[sammydee]

(Edited the "bottom line")

Took the 62st on its first hike / caching adventure today. In general it worked well, but there is one odd thing.

The custom maps I made with Google Earth, putting an image of the park trail map into the GPS, worked out very well. They displayed fine, and were very easy to use. In fact I disabled the built-in topo maps, since the topo lines in the park map were easy to read.

The GPS did a good job tracking my location, but the vertical profile shows bursts where the GPS couldn't keep track of the elevation.



The black line shows the profile per Delorme Topo 8's built-in topo data. The green line shows the profile from the Garmin 62st. Note how the Garmin usually did well, but when it lost elevation "lock" it really went crazy.

I post-processed the track through Fizzymagic's AnalyzeTrack program, and it claimed that I hiked over 8000 vertical feet ... when Everytrail and Topo 8 said I did under 2000. I guess Fizzy's program isn't handling the odd burstiness of the Garmin's elevation data very well.

Battery life was super, compared with the PN-40.

Oh, finding caches. The 62st did very well. The "workflow" of finding caches and logging them is quite a bit different on the 62st than on the PN-40 that I'm used to, so it took some getting used to ... but everything worked out just fine. I think I need to play with the order of pages a little, as I find I'm spending a lot of time scrolling from Compass ---> Geocaches and back. But once that's done I think I will be very happy with the 62st.

Bottom line: the altitude thing is quite disturbing. This thing goes back unless there's a fix. Calling Garmin tomorrow.

...Sam

This post has been edited by sammydee: 08 August 2010 - 10:20 PM

[draffety]

ryan3295, on Aug 7 2010, 05:56 AM, said:

brucered, on Aug 6 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

got my RMA, another squeaker! 21F006***

i specifically asked them to open it and test it before sending, but i guess they didn't.

perhaps it's time to walk away from the 62s and grab a rock solid 60cx from walmart or bite the bullet, keep this one and hope the squeak goes away. this one appears to be a bit better, only squeaks on the side opposite the power button.

here the video of my new squeaker (sound looks like it's off a bit, it was recorded with my lifecam webcam)
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FwtW2QuQxlk

I just sent my second 62s in for the squeaking problem, this time garmin replaced it with a 62st.

First post... but I figured I'd relay my experience with the "squeak." I bought a 62st from Cabela's... it squeaked (more like plastic on plastic) horribly. There is definitely a weakness or flimsiness in the plastic. I will return that unit. Picked up a 62s from Bass Pro after testing it out and verifying that it did not "squeak." Having had both (a bad one and a good one), I can say there is definitely a marked difference in the soundness of the construction. The 62s I tested and bought was rock solid. In the "squeaky" unit, it's almost like the plastic is weakened, or something that is supposed to add support is missing. This is on the top plastic piece on the middle of either side of the screen. Sure seems like a manufacturing defect. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

FYI:
"Squeaky" 62st serial number: 21G000128
Rock solid 62s (no problems whatsoever) serial number: 21F001363

[lalittle]

sammydee, on Aug 8 2010, 06:03 PM, said:

The GPS did a good job tracking my location, but the vertical profile shows bursts where the GPS couldn't keep track of the elevation.



The black line shows the profile per Delorme Topo 8's built-in topo data. The green line shows the profile from the Garmin 62st. Note how the Garmin usually did well, but when it lost elevation "lock" it really went crazy.

Do you know if those sections lined up with areas of particularly bad tree cover, or some conditions that could interfere with the ability to see the satellite? Does this happen all the time, or was this unique to this trail?

On a related note, I'm still unclear about exactly how the 62 gets its elevation data. Is it using pressure, or the satellites, or a combination of both? On the same subject, how does the "auto calibration" setting work? Does anybody have any tricks for manually calibrating the altimeter -- i.e. how do you find out your "actual" elevation if you're not at sea level?

Thanks,

Larry

[TheRedArmy]

draffety, on Aug 8 2010, 08:32 PM, said:

First post... but I figured I'd relay my experience with the "squeak." I bought a 62st from Cabela's... it squeaked (more like plastic on plastic) horribly. There is definitely a weakness or flimsiness in the plastic. I will return that unit. Picked up a 62s from Bass Pro after testing it out and verifying that it did not "squeak." Having had both (a bad one and a good one), I can say there is definitely a marked difference in the soundness of the construction. The 62s I tested and bought was rock solid. In the "squeaky" unit, it's almost like the plastic is weakened, or something that is supposed to add support is missing. This is on the top plastic piece on the middle of either side of the screen. Sure seems like a manufacturing defect. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

FYI:
"Squeaky" 62st serial number: 21G000128
Rock solid 62s (no problems whatsoever) serial number: 21F001363

glad to hear there are actually some NON-SQUEAKING 62S's out there. my search continues.

[sammydee]

lalittle, on Aug 8 2010, 07:11 PM, said:

Do you know if those sections lined up with areas of particularly bad tree cover, or some conditions that could interfere with the ability to see the satellite? Does this happen all the time, or was this unique to this trail?

The bursts of poor vertical resolution do not match up to tree cover, and I cannot correlate them with anything obvious. I'd like to see similar data from others.

[sammydee]

sammydee, on Aug 8 2010, 06:03 PM, said:

The GPS did a good job tracking my location, but the vertical profile shows bursts where the GPS couldn't keep track of the elevation.



The black line shows the profile per Delorme Topo 8's built-in topo data. The green line shows the profile from the Garmin 62st. Note how the Garmin usually did well, but when it lost elevation "lock" it really went crazy.

To get a better idea of when the 62st had trouble with altitude, I imported the track into Google Earth. BUT I un-checked the box telling GE to change the track so it was at ground level. This lets the track bounce up and down in the air, showing where the Garmin went a little crazy.

It pretty clearly shows that the incidents of altitude-loopiness do not match up with tree cover or anything else I can determine.





Curious.

[humboldt flier]

draffety, on Aug 8 2010, 06:32 PM, said:

ryan3295, on Aug 7 2010, 05:56 AM, said:

brucered, on Aug 6 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

got my RMA, another squeaker! 21F006***

i specifically asked them to open it and test it before sending, but i guess they didn't.

perhaps it's time to walk away from the 62s and grab a rock solid 60cx from walmart or bite the bullet, keep this one and hope the squeak goes away. this one appears to be a bit better, only squeaks on the side opposite the power button.

here the video of my new squeaker (sound looks like it's off a bit, it was recorded with my lifecam webcam)
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FwtW2QuQxlk

I just sent my second 62s in for the squeaking problem, this time garmin replaced it with a 62st.

First post... but I figured I'd relay my experience with the "squeak."

FYI:
"Squeaky" 62st serial number: 21G000128
Rock solid 62s (no problems whatsoever) serial number: 21F001363

FWIW:

Model 62s: 21F004587 & 21F005009 are squeak free

[yogazoo]

I experienced the spikes this weekend and figured out what causes them. As you walk and log your track things are smooth but as soon as you start pressing buttons, say to the trip computer or map page, you get spikes. Try walking down the street as you watch your elevation plot. Now start pressing buttons repeatedly and watch as you begin logging spikes. Having every model of garmin since the baromentric altimeter has come out, I've never seen a problem quite this bad. Yeah I get it the inside is sealed and pressing buttons would temporarily raise and lower that pressure but previous models are also sealed and pressing their buttons hasn't, to my recollection, cause as much of a problem.

Oh, and my squeaker replacement (first unit RMA'd due to loud squeak) squeaks EVEN LOUDER, is flimsier, and feels cheaper than the last one. When you turn it on you can actually watch as the sides push in. Definately a manufacturing defect and I'm not happy at all with Garmin right now. Unacceptable. I'm calling Garmin tomorrow and going to raise holy-heck.

The replacement number is in the 6,000's

[sammydee]

yogazoo, on Aug 8 2010, 10:36 PM, said:

I experienced the spikes this weekend and figured out what causes them. As you walk and log your track things are smooth but as soon as you start pressing buttons, say to the trip computer or map page, you get spikes. Try walking down the street as you watch your elevation plot.

Came here to post basically the same thing.

Oh, jeepers. I think I know what it correlates to.

When the unit is in my hand.

I added the geocaches onto the Google Earth map. Sure enough, there are spikes in altitude around caches where I would have been playing with the GPS, and often for some time after the cache - when I would still have been playing. But during periods of heavy slogging down the trail - no caches, no reason for me to have the unit in my hand - the altitude track is nice and smooth.

When the GPS wasn't in my hand, it was hanging from my belt on the carabiner.

I bet the squeak-flexing-plastic is driving the barometer crazy.

I'm calling Garmin Support tomorrow. Wow, this is really bad news. A GPS you can't hold in your hand is of no value whatsoever.

...Sam

This post has been edited by sammydee: 08 August 2010 - 10:14 PM

[sammydee]

Deleted duplicate post.

This post has been edited by sammydee: 08 August 2010 - 10:12 PM

[sammydee]

Deleted duplicate post.

This post has been edited by sammydee: 08 August 2010 - 10:13 PM

[lalittle]

sammydee, on Aug 8 2010, 11:00 PM, said:

yogazoo, on Aug 8 2010, 10:36 PM, said:

I experienced the spikes this weekend and figured out what causes them. As you walk and log your track things are smooth but as soon as you start pressing buttons, say to the trip computer or map page, you get spikes. Try walking down the street as you watch your elevation plot.

Came here to post basically the same thing.

Oh, jeepers. I think I know what it correlates to.

When the unit is in my hand.

I added the geocaches onto the Google Earth map. Sure enough, there are spikes in altitude around caches where I would have been playing with the GPS, and often for some time after the cache - when I would still have been playing. But during periods of heavy slogging down the trail - no caches, no reason for me to have the unit in my hand - the altitude track is nice and smooth.

When the GPS wasn't in my hand, it was hanging from my belt on the carabiner.

I bet the squeak-flexing-plastic is driving the barometer crazy.

I'm calling Garmin Support tomorrow. Wow, this is really bad news. A GPS you can't hold in your hand is of no value whatsoever.

...Sam

Just for clarification, are you saying that it does this by simply "holding" the unit in your hand, or that it does this when you press buttons or otherwise manipulate the unit?

Thanks,

Larry

[Timpat]

Can you disable the electronic barometer and let it use GPS data? This would be another test to pinpoint the issue, but sure doesn't excuse this finding.

[gpscybr]

Well I got my new 62st, and this one does not squeak.

I have however somewhat lost confidence that other problems with this unit will not pop up, seeing how this, in my opinion serious flaw, was allowed to get by quality controls.

I hope the company steps up to the plate and provides the kind of support for this unit that they have been famous for in the past.

This post has been edited by gpscybr: 09 August 2010 - 08:07 AM

[jlw82]

Is there no pics of the ST build in maps? Really want to see details on the area where i live.

[yogazoo]

You can see the entire map through Garmin's interactive map web page. The link below is for the 100K scale product which is what is used for the new Garmin's that come with topo maps pre-loaded. If you search these forums you will notice that in some areas it appears the maps have slight differences but for the most part the 100K scale product and the pre-loaded topo's are the exact same.

Garmin Topo

[yogazoo]

Called Garmin this morning to talk to them about my replacement (second one) flimsy-sided, squeaky unit and the tech-rep said he received an e-mail this morning from engineering stating that the flimsyness and squeaking are NOT defects and will no longer be exchanged.

Hmm, some units squeak and some units side plastic pushes in and feels flimsy and others don't. This isn't a defect? This electronic equipment that I just paid top-dollar for shouldn't feel and sound like a cheap piece of $#!T in my hand. Just be aware as a consumer, if your considering this product, that the designers and engineers call this normal and don't plan on addressing it in any way. So buyer beware, you may get a flimsy squeaker or you may get a solid unit, flip a coin.

This post has been edited by yogazoo: 09 August 2010 - 08:37 AM

[humboldt flier]

Poor business decision in my book:

Seems to me that if the case is flexing the plastic will potentially fatigue which will lead to failure at some point down the road.


Word to the wise purchase at a brick and mortar facility with a good return policy. If those stores start getting flooded with rejects perhaps they might flex their muscles and get the problem addressed.


Back in the day I returned two Colorados directly to Gary and Min. I doubt that they ever saw my missive, however, I had resolution to my issues in very short order.

[ryan3295]

yogazoo, on Aug 9 2010, 07:17 AM, said:

Called Garmin this morning to talk to them about my replacement (second one) flimsy-sided, squeaky unit and the tech-rep said he received an e-mail this morning from engineering stating that the flimsyness and squeaking are NOT defects and will no longer be exchanged.

Hmm, some units squeak and some units side plastic pushes in and feels flimsy and others don't. This isn't a defect? This electronic equipment that I just paid top-dollar for shouldn't feel and sound like a cheap piece of $#!T in my hand. Just be aware as a consumer, if your considering this product, that the designers and engineers call this normal and don't plan on addressing it in any way. So buyer beware, you may get a flimsy squeaker or you may get a solid unit, flip a coin.

So did they replace your second squeaky unit?? I am still waiting on my third RMA'd unit to arrive for the squeaking problem. I am beginning to think that I should have learned my lesson about being an early adopter, my scars are still healing from the Colorado!!

[rogking]

No squeak on mine....

[sammydee]

Sadly, I can now confirm 100% that this is due to gripping the unit and pressing the buttons.

During my drive to work this morning I ran my 60csx, PN-40 and 62st. All were started at the same time, turned off at the same time, and sat in the passenger seat of the car in the same way. Periodically during the commute I reached over to each GPS in turn and pressed the "Page" button precisely five times. I always did the 60csx first, the PN-40 second and the 62st last. During one part of the trip I refrained from touching the units at all, to act as a control. And at one point in the trip I pressed the Page button five times, AND held the unit in my hands, squeezing the unit firmly repeatedly as one might do while holding it in regular use.

When I got to work, I used GPSBabel to export the tracks from each unit. I then used Perl and Excel and plotted the altitude data. The X axis is TIME; the Y axis is altitude.



You can clearly see the spikes from the 62st when the buttons were pushed. You can also clearly see the much longer period of instability when the unit was simply being gripped, no buttons pressed.

None of the other units show ANY sign of similar failure.

I will contact Garmin Support and send them this. Sadly I consider the unit badly flawed at this point. If anyone wants the raw GPX files and/or the Excel spreadsheet let me know.

...Sam

[sammydee]

The raw data is available here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0As...uthkey=CJGmvZIJ

A higher resolution version of the chart is here:

http://www.flickr.co...N00/4876879322/

[yogazoo]

Excellent data comparison and analysis sammydee! If only Garmin engineers were as on top of their product as you are. I can see MAYBE if you press the buttons you'd get the pressure shift but handling the unit as well? The case of the 62 flexes so much that it effects the pressure data by simply gripping it normally? Speaks to the poor, cheap, flimsy construction of the shell. This is a very troubling problem as well because it's a hardware issue. You can't fix the flimsy shell of the 62 with a firmware update.

ryan3295,

Garmin refuses to replace any more units due to the squeaking/flimsy case annoyance. I called again this afternoon hoping to get a different tech support person, which I did, who told me again about the email they all received this morning about the issue. Apparently there are alot of unhappy customers so they are going to play the "It's supposed to be like that" angle so they don't lose a bunch of money in replacing the defective units. Why I keep buying Garmin products is beyond me.

This post has been edited by yogazoo: 09 August 2010 - 12:48 PM

[TheRedArmy]

yogazoo, on Aug 9 2010, 03:34 PM, said:

Garmin refuses to replace any more units due to the squeaking/flimsy case annoyance. I called again this afternoon hoping to get a different tech support person, which I did, who told me again about the email they all received this morning about the issue. Apparently there are alot of unhappy customers so they are going to play the "It's supposed to be like that" angle so they don't lose a bunch of money in replacing the defective units. Why I keep buying Garmin products is beyond me.

the rep i emailed said "it's the first i've heard of it", whatever.

so anyway, i just sent off the 3rd unit to gpscentral and they assured me they'll send a non-squeaker. we'll see.

[humboldt flier]

Geeeeez,

Maybe the guy who designed the case / antenna interface for the gen.4 iPhone helped Garmin with the case design for the 62s.

That having been said, it seems that there may be some random quirks to the 62s case.

The issues revolving around altitude and how the case is held and when buttons are pushed is most distressing. If you haven't jumped on board this train it might be appropriate to sit on the sidelines for a while.

[gpscybr]

sammydee, on Aug 9 2010, 11:58 AM, said:

The raw data is available here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0As...uthkey=CJGmvZIJ

A higher resolution version of the chart is here:

http://www.flickr.co...N00/4876879322/

You do not need to do a graph to see this. While at the altimeter page I pushed the enter button and could clearly see a spike/drop in the elevation every time I pressed the key. I tried the same procedure on my trusty 60CSx and NO spikes / drops !!!

Now what???

This post has been edited by gpscybr: 09 August 2010 - 01:55 PM

[g-o-cashers]

Avernar, on Aug 5 2010, 01:25 PM, said:

Anyone know what zoom levels custom POI are displayed?

Basically I want to know if it's like the Colorado/Oregon or like the Nuvi where it's limited to 80m or closer.

I think they start to disappear around 3mi but you can change it. It works like the Colorado/Oregon.

d.higgins, on Aug 5 2010, 11:33 PM, said:

I found this bug.
On my 62s I have UTM as the position format.
When I hit Find/Coordinates and then on the enter location screen the last 2 digits of the Northing coordinate is
off the screen.
Anyone else have this?

This is fixed in 2.4

Quote

Now the bad news.
Very very difficult to read the 62s in the shade without the backlight on bright. Very hard to see the roads with the contour lines being so dark.
The 60csx is very easy to see without the backlight on.
I think the main problem is the colors they chose to use on the 62s.
It's unfortunate, because I like the new features on the 62s, but I'm going to return mine.

Tips on how to improve readability are here (I stole these from the Oregon wiki).

http://garmingpsmap....cellaneous#toc5

Quote

Is there a way to change the display colors of the roads and contour lines on the GPSr or in Mapsource before the maps are loaded???

Not without mucking with .typ files as suggested earlier.

The Ravens, on Aug 6 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

On my 62st water is gray just like the roads.

You are in Marine mode. Setup>Marine>Marine Chart Mode>Off will fix this.

I've also seen the issue with jumpy elevation plots on my unit as well -- definitely related to squeezing the unit, pressing buttons, etc. As was posted on another thread you can see this by going to the elevation plot and watching the elevation change as you squeeze the unit, it fluctuates significantly.

I've asked Garmin about this but the response was that all units with waterproof altimeters do this (to some extent). Seems much worse on the 62s to me.

I'm assuming the 62 works the same way as all other Garmins and will record GPS elevation (vs. the bouncy altimeter elevation) in the track if you use this trick:

http://garminoregon....r#elevationtype

I'll try tonight to see if it "fixes" the issue as Timpat suggests.

This post has been edited by g-o-cashers: 09 August 2010 - 02:03 PM

[sammydee]

g-o-cashers, on Aug 9 2010, 03:02 PM, said:

I've asked Garmin about this but the response was that all units with waterproof altimeters do this (to some extent). Seems much worse on the 62s to me.

I should note that in my test all three GPSes have barometric altimeters, and only the 62st demonstrates the problem. So I believe their claim is fairly simple to disprove.

I emailed the raw data and spreadsheet to Garmin Support as they requested this afternoon, but haven't heard anything back. I will update here when they report back.

...Sam

[sammydee]

g-o-cashers, on Aug 9 2010, 03:02 PM, said:

I've asked Garmin about this but the response was that all units with waterproof altimeters do this (to some extent). Seems much worse on the 62s to me.

I should note that in my test all three GPSes have barometric altimeters, and only the 62st demonstrates the problem. So I believe their claim is fairly simple to disprove.

I emailed the raw data and spreadsheet to Garmin Support as they requested this afternoon, but haven't heard anything back. I will update here when they report back.

...Sam

[lalittle]

Timpat, on Aug 9 2010, 03:50 AM, said:

Can you disable the electronic barometer and let it use GPS data? This would be another test to pinpoint the issue, but sure doesn't excuse this finding.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think this is what the "Barometer Mode" setting does. If it's set to "Variable elevation," I believe it uses the barometric pressure to obtain elevation, whereas the "Fixed elevation" uses the GPS data.

I did some experimenting with the "Elevation over time" altimeter plot, which allows you to watch the elevation plot in real time by zooming way in on the x-axis. If I use the "Variable elevation" setting, I see a relatively smooth plot as long as I let the unit sit on a table. If I pick up the unit and/or press buttons, I suddenly see very obvious spikes in the plot. I then set the unit down, and the plot smooths out again.

I then switch to "Fixed elevation," and the plot stops showing the sharp spikes that I get with the "variable" mode. I still see some odd variations, but it's no longer "spiky." I'm not yet sure, but the variance in "fixed" mode may simply be caused by weak satellite signals since I did the experiment indoors. I'll try this outdoors next and report back.

My experiments so far appear to show that the "spiking" issue is specific to the "Variable elevation" setting, which uses pressure to determine elevation. UPDATE: Please see my followup post with new information on the effects of Fixed vs Variable elevation modes on the spiking: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=4429657
The altimeter in this unit seems to be overly sensitive to handling, where lightly pressing a button can alter the reading significantly.

Something else, however, came up in my experiments, which is that the plot that's being drawn is sometimes distinctly different than the current reading indicates. By this I mean that when the unit was just sitting on the table and drawing the plot, the elevation consistently read around 890 ft. (using "fixed" mode.) The plot being drawn during this time, however, was up around 925 ft. In other words, even though the plot read a relatively consistent 890 ft., when I scrolled back over the plot it showed a consistent 925 ft. during the period I had just been watching (which, once again, read 890 ft. during this period.) The plot being drawn was NOT reflecting the current elevation being shown -- it was about 35 feet off. This just doesn't make sense to me, but it's definitely what I saw.

Larry

This post has been edited by lalittle: 10 August 2010 - 12:18 AM

[sviking]

g-o-cashers, on Aug 9 2010, 03:02 PM, said:

I've asked Garmin about this but the response was that all units with waterproof altimeters do this (to some extent).

Bullcrap. My 60CSx fluctuates about +/- 15 or so feet in altitude when held and pressing buttons...SAME as it already does without being held.

[The Ravens]

g-o-cashers, on Aug 9 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

Avernar, on Aug 5 2010, 01:25 PM, said:

Anyone know what zoom levels custom POI are displayed?

Basically I want to know if it's like the Colorado/Oregon or like the Nuvi where it's limited to 80m or closer.

I think they start to disappear around 3mi but you can change it. It works like the Colorado/Oregon.

d.higgins, on Aug 5 2010, 11:33 PM, said:

I found this bug.
On my 62s I have UTM as the position format.
When I hit Find/Coordinates and then on the enter location screen the last 2 digits of the Northing coordinate is
off the screen.
Anyone else have this?

This is fixed in 2.4

Quote

Now the bad news.
Very very difficult to read the 62s in the shade without the backlight on bright. Very hard to see the roads with the contour lines being so dark.
The 60csx is very easy to see without the backlight on.
I think the main problem is the colors they chose to use on the 62s.
It's unfortunate, because I like the new features on the 62s, but I'm going to return mine.

Tips on how to improve readability are here (I stole these from the Oregon wiki).

http://garmingpsmap....cellaneous#toc5

Quote

Is there a way to change the display colors of the roads and contour lines on the GPSr or in Mapsource before the maps are loaded???

Not without mucking with .typ files as suggested earlier.

The Ravens, on Aug 6 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

On my 62st water is gray just like the roads.

You are in Marine mode. Setup>Marine>Marine Chart Mode>Off will fix this.

I've also seen the issue with jumpy elevation plots on my unit as well -- definitely related to squeezing the unit, pressing buttons, etc. As was posted on another thread you can see this by going to the elevation plot and watching the elevation change as you squeeze the unit, it fluctuates significantly.

I've asked Garmin about this but the response was that all units with waterproof altimeters do this (to some extent). Seems much worse on the 62s to me.

I'm assuming the 62 works the same way as all other Garmins and will record GPS elevation (vs. the bouncy altimeter elevation) in the track if you use this trick:

http://garminoregon....r#elevationtype

I'll try tonight to see if it "fixes" the issue as Timpat suggests.

Excellent!! I now have BLUE water! Now.. how to adjust the volume??

This post has been edited by The Ravens: 09 August 2010 - 07:12 PM

[d.higgins]

Far what it's worth, my 62s will get a lock on the satellites in my basement and the my 60csx will not.
The 62s also gets a lock on the satellites faster than my 60csx when outside.

Thanks for all the tips.
I upgraded to 2.40, it fixed the data entry field.
Turning off land cover and dem helped a lot. I still like the colors of the contours and roads used on the 60csx better.
I was going to send it back, but I think I'll keep it, squeaks and all!!

[yogazoo]

Regarding the elevation spikes when pressing buttons issue.

I'm no math genius but wouldn't it be easy enough to smooth the data from the barometer? Couldn't you write an algorithym that would smooth all unreasonable jumps in elevation? I'm probably not going to jump 80ft in less than a fraction of a second. Simple firmware fix could solve the issue.

[gpscybr]

I also was amazed when I got a lock in my basement!
Seems like it gets better reception than the 60CSx so far ...

[sammydee]

I did another comparison on the way home tonight. Same as before ... ran all 3 GPSes on the passenger seat while I drove home. This time I left them mostly alone; three times on the trip I pressed the keys on each unit (15 times each).

Here are the results.



All three units seem to use different algorithms to calibrate their barometers. It takes them a while to do so, but once they do the curves all look very similar ... except for the three quite obvious spots where I touched the 62st and it went crazy. I don't see any similar artifacts on the 60csx or the PN-40.

I think that positively demonstrates that:

1. The glitches are due to pressing keys on the 62st.

2. This is NOT normal behavior for other GPSes with barometric altimeters. It's a bug in the 62st that needs to be fixed ASAP.

Again, spreadsheet and GPX files are available upon request.

I will post this to gba.net, geocaching.com and will send it to Garmin Support.

...Sam

[sammydee]

yogazoo, on Aug 9 2010, 10:18 PM, said:

Regarding the elevation spikes when pressing buttons issue.

I'm no math genius but wouldn't it be easy enough to smooth the data from the barometer? Couldn't you write an algorithym that would smooth all unreasonable jumps in elevation? I'm probably not going to jump 80ft in less than a fraction of a second. Simple firmware fix could solve the issue.

Agreed. Not sure if 'solve' is the right word ... 'hide' seems better. But yes, such a firmware filter would be better than recalling the units in the field ... and far better than ignoring the problem. I would be happy to help test such a fix.

[sammydee]

yogazoo, on Aug 9 2010, 10:18 PM, said:

Regarding the elevation spikes when pressing buttons issue.

I'm no math genius but wouldn't it be easy enough to smooth the data from the barometer? Couldn't you write an algorithym that would smooth all unreasonable jumps in elevation? I'm probably not going to jump 80ft in less than a fraction of a second. Simple firmware fix could solve the issue.

Agreed. Not sure if 'solve' is the right word ... 'hide' seems better. But yes, such a firmware filter would be better than recalling the units in the field ... and far better than ignoring the problem. I would be happy to help test such a fix.

[yogazoo]

g-o-cashers, on Aug 9 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

I'm assuming the 62 works the same way as all other Garmins and will record GPS elevation (vs. the bouncy altimeter elevation) in the track if you use this trick:

http://garminoregon....r#elevationtype

I'll try tonight to see if it "fixes" the issue as Timpat suggests.

It doesn't appear to work on the 62. When I change to "Fixed Elevation" and press buttons while watching the elevation plot I still get spikes.

[lalittle]

yogazoo, on Aug 10 2010, 12:26 AM, said:

g-o-cashers, on Aug 9 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

I'm assuming the 62 works the same way as all other Garmins and will record GPS elevation (vs. the bouncy altimeter elevation) in the track if you use this trick:

http://garminoregon....r#elevationtype

I'll try tonight to see if it "fixes" the issue as Timpat suggests.

It doesn't appear to work on the 62. When I change to "Fixed Elevation" and press buttons while watching the elevation plot I still get spikes.

This is interesting because I am definitely seeing different behavior when I use "fixed elevation" mode on my 62st. I don't know if you saw it, but I posted about this above:

Post describing Variable vs Fixed Elevation mode behavior on my 62st

When I change to "Fixed Elevation" the spikes in the plot definitely disappear. HOWEVER, I did some more testing and things got even more interesting.

What I found was that while the PLOT smoothed out after switching to "Fixed elevation," the "current elevation" reading and the "elevation gain" continued to record the spikes. In other words, if I did not touch the unit, the elevation stayed between 832 and 834 feet where I was testing -- i.e. VERY stable readings. If I picked up the unit and started pressing buttons, I saw the current elevation reading start fluctuating between about 800 and 900 feet. The "total ascent" reading (which I have on the altimeter page) also reflected these spikes, meaning that as I pressed buttons, I watched the total ascent climb by about 30 or 40 feet over 20 or thirty seconds of button pressing.

I could also see the spikes on the far right edge of the plot, BUT the plot did not actually RECORD these spikes. Rather, the recorded plot continued to show a smooth line. In other words, the unit appeared to be smoothing the plot as it was being drawn. Even though I saw violent spikes on the right edge as was being drawn, these spikes did not show up in the actual "finished" graph.

Yogazoo -- I'm wondering if you were just watching the far right edge of the plot, or if you actually waited to see how the graph looked after a few minutes of drawing.

My latest observations are that the unit continues to "see" spikes even in "Fixed elevation" mode, but that the elevation graph either does not "record" them, or that it smooths them out. The end result is that even in Fixed Elevation mode, the "current elevation" and "total ascent" values are still subject to the spikes.

Larry

This post has been edited by lalittle: 10 August 2010 - 04:00 PM

[Marky]

yogazoo, on Aug 10 2010, 12:26 AM, said:

g-o-cashers, on Aug 9 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

I'm assuming the 62 works the same way as all other Garmins and will record GPS elevation (vs. the bouncy altimeter elevation) in the track if you use this trick:

http://garminoregon....r#elevationtype

I'll try tonight to see if it "fixes" the issue as Timpat suggests.

It doesn't appear to work on the 62. When I change to "Fixed Elevation" and press buttons while watching the elevation plot I still get spikes.

I don't know which '62' you have, but unless its a '62s*', then it doesn't have barometric altimeter, so that setting isn't going to make a difference for a '62'. If you are seeing spikes in a '62', then it could be because you are changing the orientation of the '62' and it's getting difference satellite data.

--Marky

[yogazoo]

62s - the one with the electronic sensors. Still spikes in fixed elevation mode.

[sammydee]

I did another head-to-head test on my commute today...the PN-40 with the barometer vs. the 62st in "Fixed" mode (allegedly disabling the barometer and reporting GPS elevation).

The GPX results are indeed much smoother, and don't show any sign of spiking when buttons are pressed. (I didn't look at the 62st's on-device altitude track, so I don't know if it made a difference there or not. I would hope so.)

HOWEVER the results vary dramatically from the other runs. In other runs comparing the 60csx, PN-40 and 62st the 3 GPSes altitude solutions would typically match to within a couple of meters (once the units all finished calibrating, which could take a while). However, comparing the PN-40 barometer track and the 62st non-barometer track the altitude solutions were often off by 10 meters or more.

So while turning off the barometer makes the button interference problem "go away" in the GPX track, naturally taking out the barometer subjects the user to the whims of GPS altitude calculations, which are known to be dodgy ... and are the reason why folks put barometers in GPSes in the first place.

Garmin either needs to fix the mechanicals of the 62s[t] so pushing the buttons doesn't impact the altimeter (as they had successfully done in the "gold standard" 60csx), or at minimum filter the results in software. The GPS knows when the buttons are pressed, after all, and could easily throw away the altitude readings for several hundred milliseconds before and a second or two after any button press. That would probably hide most of the problem, though a true fix would involve fixing the mechanical separation between the barometer and the buttons. As was done successfully in the 60csx and PN-40.

Note that on the PN-40 and the "gold standard" 60csx not only is the case quite rigid, but the buttons only travel a very short distance when pressed. On the 62st the button travel is dramatically greater, thus increasing the amount of air being pushed around.

Still waiting for comment from Garmin Support. They didn't give me a case number, just asked me to email data to someone.

...Sam

[sammydee]

I called Garmin Support for an update.

They did their own in-house testing in Support and verified that, sure enough, pressing the buttons on the 62st causes disruption to the altitude data that the GPS records.

They passed the information on to Engineering, and have not yet heard back.

Support noted that the 62st has the barometer in a different internal location than the 60csx, which they think is part of the reason for the poorer behavior of the 62st vs. the 60csx.

Reasonably enough, they could not commit today to whether there would be a fix or not, nor to when we might expect a reply from Engineering.

I made it clear that the acceptable outcomes to me are either a software fix, a hardware fix, or a complete refund on the unit. The support engineer understood, but reasonably enough could not commit to anything today.

The support engineer agreed to contact me when he hears from Engineering. If I haven't heard from him in 7 days I will contact him again, and will let you know what I find out.

...Sam

[robertlipe]

Makes sense. The altimiter works by sensing air pressure. If the case flexes enough to change the volume of the case faster than the external vent thingy will let it equalize, it's going to change the air pressure.

That doesn't mean it's right...

[yogazoo]

sammydee, on Aug 10 2010, 01:11 PM, said:

They did their own in-house testing in Support and verified that, sure enough, pressing the buttons on the 62st causes disruption to the altitude data that the GPS records.

They passed the information on to Engineering, and have not yet heard back.

I don't know why but I just started laughing when I read this. It's as if the engineering doesn't even see the unit until afer it's released to the public. Everything seems to be a surprise to them. It's as though they don't take an interest in playing with the products they engineer as much as most of the people in these forums.

Man, if we could all just get togther and design a GPS it would be the end-all be-all. Or if a company would sit us all down in a room for a few hours they would have the market-cornering outdoor/geocaching GPS.

I digress.

[TheRedArmy]

yogazoo, on Aug 10 2010, 08:16 PM, said:

I don't know why but I just started laughing when I read this. It's as if the engineering doesn't even see the unit until afer it's released to the public. Everything seems to be a surprise to them. It's as though they don't take an interest in playing with the products they engineer as much as most of the people in these forums.

Man, if we could all just get togther and design a GPS it would be the end-all be-all. Or if a company would sit us all down in a room for a few hours they would have the market-cornering outdoor/geocaching GPS.

I digress.

you would thing they would have some sort of beta testing team. get 100 people to use the units months in advance, work out all the glitches and problems, then release it.

[gpscybr]

brucered, on Aug 10 2010, 06:21 PM, said:

yogazoo, on Aug 10 2010, 08:16 PM, said:

I don't know why but I just started laughing when I read this. It's as if the engineering doesn't even see the unit until afer it's released to the public. Everything seems to be a surprise to them. It's as though they don't take an interest in playing with the products they engineer as much as most of the people in these forums.

Man, if we could all just get togther and design a GPS it would be the end-all be-all. Or if a company would sit us all down in a room for a few hours they would have the market-cornering outdoor/geocaching GPS.

I digress.

you would thing they would have some sort of beta testing team. get 100 people to use the units months in advance, work out all the glitches and problems, then release it.

Why do it when they know there are guys like us, early adopters (a.k.a. guinea pigs) that will pay $500+ to do it for them LOL

Seriously what do we do - return the units to the store we bought them while there is still time to do so or have faith in Garmin to recall the units / quickly fix these seemingly major hardware flaws?

I am torn, because other that this confirmed serious altimeter issue and hit and miss squeaky case issue (geeze, do i need more "other thans"?), I like my new 62ST.

[Roarmeister]

yogazoo, on Aug 9 2010, 07:17 AM, said:

Called Garmin this morning to talk to them about my replacement (second one) flimsy-sided, squeaky unit and the tech-rep said he received an e-mail this morning from engineering stating that the flimsyness and squeaking are NOT defects and will no longer be exchanged.

Hmm, some units squeak and some units side plastic pushes in and feels flimsy and others don't. This isn't a defect? This electronic equipment that I just paid top-dollar for shouldn't feel and sound like a cheap piece of $#!T in my hand. Just be aware as a consumer, if your considering this product, that the designers and engineers call this normal and don't plan on addressing it in any way. So buyer beware, you may get a flimsy squeaker or you may get a solid unit, flip a coin.

I am going to side with Garmin on this instead of trigger happy technoids. Without taking it apart and analyzing the true cause - I strongly suspect that the squeak is a result of the two layers of the case. The rubberized outer layer and the inner hard plastic. The glue (if there is any) that keeps them together has dried out so when you press on the outer rubber it rubs against the inner plastic. The rubberized outer layer is there for water proofness as it seals the unit better than the hard shell of the 60 series. When I first looked at the unit itself, I remarked at how robust the battery compartment was and that it appeared to be better at keeping out moisture than the 60.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Seriously though, I have no idea why it squeaks and unless this issue is anything more than cosmetic I am going to keep my little squeaker and keep on caching.

Anybody got the guts to actually put the unit to a submerged water test?

[G.O. John and Carol]

Got my little squeaker (more like creaker) today. I'm in the camp that doesn't much care about the noise. I probably wouldn't have given it a second thought if it hadn't been mentioned here.

There are plenty of things I'm going to like about this unit, and some I don't care too much for. I'm moving from a 60csx, and I LOVE the compass on the 62. The electronic compass was a waste of money for me on the 60, and it was always off.

I wish the 62 could handle a zipped gpz file, but I'll probably be loading it from GSAK most of the time anyway. Can't wait to give it a good workout!