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CavScout Earthcaches Archived?

#1 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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  Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:32 PM

I just got email notification that two of CavScout's Earthcaches in my area were archived. Looking at his list of owned ones, it seems they are all being archived. What gives? Anyone know why?

#2 User is offline   joranda 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:46 PM

Cav Scout,

The very long suspension you have earned from geocaching.com leaves the cache pages that you have submitted essentially without an owner. Unmaintained cache pages like these do not qualify for continued availability on our site. It will be necessary to archive them.

Groundspeak

This is the email that he forward to me. I have emailed Groundspeak to see if they will allow me to adopt them so that the caching community can keep enjoying them.

#3 User is offline   TerryDad2 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:56 PM

View Postjoranda, on Dec 5 2010, 07:46 PM, said:

Cav Scout,

The very long suspension you have earned from geocaching.com leaves the cache pages that you have submitted essentially without an owner. Unmaintained cache pages like these do not qualify for continued availability on our site. It will be necessary to archive them.

Groundspeak

This is the email that he forward to me. I have emailed Groundspeak to see if they will allow me to adopt them so that the caching community can keep enjoying them.

I was wondering the same thing.

I hope you are allowed to adopt them. Losing so many would be a significant loss to the EarthCache program.

Worst case, someone could copy each of his cache pages and resubmit them and adopt them back to him when he comes back. I would do it but I haven't been to any of his in the last month.

#4 User is offline   Manville Possum Hunters 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:26 PM

View PostTerryDad2, on Dec 5 2010, 06:56 PM, said:

View Postjoranda, on Dec 5 2010, 07:46 PM, said:

Cav Scout,

The very long suspension you have earned from geocaching.com leaves the cache pages that you have submitted essentially without an owner. Unmaintained cache pages like these do not qualify for continued availability on our site. It will be necessary to archive them.

Groundspeak

This is the email that he forward to me. I have emailed Groundspeak to see if they will allow me to adopt them so that the caching community can keep enjoying them.

I was wondering the same thing.

I hope you are allowed to adopt them. Losing so many would be a significant loss to the EarthCache program.

Worst case, someone could copy each of his cache pages and resubmit them and adopt them back to him when he comes back. I would do it but I haven't been to any of his in the last month.

I would be willing to adopt some of them in my area also, but I can see where this is headed. :laughing:
Only the CO can send out adoption requests for their listings, and all of Cav Scouts EC's will be archived before his account is unlocked. I'm quite sure that Cav Scout po'd the powers that be at Groundspeak, but we that enjoy EarthCaches are the ones to lose. :sad:

#5 User is offline   KKrew08 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:33 PM

CavScout's Earthcaches are the best. I've done several during my travels in various states. I think CavScout should have the right to determine who gets to adopts them (Joranda possibly) so the entire geocaching community isn't affected negatively by this action. These caches are all extremely educational and informative.

#6 User is offline   Manville Possum Hunters 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:12 PM

View PostKKrew08, on Dec 5 2010, 08:33 PM, said:

CavScout's Earthcaches are the best. I've done several during my travels in various states. I think CavScout should have the right to determine who gets to adopts them (Joranda possibly) so the entire geocaching community isn't affected negatively by this action. These caches are all extremely educational and informative.

I agree, but with Cav Scout being banned and his account locked, he has no say in the matter now. No one can adopt his listings. He is no longer a registered user on GC, and can not send out adoption requests. I love his EC's too, and attended a EC event that he hosted in Cumberland Gap last year. I know that at one time Geoaware could disable or archive a EC listing, but I am not sure what they can do now, as I understand that Groundspeak does things differently now, and GSA will not approve some types of caches anymore. Looks like we are the losers in this battle between Cav Scout and the PTB at GC.com. :laughing:

#7 User is offline   claystalker 

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  Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:47 AM

I'll help out anyway possible, if it be adopting or whatever. Let me know.

#8 User is offline   Indy-Md 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:04 AM

I'm not a frequent visitor of the forums (heck, the last time I logged in here was Sept 2009!), just not having time for such things (forums in general, that is). I noticed last night that one of CS' regular caches had gotten archived, and with no readily apparent reason. I've done a few of his regulars and a handful of his ECs, so I went to look at his profile this morning. Found all his caches had been archived.

I totally don't know what conflict or disagreement that has or is still going on between CS and Groundspeak. I've wondered about it, but thought it would resolve itself 'soon'. Guessing not now. :laughing:

If a movement is put into place to resurrect his caches (at least the ECs) (where resurrect = / = unarchive, but rather copy-write and resubmit new ECs in place of the old), I would be happy to volunteer to take on a couple (he has so many I never got to do, and as others have noted, it would be a shame to lose all of these). I've not created an EC yet, so not entirely sure of the processes involved (been on my list of things to do/learn), but I'm sure someone can walk me through some of the steps. :sad:

This post has been edited by Indy-Md: 06 December 2010 - 05:06 AM


#9 User is offline   Lostby7 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:44 AM

He must have really ticked someone off.

I understand why the caches needed to be archived though; there cannot be absentee EarthCache owners. The same thing will happen to a virtual which is not actively "maintained".

This is a very sad situation though.

#10 User is offline   Konnarock Kid & Marge 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:54 AM

View Postjoranda, on Dec 5 2010, 09:46 PM, said:

Cav Scout,

The very long suspension you have earned from geocaching.com leaves the cache pages that you have submitted essentially without an owner. Unmaintained cache pages like these do not qualify for continued availability on our site. It will be necessary to archive them.

Groundspeak

This is the email that he forward to me. I have emailed Groundspeak to see if they will allow me to adopt them so that the caching community can keep enjoying them.


It seems like the long (one year) ban was not enough for Cav Scout, but he and the rest of us need further punishment. I know as a fact that when the ban was put into place he requested the ability to "maintain" or adopt out his caches. He was told no on both accounts.
He cannot maintain something he cannot access and who denied him the access but those who have archived the EC! Go figure!
Look folks, no matter what you think of Cav Scout and I fully realize he has been controversial at times, he has contributed greatly to earthcaching and no one deserves this kind of double jeopardy. Personal feelings shouldn't enter the situations except maybe the personal feelings of the earthcaching community at large!
The ban was to be 'lifted' about two months from now so why did the Powers That Be wait so long for the massive archival process? What triggered the archives? It certainly wasn't part of the ban!
Bottom line: CS got a ban where he cannot maintain his ECs, then TEN months later his ECs are archived by those who banned him and refused his request to adopt and/or maintain the ECs.
I know politicians often, after the fact, refer to "unintended consequences". Did anyone think of them with this extreme action? What was the motivation? At the very least, WE were not a part of the equation.
It is a very sad state of affairs!
P.S. Geoaware or Groundspeak: if you will not unarchive them then please allow the ECs to be adopted out. I know that archived caches are not normally unarchived and adopted out, but yet again most caches are normally not archived after ten months after the owner is not allowed to maintain them
Thanks. :laughing:

#11 User is offline   Konnarock Kid & Marge 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:04 AM

View PostLostby7, on Dec 6 2010, 08:44 AM, said:

He must have really ticked someone off.

I understand why the caches needed to be archived though; there cannot be absentee EarthCache owners. The same thing will happen to a virtual which is not actively "maintained".

This is a very sad situation though.

I agree with your first statement but totally disagree with your generalization about absentee EC owners. How many ECs or Virtuals for that matter do you know have been archived after TEN months of non maintenance especially when the owner wasn't allowed the so-called maintenance?
I may be proved wrong and that wouldn't be the first time, but I dare say this situation doesn't fit the normal rules! :laughing:
P.S. An awful lot of us are absentee EC owners i.e. the lack of the applicable "vacation" rule! As much as I would like to, we don't get to the Bahamas very often! :sad:

This post has been edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge: 06 December 2010 - 06:07 AM


#12 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:12 AM

Well, while I agree with your general sentiment, I think it's only fair that we allow TPTB to explain their reasoning before we bring out the proverbial pitchforks. :laughing:

#13 User is offline   Konnarock Kid & Marge 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:15 AM

View PostTerryDad2, on Dec 5 2010, 09:56 PM, said:


I was wondering the same thing.

I hope you are allowed to adopt them. Losing so many would be a significant loss to the EarthCache program.

Worst case, someone could copy each of his cache pages and resubmit them and adopt them back to him when he comes back. I would do it but I haven't been to any of his in the last month.


"Worst case, someone could copy each of his cache pages and resubmit them and adopt them back to him when he comes back. I would do it but I haven't been to any of his in the last month."

We would volunteer to do the same thing if allowed. There has been too much blood, sweat and tears invested into the ECs to allow them to die!
Thanks for the suggestion! :laughing:

This post has been edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge: 06 December 2010 - 06:18 AM


#14 User is offline   KKrew08 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:28 AM

Recreating all of those Earthcaches would be a monumental task. The win win solution for the community would be to allow the community to adopt these caches. They would be maintained and still available to geocaching. As it stands now we all lose.

#15 User is offline   Lostby7 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:25 AM

View PostKonnarock Kid & Marge, on Dec 6 2010, 08:04 AM, said:

View PostLostby7, on Dec 6 2010, 08:44 AM, said:

He must have really ticked someone off.

I understand why the caches needed to be archived though; there cannot be absentee EarthCache owners. The same thing will happen to a virtual which is not actively "maintained".

This is a very sad situation though.

I agree with your first statement but totally disagree with your generalization about absentee EC owners. How many ECs or Virtuals for that matter do you know have been archived after TEN months of non maintenance especially when the owner wasn't allowed the so-called maintenance?
I may be proved wrong and that wouldn't be the first time, but I dare say this situation doesn't fit the normal rules! :laughing:
P.S. An awful lot of us are absentee EC owners i.e. the lack of the applicable "vacation" rule! As much as I would like to, we don't get to the Bahamas very often! :sad:

I'm not sure how long a (virt) cache must be unmaintained (nonresponsive to emails) to get archived, I only know it does happen. Virts have met this fate in the past and ECs are the same as virts in terms of maintenance needs. If one does not monitor the logs on verts then the logs all become suspect and armchair logs become problematic. Caches with fake logs get archived when those caches are discovered by the powers that be.

#16 User is offline   joranda 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:31 AM

View PostKKrew08, on Dec 6 2010, 06:28 AM, said:

Recreating all of those Earthcaches would be a monumental task. The win win solution for the community would be to allow the community to adopt these caches. They would be maintained and still available to geocaching. As it stands now we all lose.



As I stated before. I have spoke to my brother CavScout and he said that it was ok for me to adopt them but I would have to email Groundspeak to tell them that I would take them over until the two or so months that is left on the ban is up then I would let him have them back. He has already emailed me all the EC answers to the questions about each of them so there should be no problems there. I emailed them lastnight so now I wait for the fate of all these ECs. If they have the power to archive them then they should be able to put them all in my account to take care of. Wouldn't that be a win win for everyone without stirring the pot or shaking the boat? I just hope the right thing gets done here. I am sure there will be a big ordeal if the ECs are copied and pasted to be made new again and they probably will not allow most of them back.

#17 User is offline   joranda 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:39 AM

View PostLostby7, on Dec 6 2010, 07:25 AM, said:

View PostKonnarock Kid & Marge, on Dec 6 2010, 08:04 AM, said:

View PostLostby7, on Dec 6 2010, 08:44 AM, said:

He must have really ticked someone off.

I understand why the caches needed to be archived though; there cannot be absentee EarthCache owners. The same thing will happen to a virtual which is not actively "maintained".

This is a very sad situation though.

I agree with your first statement but totally disagree with your generalization about absentee EC owners. How many ECs or Virtuals for that matter do you know have been archived after TEN months of non maintenance especially when the owner wasn't allowed the so-called maintenance?
I may be proved wrong and that wouldn't be the first time, but I dare say this situation doesn't fit the normal rules! :laughing:
P.S. An awful lot of us are absentee EC owners i.e. the lack of the applicable "vacation" rule! As much as I would like to, we don't get to the Bahamas very often! B)

I'm not sure how long a (virt) cache must be unmaintained (nonresponsive to emails) to get archived, I only know it does happen. Virts have met this fate in the past and ECs are the same as virts in terms of maintenance needs. If one does not monitor the logs on verts then the logs all become suspect and armchair logs become problematic. Caches with fake logs get archived when those caches are discovered by the powers that be.



No one really knows how long a virtual is unmaintained since there is no log sheet that comes up missing. You just have to take the word on the person that they was really there. Alot of times you can goggle the answers to be able to log something like that and that goes with ECs too. That is some of the things that got my brother in trouble with the PTB is that he would question and delete finds that he did not think was real finds but armchair ones instead. So sometimes you better be careful on whos logs you delete cause they can be a friend of a friend. :sad: They need to get the rules right about really how much control a cache owner has over their caches cause I know that it is not always the same rule for all.

#18 User is offline   beejay&esskay 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:19 AM

If the ban is really going to expire in 2 months (instead of being extended), I really don't understand the "need" to archive these caches now.

At minimum, TPTB should allow the caches to be adopted out.

(Although I find some of the cache pages "prickly", when I had an actual case of a full camera at one of his Earthcaches, CavScout was quite gracious in accepting my description of the area as proof I was actually there.)

#19 User is offline   racer2814 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:31 AM

This is very upsetting. I had several trips planned to hit some of these great EC's next spring. I would also be willing to adopt quite a few that I have visited. Sad day for EarthCaching.

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:48 AM

I am sorry to see this happen. I hope that everything can be resolved in a positive manner. If it can't, I hope we can get some of these nice and educational Earthcaches back into the game soon.

This post has been edited by PaneledZero: 06 December 2010 - 10:41 AM


#21 User is offline   noto45 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:57 AM

I think the can be resolved by letting Joranda take care of them until he comes back. Groundspeak has to understand the importance of all the time and effort he has put into these caches. Not to mention what the geocaching community get out of them. Please Groundspeak do not let these great caches goto waste.

#22 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:21 AM

Groundspeak should really reconsider this decision. They did not punish just Cav Scout (whatever he did), but they punished us above all. Cav Scout and TerryDad2 have the best earthcaches (especially earthcache description) for really good education, I had the honor to visit. I think archiving caches of Cav Scout is really big loss to geocaching community. It is sad that Groundspeak had not realized it.

I would really like to see them back alive. So please, Groundspeak, let someone adopt them. I can adopt those ones I have already found, but thatīs not important. Whatīs important is to bring them back.

This post has been edited by k-lord: 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM


#23 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:24 AM

I agree that the loss of these caches is a great loss to the community, and I wish it didn't have to be. However, let's not jump to conclusions about Groundspeak's motivation. I think it only fair to allow TPTB to respond.

#24 User is offline   narcissa 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:25 AM

I was wondering if this would happen. It's upsetting to lose so many great Earthcaches, but this cache owner has actually stated in other forums that he would archive them himself if he could.

With a bit of Google searching you can find out the back story in his own words. Groundspeak seems to frown on extended discussions about this individual, so watch where you step.

#25 User is offline   narcissa 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:27 AM

The feedback thread about this issue got shut down pretty fast. I fully expect this thread to go next.

#26 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:54 AM

The only thing what can be done is to copy all his earthcache pages (with his permission) and publish it as new earthcaches. I think Joranda can do it if she wants (unless the adoption is allowed by GS). Good luck.

This post has been edited by k-lord: 06 December 2010 - 12:00 PM


#27 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:55 AM

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 01:54 PM, said:

The only thing what can be done is to copy all his earthcache pages (with his permission) and publish it as new earthcaches. I think Joranda can do it if he wants.


Fixed that for you. :)

#28 User is offline   Touchstone 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:02 PM

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 11:55 AM, said:

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 01:54 PM, said:

The only thing what can be done is to copy all his earthcache pages (with his the Land Managers permission) and publish it as new earthcaches. I think Joranda can do it if he wants.


Fixed that for you. :santa:


Double fixed it for ya :)

#29 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:04 PM

removed

This post has been edited by k-lord: 06 December 2010 - 05:07 PM


#30 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:07 PM

View PostTouchstone, on Dec 6 2010, 01:02 PM, said:

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 11:55 AM, said:

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 01:54 PM, said:

The only thing what can be done is to copy all his earthcache pages (with his the Land Managers permission) and publish it as new earthcaches. I think Joranda can do it if he wants.


Fixed that for you. :P


Double fixed it for ya :)


Sorry but it was not mistake "with his (Cav Scout) permission to copy his earthcache pages. The land manager has nothing to do with it. :santa:

But guys, this thread is not about my typos.

#31 User is offline   joranda 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:07 PM

View Postnarcissa, on Dec 6 2010, 11:25 AM, said:

I was wondering if this would happen. It's upsetting to lose so many great Earthcaches, but this cache owner has actually stated in other forums that he would archive them himself if he could.

With a bit of Google searching you can find out the back story in his own words. Groundspeak seems to frown on extended discussions about this individual, so watch where you step.



Yes you can read alot if you google but that is a two way street too. I see you found a site that he had posted that if he could that he would archive the caches himself but that was way back when he found out that he got banned, again and he was pretty POd. I think we all say a think or two when we are OPd that is why we are supposed to count to 10 and start again but one that day he might of counted by 5s so he got there quicker. If you google about the darkside of geocaching.com you will find something there too. It is always a he said she said but I do know him quite well, only for 44 years of my life and I know he has a deep lust for the earthcaching that he was doing, and really if you think about it, he was doing it for the cachers. They are the ones who go and find them. There is no paycheck in it for him for all the time a field looking for these wonders of the earth. Just the joy of building up the cache pages and submitting them.

As far as the PTB closing the thread down, I don't know why they would cause it is staying on topic. Why would they want to look bad for doing it.

#32 User is offline   Manville Possum Hunters 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:12 PM

View Postnarcissa, on Dec 6 2010, 11:27 AM, said:

The feedback thread about this issue got shut down pretty fast. I fully expect this thread to go next.

I agree, anytime we share our concerns with each other, and they disagree with TPTB, the thread gets locked. I missed the feedback thread, was it in the useless "How can we imporve geocaching forum"? :santa: If I can be of any help, contact me through our user account.
And just to let it be known, I think this was a let down to geocachers archiving those caches under these conditions. Sure, Cav Scout messed up, but we are the ones to suffer. Few people can develop EC's as interesting as Cav Scout, even if I do disagree with some of his EC's being PMO and his ALR photos. He is one of the best. :)

This post has been edited by Manville Possum Hunters: 06 December 2010 - 01:20 PM


#33 User is offline   narcissa 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:13 PM

View Postjoranda, on Dec 6 2010, 02:07 PM, said:

As far as the PTB closing the thread down, I don't know why they would cause it is staying on topic. Why would they want to look bad for doing it.


It seems to be a sensitive subject for them, and they won't discuss details about individual users for privacy reasons. They've quickly cracked down on previous threads about this user.

I think we should be careful to draw a line between what to do about the archivals, and chatting about why this user is banned.

As far as adoption is concerned, Groundspeak generally doesn't adopt caches from inactive owners, and they won't unarchive a cache in order to adopt it. Maybe they'll make an exception here... but I doubt it.

#34 User is offline   Touchstone 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:27 PM

Quote

It seems to be a sensitive subject for them, and they won't discuss details about individual users for privacy reasons. They've quickly cracked down on previous threads about this user.


I don't think it's sensitive at all. I agree with your statement regarding privacy however. It's written in the Terms of Use and they should be applauded for following it. Obviously, any kind of official statement from Groundspeak is going to appear self serving and in poor taste, given that the individual involved is incapable of responding.

#35 User is offline   Indotguy 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:44 PM

I don't see the big deal. If the archived locations are worthy of an Earthcache then let someone else re-submit.

#36 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:45 PM

View PostIndotguy, on Dec 6 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

I don't see the big deal. If the archived locations are worthy of an Earthcache then let someone else re-submit.


You do have a point. All one would have to do is go to Earthcache site that were archived and place one of your own, especially if you had found them already.

#37 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:08 PM

View Postnarcissa, on Dec 6 2010, 02:13 PM, said:

As far as adoption is concerned, Groundspeak generally doesn't adopt caches from inactive owners, and they won't unarchive a cache in order to adopt it. Maybe they'll make an exception here... but I doubt it.



But it is different between inactive (left this game) and inactive (banned, but still active). For Groundspeak it is not impossible to give Cav Scout some time to send adoption request to anyone and then they can ban him again - just to save all his earthcaches.

But we all know here, that the probability that GS will unarchive them is almost zero. They would not have archived them if they had not meant it. Now it is up to Cav Scout again what he wants to do with all earthcaches. To give permission to some of his geofriends to resubmit his cache pages or just do nothing. In my opinion anyone else who wants to re-submit earthcaches about "his" locations, should ask him first. It would be really nice to do that and not just steal his idea.

This post has been edited by k-lord: 06 December 2010 - 02:08 PM


#38 User is offline   narcissa 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:20 PM

View PostTouchstone, on Dec 6 2010, 02:27 PM, said:

Quote

It seems to be a sensitive subject for them, and they won't discuss details about individual users for privacy reasons. They've quickly cracked down on previous threads about this user.


I don't think it's sensitive at all. I agree with your statement regarding privacy however. It's written in the Terms of Use and they should be applauded for following it. Obviously, any kind of official statement from Groundspeak is going to appear self serving and in poor taste, given that the individual involved is incapable of responding.


They were sure quick on the trigger when k-lord posted about this in the feedback system.

#39 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:24 PM

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 04:08 PM, said:

In my opinion anyone else who wants to re-submit earthcaches about "his" locations, should ask him first. It would be really nice to do that and not just steal his idea.


I suppose one could do that if they were feeling exceptionally nice...but in the end, one really wouldn't have to. Just like any other cache you may find, if someone's cache at a location you are thrilled about all of a sudden is archived, that spot is open and free for the taking. Should someone copy the old page? No...at least do you own write up.

#40 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:40 PM

View Postnarcissa, on Dec 6 2010, 03:20 PM, said:

They were sure quick on the trigger when k-lord posted about this in the feedback system.


what do you mean? I posted it but then I realized that it is useless, so I deleted it.

#41 User is offline   Konnarock Kid & Marge 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:48 PM

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 02:24 PM, said:

I agree that the loss of these caches is a great loss to the community, and I wish it didn't have to be. However, let's not jump to conclusions about Groundspeak's motivation. I think it only fair to allow TPTB to respond.


Who is jumping to conclusions? Groundspeak's motivation? It has nothing to do with the issue and I fully expect, they (Groundspeak) will never reveal their motivation. The question is not only why, but much more important is why do it to all of us? If TPTB are in the process of an outright total ban of CS, which we truly believe isn't deserved, then don't sink all of that work and destroy those ECs! Let someone adopt them......please.

#42 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:55 PM

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

I suppose one could do that if they were feeling exceptionally nice...but in the end, one really wouldn't have to. Just like any other cache you may find, if someone's cache at a location you are thrilled about all of a sudden is archived, that spot is open and free for the taking. Should someone copy the old page? No...at least do you own write up.


I really donīt think so because it is mostly about finding of location for earthcache. He had to visit all places for his earthcaches and revealed them to geocaching community. Sorry, but how many of you would know about this places without his earthcaches there? And now someone will publish it without even being in that state or USA at all? Of course, it is not illegal or against geo-guidelines, you can start resubmitting all of his earthcaches now, but for me it is just stealing his ideas.

#43 User is offline   Konnarock Kid & Marge 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:10 PM

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 05:55 PM, said:

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

I suppose one could do that if they were feeling exceptionally nice...but in the end, one really wouldn't have to. Just like any other cache you may find, if someone's cache at a location you are thrilled about all of a sudden is archived, that spot is open and free for the taking. Should someone copy the old page? No...at least do you own write up.


I really donīt think so because it is mostly about finding of location for earthcache. He had to visit all places for his earthcaches and revealed them to geocaching community. Sorry, but how many of you would know about this places without his earthcaches there? And now someone will publish it without even being in that state or USA at all? Of course, it is not illegal or against geo-guidelines, you can start resubmitting all of his earthcaches now, but for me it is just stealing his ideas.

Excellent points k-lord!
Beside how many of us want or much less see the need to go from Alaska to Kentucky, rewrite the cache pages and resubmit them for publication? It's already been done! We are not a bunch of vultures just circling waiting for new ground to open up so we can add notches to our earthcaching belt. Opinion: CS has contributed more to earthcaching than any of the rest of us. Yes, he often rocked the boat, but give credit where credit is due! :)

#44 User is offline   Indy-Md 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:00 PM

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 02:55 PM, said:

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

I suppose one could do that if they were feeling exceptionally nice...but in the end, one really wouldn't have to. Just like any other cache you may find, if someone's cache at a location you are thrilled about all of a sudden is archived, that spot is open and free for the taking. Should someone copy the old page? No...at least do you own write up.


I really donīt think so because it is mostly about finding of location for earthcache. He had to visit all places for his earthcaches and revealed them to geocaching community. Sorry, but how many of you would know about this places without his earthcaches there? And now someone will publish it without even being in that state or USA at all? Of course, it is not illegal or against geo-guidelines, you can start resubmitting all of his earthcaches now, but for me it is just stealing his ideas.


If I were to re-do any of his ECs, I would only redo the ones I had already visited (and that has only been half a dozen or so), since those are the only ones I have any intimate knowledge on (it would be very hard for someone to just cut-paste his work and resubmit if they have not already visited and have the answers to his questions, or even be able to ask new questions). My motivation would be so the work that CS put together would not be wholly lost to the archive void, and that cachers can still go to those places to check them out.

#45 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:04 PM

View PostIndy-Md, on Dec 6 2010, 06:00 PM, said:

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 02:55 PM, said:

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

I suppose one could do that if they were feeling exceptionally nice...but in the end, one really wouldn't have to. Just like any other cache you may find, if someone's cache at a location you are thrilled about all of a sudden is archived, that spot is open and free for the taking. Should someone copy the old page? No...at least do you own write up.


I really donīt think so because it is mostly about finding of location for earthcache. He had to visit all places for his earthcaches and revealed them to geocaching community. Sorry, but how many of you would know about this places without his earthcaches there? And now someone will publish it without even being in that state or USA at all? Of course, it is not illegal or against geo-guidelines, you can start resubmitting all of his earthcaches now, but for me it is just stealing his ideas.


If I were to re-do any of his ECs, I would only redo the ones I had already visited (and that has only been half a dozen or so), since those are the only ones I have any intimate knowledge on (it would be very hard for someone to just cut-paste his work and resubmit if they have not already visited and have the answers to his questions, or even be able to ask new questions). My motivation would be so the work that CS put together would not be wholly lost to the archive void, and that cachers can still go to those places to check them out.


My point exactly. I am not implying that everyone just scoop up listings...just possibly the ones you've visited or had prior knowledge of so they can keep going.

#46 User is offline   Arthur & Trillian 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:10 PM

View PostKonnarock Kid & Marge, on Dec 6 2010, 04:48 PM, said:

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 02:24 PM, said:

I agree that the loss of these caches is a great loss to the community, and I wish it didn't have to be. However, let's not jump to conclusions about Groundspeak's motivation. I think it only fair to allow TPTB to respond.


Who is jumping to conclusions? Groundspeak's motivation? It has nothing to do with the issue and I fully expect, they (Groundspeak) will never reveal their motivation. The question is not only why, but much more important is why do it to all of us? If TPTB are in the process of an outright total ban of CS, which we truly believe isn't deserved, then don't sink all of that work and destroy those ECs! Let someone adopt them......please.


You act as if no one will ever go to those spots again unless those EC's are adopted out. What's stopping you from visiting that site and tooling one up on your own so people can still visit?

From reading all the opinions back and forth on the subject, I would totally support Groundspeak not adopting any caches out. The Earth and its features were here long before Cavvy came about, and I am quite sure they'll be visited again and maybe...just maybe...another EC placed there.

#47 User is offline   Manville Possum Hunters 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:33 PM

View PostKonnarock Kid & Marge, on Dec 6 2010, 03:10 PM, said:

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 05:55 PM, said:

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

I suppose one could do that if they were feeling exceptionally nice...but in the end, one really wouldn't have to. Just like any other cache you may find, if someone's cache at a location you are thrilled about all of a sudden is archived, that spot is open and free for the taking. Should someone copy the old page? No...at least do you own write up.


I really donīt think so because it is mostly about finding of location for earthcache. He had to visit all places for his earthcaches and revealed them to geocaching community. Sorry, but how many of you would know about this places without his earthcaches there? And now someone will publish it without even being in that state or USA at all? Of course, it is not illegal or against geo-guidelines, you can start resubmitting all of his earthcaches now, but for me it is just stealing his ideas.

Excellent points k-lord!
Beside how many of us want or much less see the need to go from Alaska to Kentucky, rewrite the cache pages and resubmit them for publication? It's already been done! We are not a bunch of vultures just circling waiting for new ground to open up so we can add notches to our earthcaching belt. Opinion: CS has contributed more to earthcaching than any of the rest of us. Yes, he often rocked the boat, but give credit where credit is due! :santa:

k-lord does make excellant points, so do you you KK. I'll just put it up front here, I am also a Waymarker, EarthCaches make great Waymarks. Cav Scouts EC's in Cumberland Gap that were archived, are listed waymarks on the Waymarking site. I don't have the education to develop an EC like the ones that Cav Scout develops, but I can be a total fraud and copy and paste. I visit the area often, and have geocaches at the local State Park in Virginia, and waymarks in the area, it would be no problem for me to contact the land manager at Cumberland Gap National Park to ask approval for an EC, as these are the ONLY type geocache allowed in the Park, at least until Virtual Caches are reinstated, as they are going to be soon. KK, we logged one of your EC's last week, and I think it would make a great waymark too, there is another one across the road at the Cox House already. I started to waymark the site, but when I got to doing research, it's like as k-lord says it feels like "stealing" or something, because we all have a similar discription of something in our listings, whether it be an EC, traditional, waymark, or virtual at the same site.
Many of Cav Scouts caches can NOT be recreated. White Nose Syndrome in Bats seems to be an issue in ALL EC's that envolve caves, and some of the listings are in effected areas. This is an issue that Cav Scout pointed out back at the Gap event he hosted before it became aware to the general public. He is very educated, and has the opprtinuty to travel to many places. As I have posted before, I don't agree with some of Cav Scout's BS with PMO EC's and his ALR requirements, but it seems that he has been treated unjustly by TBTB, unless he has been banned from the site forever, never to be reinstated.
GroundSpeaks policy is fair, whether you have found 1 cache or 1000, hosted events, PM or basic, or what you have muggled or contributed to the sport, they still don't care! :)

This post has been edited by Manville Possum Hunters: 06 December 2010 - 11:40 PM


#48 User is offline   k-lord team 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:35 PM

View PostIndy-Md, on Dec 6 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

If I were to re-do any of his ECs, I would only redo the ones I had already visited (and that has only been half a dozen or so), since those are the only ones I have any intimate knowledge on (it would be very hard for someone to just cut-paste his work and resubmit if they have not already visited and have the answers to his questions, or even be able to ask new questions). My motivation would be so the work that CS put together would not be wholly lost to the archive void, and that cachers can still go to those places to check them out.


I agree these ECs should not be lost! Some days other ECs will be published there, but publishing this cache right now will look like vulture waiting for his prey. Is it really so difficult to contact him and ask him for permission? What if he wants them to stay in family, to be published by Joranda? I think no one should hurry up to resubmit them. If yes, he/she is then exactly like the vulture.

Moreover, someone posted that his ban should expire within 2 months or so. He can ask reviewer to unarchive them after 2 months, it is quite normal request and reviewer should not have any problem with that unless there is "new" (old CSīs) earthcache.

This post has been edited by k-lord: 06 December 2010 - 04:43 PM


#49 User is offline   joranda 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:55 PM

View PostManville Possum Hunters, on Dec 6 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

View PostKonnarock Kid & Marge, on Dec 6 2010, 03:10 PM, said:

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 05:55 PM, said:

View PostArthur & Trillian, on Dec 6 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

I suppose one could do that if they were feeling exceptionally nice...but in the end, one really wouldn't have to. Just like any other cache you may find, if someone's cache at a location you are thrilled about all of a sudden is archived, that spot is open and free for the taking. Should someone copy the old page? No...at least do you own write up.


I really donīt think so because it is mostly about finding of location for earthcache. He had to visit all places for his earthcaches and revealed them to geocaching community. Sorry, but how many of you would know about this places without his earthcaches there? And now someone will publish it without even being in that state or USA at all? Of course, it is not illegal or against geo-guidelines, you can start resubmitting all of his earthcaches now, but for me it is just stealing his ideas.

Excellent points k-lord!
Beside how many of us want or much less see the need to go from Alaska to Kentucky, rewrite the cache pages and resubmit them for publication? It's already been done! We are not a bunch of vultures just circling waiting for new ground to open up so we can add notches to our earthcaching belt. Opinion: CS has contributed more to earthcaching than any of the rest of us. Yes, he often rocked the boat, but give credit where credit is due! :santa:

k-lord does make excellant points, so do you you KK. I'll just put it up front here, I am also a Waymarker, EarthCaches make great Waymarks. Cav Scouts EC's in Cumberland Gap that were archived, are listed waymarks on the Waymarking site. I don't have the education to develop an EC like the ones that Cav Scout develops, but I can be a total fraud and copy and paste. I visit the area often, and have geocaches at the local State Park in Virginia, and waymarks in the area, it would be no problem for me to contact the land manager at Cumberland Gap National Park to ask approval for an EC, as these are the ONLY type geocache allowed in the Park, at least until Virtual Caches are reinstated, as they are going to be soon. KK, we logged one of your EC's last week, and I think it would make a great waymark too, there is another one across the road at the Cox House already. I started to waymark the site, but when I got to doing research, it's like as k-lord says it feels like "stealing" or something, because we all have a similar discription of something in our listings, whether it be an EC, traditional, waymark, or virtual at the same site.
Many of Cav Scouts caches can NOT be recreated. White Nose Syndrome in Bats seems to be an issue in ALL EC's that envolve caves, and some of the listings are in effected areas. This is an issue that Cav Scout pointed out back at the Gap event he hosted before it became aware to the general public. He is very educated, and has the opprtinuty to travel to many places. As I have posted before, I don't agree with some of Cav Scout's BS with PMO EC's and his ALR requirements, but it seems that he has been treated unjustly by TBTB, unless he has been banned from the site forever, never to be reinstated.
GroundSpeaks policy is fair, whether you have found 1 cache or 1000, hosted events, or what you have muggled or contributed to the sport, we still don't care! :)



I am sure if you email him you will get his support to copy and past the earthcache to make it up to par. As far as his ALR requirements, he did that because of armchair bandits. He called me today and told me to check out this cacher that had started to log his ECs and reg caches today that are archived. This guy for Missouri cached in Kentucky then the next day found his reg cache by my house then was caching again in Kentucky then a couple other places. By the way, his name is not signed on the log. Go figure. That is when he always wanted a photo of the person next to the EC. Makes sense. I take my photo at the ECs that I visit. But that is how I play and we are all different. We all forget that this is just a game. :P

#50 User is offline   joranda 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:59 PM

View Postk-lord, on Dec 6 2010, 04:35 PM, said:

View PostIndy-Md, on Dec 6 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

If I were to re-do any of his ECs, I would only redo the ones I had already visited (and that has only been half a dozen or so), since those are the only ones I have any intimate knowledge on (it would be very hard for someone to just cut-paste his work and resubmit if they have not already visited and have the answers to his questions, or even be able to ask new questions). My motivation would be so the work that CS put together would not be wholly lost to the archive void, and that cachers can still go to those places to check them out.


I agree these ECs should not be lost! Some days other ECs will be published there, but publishing this cache right now will look like vulture waiting for his prey. Is it really so difficult to contact him and ask him for permission? What if he wants them to stay in family, to be published by Joranda? I think no one should hurry up to resubmit them. If yes, he/she is then exactly like the vulture.

Moreover, someone posted that his ban should expire within 2 months or so. He can ask reviewer to unarchive them after 2 months, it is quite normal request and reviewer should not have any problem with that unless there is "new" (old CSīs) earthcache.



If you look at the profile, Joranda is a guy. :) Oh wait, that is me. And no I am not a vulture, he asked me if I would be willing to take over the ECs until the ban is up. I wish geoaware will chime in to say if he would support that idea. I have noticed that this is a heavy veiw topic right now.

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