[Roadtorque]

So I do a lot of camping with the boyscouts. (Im a leader not a kid!). Of course the boys love a big fire and we always have one when allowed. One of the things that bugs me the most about a fire is people tend to throw everything into it. Plastic forks, cups, bags food, cans, used handwarmers, or anything that might burn. This really bugs me. I thought that putting plastics and non wood-based material into a fire released toxins and was bad for the environment. Now dont think I'm an extreme tree huger because I am far from it, but on the same hand I dont like to harm things just for fun. I just dont understand why people dont burns what paper based product they have and put the rest in a trash bag and dispose of it later in a dumpster, especially while car camping. I guess it might be a different story while backpacking and you dont want the wight of the garbage to pack out, but to me the answer to that is pack smarter. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

[XopherN71]

Just one.

If you brought it with to begin with there wouldn't be extra weight to take it back out.

I guess I'm one of those people that throws stuff into a fire to see what happens, can't help your cause much - sorry.

[Roadtorque]

XopherN71, on May 5 2008, 08:17 PM, said:

Just one.

If you brought it with to begin with there wouldn't be extra weight to take it back out.

I guess I'm one of those people that throws stuff into a fire to see what happens, can't help your cause much - sorry.

Well to each his own, we can still be friends you just might catch a nasty look on my face from time to time if we were to ever camp together!

[kokodoug]

burnt wood and rocks are part of the wooded natural landscape. You know, forest fires and the like? LNT hiking lets nature decide for herself when to burn. I love fires too, but restrict it to places built for fires (like USFS campgrounds).

To let the land reclaim a fire ring, one has only to scatter the rocks and ashes. It's a shame when the ashes contain melted plastic, cans, and whatnot. All they do is litter the landscape.
Sorry, gotta agree - pack it in, pack it out. Carry a plastic bag for trash.

The natural landscape of manufactured implements (plasticware, cans) is the city/landfill. No place in the wilderness or backcountry.

[TotemLake]

Gotta go with this. I used to camp with folks thinking it was ok to bring their landfill to burn because they were too cheap to pay the $15 to legally dump it. I'm talking truck tires. Wrecked one of my tents and I wasn't too pleased about that. I learned to set up further away and put tarps over my stuff shielding from the general direction (y'all probably saw the rockets bouncing off the tarp comment in an earlier thread). I've since given up camping with such folk because 1) they didn't respect their peers and 2) they didn't respect their environment.

If it isn't wood or a starter intended for campfires, it doesn't belong. Napkins will float as hazardous cinders and shouldn't be considered as fire fodder. I accidentally burned a hole in another tent as a result of that little mistake.

[Roadtorque]

TotemLake, on May 5 2008, 09:03 PM, said:

Gotta go with this. I used to camp with folks thinking it was ok to bring their landfill to burn because they were too cheap to pay the $15 to legally dump it. I'm talking truck tires. Wrecked one of my tents and I wasn't too pleased about that. I learned to set up further away and put tarps over my stuff shielding from the general direction (y'all probably saw the rockets bouncing off the tarp comment in an earlier thread). I've since given up camping with such folk because 1) they didn't respect their peers and 2) they didn't respect their environment.

If it isn't wood or a starter intended for campfires, it doesn't belong. Napkins will float as hazardous cinders and shouldn't be considered as fire fodder. I accidentally burned a hole in another tent as a result of that little mistake.

I did wonder about the rocket thing. I had seen it in the other thread. Speaking of the napkin thing leaving floaters. Went camping with my family, my brother-in-law tossed a spent charcoal bag into the fire. Talk about burning cinders flying everywhere, and this was during a fire hazard time. We were running around trying to catch the things before they hit they dry grass.

You know when I go with the scouts who are almost as bad as the people you were talking about (by the way I pretty sure burning tires is illegal) I try to educate them about fires and the environment but it seems to turn into nag, nag, nag, nag, nag on my part. When your paired up with a scout group you dont really choose who you camp with, your assigned to camp with them and with most of the boys you just deal with them.

[dragonflys]

I was camping with the scouts a couple of weeks ago and I made them haul out everything that was not paper, no plastics on the fire. We also used a firepan and practiced leave no trace. The reason we were so careful was we camped in a place that was not an established campsite as we were a safety station for a 24 hour orienteering race and the organizers asked us to set up in a remote area.

But no plastics ever on the fire

[mikey_b]

Most of the plastics I carry into the woods with me is plastic bags and such for food. A little effort to fold them back up when I'm done and pack them out is worth it in my opinion. If it's paper, wood, or food, I have no problems throwing it on, but plastics and glass bottles and pressurized cans of OFF! and a no for me (did the can of OFF! when I was in scouts).

[TotemLake]

mikey_b, on May 6 2008, 02:13 PM, said:

Most of the plastics I carry into the woods with me is plastic bags and such for food. A little effort to fold them back up when I'm done and pack them out is worth it in my opinion. If it's paper, wood, or food, I have no problems throwing it on, but plastics and glass bottles and pressurized cans of OFF! and a no for me (did the can of OFF! when I was in scouts).

Just an fyi:
Food burned in the campfire does not prevent animals from trying to root it out and become habituated to the campsite as a food source. I watched a video of a couple of brown bears going through a campsite and the fire pit was one of the spots hit.

I know sometimes it can't be helped. My note is more for the intentional and for situational awareness.

[webscouter.]

My son and I always carry a Frisbee, lexan spoon and cup with us. The Frisbee makes a nice plate or shallow bowl.

The scouts shouldn't be bringing in any disposable place settings. Then you don't have to worry that they are throwing stuff in the fires and you are being more gentle on the environment. (Reusing frisbee vs 6 disposable place settings a weekend)

[mikey_b]

TotemLake, on May 6 2008, 02:50 PM, said:

mikey_b, on May 6 2008, 02:13 PM, said:

Most of the plastics I carry into the woods with me is plastic bags and such for food. A little effort to fold them back up when I'm done and pack them out is worth it in my opinion. If it's paper, wood, or food, I have no problems throwing it on, but plastics and glass bottles and pressurized cans of OFF! and a no for me (did the can of OFF! when I was in scouts).

Just an fyi:
Food burned in the campfire does not prevent animals from trying to root it out and become habituated to the campsite as a food source. I watched a video of a couple of brown bears going through a campsite and the fire pit was one of the spots hit.

I know sometimes it can't be helped. My note is more for the intentional and for situational awareness.

I'm fine with that as my campsites are normally many, many miles from anyone else, typically deep into crown land. They aren't at an actual campground or anything, and I typically never go back to the same place twice.

[critterator]

I used to take groups of kids on canoe trips for the Y. We once ended up in a campground with road access, where the people in the campground next to us were burning garbage. The wind was blowing the delightful toxic fumes right over to our campsite and under into our open tarp shelter. On the bright side, I turned in into an example of why you shouldn't burn thing that aren't meant to be burnt, but come on, it wasn't even a bakcountry site. There were garbage cans everywhere, it wasn't even a matter of packing it out, just a matter of packing it 30 m down the path.

[Roadtorque]

critterator, on May 7 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

I used to take groups of kids on canoe trips for the Y. We once ended up in a campground with road access, where the people in the campground next to us were burning garbage. The wind was blowing the delightful toxic fumes right over to our campsite and under into our open tarp shelter. On the bright side, I turned in into an example of why you shouldn't burn thing that aren't meant to be burnt, but come on, it wasn't even a bakcountry site. There were garbage cans everywhere, it wasn't even a matter of packing it out, just a matter of packing it 30 m down the path.

Seeing that just make my blood boil.

[bogleman]

Fire is very primal in nature, we like to watch things burn

A large majority of the camping I do is car camping, see all sorts of folks doing stupid things - full can of lighter fluid thrown on FULL logs to get the fire going I am sure this could go on for several pages.

The only thing I toss on the fire (at night) is a couple chunks of 1/2 copper tubing - pretty green flames, puts the kids into a minor hypnotized state or could it be from the 4 mile hike?

[Roadtorque]

bogleman, on May 7 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Fire is very primal in nature, we like to watch things burn

hmmmm. interesting

[butrflybec]

Roadtorque, on May 7 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

bogleman, on May 7 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Fire is very primal in nature, we like to watch things burn

hmmmm. interesting

I think there is a little pyromaniac in us all...

[Roadtorque]

butrflybec, on May 7 2008, 05:32 PM, said:

Roadtorque, on May 7 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

bogleman, on May 7 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Fire is very primal in nature, we like to watch things burn

hmmmm. interesting

I think there is a little pyromaniac in us all...

Well sure but that doesn't mean you dont have to be responsible, go ahead and have fun, just dont be a pig about your trash

[NVGreenGecko]

You pack it in, you pack it out. Period.




Take only pictures, leave only footprints.

[Mike & Jess]

The local snowmobile club uses the saying, "Leave tracks, not trash".

I am a huge fan of the large freezer ziplock bags. I repack most food in them in order to reduce the garbage. Once the food is gone from them, they work good for collecting fire starting material.

[bramasoleiowa]

1st off: thank you for being a responsible role model and mentor as a scout leader.

Most of my camping experiences have been car-camping, where the car is not more than a quarter mile away from the campsite. A few overnight backpack trips, but that seems to be rarer than I wish it was.

Its not that hard to bring along a garbage bag or some grocery bags to throw stuff into to keep the inside of your pack clean if backpacking or the inside of your car clean when car camping.

Trailhead camping seems to be the worst. Even though there are some garbage facilities, you still find stuff left behind intentional or accidental. Hard to tell sometimes, since you can understand forgetting your shirt/flipflops/hat if packing at dusk after spending the day climbing the mountain.

I'll admit I've thrown some food waste into the fire, but its placed on a log/plank so we can watch it burn in that pyro-sense mentioned earlier in the thread.

I don't know how many times I've stirred the ashes after dousing with water and had melted/crumpled plastic or aluminum surface from previous campers.

[Jeepergeo]

I'm trying to do my part to keep our open spaces clean and, well,....open. In the back country, I go pretty much LNT and highly recommend this approach. So no camp fires, even where the the protectors allow them.

When car camping, like in an "improved" campground, or at the beach, yeah, I'lll have a fire, and a big one at that. These places have park aides and others that scoop these things out several times per season. So in a place like that, I'd let the kids burn a few things, but I'd hold off on things like C-RATS, propane bottles, etc., you know, this should be common sense, but what they hey, common sense is pretty uncommon these days. Of course, a smart adult Scouter knows to sit up wind.

[MikeB3542]

NVGreenGecko, on Sep 6 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

You pack it in, you pack it out. Period.




Take only pictures, leave only footprints.

Laudable, but a bit extreme.

So much depends on where you are, what you are doing. By all means, pack it all out when backcountry. If you are at an established campground, fire ring, etc., and fire conditions are good, my thinking is that non-recyclable plastics and paper are better off burned than packed out. The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem. (Kind of like electric vehicles -- sure, there's no tailpipe, but where do you suppose the electricity comes from?)

.

[Highland Horde]

I wont burn plastics or anything anymore. I did as a kid. I've been camping with friends who threw pop cans etc in the fire. No big deal we just dug them out in the morning after the fire had cooled.
(actually we discovered something strange...Cans of Pepsi will burn. Only Pepsi. not Rootbeer, or 7up)
anyway...
Pack it in - Pack it out

[Touchstone]

Quote

The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem.

Sorry, but I'll have to politely disagree with you, as well as most Federal Land Managers who subscribe to the notion of Leave No Trace.

It's about leaving an area in good or better shape than you left it for the next person to enjoy

Oh, and BTW, if you're thinking that LNT is just a bunch of hot air, dreamt up by a bunch of tree hugging long haired hippy types, here's the official stance on Geocaching:

Quote

The Center views geocaching as a fun and worthwhile recreational pursuit when done in accordance with land management agency regulations and with Leave No Trace in mind. As the popularity of geocaching has exploded over the past few years, land managers in many areas are seeing more impacts related to geocaching. However, because of geocaching, more and more people are enjoying the outdoors. Both people placing caches and people seeking caches need to research current regulations on geocaching for the areas where they wish to partake in this activity.

Cool about the Pepsi though. And here I thought the ultimate in carbonated beverage entertainment was Diet Coke and Mentos

[Highland Horde]

Touchstone, on Oct 25 2010, 07:56 PM, said:

Cool about the Pepsi though. And here I thought the ultimate in carbonated beverage entertainment was Diet Coke and Mentos

But this is an "empty" can. it heats up and flames come out of the inside of the can. No wasted beverage.
But the mentos is much more exciting

[ATMouse]

MikeB3542, on Oct 25 2010, 01:12 PM, said:

NVGreenGecko, on Sep 6 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

You pack it in, you pack it out. Period.




Take only pictures, leave only footprints.

Laudable, but a bit extreme.

So much depends on where you are, what you are doing. By all means, pack it all out when backcountry. If you are at an established campground, fire ring, etc., and fire conditions are good, my thinking is that non-recyclable plastics and paper are better off burned than packed out. The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem. (Kind of like electric vehicles -- sure, there's no tailpipe, but where do you suppose the electricity comes from?)

.

I also have to disagree. If there is a fire ring, you ought to keep it clean. I've carried out folks' trash too many times. If you can carry it in full, carry it out empty.



Why should I have to look at your trash that your tried to burn?

Or try to create a fire where there is so much rubbish around that you nearly need a rake to get a spot to base it on?

And cells in a dump don't create the toxic fumes you are creating by burning.

[briansnat]

ATMouse, on Oct 27 2010, 10:24 AM, said:

MikeB3542, on Oct 25 2010, 01:12 PM, said:

NVGreenGecko, on Sep 6 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

You pack it in, you pack it out. Period.




Take only pictures, leave only footprints.

Laudable, but a bit extreme.

So much depends on where you are, what you are doing. By all means, pack it all out when backcountry. If you are at an established campground, fire ring, etc., and fire conditions are good, my thinking is that non-recyclable plastics and paper are better off burned than packed out. The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem. (Kind of like electric vehicles -- sure, there's no tailpipe, but where do you suppose the electricity comes from?)

.

I also have to disagree. If there is a fire ring, you ought to keep it clean. I've carried out folks' trash too many times. If you can carry it in full, carry it out empty.



Why should I have to look at your trash that your tried to burn?

Or try to create a fire where there is so much rubbish around that you nearly need a rake to get a spot to base it on?

And cells in a dump don't create the toxic fumes you are creating by burning.

I agree. A lot of things don't burn completely. Whenever I'm at a site with an established fire ring there is invariably partially burnt rubbish in it. Flakes of aluminum, pieces of can and glass. Disgusting.

I admit to burning paper, because paper burns completely. Everything else gets packed out.

[TotemLake]

MikeB3542, on Oct 25 2010, 02:12 PM, said:

The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem. (Kind of like electric vehicles -- sure, there's no tailpipe, but where do you suppose the electricity comes from?)

.

This is pretty arrogant and has no forward thought process. Imagine a thousand people doing the same thing in the same spot. You'll end up with a mini landfill in an area not designated for it and the volunteers and staff looking after bad habits as this end up packing it out anyway.

But you're right in one sense. Packing out does move the problem. To a receptical and ultimately a landfill that was designated for it. Oh, and the day you can legitimately compare my electrical usage to your garbage burning in a campfire is a long way off.

[ATMouse]

TotemLake, on Oct 30 2010, 07:37 PM, said:

MikeB3542, on Oct 25 2010, 02:12 PM, said:

The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem. (Kind of like electric vehicles -- sure, there's no tailpipe, but where do you suppose the electricity comes from?)

.

This is pretty arrogant and has no forward thought process. Imagine a thousand people doing the same thing in the same spot. You'll end up with a mini landfill in an area not designated for it and the volunteers and staff looking after bad habits as this end up packing it out anyway.

But you're right in one sense. Packing out does move the problem. To a receptical and ultimately a landfill that was designated for it. Oh, and the day you can legitimately compare my electrical usage to your garbage burning in a campfire is a long way off.

And folks like me picking the trash out of the fire ring and carrying it out myself. Did it again this weekend. Couldn't get everything without a rake, but what I could do, I did.

[MikeB3542]

ATMouse, on Nov 1 2010, 02:49 AM, said:

TotemLake, on Oct 30 2010, 07:37 PM, said:

MikeB3542, on Oct 25 2010, 02:12 PM, said:

The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem. (Kind of like electric vehicles -- sure, there's no tailpipe, but where do you suppose the electricity comes from?)

.

This is pretty arrogant and has no forward thought process. Imagine a thousand people doing the same thing in the same spot. You'll end up with a mini landfill in an area not designated for it and the volunteers and staff looking after bad habits as this end up packing it out anyway.

But you're right in one sense. Packing out does move the problem. To a receptical and ultimately a landfill that was designated for it. Oh, and the day you can legitimately compare my electrical usage to your garbage burning in a campfire is a long way off.

And folks like me picking the trash out of the fire ring and carrying it out myself. Did it again this weekend. Couldn't get everything without a rake, but what I could do, I did.

NO NO NO!

I never advocated for hauling mass quantities of garbage into the wilderness as a means of disposal. When safe and appropriate, a bit of paper here and a styrofoam cup there is not the end of the world. The point of burning flammables isn't about leaving behind junk that won't burn. When sifting through the coals (I am assuming everyone sifts through the coals to make sure the fire is cold out), bits of metal and glass (which in lots of spots you aren't even supposed to be packing in anyway) get plucked out and put in the garbage and taken home/recycled.

But, think this through, folks...when you landfill plastic where do you suppose it goes? The trouble is way more than we care to imagine blows or washes away, causing mayhem elsewhere, mostly conveniently out of sight. This "out of sight, out of mind" mindset is pervasive, and in my opinion is the same mindset that views electric vehicles as "zero emission".

[TotemLake]

MikeB3542, on Nov 3 2010, 02:26 PM, said:

But, think this through, folks...when you landfill plastic where do you suppose it goes? The trouble is way more than we care to imagine blows or washes away, causing mayhem elsewhere, mostly conveniently out of sight. This "out of sight, out of mind" mindset is pervasive, and in my opinion is the same mindset that views electric vehicles as "zero emission".

Windblown and washed away debris from landfills is not nearly the problem as written here. I drive by 2 landfills in the local area to know this. Junk tossed or dumped overboard without using appropriate practices is. As for electric vehicles emission, it is a lot less than the alternative... per vehicle. The concept is to create a smaller carbon footprint.

The point of this thread though, is to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Burning a styro cup is not as an enironmentally friendly impact as one might think with it releasing toxic smoke and fine plastic (non-biodegradeable) ash into the area. It isn't just a total meltdown to be taken out as a lump. Now multiply that by many similar thinking people and the problem becomes more than just one.

[Renegade Knight]

If you burn it, it recycles a lot faster than putting it in a landfill. While I think there are some valid concerns about flying embers, simple precautions can resolve that fairly well.

Color me green and that means not filling landfills any faster than we need too. That said, bringing extra tires, washingmachines and such to burn is a bit much.

[John in Valley Forge]

When I was a Scout we were usually someplace with trash facilities reasonably nearby. After striking camp everyone would like up an arms length from the next guy and walk the site, policing up and debris. No many other troops did that.

Once though, back in '81, on a long canoe trip we had made camp along a beach, across from some city. Came across a bunch of trash left by others. We bagged it, either with the intent of paddling it out, or just to leave the bags piled together for TPTB to collect (like the way convicts leave trash bags along the highway). At some point in the evening, fueled by the fatigue of paddling and portaging on a drought shrunken river, a garbage bag ended up in the fire. Inside that bag were several cans. Cans of creamed corn. When they reached a critical temperature, they exploded, splattering everyone within 20 feet with steaming corn goo. It was a sight to see. Thankfully no one was injured.

Needless to say, it cut down on the "burn it all" attitude.

[MtnMutt-ProDuckShins]

Wait a minute! You mentioned you're a Scout Leader.

What has happened to a very important part of Scouting?

'Leave No Trace'

Has your Troop or even Pack leaders gone to Woodbadge or go to Roundtable?

Look in your Scout Handbook, Lead them, Teach them and Help them understand.

Yes, your leadership is a volunteer position and your payment is knowing you taught & encouraged young men to make this a better place.

[ATMouse]

MikeB3542, on Nov 3 2010, 01:26 PM, said:

ATMouse, on Nov 1 2010, 02:49 AM, said:

TotemLake, on Oct 30 2010, 07:37 PM, said:

MikeB3542, on Oct 25 2010, 02:12 PM, said:

The deal is that packing out only MOVES the problem. (Kind of like electric vehicles -- sure, there's no tailpipe, but where do you suppose the electricity comes from?)

.

This is pretty arrogant and has no forward thought process. Imagine a thousand people doing the same thing in the same spot. You'll end up with a mini landfill in an area not designated for it and the volunteers and staff looking after bad habits as this end up packing it out anyway.

But you're right in one sense. Packing out does move the problem. To a receptical and ultimately a landfill that was designated for it. Oh, and the day you can legitimately compare my electrical usage to your garbage burning in a campfire is a long way off.

And folks like me picking the trash out of the fire ring and carrying it out myself. Did it again this weekend. Couldn't get everything without a rake, but what I could do, I did.

NO NO NO!

I never advocated for hauling mass quantities of garbage into the wilderness as a means of disposal. When safe and appropriate, a bit of paper here and a styrofoam cup there is not the end of the world. The point of burning flammables isn't about leaving behind junk that won't burn. When sifting through the coals (I am assuming everyone sifts through the coals to make sure the fire is cold out), bits of metal and glass (which in lots of spots you aren't even supposed to be packing in anyway) get plucked out and put in the garbage and taken home/recycled.

But, think this through, folks...when you landfill plastic where do you suppose it goes? The trouble is way more than we care to imagine blows or washes away, causing mayhem elsewhere, mostly conveniently out of sight. This "out of sight, out of mind" mindset is pervasive, and in my opinion is the same mindset that views electric vehicles as "zero emission".

I gotta say that the hydrogen car stuff makes me as crazy as the electric car. The power it takes to isolate H comes from somewhere. It might be clean out the tailpipe but somewhere there is a power plant creating the energy needed for the process.

But back to burning in fire pits. The stink of burning styrofoam isn't enough to dissuade you?

I can't argue every aspect of garbage: the range of landfill cells all the way to open piles is too broad to pin down here.

But I know that if you can pack it in, you can pack it out. Period. Too many people DON'T sift thru the ashes and leave trash unburned. Just pack it out.

[Klatch]

MtnMutt, on Nov 6 2010, 08:21 AM, said:

Wait a minute! You mentioned you're a Scout Leader.

What has happened to a very important part of Scouting?

'Leave No Trace'

Has your Troop or even Pack leaders gone to Woodbadge or go to Roundtable?

Look in your Scout Handbook, Lead them, Teach them and Help them understand.

Yes, your leadership is a volunteer position and your payment is knowing you taught & encouraged young men to make this a better place.

+1. I was going to make this same reply until I came upon your reply. Training is the key.
NE-IV-23

[Jeepergeo]

MtnMutt, on 06 November 2010 - 05:21 AM, said:

Wait a minute! You mentioned you're a Scout Leader.

What has happened to a very important part of Scouting?
'Leave No Trace'

Has your Troop or even Pack leaders gone to Woodbadge or go to Roundtable?

Look in your Scout Handbook, Lead them, Teach them and Help them understand.

Yes, your leadership is a volunteer position and your payment is knowing you taught & encouraged young men to make this a better place.

It can't be spelled out any better than that! Thanks MtnMutt.

Jeepergeo, Eagle Scout (1973) and still Scouting.

This post has been edited by Jeepergeo: 01 January 2011 - 07:09 AM

[Jeepergeo]

Touchstone, on 25 October 2010 - 07:56 PM, said:

Sorry, but I'll have to politely disagree with you, as well as most Federal Land Managers who subscribe to the notion of Leave No Trace.

It's about leaving an area in good or better shape than you left it for the next person to enjoy

Oh, and BTW, if you're thinking that LNT is just a bunch of hot air, dreamt up by a bunch of tree hugging long haired hippy types, here's the official stance on Geocaching:

Cool about the Pepsi though. And here I thought the ultimate in carbonated beverage entertainment was Diet Coke and Mentos

My observation is that "Federal Land Managers" have not done a good job of implementing LNT themselves or getting many Federal land users to follow LNT. When on Federal land, I see all sorts of preventable impacts, including impacts left by Federal operations, everything from trail crew camp impacts to road work impacts.

Many forest areas preach distribution of impacts. This technique basically ends up with the entire resource area being scarred and degraded. This technique means users will see impacts everywhere, including the trails, camps, lakes, and streams.

In contrast, Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico manages its resource via concentration of impacts. With the Philmont approach, most of the resource remains pristine, while a very small portion of the resource takes the user impact. With this approach, the few available dollars can be used to stabilize the impacted areas. This approah means that along the trail and at rivers, lakes, and streams, one will see little if anything in the way of impacts . When in the concentrated impact areas like camps, sure, there are impacts, but one can also see the efforts being make to control those impacts, something Philmont does successfully.

Philmont Scout Ranch is heavily used, probably equal to or greater than many Federal lands. So if the Scouts can do it, perhaps Federal Land Managers should check out the Scouts and see how LNT can be done successfully.

[Indiangrass]

I started reading this thread but didn't go through all of it. I hope this isn't redundant.
I agree with the last post and add; that I've helped lead Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. We teach, preach and, practice LNT. I'll add to this that most properly managed campgrounds will "rest" areas on an "every-several-years" basis so that an area can recover. If you are in a limited space (i.e; mountain peak) then you should go with the plan (plan before you go and go with your plan) ...plan, to carry out everything possible. ALL waste! Disgusting? Well, camping next to someones latrine is disgusting too. We pick up after our dog in our neighborhood ...plan to pick up after yourself where it would be in other peoples way. Get over it, you'll figure out how to manage.

[perdidochas]

Renegade Knight, on 03 November 2010 - 02:47 PM, said:

If you burn it, it recycles a lot faster than putting it in a landfill. While I think there are some valid concerns about flying embers, simple precautions can resolve that fairly well.

Color me green and that means not filling landfills any faster than we need too. That said, bringing extra tires, washingmachines and such to burn is a bit much.

It's a matter of how much space you ruin. An additional styrofoam cup isn't going to hurt the landfill, which is land we sacrificed for that purpose. Burning that styrofoam cup does a bit of harm in an area that we don't want to sacrifice.

[diggingest_dogg616]

I personally think it's kind of obnoxious to go past a campfire ring (whether it's out in the middle of nowhere or at an actual campground) and find trash in it that isn't the sort of thing that actually burns.

I've thrown things into a fire just to see if it burns. I've thrown styrofoam cups into a fire and have watched them melt away. If I woke up the next morning and, lo and behold, there's my cup and it didn't just disappear, then I would take it out and throw it away. I hate being out in the desert and seeing beer bottles and cans and plastic in a campfire ring that obviously weren't burning and no one cared enough to take it with them. (It's equally as obnoxious if it's just something that someone tossed over their shoulder or out their truck window)

[DragonsWest]

I seldom have fires, but at the last night of a week roughing it I may build a little one just to look whistfully into its glowing embers, contemplating the impending return to the civilization. Wood, whatever matchsticks I've tossed into the pit from starting my MSR Dragonfly and the few paper towels (usually use the old paper towels and match sticks as starter anywho.)

Amazed some of the stuff we've cleaned out of Yosemite campground fire pits during the Summer CITO events. Remains of cell phones, keys (bet they wonder where those got to!) coins, lots of foil, melted plastic, melted aluminum from cans. It didn't go away, it changed. Some of it is in the air and some of it is still in the ashes.

[KyleYankan]

I agree with not wanting to burn excessively non-combustible items, but at the same time - why do people think burning wood is so safe? Burning wood releases CO2, as well as fine particulates. Australia's pollution is 60% wood particulate from burning wood. Also, wood contains toxins and carcinogens when burned. The U.S. EPA estimates the cancer risk from wood smoke is twelve times greater than that from equal amounts of tobacco smoke.

So just because you cut it down from the forest, or found some dead off the trail doesn't make wood a safer, or environmentally friendlier action. My personal belief is in small amounts, some scraps are allowed, as long as they burn to ash, or are cleaned up afterwards.

[Indiangrass]

KyleYankan, on 19 April 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

I agree with not wanting to burn excessively non-combustible items, but at the same time - why do people think burning wood is so safe? Burning wood releases CO2, as well as fine particulates. Australia's pollution is 60% wood particulate from burning wood. Also, wood contains toxins and carcinogens when burned. The U.S. EPA estimates the cancer risk from wood smoke is twelve times greater than that from equal amounts of tobacco smoke.

So just because you cut it down from the forest, or found some dead off the trail doesn't make wood a safer, or environmentally friendlier action. My personal belief is in small amounts, some scraps are allowed, as long as they burn to ash, or are cleaned up afterwards.

1. Burning wood is CO2 neutral (I'll leave you to look into it) and 2. How can you be concerned with toxins from wood smoke but allow small amounts of "scrap" to be burned? Camp fires being discussed here, no matter how large, never reach the temperatures needed to destroy the compounds you seem worried about. A plastic spoon burned will kill you faster than a cord of wood, if you breath it in deeply. Neither will knock you down immediately so many people don't see the harm. Caution is never a waste of effort. Measure the risks and act accordingly with the knowledge that those that never risk anything, never do anything. We are animals of this planet and entitled to use it. We are wiser than most if not all other animals and so some of us think we should use our resources more wisely. Face the fact: In living our lives, we make a mess. What is important is that we endeavor to minimize our mess and that we attempt to clean up after ourselves. Many individuals never reach the level of maturity it takes to take responsibility for their own mess. But; on the whole, we (America) do more and spend more time and money cleaning up this planet than dose any other society. We make a bigger mess than most and yet we are cleaner than most. We've prospered more than most and we feel the pain of the cost more than most. All being in line with what I've stated above. So; I don't fear an evening's campfire but I'm careful not to burn garbage which I can pack out to a sanitary landfill.

[DannyCaffeine]

Plastic and Styrofoam can give off toxic fumes when burned.

[Nubcakes]

Couple things;

* Rotten flesh of dead animals is far more toxic than anything produced by burning polymers. There is a reason why Rotten flesh is considered highly toxic, and can't be cooked to a safe level.
* All man made things came from nature. We didn't use some sort of black magic to summon plastics from hell or where ever else you thing we might have summoned them from.
* Landfills are like a source of energy once they fill them up and seal them. As everything decomposes it produces quite abit of methane. Not all methane from landfill is used for energy, but it is in some areas.
* Small bits of pollution are handled far faster easier by nature than large clumps of pollution.
* Some recycling does more harm than good because of the resources wasted to get the materials being recycled from the end-user to the recycling plant.

Personally I don't take non-reusable food/drink containers with me when I go hiking/geocaching.

The only times I have fires are on my own land. I do toss all kinds of crap into the fires I have at my home, but afterward I scrape the remains up and it goes into the trash. Call me paranoid but having a fire puts a red flag up alerting everything and everyone in the area that someone is where your fire is. If I am hiking/backpacking the last thing I want others to know is that I am out there. After being mugged at gunpoint while backpacking, I generally don't like to deal with people I don't know while outside society(in the city)

[TotemLake]

This article is relevant to this discussion. It isn't just about toxicity. It is also about the hazard you can unwittingly create.

http://seattletimes....sentencing.html

[B+L]

TotemLake, on 25 April 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

This article is relevant to this discussion. It isn't just about toxicity. It is also about the hazard you can unwittingly create.

http://seattletimes....sentencing.html

It really is just about the toxicity, but stupidity is close behind.

[TotemLake]

Well yah, anyone caught in wood smoke knows (cough cough) how bad it can get. However, the OPs original question was regarding putting trash in a fire, not readily available wood for making a campfire. The article I posted, is a direct answer to that question in the extreme that folks tend to take for granted under normal conditions.

This post has been edited by TotemLake: 28 April 2012 - 11:10 AM

[mvarley84]

We burn our trash when we are camping...We never have much trash...maybe some hot dog wrapper, a couple cans of pop, chip bags etc.

We have camping utensils and plates that we re-use obviously, and our water is hauled in canteens or retrieved from a nearby water source and boiled.