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PLEASE READ Help needed to find missing hiker!

#1 User is offline   Indiangrass 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:41 AM

We have a missing hiker in Allegheny State Park, NY. Cachers could be of help here because one recovered member of the hiking party has given a description (drawing) of a structure in the woods not commonly known. It would be good to broadly ask the cache community to look at it and see if it is recognized ...to narrow the search area. See: http://www.wgrz.com/news/local/story.aspx?...mp;provider=top to view picture and read story. Please help if you can!
Thank you.

#2 User is offline   gpsfun 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 06:52 AM

As of yesterday, November 14, there were already more than 200 searchers working with the police there.

Before going to the area, it will be best to check in with the authorities there to see if more help, and what kind of help, may be needed.

#3 User is offline   John in Valley Forge 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 07:28 AM

Posted Image

I agree that one should check with authorities before heading out there to join the search.

I think the request from Indiangrass is long the lines of "Does anyone that has been there recognize this structure?". It was posted in the MidAtlantic forum yesterday, but that forum does not receive as much traffic as this one. Hopefully something in the photo above (a sketch made from the recollections of the daughter of the missing man) may trigger a memory of a cacher.

There is more information int he link provided by Indiangrass, so if anyone here has ever been to Allegheny State Park in NY, it would be worthwhile to read the news story and check their memories. Looking at the comments on the TV station website, quite a few people have been looking through their old photograph collections and linking to possible spots. Maybe someone has stumbled across something like this while bushwacking for a cache, or have looked at it as a potential cache hiding spot.

#4 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:30 AM

Sure looks to me like the lower end of a concrete storm sewer.

#5 User is offline   narcissa 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:02 AM

Have you posted this in a regional forum? You'll get a higher concentration of geocachers likely to be familiar with the area.

#6 User is offline   Mr.Yuck 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:14 AM

View Postnarcissa, on Nov 15 2010, 09:02 AM, said:

Have you posted this in a regional forum? You'll get a higher concentration of geocachers likely to be familiar with the area.


I disagree. I can't speak for them all, but the Mid-Atlantic forum is often dead as a doornail. I'd vote for leaving it here. I'm familar with the story, but this is the first I've heard of this drawing.

#7 User is offline   addisonbr 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:24 AM

View PostMr.Yuck, on Nov 15 2010, 09:14 AM, said:

View Postnarcissa, on Nov 15 2010, 09:02 AM, said:

Have you posted this in a regional forum? You'll get a higher concentration of geocachers likely to be familiar with the area.

I disagree. I can't speak for them all, but the Mid-Atlantic forum is often dead as a doornail. I'd vote for leaving it here. I'm familar with the story, but this is the first I've heard of this drawing.

I agree with you about the Mid-Atlantic forum on the Groundspeak servers. That said, I've found the forums hosted on regional geocaching organization sites to be pretty active and helpful. Posting on NY / PA message boards might be a way to go.

#8 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:57 AM

That 'object' is about the same size as a pickup or large car... both of which can be seen in Google Earth...
Anyone else been scanning the park looking for anything that size? I've just been reading the comments in that link... I thought WE had some bozos... but there is information to be gleaned as well... I'd like to know the area of the park that is in question to help with the image viewing... so the comments are helping a bit... too bad they don't have that mentioned, but as I'm SAR I understand the reasons... I've also been looking through the GE panoramio pics and soon to start on images linked to the park... Has anyone checked for caches in the park... I think a structure like that, if disused might attract one... at least nearby... pics in logs?

Still thinking... It has been too many years since I was down there... but first thought on the pic in general, was that it was a base... perhaps a boiler or hopper/tank? If it was painted, it can't be too old, cement tends to chuck that off fairly quickly... hmm

Back to reading and thinking...

Doug 7rxc

#9 User is offline   bramasoleiowa 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:00 AM

We'll help look when we're in the area for Geowoodstock next summer.

#10 User is offline   Lovejoy and Tinker 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:07 AM

Hope the old boy is ok and that they find him safe.

#11 User is offline   Ecylram 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:08 AM

View PostMr.Yuck, on Nov 15 2010, 10:14 AM, said:

View Postnarcissa, on Nov 15 2010, 09:02 AM, said:

Have you posted this in a regional forum? You'll get a higher concentration of geocachers likely to be familiar with the area.


I disagree. I can't speak for them all, but the Mid-Atlantic forum is often dead as a doornail. I'd vote for leaving it here. I'm familar with the story, but this is the first I've heard of this drawing.

I second Mr. Yuck. Leave it here as this is an unusual circumstance.

#12 User is offline   Lovejoy and Tinker 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:10 AM

View Postbramasoleiowa, on Nov 15 2010, 06:00 PM, said:

We'll help look when we're in the area for Geowoodstock next summer.

Either you haven't read the thread properly or that's a pretty poor joke.
There's an old man in his 90's missing in a park and his family are probably beside themselves wondering if he is alive.

#13 User is offline   John in Valley Forge 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:11 AM

View PostEcylram, on Nov 15 2010, 10:08 AM, said:

View PostMr.Yuck, on Nov 15 2010, 10:14 AM, said:

View Postnarcissa, on Nov 15 2010, 09:02 AM, said:

Have you posted this in a regional forum? You'll get a higher concentration of geocachers likely to be familiar with the area.


I disagree. I can't speak for them all, but the Mid-Atlantic forum is often dead as a doornail. I'd vote for leaving it here. I'm familar with the story, but this is the first I've heard of this drawing.

I second Mr. Yuck. Leave it here as this is an unusual circumstance.



It WAS posted there yesterday and had very few views until it got cross posted here. This forum seems a bit more lively and maybe someone that does not live in the area may have vacationed there.

#14 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:16 AM

Allegany State Park Outdoor Museum WM1XA6
edit: N 42 06.041 W 078 45.032


I was searching images on Google... I came across a Waymark as above...

Those gallery pics are interesting... there was a CCC built Zoo there... in one there is a picture of
a 'pavilion' structure... and another has one of a cage base / pit... anyone local know that area

Going back to looking

Doug 7rxc

This post has been edited by 7rxc: 15 November 2010 - 10:47 AM


#15 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:20 AM

Someone has posted a link to a photo of a "Sweetwater Spring" that somewhat resembles the drawing.

#16 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:51 AM

View Postknowschad, on Nov 15 2010, 11:20 AM, said:

Someone has posted a link to a photo of a "Sweetwater Spring" that somewhat resembles the drawing.


Someone else posted a NOT! somewhere there... I just edited my previous... with the coords and WM#
take a look at those...

Too bad we don't get the search notes... but apparently she was found not far from there...
and memory under stress modifies things remembered... trust me on that... I had a head injury... things don't come back quite the way you remember... same for stress.

I have more data mining to do.

Doug 7rxc

#17 User is offline   dakboy 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:04 AM

View Postaddisonbr, on Nov 15 2010, 12:24 PM, said:

View PostMr.Yuck, on Nov 15 2010, 09:14 AM, said:

View Postnarcissa, on Nov 15 2010, 09:02 AM, said:

Have you posted this in a regional forum? You'll get a higher concentration of geocachers likely to be familiar with the area.

I disagree. I can't speak for them all, but the Mid-Atlantic forum is often dead as a doornail. I'd vote for leaving it here. I'm familar with the story, but this is the first I've heard of this drawing.

I agree with you about the Mid-Atlantic forum on the Groundspeak servers. That said, I've found the forums hosted on regional geocaching organization sites to be pretty active and helpful. Posting on NY / PA message boards might be a way to go.

I've posted it to the Rochester site.

#18 User is offline   John in Valley Forge 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:04 AM

View Post7rxc, on Nov 15 2010, 10:51 AM, said:

View Postknowschad, on Nov 15 2010, 11:20 AM, said:

Someone has posted a link to a photo of a "Sweetwater Spring" that somewhat resembles the drawing.


Someone else posted a NOT! somewhere there... I just edited my previous... with the coords and WM#
take a look at those...

Too bad we don't get the search notes... but apparently she was found not far from there...
and memory under stress modifies things remembered... trust me on that... I had a head injury... things don't come back quite the way you remember... same for stress.

I have more data mining to do.

Doug 7rxc


Could you clarify that? What do you mean by a NOT?
And she was found not far from Where? I think I did read somewhere that they were on the Sweetwater trail.

I think your find of the old zoo might be the closest thing I have seen so far. I looked at lots of pics of the sweetwater springs last night, but the bear pit looks more like it. Remember, the daughter is probably a bit disoriented and distraught.

#19 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:15 AM

View PostJohn in Valley Forge, on Nov 15 2010, 12:04 PM, said:

View Post7rxc, on Nov 15 2010, 10:51 AM, said:

Someone else posted a NOT! somewhere there... I just edited my previous... with the coords and WM#
take a look at those...

Too bad we don't get the search notes... but apparently she was found not far from there...
and memory under stress modifies things remembered... trust me on that... I had a head injury... things don't come back quite the way you remember... same for stress.

I have more data mining to do.

Doug 7rxc


Could you clarify that? What do you mean by a NOT?
And she was found not far from Where? I think I did read somewhere that they were on the Sweetwater trail.

I think your find of the old zoo might be the closest thing I have seen so far. I looked at lots of pics of the sweetwater springs last night, but the bear pit looks more like it. Remember, the daughter is probably a bit disoriented and distraught.

I thought I saw a reference to someone pointing out the disimilarity of the sketch vs posted pic.
Also though the more recent posting was not the first one of that pic... I'll check.

As for the disorientation , I mentioned that... we deal with this often... I'm SAR out here.
I don't want to jump the gun on that spec of mine, but it is similar... just wish we had the find point
I'm starting to think about the high point to the west as a possible 'destination' feature as well.
I don't know WHERE she was found... one of the 'linked' posters indicated they did and was chastised for not reporting it... one should use the official channels... for things like that... if a local or OP feel that what I've
come up with 'clicks' then that is the route to go... I've been trying to get something other than phone or especially the news media route... and forget the 'blog' thing... This is trying out ideas.

Doug 7rxc

#20 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:22 AM

The coords for the old zoo are quite close to both a road, and some houses/buildings, although I realize that you can still wander around for 4 hours when that close to civilization and not know it.

The drawing specifically says that the walls are "concrete or cement" and painted white. Seems odd to me that they'd be that specific, yet wrong (as in stone walls).

I still say that this sounds more like a modern drain structure of some sort.

There are also some colors mentioned near the bottom of the drawing... cobalt blue, yellow, and some others that are obscured by the logo. Odd...

#21 User is offline   MontyFam 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:33 AM

Leave it up to the TV station to release a pic asking for help and cover part of the important info with their logo and the current temp and time!
I hope they find the ol' fella!!

#22 User is offline   John in Valley Forge 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:35 AM

View Post7rxc, on Nov 15 2010, 11:15 AM, said:


I don't want to jump the gun on that spec of mine, but it is similar...

Doug 7rxc



I thought it was similar enough to jump the gun and call the park police.
It turns out that the buildings across the road as mentioned in Knowschad's post are actually the park administration buildings where the park police phone rings.

When I mentioned the outdoor museum/zoo he said he knows it well, he can practically see it from his desk. Also that I was one of many persons calling in referencing that location. Sadly it the man is not there and the search continues.

He thanked me for the tip and I wished him luck.

If anyone else finds a promising location, go ahead and call the park police at 716-354-9111. They are thankful for the efforts being put forth.

#23 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:35 AM

Here's another article with a detail missing from the other report:

Hamilton, who still presides over weekly Bible classes at the church, and his daughter, Rebecca Huffman, 72, visited the park Wednesday to hike the woods, and ventured onto an unmarked trail near the Summit Area.

Edited to add another link with another detail:

a 3 foot high white concrete structure that is 15-20 feet long and 6 feet wide,
with an opening or entranceway with an inlayed mosiac floor

That mosaic, may be the "cobalt blue" and "yellow" colors mentioned on the drawing.

This post has been edited by knowschad: 15 November 2010 - 11:43 AM


#24 User is offline   bramasoleiowa 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 12:57 PM

Knowschad-
Based on the links you provided, it sounds like it could be the foundation for the foyer of a church from an old township back before the area became a park.

edit: foyer. 6ft wide is narrow.

This post has been edited by bramasoleiowa: 15 November 2010 - 12:58 PM


#25 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 01:30 PM

View PostJohn in Valley Forge, on Nov 15 2010, 12:35 PM, said:

View Post7rxc, on Nov 15 2010, 11:15 AM, said:

I don't want to jump the gun on that spec of mine, but it is similar...
Doug 7rxc


I thought it was similar enough to jump the gun and call the park police.
It turns out that the buildings across the road as mentioned in Knowschad's post are actually the park administration buildings where the park police phone rings.

When I mentioned the outdoor museum/zoo he said he knows it well, he can practically see it from his desk. Also that I was one of many persons calling in referencing that location. Sadly it the man is not there and the search continues.

He thanked me for the tip and I wished him luck.

If anyone else finds a promising location, go ahead and call the park police at 716-354-9111. They are thankful for the efforts being put forth.


Thanks for taking the time... If I was sure, I still could not have called... no phone available to me.
Did you ask if they had a listing of KNOWN facts? They probably wouldn't release it anyway... except as news release. They don't like lookie loos [sic] and well meaning people under foot... hints yes. ideas yes, if well considered... spouting off, nyah! Good to seek some consensus, at least we agreed it was someplace worth checking out... they did too.

KC: thanks for the news research... best I can come up with for Summit is the location of the restored fire tower... which is east of the Stone Tower... Still wish to have where the car was parked and where she came out of the woods... but again that is stuff that is best kept secure until it's finished with...

bramasole: I like that thinking... did you see one of KC's sites had a comment about it sounded like a
spring house... that could also imply bathhouse or spa... mineral spring???

Sure hope this gentleman survives the ordeal.

Doug 7rxc

#26 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 01:44 PM

View Post7rxc, on Nov 15 2010, 03:30 PM, said:

View PostJohn in Valley Forge, on Nov 15 2010, 12:35 PM, said:

View Post7rxc, on Nov 15 2010, 11:15 AM, said:

I don't want to jump the gun on that spec of mine, but it is similar...
Doug 7rxc


I thought it was similar enough to jump the gun and call the park police.
It turns out that the buildings across the road as mentioned in Knowschad's post are actually the park administration buildings where the park police phone rings.

When I mentioned the outdoor museum/zoo he said he knows it well, he can practically see it from his desk. Also that I was one of many persons calling in referencing that location. Sadly it the man is not there and the search continues.

He thanked me for the tip and I wished him luck.

If anyone else finds a promising location, go ahead and call the park police at 716-354-9111. They are thankful for the efforts being put forth.


Thanks for taking the time... If I was sure, I still could not have called... no phone available to me.
Did you ask if they had a listing of KNOWN facts? They probably wouldn't release it anyway... except as news release. They don't like lookie loos [sic] and well meaning people under foot... hints yes. ideas yes, if well considered... spouting off, nyah! Good to seek some consensus, at least we agreed it was someplace worth checking out... they did too.

KC: thanks for the news research... best I can come up with for Summit is the location of the restored fire tower... which is east of the Stone Tower... Still wish to have where the car was parked and where she came out of the woods... but again that is stuff that is best kept secure until it's finished with...

bramasole: I like that thinking... did you see one of KC's sites had a comment about it sounded like a
spring house... that could also imply bathhouse or spa... mineral spring???

Sure hope this gentleman survives the ordeal.

Doug 7rxc
Any idea how the location of the ruins of the old town New Ireland are in relation to where you believe the Summit location is?

I agree, it would be helpful to have some more facts to work with!

#27 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 02:09 PM

Here is a clearer version of the sketch, without the obscuring logo:
Posted Image

#28 User is offline   thecaswellfamily 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 02:20 PM

I hope and pray that he is found alive and okay... and I really REALLY want to know what that structure is and I wanna go see it!

#29 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 02:25 PM

View Postknowschad, on Nov 15 2010, 02:44 PM, said:

Any idea how the location of the ruins of the old town New Ireland are in relation to where you believe the Summit location is?

I agree, it would be helpful to have some more facts to work with!


Yes... facts are good to use... but many prefer to use speculation... which has it time/place of course.

As for New Ireland, NO i don't have any idea exactly... I saw some pics of old NI homes foundations while browsing flickr... one had a comment that seemed to indicate that it was over near Limestone.. to the S.E. I think.

There was a reference to them being on the Sweet Springs Trail at one point... that probably tied into the original springs photo. But also says they were on an unmarked trail away from the road.
In these cases it's very nice to know where they intended to go, where they parked, where anyone was found etc. Also likely points of egress from those areas... which is why we want to know that.

The ASP website has a very nice pdf map of the area... doesn't seem to ID all the trails well. Deep down I don't know that they would attempt anything major if it involved going up to far, so knowing where they started would be very nice (car park). If the lady was trying to get help, while lost, they most likely went down hill (sometimes a very bad idea) or if dark, towards town lights or similar. Would have likely avoided heading into thick brush in favour of the easier route available, if possible. But no one should count on what a lost person will do... there was a guy in Alaska or Yukon that was lost and crossed the Alcan highway many times, heading back into the bush... no one knows why.... just did.

I've been trying to search known ruins in the park and area... like those pics on flickr... some people thrive on that... and post...

Guess I'll go and mine some info from the OP link... they might have updated again.

Thanks for posting that better pic... the other chap hit the one from the video clip. I was about to myself.
want to examine it closer as well.

Doug 7rxc

#30 User is offline   Castle Mischief 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 02:38 PM

I was doing some google image search detective work and I found this:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:JGVykNY.../img_6915db.jpg

That links to a blog that appears to no longer be in use. I can't find the full size link but it looks similar to the drawing.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...ch:1&itbs=1

This post has been edited by Castle Mischief: 15 November 2010 - 02:40 PM


#31 User is offline   HuggyFamily 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 04:29 PM

Been looking for clues all afternoon. Without some more detail as to where the daughter was found and/or where they started their hike, it's a pretty large area.

Here are some thoughts:

The structure looks to me like the foundation of some kind of home-made place of worship. The shape, mosaic floor, entry at one end, and low walls. Perhaps it was started and never finished. There are examples elsewhere of "mini churches" that would hold just a few people. A 6' wide x 15' long structure, with 3' high walls would require at least 2 cubic yards of cement/concrete, which if hand mixed would require around 100 - 80 lb. bags. Of course it could have been mixed on site with some natural materials, but the description does say cement/concrete....

Assuming cement was used, that is a tremendous amount to carry in by hand. I would suspect that it would have been brought in by horse and cart (or even by motor vehicle and then carried the last part perhaps). That may limit where the structure could be.

If I were building it, it would be on a hill (closer to the heavens :-)), and in some treed cover to avoid someone seeing it. I have searched some Pennsylvania antiquities sites and come up empty-handed. I panned extensively around the "summit" area of the park but the resolution would barely show a structure of that size - and if under treed cover it probably couldn't be seen at all.

All massive speculation but if it triggers ideas or thoughts by others that is good.

There must be local cachers who have hiked the park. I hope they are forum readers.

One more thought - in my experience (21 years ski patrol, SAR), lost parties often walk to the south in the daytime to keep the sun in their faces. If only we knew where she was found, that might narrow the digital search.

PH.

#32 User is offline   HuggyFamily 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:15 PM

UPDATE:

The top left corner of the structure diagram notes "Christian Hollow into valley on side of forest only". I would assume this was the description given by the daughter as to where they hiked before getting lost. Looking at the Allegheny State Park map, the trail numbered 14 is the Christian Hollow Loop. I have saved that map as an image and overlaid it in Google Earth to narrow down the visual. There is a valley and forested area to the northwest (around N42.8.181' W78 41.815')

From an elevation of 2500', a 15' - 20' structure would be about the size of your baby fingernail. The resolution of GE is decent here, but still hard to pick out something so small. Has anyone looked at Bing Maps?

PH.

#33 User is offline   BBWolf+3Pigs 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:21 PM

The Bing maps for the Park are summertime images, so very heavy tree cover. The Google maps are fall/spring will little tree cover.

#34 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 06:03 PM

Hi...

Found a listing on Flickr under New Ireland also under ASP

I took the north south and east west extremes and created 4 corner points that appear to bracket the known ruins...
at least the documented ones... the list has GPS coords for all of them... it is in one of the photos.
Also note GE places that about 6 miles away, at about 172 True


NW 42 02.236 -78 41.561
NE 42 02.236 -78 40.700
SW 42 02.104 -78 41.561
SE 42 02.104 -78 40.700

Doug 7rxc

This post has been edited by 7rxc: 15 November 2010 - 06:06 PM


#35 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 06:13 PM

View PostHuggyFamily, on Nov 15 2010, 06:15 PM, said:

UPDATE:

The top left corner of the structure diagram notes "Christian Hollow into valley on side of forest only". I would assume this was the description given by the daughter as to where they hiked before getting lost. Looking at the Allegheny State Park map, the trail numbered 14 is the Christian Hollow Loop. I have saved that map as an image and overlaid it in Google Earth to narrow down the visual. There is a valley and forested area to the northwest (around N42.8.181' W78 41.815')

From an elevation of 2500', a 15' - 20' structure would be about the size of your baby fingernail. The resolution of GE is decent here, but still hard to pick out something so small. Has anyone looked at Bing Maps?

PH.


Good catch... I've been scanning other things... Hey JOHN!... did THEY see that one?
BTW thats about the size of a pickup or large car... adjust your eyes to that scale... do you have 3d on...
I find that setting the exaggeration up to 3 can make things stand out a bit.. can't help resolution.

Doug 7rxc

#36 User is offline   HuggyFamily 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 07:25 PM

Thanks Doug for your efforts. In rethinking this I am wondering a few things:

1. What's the likelihood that they walked six miles through this relatively up and down terrain. He is "in shape and a jogger" according to some interviews I listened to, but he is 92, and a six mile walk is a long ways for most people. Assuming they started on the Christian Loop, they may have walked south, which as I said is often the case for lost hikers (they unconsciously face the sun, which is to the south for a good part of the day). That certainly points them toward your rectangular area.

2. There is a strong chance that the daughter, under the stress of the situation, remembered something from long ago, rather than a structure on the hike out. However, what is also interesting is that she remembered it in extreme detail (colours, dimensions, materials, etc.) but couldn't remember the way back in. That is explainable, as the terrain often looks the same after a while. Unless you were experienced, you would likely not remember details as to your path of travel, yet coming across a strange and unique structure would stick.

As you have said, lost people do strange things, so I wouldn't rule out anything.

Also, from Wikipedia: "Also a part of the history is the settlement of New Ireland (Carrollton, New York) which was formed in the early 1900s near Limestone, New York. The village since was incorporated into Limestone, New York, and no longer exists. Ruins of the old village are still visible and are accessible from the Limestone Run Road."

I assume that your photos are ruins from this area.....

Pete.

#37 User is offline   John in Valley Forge 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:09 PM

View Post7rxc, on Nov 15 2010, 06:13 PM, said:

View PostHuggyFamily, on Nov 15 2010, 06:15 PM, said:

UPDATE:

The top left corner of the structure diagram notes "Christian Hollow into valley on side of forest only". I would assume this was the description given by the daughter as to where they hiked before getting lost. Looking at the Allegheny State Park map, the trail numbered 14 is the Christian Hollow Loop. I have saved that map as an image and overlaid it in Google Earth to narrow down the visual. There is a valley and forested area to the northwest (around N42.8.181' W78 41.815')

From an elevation of 2500', a 15' - 20' structure would be about the size of your baby fingernail. The resolution of GE is decent here, but still hard to pick out something so small. Has anyone looked at Bing Maps?

PH.


Good catch... I've been scanning other things... Hey JOHN!... did THEY see that one?
BTW thats about the size of a pickup or large car... adjust your eyes to that scale... do you have 3d on...
I find that setting the exaggeration up to 3 can make things stand out a bit.. can't help resolution.

Doug 7rxc


I don't see anything there, but from what I've read, it sounds like the general area they are searching.

#38 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:32 PM

View PostJohn in Valley Forge, on Nov 15 2010, 09:09 PM, said:


I don't see anything there, but from what I've read, it sounds like the general area they are searching.


I was wondering if anyone there read that note in the corner... I missed it until it was brought to my attention.

I would assume so... in fact I assume that that was gone over in detail, or should have been. I agree that they have been operating in that area... assume they found the car there somewhere... if she didn't take it... but it sounded like she 'crawled' out and someone took her to hospital... the car would be the LKP (last known point) for him at least... aside from the picture. That note could indicate what their plans were OR the way she came down from the hill... I read it as came down the hill to the valley and stayed clear of the trees... via the creek valley... the trail and the valley take the name of Christian Hollow creek which drains it... or vice versa.
How ever if it was missed, they might be searching off a bit... right now it's just a piece of the puzzle... one of the few that WE have...

Doug 7rxc

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:56 PM

View PostHuggyFamily, on Nov 15 2010, 08:25 PM, said:

Thanks Doug for your efforts. In rethinking this I am wondering a few things:
You're Welcome, but I'm not doing that much...

1. What's the likelihood that they walked six miles through this relatively up and down terrain. He is "in shape and a jogger" according to some interviews I listened to, but he is 92, and a six mile walk is a long ways for most people. Assuming they started on the Christian Loop, they may have walked south, which as I said is often the case for lost hikers (they unconsciously face the sun, which is to the south for a good part of the day). That certainly points them toward your rectangular area.

2. There is a strong chance that the daughter, under the stress of the situation, remembered something from long ago, rather than a structure on the hike out. However, what is also interesting is that she remembered it in extreme detail (colours, dimensions, materials, etc.) but couldn't remember the way back in. That is explainable, as the terrain often looks the same after a while. Unless you were experienced, you would likely not remember details as to your path of travel, yet coming across a strange and unique structure would stick.

As you have said, lost people do strange things, so I wouldn't rule out anything.

Also, from Wikipedia: "Also a part of the history is the settlement of New Ireland (Carrollton, New York) which was formed in the early 1900s near Limestone, New York. The village since was incorporated into Limestone, New York, and no longer exists. Ruins of the old village are still visible and are accessible from the Limestone Run Road."

I assume that your photos are ruins from this area.....

Pete.


Depending on the time of day, southward makes some sense once 'disoriented'... on the initial walk, most people set out with some goal in mind... Myself I try to favour uphill and upwind... because when I'm tiring and getting cooled off, I like to go downhill with the wind at my back... it's a habit. These are older folks than me, but I've been getting close to 'old' myself, and yes I like the work done early. The morning after, your logic would probably result in trending a bit east of SE... and working around to south by mid day... I think I read she came out around 1pm?? Not sure of the rest of the timing... but it's a good thought...

That rectangle was for KC... they asked about the location.. the pics on flickr were part of some ruin survey..
those people might be the ones to be leading this hunt... local historians / preservation people... I think someone brought in a local in that field for advice... I don't think that is the area myself, but I did look around. That block represents their research and photography... not the whole possibility... I used the extents for a source area... only. They included a pic with that strip marked in as to sites and a listing.

As for people reactions to such events... anything goes... I still have some short term memory loss from an accident in 87... lets say bike helmets work when tested to the max... I can sympathize with what goes on... and what doesn't... I clearly remember things... just get the year, place and what it looked like wrong...
doesn't mean I'm wrong... obviously some of it has been changed around... construction etc. and some is the same... I just don't fight to keep accurate data from those time periods... I don't think anyone does.
As for navigation landmarks... when we were caving, we always 'remembered the parts that are different' everything else looks like rocks and mud... so I agree best way to keep oriented is basics.

I think the main purpose of this thread for me is to let people get just a glimpse of what goes on in a search... from the helpless feeling to the complex thinking that can lead to a solution or not... I've often mentioned leaving trip plans with someone, I use the adventuresmart.ca version but I assume everywhere has something similar... but sometimes even I don't, but I always let someone know somehow... except for the time we had a problem... the other side of the team anyhow...

Got to go. Thanks for the comments.

Doug 7rxc

This post has been edited by 7rxc: 16 November 2010 - 08:22 AM


#40 User is offline   Sol seaker 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:40 PM

Keep us up to date on this!!!

I'll say some prayers

#41 User is offline   John in Valley Forge 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 05:44 AM

They are still looking and getting lots of tips.
News Update

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 06:47 AM

View PostHuggyFamily, on Nov 15 2010, 07:15 PM, said:

UPDATE:

The top left corner of the structure diagram notes "Christian Hollow into valley on side of forest only". I would assume this was the description given by the daughter as to where they hiked before getting lost. Looking at the Allegheny State Park map, the trail numbered 14 is the Christian Hollow Loop. I have saved that map as an image and overlaid it in Google Earth to narrow down the visual. There is a valley and forested area to the northwest (around N42.8.181' W78 41.815')

From an elevation of 2500', a 15' - 20' structure would be about the size of your baby fingernail. The resolution of GE is decent here, but still hard to pick out something so small. Has anyone looked at Bing Maps?

PH.
I wasn't able to make out what it said in the upper-right. Thanks for putting that out here.

The coords you suggest won't Google as-is, so here is the massaged version for those that want to check: N42 8.181 W78 41.815 One thing that I "like" about that area is that the terrain seems do-able for people their age.

I understand that we are talking about a huge area here, but I'm becoming skeptical that a large concrete structure with brightly colored mosaic tiles in it, not too far off a trail, would not be rather generally known, or at least be known by park rangers.

#43 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 06:50 AM

I would never have guessed it, but those coords given by HuggyFamily are actually on a paved road that has Google Street View pics! http://goo.gl/maps/Xe8d

#44 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 07:33 AM

View Postknowschad, on Nov 16 2010, 07:50 AM, said:

I would never have guessed it, but those coords given by HuggyFamily are actually on a paved road that has Google Street View pics! http://goo.gl/maps/Xe8d


I don't know what is up with Google maps... but... the coordinates when entered to GE work fine...
In Google maps, the map takes one to a map pin centered on the ASP tree marker, but the green arrow looks to be in the correct place up north of the fire tower a bit. Nothing actually took me to what you show, although the map pin is close to there... the Google Map 3d view puts the green arrow at the expected coordinates away from the road. One thing I found was that using cut and paste for moving the coordinates was adding characters to the 'pasted' data... I had an extra decimal point in the GE one... that choked it... but pasting into 'maps' just gave the above results. Perhaps you had a bad experience...

edit: zoom out from that view... you'll find the green arrow up north by the entrance... near the north border of the park... near where hwy 17 is N/S on the east of Salamanca.
edit2: NOW I see where the extra decimal came from... you fixed it too!

I've been trying to add some clarity to the pic itself... cleaner lines and colour... but haven't come up with a decent version, but it does make it look a bit different... As for the text... I've transcribed it and looked at it and some descriptions I read / heard online... but I'm not sure about that top dimension I compared characters (not many to use though) I HEAR people read it as 16, but the 6" below is a different stroke... I think 10 is more like it based on the 'tail' position of the 0.. and the circles in the floor area... just an opinion...


I'm pretty sure that they have the area correct now... and suppress information to limit public access there.
Same for isolating the lady... one needs to keep the information as uncorrupted as possible.
Conditions have not been good lately for dogs, yet... But there are very good trackers out there of the human variety... they depend on undisturbed trails and brush... ground search is usually done AFTER
they have cleared an area. Our quest for usable information is OK, but people need to let the search managers call the shots... a lot of it is math... with a dose of field experience and psychology...

Doug 7rxc

This post has been edited by 7rxc: 16 November 2010 - 08:28 AM


#45 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 08:25 AM

Yup... they started on Sweetwater Trail, according to this report

Quote

Ms. Huffman and her father started hiking on Sweetwater Trail in the Summit area of the state park and later became disoriented as darkness fell. They strayed off the trail and spent the night huddled in darkness. Temperatures in the hills dipped into the 20s overnight Wednesday. Ms. Huffman decided to go for help on Thursday morning when her father said he was too fatigued to continue.


Am I correct that the area they are referring to is that nubbin in the North East section of the park, near the town of Salmanca?

BTW, here's the pdf map for anyone interested

#46 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 08:33 AM

That would be the area... includes the Stone Tower, some admin and facilities, the restored Summit Fire lookout tower and the cross country ski area... and the sweetwater springs (18 on the .pdf map).

edit: generated some GE coordinates for some of those ... so far. Thanks for linking the .pdf, I forgot that.

Fire Tower 42 7.552'N 78 42.073'W

Stone Tower 42 7.794'N 78 43.156'W

Doug 7rxc.

This post has been edited by 7rxc: 16 November 2010 - 08:49 AM


#47 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 08:49 AM

View Post7rxc, on Nov 16 2010, 10:33 AM, said:

That would be the area... includes the Stone Tower, some admin and facilities, the restored Summit Fire lookout tower and the cross country ski area... and the sweetwater springs (18 on the .pdf map).

Doug 7rxc.
OK, thanks.

Another article says the structure is on a hillside in a wooded area.

Curiously, it also states that they are searcing a 4100 area! I hope that is just a typical case of bad journalism, because it would certainly seem to be a tremendous waste of manpower to search that much area!

Quote

"We've got roughly 92 searchers out today and they're continuing their Type 1 and 2 searches throughout the 4100 acres," Sgt. Doty said.


#48 User is offline   7rxc 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 09:07 AM

View Postknowschad, on Nov 16 2010, 09:49 AM, said:

View Post7rxc, on Nov 16 2010, 10:33 AM, said:

That would be the area... includes the Stone Tower, some admin and facilities, the restored Summit Fire lookout tower and the cross country ski area... and the sweetwater springs (18 on the .pdf map).

Doug 7rxc.
OK, thanks.

Another article says the structure is on a hillside in a wooded area.

Curiously, it also states that they are searcing a 4100 area! I hope that is just a typical case of bad journalism, because it would certainly seem to be a tremendous waste of manpower to search that much area!

Quote

"We've got roughly 92 searchers out today and they're continuing their Type 1 and 2 searches throughout the 4100 acres," Sgt. Doty said.


I edited that post... added some GE coordinates..

As for the search area... 4100 acres isn't at all large... in search area terms.. It is on the ground, for sure...
about 6 square miles (2x3 for example)... of course it isn't a square area for real. When this started they were in a much larger search area. That is why information gathering is important... and why suggestions for searching has to be filtered as much as reasonable... the game is much like Geocaching... which is why lots of SAR people do Geocaching. It is great training. Especially those pesky puzzles and nanos in the woods..
Off hand, people are a lot easier to find in some cases. The whole event is aimed at steadily and quickly reducing the area to search. We read the cache page for information, SAR gathers info by several means.
We use a GPS to locate GZ, SAR sometimes can... both sometimes have to puzzle out the information and make educated 'guesses' (estimates) on the starting point. I have to run now, but I'll continue this...

I'll just say that (strong hint to readers) many Geocachers are what SAR teams want... people willing to help and learn what they need to.

Doug 7rxc

#49 User is offline   thecaswellfamily 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 03:51 PM

Any word on this today? Have they found him?

#50 User is offline   knowschad 

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 04:17 PM

View Postthecaswellfamily, on Nov 16 2010, 05:51 PM, said:

Any word on this today? Have they found him?
Not from what news I can find online.

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