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Highway caches? This is really allowed?

#1 User is offline   Potato Finder 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:39 AM

I came across a recently published cache (only has 2 finds on it, and one of those commented on its location as well), which is on a 4 lane major highway and requires stopping on the highway. There are no nearby exits, pull offs, side roads, and no other way to approach this cache without stopping on the highway. Its on a guard rail on the end of a bridge.

Initially I posted a DNF on it stating that I didn't think this type of cache was allowed and I just didn't think it was safe to retrieve.

The cache owner deleted the log because "I gave away the position of the cache" and because "he had retrieved caches that he though were much more dangerous". I didn't even get out of my car to attempt it, so I'm not sure how I gave a spoiler.

Is this really allowed just because there isn't very specific language in the guidelines that don't say its not appropriate to stop on a major highway?

#2 User is offline   bittsen 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:57 AM

View PostPotato Finder, on Jan 27 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

I came across a recently published cache (only has 2 finds on it, and one of those commented on its location as well), which is on a 4 lane major highway and requires stopping on the highway. There are no nearby exits, pull offs, side roads, and no other way to approach this cache without stopping on the highway. Its on a guard rail on the end of a bridge.

Initially I posted a DNF on it stating that I didn't think this type of cache was allowed and I just didn't think it was safe to retrieve.

The cache owner deleted the log because "I gave away the position of the cache" and because "he had retrieved caches that he though were much more dangerous". I didn't even get out of my car to attempt it, so I'm not sure how I gave a spoiler.

Is this really allowed just because there isn't very specific language in the guidelines that don't say its not appropriate to stop on a major highway?


Safety of approach is not something that is taken into consideration when caches are approved. It's up to the cache owner and the cache seeker to determine if it's "safe".

Remember, you don't have to get all the caches. Passing on ones that make you uncomfortable is perfectly acceptable.

#3 User is offline   Potato Finder 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 02:04 AM

This isn't just about safety, there should be some legality question in there somewhere too. I know when I'm doing a high terrain or difficulty cache that there may be some safety issues involved, (this one is rated 1.5/1.5), but this is stopping on a 4-lane highway. I can't say for sure in other states, the the only reason you are allowed to stop on a major highway here is if you are having some kind of mechanical difficulty (engine, tire, etc), or something along those lines. Resting (your not allowed to pull over to rest, and will get a ticket if you do so), recreation, etc aren't allowed reasons.

#4 User is offline   SSO JOAT 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 02:27 AM

Ignore it and move on. No one outside of the CO bears any responsibility for the hide. Cachers have no obligation to violate any laws or take any risks that are greater than they are willing to take in order to get the cache.

#5 User is offline   sssss 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 02:41 AM

View PostSSO JOAT, on Jan 27 2010, 10:27 AM, said:

Ignore it and move on. No one outside of the CO bears any responsibility for the hide. Cachers have no obligation to violate any laws or take any risks that are greater than they are willing to take in order to get the cache.



If it is illegal to stop and get the cache then it should not be allowed or the cache owner should say how to access the cache legally.

When I cache abroad I do not always know the finer details of any law or byelaws that may be relevant.

I would assume that any cache set should be legal to get.

I would have a big sense of humour failure if I then had a court visit, fine or some penalty.

#6 User is offline   briansnat 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 04:18 AM

Generally if it is in a place where it is illegal to stop the cache would not be published.

Perhaps there is alternate access. I recall one that was 50 feet from a major highway. I passed it dozens of times and thought about stopping but I knew it was a bad idea. Actual access was via a park entrance a half mile from the cache.

#7 User is offline   Touchstone 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:13 AM

I'm not sure in MO, but in CA......

California Vehicle Code Violation for stopping on a Freeway.

I'd be posting a Needs Archived log in CA, but you'd have to check local law for your situation.

Like briansnat said, maybe you just missed the access point to the cache and need to look a bit harder.

#8 User is offline   GOF and Bacall 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:30 AM

It sounds like Briansnat is on the right track here. Actual legal access is probably further from the location. However, if you have a concern you could always contact the reviewer.

#9 User is offline   webscouter. 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:37 AM

Seems to me that the prohibition for placing caches on a highway bridge would have blocked this from being published. But I haven't seen the cache to know for sure.

#10 User is offline   sbell111 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:17 AM

I suspect that until the OP defines 'major highway', we will never come to consensus.

#11 User is offline   buttaskotch 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:37 AM

View PostPotato Finder, on Jan 27 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

I came across a recently published cache (only has 2 finds on it, and one of those commented on its location as well), which is on a 4 lane major highway and requires stopping on the highway. There are no nearby exits, pull offs, side roads, and no other way to approach this cache without stopping on the highway. Its on a guard rail on the end of a bridge.

Initially I posted a DNF on it stating that I didn't think this type of cache was allowed and I just didn't think it was safe to retrieve.

The cache owner deleted the log because "I gave away the position of the cache" and because "he had retrieved caches that he though were much more dangerous". I didn't even get out of my car to attempt it, so I'm not sure how I gave a spoiler.

Is this really allowed just because there isn't very specific language in the guidelines that don't say its not appropriate to stop on a major highway?

4 Lanes defines a major highway to me. When re-reading the initial post by OP, he stated that the CO felt that he retrieved caches that were "much more dangerous," the language makes me think that stopping on the highway is only access point. If it isn't the only access point, then CO should have instructions for an access point or say "do not retrieve from highway" if that is the case.

If I am getting the OP he is worried that people would get hurt or possibly killed retrieving the cache. If OP truly feels that its very dangerous, PM the reviewer directly, question the cache and air your grievance.

#12 User is offline   Clan Riffster 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:38 AM

View Postsssss, on Jan 27 2010, 05:41 AM, said:

If it is illegal to stop and get the cache then it should not be allowed or the cache owner should say how to access the cache legally.

There's a cache near me called "The Long Walk", which is right at the edge of State Rd 434, a major highway.
Those lazy enough to treat it as a P&G will probably run afoul of the law.
Those who take "the long walk" to get there won't.

In that case, the owner spelled out that this was not a P&G, and even suggested parking coords.
If I had hidden it, I probably would've left this up to the individual cacher.

#13 User is offline   bflentje 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:59 AM

View PostPotato Finder, on Jan 27 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

I came across a recently published cache (only has 2 finds on it, and one of those commented on its location as well), which is on a 4 lane major highway and requires stopping on the highway. There are no nearby exits, pull offs, side roads, and no other way to approach this cache without stopping on the highway. Its on a guard rail on the end of a bridge.

Initially I posted a DNF on it stating that I didn't think this type of cache was allowed and I just didn't think it was safe to retrieve.

The cache owner deleted the log because "I gave away the position of the cache" and because "he had retrieved caches that he though were much more dangerous". I didn't even get out of my car to attempt it, so I'm not sure how I gave a spoiler.

Is this really allowed just because there isn't very specific language in the guidelines that don't say its not appropriate to stop on a major highway?


Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.

#14 User is offline   Castle Mischief 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:18 AM

View Postbflentje, on Jan 27 2010, 06:59 AM, said:

Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.


What's the lifespan of the average self-appointed cacher-cop?

#15 User is offline   sbell111 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:25 AM

View Postbuttaskotch, on Jan 27 2010, 08:37 AM, said:

4 Lanes defines a major highway to me.
The road that I take to get to the road that takes me to the interstate has four lanes (5 if you count the turn lane). It is far from a major highway. It is a road. In fact, it is such a minor road that my GPSr's map totally ignores it unless I drill in to the .2 mile view.

This post has been edited by sbell111: 27 January 2010 - 07:27 AM


#16 User is offline   CoyoteRed 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:17 AM

Send a note to the reviewer with photos of the area and let them decide. From there, put it on your ignore list and move on.

Don't know the circumstances, but I can see the headline:

INTERNET HOBBY KILLS FAMILY OF 4
An internet game called geocaching encourages participants to illegally stop on a busy highway. Mr. John Jones illegally stopped his 1997 Dodge minivan partially in the roadway to hop out and play geocaching game leaving his wife of 7 years, Susan, and twin daughters Sara and Stephanie, 4 in the van. As he returned a semi truck struck the minivan killing all four instantly.

Congressman R.T. Bullworth (D) stated that this game is getting out of hand and has introduced a bill in Senate to outlaw the hobby with this state. "It's time to put a stop to these holligans who have no respect for the law, propterty rights, the citizens of this fine state, or even themselves!"

The governor stated they he will sign the bill if it reaches his desk.


#17 User is offline   StarBrand 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:17 AM

You should never break the law to place or seek a cache.

Having said that - it should be obvious that such a cache should always include a parking waypoint to begin the hunt from the legal access. Nobody should ever be encouraged to break the law. Of course Rhyme and Reason don't often visit such COs.

#18 User is offline   briansnat 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:21 AM

Quote

Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.



If the cache requires illegal activity to find it, then it should be reported. In my state it is illegal to stop on a highway unless it is an emergency. Walking on a highway is also illegal.

If you think CoyoteRed's post above is far fetched, think again.

#19 User is offline   sbell111 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:27 AM

View Postbriansnat, on Jan 27 2010, 11:21 AM, said:

Quote

Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.



If the cache requires illegal activity to find it, then it should be reported. In my state it is illegal to stop on a highway unless it is an emergency. Walking on a highway is also illegal.

If you think CoyoteRed's post above is far fetched, think again.
Do you mean other than the fact that no such law could be legally enforced?

Further, it should be noted that if such a law does exist in your state, I suspect that it carefully defines the word 'highway'. This is something that the OP has failed to do.

This post has been edited by sbell111: 27 January 2010 - 09:29 AM


#20 User is offline   briansnat 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:59 AM

View Postsbell111, on Jan 27 2010, 12:27 PM, said:

View Postbriansnat, on Jan 27 2010, 11:21 AM, said:

Quote

Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.



If the cache requires illegal activity to find it, then it should be reported. In my state it is illegal to stop on a highway unless it is an emergency. Walking on a highway is also illegal.

If you think CoyoteRed's post above is far fetched, think again.
Do you mean other than the fact that no such law could be legally enforced?

Further, it should be noted that if such a law does exist in your state, I suspect that it carefully defines the word 'highway'. This is something that the OP has failed to do.


Lawmakers can pass any laws they want to. Legislators love to legislate. Whether or not the law is constitutional or enforceable is irrelevant. Would you volunteer to take it to through appeals and to the Supreme Court?

I am assuming for the sake of argument that when the OP says major highway I can take him at his word. Even if his description of this particular highway is incorrect and this particular cache violates no guidelines it doesn't change the argument that they should be reported when they do.

This post has been edited by briansnat: 27 January 2010 - 10:01 AM


#21 User is offline   crawil 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:04 AM

Can we get the GC number for this cache?

#22 User is offline   SSO JOAT 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:14 AM

Just so folks can get the whole picture, a little sleuthing reveals the cache the OP is referring to...

GC237WQ

One might point out by the satellite map that there are "side roads" nearby. It's just a matter of how far you are willing to walk, isn't it?

I don't like the idea of entering into a "discussion" with the CO via "write note" log entries on the cache listing. That kind of stuff ought to be taken up via email.

This post has been edited by SSO JOAT: 27 January 2010 - 10:15 AM


#23 User is offline   Cedar Grove Seekers 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:18 AM

View PostPotato Finder, on Jan 27 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

....requires stopping on the highway. There are no nearby exits, pull offs, side roads, and no other way to approach this cache without stopping on the highway. Its on a guard rail on the end of a bridge.

This seems to suggest that the cache should be approachable by car. As others have suggested, a long hike might be a safer option.

Without all the details, I would assume that the highway bridge crosses a watercourse (or possibly a railroad), but not a road as that's excluded by the OP's description. Assuming not a railroad, couldn't one hike along the watercourse to the bridge? This does not involve parking on a highway.

EDIT: Posted this before SSO JOAT provided the cache. Looks like the highway bridge crosses a river and a railroad. Although I don't endorse crossing a railroad, it appears that one could easily walk to this cache from a nearby sideroad without crossing the railroad or walking on the highway.

Not sure why this cache is such a problem? Maybe some people are beginning to expect that every cache should be a park'n'grab.

This post has been edited by Cedar Grove Seekers: 27 January 2010 - 10:26 AM


#24 User is offline   Mini-Geek 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:24 AM

Stopping on the edge of a highway/motorway can be really dangerous, as you probably know.

If the cache can be aproached from another direction, then it should be listed on the cache page, and also say not to stop on the edge of the road.

here is a video to show the dangers of stopping on the side of a highway!

Video

#25 User is offline   SSO JOAT 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:28 AM

Yeah, I wish those cops would stop parking on the wrong side of highways in moderate traffic conditions!

#26 User is offline   PirateKatz 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:31 AM

Placing a cache requires approval from the appropriate landowner or land manager. Presumably, the cache owner got permission from his or her's state Department of Transportation prior to placing it. If it were illegal to pull off onto the shoulder and loiter on the side of a highway, why would the DOT grant permission?

Or do people just lie about obtaining permission prior to placing a cache?

#27 User is offline   bflentje 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:32 AM

View PostCastle Mischief, on Jan 27 2010, 07:18 AM, said:

View Postbflentje, on Jan 27 2010, 06:59 AM, said:

Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.


What's the lifespan of the average self-appointed cacher-cop?


I don't know, my comment obviouly in gest. And what I failed to mention was the fact that the element of danger is relative.

#28 User is offline   PirateKatz 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:33 AM

View PostCedar Grove Seekers, on Jan 27 2010, 10:18 AM, said:


EDIT: Posted this before SSO JOAT provided the cache. Looks like the highway bridge crosses a river and a railroad. Although I don't endorse crossing a railroad, it appears that one could easily walk to this cache from a nearby sideroad without crossing the railroad or walking on the highway.

Not sure why this cache is such a problem? Maybe some people are beginning to expect that every cache should be a park'n'grab.


According to the cache description, the appropriate parking area is on the side of the road:


This cache is located on the guardrail of the northbound lane of 13 highway between Lexington and Richmond before crossing the Missouri River. You must pull off onto the shoulder, turn on your flashers, and watch for traffic as you walk behind the guardrail and look under the end of it.

If you do not feel safe pulling off the side of the highway and getting out, please do not attempt this cache. Thank you!


#29 User is offline   SSO JOAT 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:42 AM

But that "park on the side of the road" description was clearly added after the OP requested it of the CO.

This post has been edited by SSO JOAT: 27 January 2010 - 10:43 AM


#30 User is offline   Mr.Yuck 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:50 AM

View PostSSO JOAT, on Jan 27 2010, 10:14 AM, said:

Just so folks can get the whole picture, a little sleuthing reveals the cache the OP is referring to...

GC237WQ

One might point out by the satellite map that there are "side roads" nearby. It's just a matter of how far you are willing to walk, isn't it?

I don't like the idea of entering into a "discussion" with the CO via "write note" log entries on the cache listing. That kind of stuff ought to be taken up via email.


Here y'all go.......
Posted Image

#31 User is offline   Team Cotati 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:01 AM

View Postbflentje, on Jan 27 2010, 06:59 AM, said:

View PostPotato Finder, on Jan 27 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

I came across a recently published cache (only has 2 finds on it, and one of those commented on its location as well), which is on a 4 lane major highway and requires stopping on the highway. There are no nearby exits, pull offs, side roads, and no other way to approach this cache without stopping on the highway. Its on a guard rail on the end of a bridge.

Initially I posted a DNF on it stating that I didn't think this type of cache was allowed and I just didn't think it was safe to retrieve.

The cache owner deleted the log because "I gave away the position of the cache" and because "he had retrieved caches that he though were much more dangerous". I didn't even get out of my car to attempt it, so I'm not sure how I gave a spoiler.

Is this really allowed just because there isn't very specific language in the guidelines that don't say its not appropriate to stop on a major highway?


Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.


It is either a violation or it isn't.

#32 User is offline   bittsen 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:14 AM

This thread is much ado about nothing.

The cache location is accessible from off the highway. It's not unsafe to pull a car WAY off the side of the highway (off of the pavement) to get to the cache. There's very forgivable terrain all around and there are actual tire tracks a little way towards the river that indicate that there is a degree of a path from the nearby are to the guardrail without ever touching the highway.

This kind of "concern" is ridiculous. The person(s) who are worried should either toughen up a little or get a new hobby.

I had someone complain about one of my caches being too close to a busy highway where people would drive way too fast. They told me they sent a note to the reviewer and I think the reviewer asked me about it. The stupid thing is the cache is less than 50 feet from a bus stop, 3 feet off of the sidewalk. They were just approaching it from the wrong way and didn't have a clue that they were on the wrong road.

The cache in question in this thread is no big deal.

#33 User is offline   steve p 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:22 AM

That road looks like a state road, rather than an Interstate-style highway. It may be four lanes, but it looks like the kind of road that wouldn't be illegal to pull onto the shoulder. There are guard rail caches everywhere. Just because this one is next to a four-lane road instead of a two-lane road, what's the difference?

If I were the OP I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of it. Surely the reviewer saw the cache's location and made the decision to approve it. It's obvious that it is next to a road. If you don't like it, just move on.

#34 User is offline   Mr.Yuck 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:30 AM

View Poststeve p, on Jan 27 2010, 11:22 AM, said:

That road looks like a state road, rather than an Interstate-style highway. It may be four lanes, but it looks like the kind of road that wouldn't be illegal to pull onto the shoulder. There are guard rail caches everywhere. Just because this one is next to a four-lane road instead of a two-lane road, what's the difference?

If I were the OP I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of it. Surely the reviewer saw the cache's location and made the decision to approve it. It's obvious that it is next to a road. If you don't like it, just move on.


I agree it's not a 4 lane divided highway such as an Interstate is, or many U.S. Highways often are. Although I personally ignore almost all rural roadside micros, and certainly would have this one were it placed in my area (after checking out the sat view of the newly published cache), I believe this will be allowed to stand.

#35 User is offline   Wadcutter 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:42 AM

View Postbriansnat, on Jan 27 2010, 11:59 AM, said:

View Postsbell111, on Jan 27 2010, 12:27 PM, said:

View Postbriansnat, on Jan 27 2010, 11:21 AM, said:

Quote

Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.


If the cache requires illegal activity to find it, then it should be reported. In my state it is illegal to stop on a highway unless it is an emergency. Walking on a highway is also illegal.

If you think CoyoteRed's post above is far fetched, think again.
Do you mean other than the fact that no such law could be legally enforced?

Further, it should be noted that if such a law does exist in your state, I suspect that it carefully defines the word 'highway'. This is something that the OP has failed to do.


Lawmakers can pass any laws they want to. Legislators love to legislate. Whether or not the law is constitutional or enforceable is irrelevant. Would you volunteer to take it to through appeals and to the Supreme Court?

I am assuming for the sake of argument that when the OP says major highway I can take him at his word. Even if his description of this particular highway is incorrect and this particular cache violates no guidelines it doesn't change the argument that they should be reported when they do.


Missouri's definition of "highway" pretty much follows the federal guidelines and is the same as in most other states. From Missouri's statutes:
"301.010. (19) "Highway", any public thoroughfare for vehicles, including state roads, county roads and public streets, avenues, boulevards, parkways or alleys in any municipality;"

I don't know why anyone would think "no such law could be legally enforced". Just such laws are on the books and are very much enforceable and being enforced quite regularly. And such cases have gone to the USSC which supported such statutes. Such laws are in place to regulate traffic and use on certain highways and are no different than any other traffic law. Such laws will restrict certain uses on certain highways, such as no animal drawn vehicles, motor driven cycles under a certain size, hitchhiking, pedestrians, minimum and maximum speeds.

There is nothing that says an interstate highway has to be a divided highway with a median. Most are but there are places where they aren't.

Whether it is a violation in the case of this particular cache would take someone to do a bit of research of that particular stretch of roadway and MO statutes.
As long as it's not illegal then whether it's too dangerous or not should be up to the individual cacher to decide if they want the risk. There are some caches in the mountains of Colorado that I would love to see but I also know that I do not have the expertise, training, and unfortunately the age to go after them as they would be too dangerous for me to attempt. That doesn't mean that someone else would have no problems with safely retrieving those same caches.

This post has been edited by Wadcutter: 27 January 2010 - 11:56 AM


#36 User is offline   CoyoteRed 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:49 AM

Hmmm... Cache owner advises of the "proper" way to approach a cache on a controlled access highway which is most likely illegal. The very placement would require a seeker to walk on a controlled access highway, again, most likely illegal.

Nope, no big deal at all. <_<

#37 User is offline   GOF and Bacall 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:55 AM

View PostCastle Mischief, on Jan 27 2010, 07:18 AM, said:

View Postbflentje, on Jan 27 2010, 06:59 AM, said:

Self appointed cache cops inevitably die early of anxiety or other related disorders. Like I keep saying, unless it is a flagrant violation of the guidelines or the law, in my opinion, you should just go about your business and either cache or find some other hobby.


What's the lifespan of the average self-appointed cacher-cop?


About the same as for self appointed spelling police. <_<

#38 User is offline   GOF and Bacall 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:07 PM

View PostMini-Geek, on Jan 27 2010, 10:24 AM, said:

Stopping on the edge of a highway/motorway can be really dangerous, as you probably know.

If the cache can be aproached from another direction, then it should be listed on the cache page, and also say not to stop on the edge of the road.

here is a video to show the dangers of stopping on the side of a highway!

Video


Sorry, sensationalism does not make a valid argument. I have seen just as bad or worse on two lane country roads with posted parking hours.

#39 User is offline   GOF and Bacall 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:15 PM

View PostCoyoteRed, on Jan 27 2010, 11:49 AM, said:

Hmmm... Cache owner advises of the "proper" way to approach a cache on a controlled access highway which is most likely illegal. The very placement would require a seeker to walk on a controlled access highway, again, most likely illegal.

Nope, no big deal at all. <_<


Has it been determined that this is a controlled highway, or just a four lane road? As far as I can tell we don't even know if is legal or not to park on the shoulder there.

#40 User is offline   bittsen 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:16 PM

Must be a slow day in the GS forums to still be discussing this one.

#41 User is offline   awhsom 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:17 PM

I have found the cache in question, and while I dont know if it is a legal hide or not, it did bring me to a section of guardrail that I would never have known about without geocaching.... <_<

#42 User is offline   GOF and Bacall 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:20 PM

View Postawhsom, on Jan 27 2010, 12:17 PM, said:

I have found the cache in question, and while I dont know if it is a legal hide or not, it did bring me to a section of guardrail that I would never have known about without geocaching.... <_<

Posted Image

#43 User is offline   sbell111 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:22 PM

View PostMini-Geek, on Jan 27 2010, 12:24 PM, said:

Stopping on the edge of a highway/motorway can be really dangerous, as you probably know.

If the cache can be aproached from another direction, then it should be listed on the cache page, and also say not to stop on the edge of the road.
I certainly disagree with the bolded bit. It is the responsibility of the searcher to find a place to park his car and legally access the location. No one needs to hold our hands to guide us through the entire hunt.

View PostPirateKatz, on Jan 27 2010, 12:31 PM, said:

Placing a cache requires approval from the appropriate landowner or land manager. Presumably, the cache owner got permission from his or her's state Department of Transportation prior to placing it. If it were illegal to pull off onto the shoulder and loiter on the side of a highway, why would the DOT grant permission?

Or do people just lie about obtaining permission prior to placing a cache?
You might want to take another quicl read of the guidelines. They don't say what you think they do.

View PostWadcutter, on Jan 27 2010, 01:42 PM, said:

Missouri's definition of "highway" pretty much follows the federal guidelines and is the same as in most other states. From Missouri's statutes:
"301.010. (19) "Highway", any public thoroughfare for vehicles, including state roads, county roads and public streets, avenues, boulevards, parkways or alleys in any municipality;"

I don't know why anyone would think "no such law could be legally enforced". Just such laws are on the books and are very much enforceable and being enforced quite regularly. And such cases have gone to the USSC which supported such statutes. Such laws are in place to regulate traffic and use on certain highways and are no different than any other traffic law. Such laws will restrict certain uses on certain highways, such as no animal drawn vehicles, motor driven cycles under a certain size, hitchhiking, pedestrians, minimum and maximum speeds.
You are confusing two separate and distinct discussions in this thread. No one has stated that laws regarding controlling access to highways cannot be enforced.

This post has been edited by sbell111: 27 January 2010 - 12:23 PM


#44 User is offline   Touchstone 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:39 PM

Yeesh! After reading through the log entries on that listing I'm starting to have a little sympathy for the cache owner. It's really poor form to turn someones listing into a Forum in my opinion. Just report it to the Reviewer and move on.

#45 User is offline   CoyoteRed 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:47 PM

View PostWadcutter, on Jan 27 2010, 02:42 PM, said:

I don't know why anyone would think "no such law could be legally enforced".

The scenario I proposed in my post could very well generate such a response. However, a blanket ban on geocaching couldn't be enforced. They could pass laws that would ban the hobby is certain areas without explicit permission from land owners, etc. It's been tried. Here in SC it is illegal to geocache in certain areas regardless of land owner permission. Constitutional? Probably not, but this is just a hobby. So far, the only folks enforcing it is Groundspeak themselves. I've not heard word one about any progress about getting back in there.

#46 User is offline   4wheelin_fool 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:48 PM

It just looks like a bad idea. Raised medians are usually used on hazardous roadways. They are intended to stop head on collisions and to prevent pedestrians from trying to cross. Whats the speed limit, 65? Traffic flow would average 70-75? I'd feel much safer rappelling off a 150' cliff, rather than stopping there and wondering if there is a teenager texting and not paying attention, or if happy hour at the bar down the road just ended. Involuntary manslaughter by vehicle (without a DUI charge) is usually a very light sentence. If you got killed, the person who hit you would only get 3 years, or possibly just probation depending on the circumstances. It appears not to violate the guidelines, however.(unless the DOT finds out)

This post has been edited by 4wheelin_fool: 27 January 2010 - 01:04 PM


#47 User is offline   bittsen 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:57 PM

View Post4wheelin_fool, on Jan 27 2010, 12:48 PM, said:

It looks like a bad idea. Raised medians are usually used on hazardous roadways. They are intended to stop head on collisions and to prevent pedestrians from trying to cross. Whats the speed limit, 65? Traffic flow would average 70-75? How wide is the shoulder? If you open your door, does it enter into a lane of traffic? I'd feel safer rappelling off a 150' cliff, rather than stopping there and wondering if there is a teenager texting and not paying attention, or if happy hour at the bar down the road just ended. Involuntary manslaughter by vehicle (without a DUI charge) is usually a very light sentence. If you got killed, the person who hit you would only get 3 years, or possibly just probation depending on the circumstances.


In that case, wouldn't you just keep on driving?

#48 User is offline   GOF and Bacall 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:58 PM

View Post4wheelin_fool, on Jan 27 2010, 12:48 PM, said:

It looks like a bad idea. Raised medians are usually used on hazardous roadways. They are intended to stop head on collisions and to prevent pedestrians from trying to cross. Whats the speed limit, 65? Traffic flow would average 70-75? How wide is the shoulder? If you open your door, does it enter into a lane of traffic? I'd feel safer rappelling off a 150' cliff, rather than stopping there and wondering if there is a teenager texting and not paying attention, or if happy hour at the bar down the road just ended. Involuntary manslaughter by vehicle (without a DUI charge) is usually a very light sentence. If you got killed, the person who hit you would only get 3 years, or possibly just probation depending on the circumstances.


I agree that it looks like a bad idea to place a cache there. However, the facts aren't all in. It appears this is a controlled road, and parking is likely illegal, but who knows.

#49 User is offline   GeoGeeBee 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:16 PM

View PostGOF & Bacall, on Jan 27 2010, 03:15 PM, said:

Has it been determined that this is a controlled highway, or just a four lane road? As far as I can tell we don't even know if is legal or not to park on the shoulder there.


It's a controlled highway, in the sense that it has on-ramps and off-ramps (like an Interstate) instead of intersections with traffic lights or stop signs. I don't know if it is legal or not to park on the shoulder.

#50 User is offline   9Key 

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:23 PM

Why didn't he just put the cache in the nice looking (at least from the aerial) cemetery nearby. That would have satisfied his "river cache series" thing. Oh well.

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