" If I can't answer yes, whatever it is isn't worth getting upset about.

That being said, I believe CR has hit the nail on the head about what causes OTHER folks angst.

Quote

I mean, why else would the hobby even exist if it were to not entertain our fellow enthusiasts? Those who fail to even attempt to do so, or do so at the expense of others are, well, the root of such angst.

The fact of the matter is, as much as we like to say "you play your game and I'll play mine", geocaching at it's core is a symbiotic activity. The hider needs the finder and the other way around. I'm often surprised when I read cache hiders talk about "my cache". I consider hiding a cache as a public service, for the pleasure of other cachers. I consider a good log as a thanks to the cache hider. But that's just me.
When you think about it, so many of the actions in geocaching can affect others, ESPECIALLY if a person is already prone to being angst-filled. A cache hider can hide a leaky film cannister behind a dumpster, that affects unsuspecting finders. A finder can leave a "TNLNSL" log on a cache, and that can affect a cache owner. A TB finder can hold onto a bug too long, which can affect the TB owner. The TB owner can send annoying emails to TB finders after they've held them for 3 days, thus affecting the TB finder.

Do I think any of these actions SHOULD affect people? No, and I think it's silly when folks actually allow themselves to be bothered by a leisure-time activity. But you wanted to discuss what causes angst in those who allow themselves to feel it, and I think it stems from people being unaware that this hobby is intrinsically linked to other people.

[carleenp]

TheAlabamaRambler, on Nov 29 2006, 08:49 AM, said:

I think Wimseyguy has it nailed with his sig line.

Quote

You're apparently confusing the forums with the geocaching community. That's kind of like confusing society with talk radio and editorial pages.

I have never experienced the kinds of concerns, angst and impassioned conversations that fill the forums when caching with others or at events.
Ed

I have. Although in line with my comment before, the ones I have encountered normally were not really all that anguished. They just wanted to discuss/debate. But a few have been actually angry or upset over something with the game, and often over things that I thought were rather trivial in whole scheme of things. But then again, I don't get riled up all that easily. There may be some valid concerns that affect the game and are worthy of good discussion, but I don't personally find them worth getting completely stressed over.

If a hobby stresses a person and causes real angst (not the general froum discussion stuff, but actual physical/mental anguish), then I would not define it as a hobby for them anymore and suggest that they find something more calming to occupy their time.

And I still doubt that this addresses the OP, but it is sort of related.....

[Snoogans]

Googling Hrpty Hrrs, on Nov 29 2006, 07:55 AM, said:

But you wanted to discuss what causes angst in those who allow themselves to feel it, and I think it stems from people being unaware that this hobby is intrinsically linked to other people.

Not unaware am I, but I don't think I ever really considered it in exactly those terms before.

I believe you have hit the nail on the head most squarely.

Let's call that the soil in which the roots of angst grow.

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 29 November 2006 - 08:36 AM

[nfa]

I think that significant numbers of both finders and hiders expect the "Golden Rule of Geocaching" to be in effect...that is, they would like to find the kinds of hides that they {{{perceive}}} that they hide...they would like people who find their caches to treat them/trade they way that they {{{perceive}}} treat/trade when dealing with other peoples' caches...

I hide (and maintain) the kind of geocaches that I like to find, but not everybody likes them...I always trade up(leaving better than I take), rehide caches, and perform simple maintenance on the caches that I find...the geocaching world would be a better place in many respects if everyone did these things, but they don't...

and I'm generally OK with the gap between how I geocache and the way that experience has taught me a lot of other people geocache...many people are not...and that, I believe, leads to the endless compaining in the forums...

The Golden Rule Gap

Jamie - NFA

[Mr.Yuck]

carleenp, on Nov 28 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

wimseyguy, on Nov 28 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

Does carleeenp know this thread exists?

Yes.

I think a misconception can happen when people read a complaint and assume that the person is full of rage and anguish. I think many people can type a rant while actually feeling perfectly calm. The internet makes calm ranting rather easy. That also means that all angst should be taken with the knowledge that it might not be as angst ridden as it seems.

BTW, anguish is a nice word......

I'm not sure that this was responsive to the OP though. Sorry if it wasn't.

I think this post by Carleenp is chock full of great wisdom. Why is it that someone who shares a differing opinion than you is automatically full of anger, rage and vitriol? Disagreement can happen in a very calm, constrained manner.

You don't know how many times I've seen, since the day Al Gore invented the internet, incidents via email, usenet, or web message boards (such as this), where people have mistakenly thought they could judge the mood of a person, or the tone of their words, as read from a computer screen. Some of these misunderstandings were quite ugly too, I might add.

So I say the perception of Angst is, in itself, a misconception.

Besides, who's to say that those who feel a keyholder on a guardrail next to a dumpster in a parking lot represents an overall decline of the game aren't merely stating a glaringly obvious fact, and it's the posters like the OP who are angst-ridden?

[Snoogans]

TheWhiteUrkel, on Nov 29 2006, 09:07 AM, said:

So I say the perception of Angst is, in itself, a misconception.

Besides, who's to say that those who feel a keyholder on a guardrail next to a dumpster in a parking lot represents an overall decline of the game aren't merely stating a glaringly obvious fact, and it's the posters like the OP who are angst-ridden?

Wellll, perception IS reality.

However, all of the official written information produced by this website doesn't support that. (I believe Terracaching.com does support it somewhat.) I spent hours reading and rereading the various guidelines, faq's, and rules, before posting my OP.

Ask yourself this question. If perceived lame lampost/guardrail micros represent the decline of geocaching, why do they STILL get approved for being within the guidelines?

Here's some old quotes that pertain to this post:

Quote

The hider is playing a game called geocaching. They are evidently playing it right because their cache was approved.

You are also playing a GAME (sport/hobby/obsession/etc.) evidently called MY version of Geocaching 1.5, or maybe even 2.O. You seem to be failing at your game if you are not able to enjoy it. - Snoogans

"Failure is a hard pill to swallow until you realize the only failure you can really have in this sport is the failure to enjoy yourself."
TotemLake 4/26/04

"Everyone plays their own game. There is no sense in trying to police another's mindset as long as it falls within the general parameters of the game." Me (quoting myself from the poll that I posted on 10/23/03.)

There's more than one lane on the geocaching highway.-Snoogans 12/24/04

This post has been edited by Snoogans: 29 November 2006 - 09:37 AM

[Mr.Yuck]

Snoogans, on Nov 29 2006, 09:27 AM, said:

TheWhiteUrkel, on Nov 29 2006, 09:07 AM, said:

So I say the perception of Angst is, in itself, a misconception.

Besides, who's to say that those who feel a keyholder on a guardrail next to a dumpster in a parking lot represents an overall decline of the game aren't merely stating a glaringly obvious fact, and it's the posters like the OP who are angst-ridden?

Wellll, perception IS reality.

However, all of the official written information produced by this website doesn't support that. (I believe Terracaching.com does support it somewhat.) I spent hours reading and rereading the various guidelines, faq's, and rules, before posting my OP.

Ask yourself this question. If perceived lame lampost/guardrail micros represent the decline of geocaching, why do they STILL get approved for being within the guidelines?

Maybe the Terracaching mission statement on their front page supports it, but the caches themselves are approved by peers, who may or may not agree with the statement.

As far as the perceived lame lampost/guardrail micros meeting guidelines and being published, no disagreement there. But then again, there was a day when almost any Locationless or Virtual would have been approved as meeting guidelines.

And if I was posting to these forums 2 years ago dissent about Cemetery caches, I'd be a great visionary right now, don't ya' think?

[Clan Riffster]

Snoogans, on Nov 29 2006, 09:27 AM, said:

If perceived lame lampost/guardrail micros represent the decline of geocaching, why do they STILL get approved for being within the guidelines?

Perhaps the reviewers are not allowed to decline a submitted hide based simply on the fact that it's lame? Reviewers are supposed to ensure a cache meets the current guidelines. They are not supposed to be quality control experts.