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email/letter writing campaign to Garmin Dear Garmin, why does the Colorado lack any of your previous quality a

#1 User is offline   Team Chinook 

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 10:44 AM

Ok;

The unit funtions ok. I was a little bummed that while walking along the streets it couldn't get me within 50 feet of the actual street...but the data cable thing is really irksome. So I'm going to write an email to the executives and would ask all disgruntled Colorado/Oregon owners (previous too) to write as well. Nothing like a nasty gram to wake up a sleeping giant.

I intend to keep my message short, non derogetory, explain my past use of Garmin products, my keen interest in future Garmin products, and my utter shock at their delivery of the Colorado and Oregon units. Then ask them if they plan to address the quality issues and how they will address them and make it clear that my return of this unit will mean no future Garmin units and let them know the user communities on the Internet feel very strongly as I do.

Their email are first.last@garmin.com based on what I was able to pull up for three folks:
Dan Bartel
Vice President, Worldwide Sales
Garmin International Inc.
1200 E 151st St
Olathe, KS 66062-3426
913.397.8200
dan.bartel@garmin.com

Gary Kelley
Vice President - Marketing
gary.kelley@garmin.com


Brian Pokorny
Vice President Operations
brian.pokorny@garmin.com

Assuming these would be the same:

Dr. Min Kao, Chairman & CEO
min.kao@garmin.com

Clifton Pemble, President and Chief Operating Officer
clifton.pemble@garmin.com

Brian Pokorny, Vice President, Operations
brian.pokorny@garmin.com

Most of these will get screened by an admin, but if they are worded professionally and with some teeth, I expect they will be seen by the execs.

#2 User is offline   Team Chinook 

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 11:12 AM

(Copy of email sent)
To: Dan Bartel, Vice President, Worldwide Sales
Garmin International Inc.
1200 E 151st St
Olathe, KS 66062-3426
913.397.8200
dan.bartel@garmin.com

cc: Gary Kelley, Vice President - Marketing
Brian Pokorny, Vice President Operations
Dr. Min Kao, Chairman & CEO
Clifton Pemble, President and Chief Operating Officer
Brian Pokorny, Vice President, Operations


Dear Sirs;

I wanted to let you know my extreme displeasure with the Garmin Colorado. I purchased the unit yesterday after much consternation as many of the Internet user communities dealing with GPS topics have blasted the quality of the Colorado and Oregon. Let me say, I love the look and feel of the Colorado (400T) but am really shocked at the quality of the unit. How could you ever expect people to purchase a Garmin phone when the newest products to come out of Garmin are so shoddy?

Many software/firmware issues appear to be addressed with some updates that Garmin has produced to date, but why on earth would a company with the reputation of Garmin release to market technology so flawed? Particularly after setting up a tie-in and marketing campaign with geocoaching.com?

My unit won't reliably connect to my PC (via the USB cable supplied) to transfer data. This strikes me as a physical connection issue perhaps due to quality of components used and/or tolerances in manufacturing. Other Garmin units I've used in the past (serial) had no such issues.

The myriad other issues, so far not reliably addressed through field updates, are very concerning. As a consumer, and stockholder of Garmin, I trust you will address these quality defects near term, as I REALLY want to own the Colorado, but must return this poor quality unit.

I would be keenly interested in your thoughtful response and your intentions with regard to the Colorado.

Warm regards...

#3 User is offline   Team Chinook 

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 07:00 PM

Wow! I received an email back from the Garmin VP of Sales tonight (Sunday) thanking me for providing them with constructive feedback. I have to say I'm happy to hear back from him so quickly. I have some follow up information to provide him and hopefully they will take that to heart and act accordingly. (fingers crossed).

#4 User is offline   sjn951 

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 07:08 PM

Great job! I was considering waiting for a Colorado when I purchased my Legend HCx. After reading about issues with the Colorado I'm glad I went the way I did. My Legend has been flawless so far.

#5 User is offline   CelticDave 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 03:16 AM

Garmin has not learned anything from the release of the Colorado if they are not willing to give information to their customers about problems that most of us who have owned the Colorados have encountered. The marketing vs readiness of the product to go to the market was one of the worse I have encountered. Does everyone remember that when the Colorado came out it would not even show caches on the map? I don't understand why Garmin has taken this approach with their customers. The release of the Oregon has not been much better. They still refuse to give technical information about the unit because why? is it that much of a trade secret? Delorme on the other hand has been very forthcoming with information about the PN-40 that has not even hit the market yet. With REI and WalMart blowing the Colorado series out with big discounts it would appear that the Colorado will have the shortest lifespan of any GPS ever. Wow, who ever thought it would be Garmin? If Garmin continues on this path they will only end up in one place, that is out of the hand held GPS market. Garmin, there are much easier ways to do that, that don't tarnish or destroy your reputation as a company. So while we all wait for Garmin to do the right thing and treat it's customers with the respect we all deserve (for beta testing the Colorado for them) I think we will see Delorme nipping at their heels as a leader in hand held GPS. Only time will tell but I for one think it is time that Garmin gets it together. This apparently also holds true with other Garmin product lines with the Nuviphone now being released in the first "half" of 2009. Although, if it is not ready yet perhaps Garmin has learned something? This is about as much effort as I am willing to put into this but feel free to use it in your correspondence with Garmin executives.

#6 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 07:56 AM

Thanks for putting together all that contact information. I will definately be writing them about my experiences with my CO 400T. I want to make it perfectly clear to them what a terrible product release this has been.

#7 User is offline   Renegade Knight 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 08:16 AM

View PostTeam Chinook, on Aug 24 2008, 01:12 PM, said:

...My unit won't reliably connect to my PC (via the USB cable supplied) to transfer data. This strikes me as
a physical connection issue perhaps due to quality of components used and/or tolerances in manufacturing. Other Garmin units I've used in the past (serial) had no such issues....


I find this to be a Windows Vista issue as I can't get Vista to hook up to anything reliably. Garmin has enough of it's own issues. Of course if you are running XP...then none of that applies. My communications with Garmin (excepting support) as a whole have been disspointing.

This post has been edited by Renegade Knight: 25 August 2008 - 08:17 AM


#8 User is offline   Cacheoholic 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 09:10 AM

View PostTeam Chinook, on Aug 24 2008, 10:44 AM, said:

I was a little bummed that while walking along the streets it couldn't get me within 50 feet of the actual street

If you have a 400t you are looking at topo maps. Street location is not accurate on topo maps. You need City Navigator maps.

#9 User is offline   verdugan 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 09:21 AM

View PostCeltic Cacher, on Aug 25 2008, 04:16 AM, said:

With REI and WalMart blowing the Colorado series out with big discounts it would appear that the Colorado will have the shortest lifespan of any GPS ever. Wow, who ever thought it would be Garmin?


Take a deep breath. The Triton is in worse shape. Try buying a Triton at REI and let me know how it goes.

#10 User is offline   Team Chinook 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 12:21 PM

Ok. Here's an update:

After the initial response from Garmin VP of Sales I worked with the esteemed wiki master(s) and provided Garmin with a list of issues that g-o-cachers, and others, have compiled for both the Colorado and Oregon. That has now been sent to Garmin's VP of Sales as well as a Colorado support guy who called me this afternoon.

He believes my USB flakiness is indeed a hardware issue.

So now we wait and see. Hopefully my new 400T gets here soon and is w/o fault. Thanks Scott and all the others that did the fine work on both of those wikispaces. W/o their work it would have been much much harder to provide Garmin with a concise list of issues. Hat's off to G-O-Cachers and other wiki masters!

#11 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 12:29 PM

View PostTeam Chinook, on Aug 25 2008, 12:21 PM, said:

Ok. Here's an update:

After the initial response from Garmin VP of Sales I worked with the esteemed wiki master(s) and provided Garmin with a list of issues that g-o-cachers, and others, have compiled for both the Colorado and Oregon. That has now been sent to Garmin's VP of Sales as well as a Colorado support guy who called me this afternoon.



Are you telling us that Garmin was not aware of this forum, of g.o. cacher's forum, and of the dissatisfaction that we've been griping about here for months? I'm not sure if I'd rather hear that they were simply ignoring us than to hear that they were not even trying to see what we thought!

#12 User is offline   Team Chinook 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 12:47 PM

I'm certain none of the executives I emailed frequest gc.com, let alone any other enthusiast site. They are running a business. There are likely lower level folks there that geocache and/or are enthusiasts that have stumbled across these type of sites, but invariably this stuff doesn't make it up very high for a variety of reasons.

Product management and marketing work w/ the business units to define features for each product line, developers have schedules they work towards, bug fixes, etc, and many of the field complaints aren't voiced, get screened out, never make it to the right people, etc.

#13 User is offline   g-o-cashers 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 01:02 PM

View PostTeam Chinook, on Aug 25 2008, 04:21 PM, said:

Hat's off to G-O-Cachers and other wiki masters!

My pleasure. Thanks for finding these guys and starting a constructive dialog about the issues. Anything I can do to support this, just let me know. I want to see issues addressed as much as anyone.

View Postknowschad, on Aug 25 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

Are you telling us that Garmin was not aware of this forum, of g.o. cacher's forum, and of the dissatisfaction that we've been griping about here for months? I'm not sure if I'd rather hear that they were simply ignoring us than to hear that they were not even trying to see what we thought!


After working in similar industries over the years I'm not surprised. Typically these folks are the last to know about these kinds of efforts and rest assured they aren't trolling the web looking for problems. The trick is to find the right people and many times the response can be positive, thanks go to Team Chinook for finding an open door!

GO$Rs

#14 User is offline   Ratsneve 

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  Posted 25 August 2008 - 01:43 PM

View Postg-o-cashers, on Aug 25 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

After working in similar industries over the years I'm not surprised. Typically these folks are the last to know about these kinds of efforts and rest assured they aren't trolling the web looking for problems. The trick is to find the right people and many times the response can be positive, thanks go to Team Chinook for finding an open door!

GO$Rs

I'll take the more sinister skeptical approach and suggest that at some level in Garmin they know exactly what was wrong with these units from day one when beta testing gave up and the stuff was kicked out the door. I think Garmin knows how to blow smoke around like no other...

Tell me, did your executive contacts mention that there is a new software update in the works due out in a month or so that directly addresses and fixes the barometric pressue tracking when the unit is turned off and the drifting and accuracy issues?

Good luck everyone. This is what, month eight? They should be starting to wrap up some of the Colorado troubles soon. Meanwhile there are a number of Oregon owners that are really happy with there units.

I know this hasn't been helpful but it beats praying.

This post has been edited by Ratsneve: 25 August 2008 - 01:46 PM


#15 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 04:25 PM

To: Dan Bartel, Vice President, Worldwide Sales
Garmin International Inc.
1200 E 151st St
Olathe, KS 66062-3426
913.397.8200
dan.bartel@garmin.com

cc: Gary Kelley, Vice President - Marketing
Brian Pokorny, Vice President Operations
Dr. Min Kao, Chairman & CEO
Clifton Pemble, President and Chief Operating Officer


Gentlemen,

I am writing to let you know of my extreme dissatisfaction with my Colorado 400T GPS receiver. I bought the Colorado for the express purpose of geocaching, and was immediately attracted to it because of its built-in geocaching features. I admit that I had read some complaints on the geocaching and other gps-related forums, but wrote most of it off as people expecting too much. But after owning one for a few months, I have to agree wholeheartedly with most of the complaints, both with the unit itself, and with the ways that Garmin marketed the unit and has failed to deal with many of the issues in a timely manner. I am also dissapointed that Garmin chose to release the Oregon model before the issues with the Colorado had been completely worked out.

Let me add that this is my 5th Garmin GPS. I began with the trusty old "blue Legend". When I upgraded to a Legend Cx, I gave the "blue" away (word of mouth advertising for Garmin). The Cx was less than 6 months old when you released the HCx. Frustrated with signal loss in deep cover with the Cx, I reached deep into my billfold and purchased the HCx. I also own a Garmin Nuvi 200W which I am quite satisfied with.

To begin with, I was disappointed in functionality that had been available in former models, but not in the "upgrade": Waypoint averaging, the ability to edit the coordinates for a geocache, the ability to make a marked waypoint behave like a geocache, the ability to delete a geocache.

Other issues that I have with it are more along the lines of general functionality. The "field notes" are great, but the "text wheel" entry is an interface that belongs in the Hall of Shame! I'd like to ask if any of you have ever tried to enter a "real life" note into that window, and do it in a timely manner.

Likewise, waypoint editing: The user is shown the entire coordinates in a single text box that must be scrolled to see and/or edit the coordinates.


Above, I touched on a feature that is practically essential to geocaching, and that is the ability to edit the coordinates for a geocache. We have cache types called "multi-caches", where all we know when we start out is the coordinates to the first stage, which will then yield the coordinates for the next stage. With ALL previous Garmin units, the user, once the first stage was found, could, and would, simply edit the stage #1 coordinates to the coordinates for the next stage, and then hit Goto. Now, they must hit the shortcut wheel, scroll to the Mark Waypoint shortcut, mark it to the current coordinates, then edit it for the next stage, then hit Goto. And then, once that stage (or the cache final) has been found, the user must once again scroll back to the initial geocache in order to log is as found, since they are not able to change the marked waypoint to a geocache and have it behave the same as one.


These paragraphs have outlines some of the causes of my frustration, but what you need to understand more than any details as those, is that I, and other users, if the geocaching forums are any measure, are extremely angry that Garmin essentially used us as "beta testers" for your product, and paid a very steep monetary price for it, as well. Fortunately for me, while I paid full retail price for my unit, I bought it from a place that will allow me to return it with no penalty to me. And I intend to do so at the soonest opportunity.



Sincerely,

(me)

#16 User is offline   ryguyMN 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 04:47 PM

Good work fellas with the contact information! Hopefully this will get the ball rolling at Garmin. Glad to hear another update is in the works according to what I read in another thread and hopefully it will be released before too long! Drifting and the barometer not recording properly when off seem to be the biggest issues, which I hope are finally laid to rest in the update.

#17 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 05:02 PM

At 8 PM (note... that is IN THE EVENING!) I got the following reply. I think that there is some real eye-opening going on around there!

Mr. (me):



Thank you for this feedback. It is very frustrating to hear of your problems and dissatisfaction with the Colorado unit.



We have gotten a number of complaints similar to yours over the past few days. We are not at all happy to have dissatisfied customers. We will be meeting with our engineering team tomorrow to review these issues. Hopefully, you will see some improvements coming shortly.



Regards,

Dan


#18 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 06:45 PM

I sent the following email after receiving the reply from Mr Bartel:

At the risk of wearing out my welcome, may I suggest that you (and/or your engineers) create anonymous accounts on the www.geocaching.com site and check out the forum threads regarding the Colorado? I think that you will be very much enlightened. Much like the Prince and the Pauper, I suppose.

For example, here is a thread that I started, discussing options for the awkward method of entering text:
http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=198115&hl=

Here is one of several threads on the lack of waterproofness:
http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=198912&hl=


At 9:42 PM (CST) I received this reply. Brief, to be sure, but it is clear that he read it:

Mr Farmer, I will pass this information on to our engineers. Hopefully, we will have some encouraging news for you shortly.

#19 User is offline   ryguyMN 

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 08:42 PM

View Postverdugan, on Aug 25 2008, 09:21 AM, said:

View PostCeltic Cacher, on Aug 25 2008, 04:16 AM, said:

With REI and WalMart blowing the Colorado series out with big discounts it would appear that the Colorado will have the shortest lifespan of any GPS ever. Wow, who ever thought it would be Garmin?


Take a deep breath. The Triton is in worse shape. Try buying a Triton at REI and let me know how it goes.


Yes, the Triton is in worse shape, but with Magellan's track record, that's expected. I feel bad for people who bought those units not knowing the company's rep. It's like walking into a trap. Magellan has been on the decline since the release of eXplorists, over three years ago. Their support is almost non-existent, not to mention the language barriers of trying to communicate with someone whose native language is not English. Software and hardware registeration issues are just the beginning, along with lack of firmware updates, and a small software selection making it difficult to find anything current outside of the National Geographic maps and the recently released AccuTerra topos.

Garmin has always held itself to a high standard when it comes to product quality and support. That's what sold me coming over from Magellan products. Unfortunately, over the last year, Garmin has been on the decline. It's difficult to make an argument on the contrary. It's a shame really to see the complaints mounting up and buggy products that go unfixed. That's just not good business. When you purchase a product, you are also paying for support. The Colorado, and the Oregon for that matter, leave a lot to be desired as products that are supposed to be top-of-the-line.

This post has been edited by ryguyMN: 25 August 2008 - 09:14 PM


#20 User is offline   Barnie's Band of Gold 

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 05:48 AM

With a lack of competition in the handheld market, what is Garmin's motivation to continue to outperform? Business is all about maximizing profits. Are any of you Colorado owners going to switch to Magellan??

Not likely.

Perhaps those that bought the Colorado and Triton AFTER reading all the bad reviews and commentary should be writing themselves a letter LOL!!

When Garmin does read these forums they will find they are the best (albeit of a bad bunch). Unless and until YOU STOP BUYING the Colorado (and Oregon) things will not change.

#21 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 06:15 AM

View PostBarnie's Band of Gold, on Aug 26 2008, 05:48 AM, said:

When Garmin does read these forums they will find they are the best (albeit of a bad bunch). Unless and until YOU STOP BUYING the Colorado (and Oregon) things will not change.


... OR start returning them.

Any company that thinks that they don't need to worry about competition is horribly doomed to fail. If there is no competition at the moment, there soon will be. I think your cynicism is misplaced.

#22 User is offline   fmajor007 

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 06:48 AM

Large-scale CONSUMER returns will most assuredly get a companies attention. While i know little about GPS units, i have seen how returns affect a companies bottom line. Something else to consider is Garmin may be looking to scale back investments in hand-held devices opting for mobile devices. I'm not sure i'd put much stock in that idea, but still it may be Garmin is moving toward.

All the same, when consumer returns sky-rocket, Project Managers begin to get e-mails from Regional Sales Managers, significant retailers and maybe a "Hello _____, So tell me whats going on with our ______ devices?" from a VP - could be Sales, Operations, name your area of interest.

These Project Managers are soon having meetings with their engineers and tech-support staff and the next thing you know, there is a software (or firmware) update available.

If Product Returns for a "line" continue to grow, retailers will also balk as their VALUED CUSTOMERS rant and rave in the store (or go somewhere else!!!!). They will stop carrying a brand with minimal hesitation. I've seen it happen with backpacking and mountaineering equipment and recently in the consumer film photography industry with Fuji stomping all over Kodak where major chain stores are dumping Kodak film in favor of Fuji. Granted, film as a "going concern" is transitioning it's appeal, but the brand dumping is happening all the same.

Just my $.02

frank

This post has been edited by fmajor007: 26 August 2008 - 07:01 AM


#23 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:14 AM

View Postfmajor007, on Aug 26 2008, 06:48 AM, said:

These Project Managers are soon having meetings with their engineers and tech-support staff and the next thing you know, there is a software (or firmware) update available.


Exactly. From Dan Bartel, Vice President, Worldwide Sales, Garmin:

Quote

We have gotten a number of complaints similar to yours over the past few days. We are not at all happy to have dissatisfied customers. We will be meeting with our engineering team tomorrow to review these issues. Hopefully, you will see some improvements coming shortly.



#24 User is offline   Ratsneve 

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  Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:48 AM

View PostBarnie's Band of Gold, on Aug 26 2008, 06:48 AM, said:

When Garmin does read these forums they will find they are the best (albeit of a bad bunch). Unless and until YOU STOP BUYING the Colorado (and Oregon) things will not change.

Garmin isn't going to read these forums. They are afraid of them and it takes a lot of someones time. They know that there are always unhappy product users and that _some_ problems get exagerated or distorted and they just are not going to use forums--even geocaching.com. Heck, Garmin has their own forum at MotionBased where the nuvi, CO, and OR aren't even mentioned/discussed and there is virtually zero traffic of any sort and they do nothing with it--I wonder why? They need to shock-and-awe'd.

This post has been edited by Ratsneve: 26 August 2008 - 11:56 AM


#25 User is offline   RRLover 

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 02:17 PM

View PostRatsneve, on Aug 26 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

View PostBarnie's Band of Gold, on Aug 26 2008, 06:48 AM, said:

When Garmin does read these forums they will find they are the best (albeit of a bad bunch). Unless and until YOU STOP BUYING the Colorado (and Oregon) things will not change.

Garmin isn't going to read these forums. They are afraid of them and it takes a lot of someones time. They know that there are always unhappy product users and that _some_ problems get exagerated or distorted and they just are not going to use forums--even geocaching.com. Heck, Garmin has their own forum at MotionBased where the nuvi, CO, and OR aren't even mentioned/discussed and there is virtually zero traffic of any sort and they do nothing with it--I wonder why? They need to shock-and-awe'd.

There is at least one forum where (whether officially sanctioned or not I don't know) a Garmin techie shows
a presence :

http://www.advrider....ad.php?t=331421

Norm

#26 User is offline   randyrucker 

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 07:33 PM

After walking around in circles in the rain because the thing had drifted about 300 feet off I was ready to bounce it off a rock. I took my Colorado back to REI in May. I had it for about 2 weeks. What a pathetic device. It has so many problems they will never be fixed by firmware changes. Some of you guys are amazing though if, by begging Garmin to fix the myriad of problems that these units have, you think they actually will. I can tell you it is cheaper to scrap a product line than to take it back to R&D and try to do major modifications on it. Not to mention the bad reputation the units are getting now is resulting in slow sales. Garmin will probably have to do some deep discounts by Christmas if they intend on clearing the inventory of Colorado's. I really don't think any Garmin reps are aware or care about internet forums regarding their product line. They have never needed to before. Previous Garmin GPS units worked as advertised. I am however impressed by that Delorme tech rep, I think his name is Chris. He seems to be active on every forum I've looked at and he answers all the questions that are put to him. The PN-40 looks like a great product for geocaching. My advice to you Colorado owners: Stop whinning about how bad your unit is. Its not going to get better. You bought it AND kept it when you should have taken it back. Get over it, put it behind you, and go ebay the thing. My money is on the PN-40. :unsure:

#27 User is offline   CelticDave 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 06:26 AM

I agree that Garmin engineers know exactly what the issues are and that they can't be fixed by firmware. My wife and I have have owned four Colorados and have returned all of them. Garmin could have expanded on the proven 60 and 76 product line but chose to go to an entirely new platform of stuffing Nuvi or a very Nuvi like operating system into a new handheld design and released it with very little or any product testing. If you have any doubt that Garmin's problems are only with their handheld product line just do a search for the Nuviphone, or their stock prices. I would guess that the hand held market is probably their smallest and least profitable to begin with. It is too bad that they have allowed their name to now be used in the same vein as Magellen. I had contact with Garmin's tech support on multiple occasions and was never satisified with their responses of "we will send that to our engineers". For me the biggest thing that Garmin could do is to be honest with all of us and tell us what the problems are. After eight months, any of the issues they had with the release should have been addressed by now. If now suddenly after eight months because the execs finally know that their customers are not happy and there is a sudden fix all firmware patch I will be even more concerned. If that is the case then heads should be rolling in Garmin for whoever allowed this to go so far without being addressed.
In the mean time Delorme appears to be the name to watch with the PN-40 now set for release on 10/15/2008. I have also corresponded with Chris from Delorme and they appear to really be listening to their customers and potential customers. Looks like Garmin has about a month and a half at this point to show their customers that they do care about their products and more importantly, their customers.

#28 User is offline   verdugan 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 06:42 AM

rguy,

I'm not disagreeing with you about the issues in the CO/OR. I was just addressing your comment that the CO will have the shortest lifespan of any GPS. That is simply not true. Yes, there are issues, but the sky is not falling.

#29 User is offline   jmedlock 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 07:07 AM

Garmin has spun-off its handheld GPS organization -- it's called DeLorme. :unsure:

But seriously...

#30 User is offline   Grasscatcher 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 08:29 AM

Just KNOW that there is a reason that Delorme has such a small market share.....software and hardware both.

Historically, THEY tell YOU what you want and need, not the other way around. That SEEMS to be changing. The PN-40 introduction in Oct, and the following reactions will be very interesting to watch. If that unit is as good as it sound like it will be, Delorme better be ready to (continue to...) make some major changes very quickly.
If, and when, "the masses" of new customers start responding to real or perceived problems they will either sink or swim.

Spend some serious time reading the Delorme Forums about map/data transfers, and aquisition times/ signal reception . Maybe what Delorme users are willing to "put up with" or "settle for" or "consider acceptable" is just different.

Compatibility with third party developers of other softwares is just about non existent.

However, after all of that, I may still try a PN-40 in October, but you can bet I'll get it at REI for obvious reasons.

#31 User is offline   jmedlock 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 10:14 AM

View PostGrasscatcher, on Aug 27 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

Just KNOW that there is a reason that Delorme has such a small market share.....software and hardware both.

Historically, THEY tell YOU what you want and need, not the other way around.



It seems that you may be implying that Garmin is perhaps different than DeLorme?

It seems to me that both companies try to figure out what their consumers "need", and then deliver whatever they decide will fit in their design cycle. I can find any number of posts complaining about "Why doesn't [Garmin || DeLorme || Magellan || blahBlah] have feature [x]?"

:huh:

This post has been edited by jmedlock: 27 August 2008 - 10:15 AM


#32 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 10:17 AM

Has anyone else written to Garmin based on this thread? And if so, have you also received repies from them?

#33 User is offline   freeday 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 10:33 AM

View Postverdugan, on Aug 27 2008, 06:42 AM, said:

... Yes, there are issues, but the sky is not falling.

This is correct - :huh: - because there is no more sky for the cOlOrado.

#34 User is offline   trainlove 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 10:57 AM

Dear Garmin,
Can you possibly spare some of your programmers and let them work for Magellan. They really need good programmers of GPSr's and especially ones who understand the WAAS system. No, wait, perhaps you did send saboteurs there and that's why Magellan, your competitor, is just so bad.

TrainLove,
A Magellan user who still has not replaced my Gold, even though I use a Garmin GPS12 and GPS48 as backup units.

#35 User is offline   Low Bat 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 10:59 AM

We can speculate til the cows come home on who at Garmin knew what and when they knew about it. If the VP of marketing now has a list in hand of known issues compiled from the hard work of members of this board then I say this is good news! Maybe Garmin will take more notice of this board and it's wealth of information. They can certainly learn a lot on how their products are performing by what their customers are saying about them.

I belong to another forum call CandlePowerForums (CPF) that's all about flashlights. Some of the manufacturers read this forum and it's not uncommon for someone at the R and D level to post (Coleman for example). I wish we had that kind of interaction with Garmin on this board.

#36 User is offline   Tigerz 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 11:49 AM

View Posttrainlove, on Aug 27 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

Dear Garmin,
Can you possibly spare some of your programmers and let them work for Magellan. They really need good programmers of GPSr's and especially ones who understand the WAAS system. No, wait, perhaps you did send saboteurs there and that's why Magellan, your competitor, is just so bad.

TrainLove,
A Magellan user who still has not replaced my Gold, even though I use a Garmin GPS12 and GPS48 as backup units.

At one time or another, my wife and I have owned a Magellan Map 330, Magellan Meridian, Garmin 60C, Garmin 60CSx, Garmin Nuvi 750, and a Garmin CO 400T. Out of all of those, the first and least expensive one, the Magellan Map 330 was by far the most accurate the quickest. It really spoiled us placing caches. Matter of fact, we never heard of or needed to average until we "upgraded." We payed a whopping $140 for it new. And yes, the most expensive one was the least accurate *hears drift drift drifting awayyyyyy in the background* ...

#37 User is offline   jerpete 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 12:14 PM

I've owned a Garmin eMAp, Magellan Sportrak, Garmin Legend and now the infamous Colorado 400t. Remarkably the 400t has been far and away the most accurate and easiest to use. I have not had any drift issues at all and I really like the interface.

After reading all the posts on here I feel like I won the lottery, of course I have now jinxed myself and will soon grabbing my pitchfork and torch to join the Garmin witchhunt. :huh:

#38 User is offline   yogazoo 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 12:18 PM

I know some in this thread have gotten responses describing a meeting with engineers to hammer out the problems. After dozens of calls to Tech support and after listening to a myriad of excuses, empty promises, and flat-out-wrong information, I have lost all faith in Garmin.

They are masters at blowing smoke up their customers arses. I don't believe that there is a planned meeting and I don't even believe the "reported" future update that addresses the Barometer and Drifting. Smoke, it's all smoke. Sorry for being such a "Debbie-Downer", but unless a brick fell from the sky and bonked the engineering team on the head, I doubt if they are just now, all of the sudden, seeing the light. I hope I'm wrong, but sadly, 9 months later, I've stopped holding my breath.

#39 User is offline   loknlod 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 02:29 PM

View Postjerpete, on Aug 27 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

I've owned a Garmin eMAp, Magellan Sportrak, Garmin Legend and now the infamous Colorado 400t. Remarkably the 400t has been far and away the most accurate and easiest to use. I have not had any drift issues at all and I really like the interface.

After reading all the posts on here I feel like I won the lottery, of course I have now jinxed myself and will soon grabbing my pitchfork and torch to join the Garmin witchhunt. :huh:


I'm happy with my Colorado also. Been working great for me, but I just use it for Geocaching and for Auto Navigation with City Navigator. I don't use most of the advanced features. It's an awesome upgrade from my B&W Etrek Legend

#40 User is offline   yogazoo 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 06:33 PM

For many users, the Colorado may be a good tool. I have noticed that many geocachers and "weekend" GPS'ers haven't been bothered by many issues. The unit is rather pricey for a high-tech toy but Have-at-it-Hoss.

I have also noticed that those who ARE largely dissapointed with the Colorado (myself included) are mostly advanced users that squeeze every bit of functionality out of their units. As for myself, most work days I turn the unit on when I wake up and don't turn it off again until I get home or back to camp as it were. I use my GPS every day, all day to navigate and record data. I can't begin to express how dissapointed I am with the Colorado's and Garmin for that matter.

A GPS is an invaluable tool and a trusty friend to those who use them like I do. I can neither trust in my Colorado nor use it as a reliable tool. It's basically a paperwieght until they get it fixed... IF they get it fixed.

This post has been edited by yogazoo: 27 August 2008 - 06:34 PM


#41 User is offline   webscouter. 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 06:57 PM

Well consider me an advanced user that uses his Colorado all over North America for navigation, geocaching and tracking my travels. I am very happy with the unit I have. It hasn't had any drift, is right on the roads and only shuts down if I let the batteries run down.

Not to say it couldn't use some improvement but it certainly isn't bad enough to write off Garmin as a company.

#42 User is offline   Team Chinook 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 07:00 PM

Certainly the Colorado and Oregon have shown their alpha-nish for many people on this forum. But I choose to believe two things. First, those that are most fervent in these online forum are seeking to solve problems...those that aren't seeking to solve problems are likely not on sites. Second I believe corporations are out to make a fair profit and in order to do that they need to deliver a good product and meet the customer needs. If, like Garmin apparently has, they misfire, a good firm like Garmin, will do what it takes to correct the defects, and make a superior product that will be purchased over and above others.

My glass is half full rather than half empty. I fear many others' glass is half empty on this issue. I could be proven wrong, but until then my hope is with Garmin accentuating the Colorado and Oregon and making it as good as or better than the 60csx. I am positive Garmin set out to deliver the best product yet when they brought the Colorado and Oregon out - not the worst.

For those of you who are that bent on Garmin I suggest you sell/punt/retreat and buy another brand and start suporting that brand and bite your tongue on Garmin for the time being. I know there have been issues, I am waiting for my 2nd device after punting the first.

But, my intent for contacting Garmin wasn't to kick the dog. It was to give them notice they've slipped up big time and to give them the opportunity to take corrective action. Making this a bitch session wasn't my intent and not sure it really does anyone any good. TFTC!

#43 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 07:39 PM

View PostTeam Chinook, on Aug 27 2008, 07:00 PM, said:


But, my intent for contacting Garmin wasn't to kick the dog. It was to give them notice they've slipped up big time and to give them the opportunity to take corrective action. Making this a bitch session wasn't my intent and not sure it really does anyone any good. TFTC!


I am in 100% agreement with you there. I think this thread needs to get back on topic. This thread is about contacting Garmin directly instead of hoping that they discover and read our compliants here. I reall doubt that the responses that those of us that have emailed them directly are responses aimed simply at attempting to placate the squeeky wheels. For whatever reason, right or wrong, the upper management apparently was not aware of the complaints. They are now, according to their own words, which now makes them more accountable than ever for fixing the problems. Let's now just watch and see how they deal with that accountabiltiy.

#44 User is offline   Team DeLorme 

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 08:11 PM

View PostGrasscatcher, on Aug 27 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

Just KNOW that there is a reason that Delorme has such a small market share.....software and hardware both.

Historically, THEY tell YOU what you want and need, not the other way around. That SEEMS to be changing. The PN-40 introduction in Oct, and the following reactions will be very interesting to watch. If that unit is as good as it sound like it will be, Delorme better be ready to (continue to...) make some major changes very quickly.
If, and when, "the masses" of new customers start responding to real or perceived problems they will either sink or swim.

Spend some serious time reading the Delorme Forums about map/data transfers, and aquisition times/ signal reception . Maybe what Delorme users are willing to "put up with" or "settle for" or "consider acceptable" is just different.

Compatibility with third party developers of other softwares is just about non existent.

However, after all of that, I may still try a PN-40 in October, but you can bet I'll get it at REI for obvious reasons.

I moved my reply over here so as not to de-rail this thread...

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...p;#entry3617967

Chip Noble
Team DeLorme

#45 User is offline   kafkar 

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 01:56 AM

View Postyogazoo, on Aug 27 2008, 12:18 PM, said:

I know some in this thread have gotten responses describing a meeting with engineers to hammer out the problems. After dozens of calls to Tech support and after listening to a myriad of excuses, empty promises, and flat-out-wrong information, I have lost all faith in Garmin.

They are masters at blowing smoke up their customers arses. I don't believe that there is a planned meeting and I don't even believe the "reported" future update that addresses the Barometer and Drifting. Smoke, it's all smoke. Sorry for being such a "Debbie-Downer", but unless a brick fell from the sky and bonked the engineering team on the head, I doubt if they are just now, all of the sudden, seeing the light. I hope I'm wrong, but sadly, 9 months later, I've stopped holding my breath.


What about making SW of Colorado/Oregon/.. Open Source? It would be device of dreams for lot of users. Majarity of market will stay with Garmin official line of SW and community will at zero cost produce improvements and modifications. Garmin would build strong community of enthusiatist that will help to improve product for all..

#46 User is offline   freeday 

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 09:37 AM

i hope a, a lot of people give it a try - i did it. :laughing:

#47 User is offline   Ratsneve 

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  Posted 28 August 2008 - 10:25 AM

View Postfreeday, on Aug 28 2008, 10:37 AM, said:

i hope a, a lot of people give it a try - i did it. :laughing:

You did what...some open source software for your Colorado/Oregon? Can you explain more and should this topic me moved to its own thread? Thanks.

#48 User is offline   freeday 

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 10:36 AM

i sent an email - good morning.

#49 User is offline   MtnHermit 

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 01:16 PM

View PostBarnie's Band of Gold, on Aug 26 2008, 05:48 AM, said:

With a lack of competition in the handheld market, what is Garmin's motivation to continue to outperform? Business is all about maximizing profits. Are any of you Colorado owners going to switch to Magellan??

Not likely.

Perhaps those that bought the Colorado and Triton AFTER reading all the bad reviews and commentary should be writing themselves a letter LOL!!

When Garmin does read these forums they will find they are the best (albeit of a bad bunch). Unless and until YOU STOP BUYING the Colorado (and Oregon) things will not change.
Written by someone who understands that companies are market driven, hence profit. Not driven by technical factors. So until profit is impacted change is unlikely.

Having said that, a professional handheld company is lurking, watch out for Delorme.

#50 User is offline   MtnHermit 

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 01:22 PM

View PostGrasscatcher, on Aug 27 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

I may still try a PN-40 in October, but you can bet I'll get it at REI for obvious reasons.
Does REI carry Delorme?

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