[IrishFlyFisher]

Why is the concept of private property so difficult for some cache hiders to grasp. I once took some friends on a cache hunt that turned out to be in a fence behind an office supply store. Someone was urinating in the corner of the lot next to a dumpster. How's that for an introduction to geocaching! What is scenic or historic about that? I was told that a shopping center parking lot is the same as a park-n-ride lot. Not true! A shopping center parking lot is private property whereas a park-n-ride lot is state property. Because a store and its parking area is open to the public does not mean that it is public property!

There are plenty of scenic, historic and interesting public places for caches without resorting to private property for cache hides! If this type of activity continues, how long do you think geocaching will last before it becomes banned?

[briansnat]

Unfortunately it has continued for almost 10 years and shows no signs of stopping.

[Mr.Yuck]

IrishFlyFisher, on 04 September 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

Why is the concept of private property so difficult for some cache hiders to grasp. I once took some friends on a cache hunt that turned out to be in a fence behind an office supply store. Someone was urinating in the corner of the lot next to a dumpster. How's that for an introduction to geocaching! What is scenic or historic about that? I was told that a shopping center parking lot is the same as a park-n-ride lot. Not true! A shopping center parking lot is private property whereas a park-n-ride lot is state property. Because a store and its parking area is open to the public does not mean that it is public property!

There are plenty of scenic, historic and interesting public places for caches without resorting to private property for cache hides! If this type of activity continues, how long do you think geocaching will last before it becomes banned?

I hear you. Really. I pre-date "parking lot caching", at least in my area, by almost 2 years. When they started showing up, I ignored them, and do to this day. Will Geocaching ever become banned because of them? Probably not. I do believe that one day they will tighten the reins, and require proof of permission for them. And when they do, I'm going to have that quote locked and loaded in CTRL V on my computer, just like Mr. T has Jeremy Irish's recent statement about the definition of a find locked and loaded.

[Clan Riffster]

I'm guessing there have been caches in parking lots for at least 10 years or so. Since that's only a wee bit longer than the game has been in existance, perhaps they are less of a threat than some would think? Groundspeak has already demonstrated that they are only willing to pay lip service to private property owner's rights, by creating a guideline that the Reviewers don't enforce, specifically;

1.1. Fundamental Placement Guidelines

Obtain the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property. ... If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of the reviewer and those seeking the cache.

Something I like to do is go to events and talk to other geocachers, asking them questions about their hides. To date, I haven't found a single owner of a parking lot hide who acquired explicit permission for said hide. I know I've seen folks post in these forums that they did get explicit permission for this or that hide, but from a local perspective, doing so certainly seems to be the exception, not the rule, which seems a bit backward to me.

This post has been edited by Clan Riffster: 04 September 2011 - 05:30 AM

[briansnat]

Mr.Yuck, on 04 September 2011 - 05:10 AM, said:

IrishFlyFisher, on 04 September 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

Why is the concept of private property so difficult for some cache hiders to grasp. I once took some friends on a cache hunt that turned out to be in a fence behind an office supply store. Someone was urinating in the corner of the lot next to a dumpster. How's that for an introduction to geocaching! What is scenic or historic about that? I was told that a shopping center parking lot is the same as a park-n-ride lot. Not true! A shopping center parking lot is private property whereas a park-n-ride lot is state property. Because a store and its parking area is open to the public does not mean that it is public property!

There are plenty of scenic, historic and interesting public places for caches without resorting to private property for cache hides! If this type of activity continues, how long do you think geocaching will last before it becomes banned?

I hear you. Really. I pre-date "parking lot caching", at least in my area, by almost 2 years. When they started showing up, I ignored them, and do to this day. Will Geocaching ever become banned because of them? Probably not. I do believe that one day they will tighten the reins, and require proof of permission for them. And when they do, I'm going to have that quote locked and loaded in CTRL V on my computer, just like Mr. T has Jeremy Irish's recent statement about the definition of a find locked and loaded.

I think that what is more likely to happen is that the big box chains where so many of these are located will get wind of them and demand they be removed and no more be place. The way Cracker Barrel did.

This post has been edited by briansnat: 04 September 2011 - 05:41 AM

[Chokecherry]

Clan Riffster, on 04 September 2011 - 05:29 AM, said:

I'm guessing there have been caches in parking lots for at least 10 years or so. Since that's only a wee bit longer than the game has been in existance, perhaps they are less of a threat than some would think? Groundspeak has already demonstrated that they are only willing to pay lip service to private property owner's rights, by creating a guideline that the Reviewers don't enforce, specifically;

1.1. Fundamental Placement Guidelines

Obtain the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property. ... If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of the reviewer and those seeking the cache.

Something I like to do is go to events and talk to other geocachers, asking them questions about their hides. To date, I haven't found a single owner of a parking lot hide who acquired explicit permission for said hide. I know I've seen folks post in these forums that they did get explicit permission for this or that hide, but from a local perspective, doing so certainly seems to be the exception, not the rule, which seems a bit backward to me.

I feel like I'm the only ever to get permission for hides even on public property. I did it last summer but because of a pending highway move I didn't hide any caches in my intended spots. And this summer I've been working on getting permission for another city to place caches on the city owned property. and it's actually gone very well. I haven't really found any private property in the area just screaming for a cache to be placed so that hasn't come up.

I just think it's the right thing to do.

[Mr.Yuck]

Clan Riffster, on 04 September 2011 - 05:29 AM, said:

I'm guessing there have been caches in parking lots for at least 10 years or so. Since that's only a wee bit longer than the game has been in existance, perhaps they are less of a threat than some would think? Groundspeak has already demonstrated that they are only willing to pay lip service to private property owner's rights, by creating a guideline that the Reviewers don't enforce, specifically;

1.1. Fundamental Placement Guidelines

Obtain the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property. ... If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of the reviewer and those seeking the cache.

Something I like to do is go to events and talk to other geocachers, asking them questions about their hides. To date, I haven't found a single owner of a parking lot hide who acquired explicit permission for said hide. I know I've seen folks post in these forums that they did get explicit permission for this or that hide, but from a local perspective, doing so certainly seems to be the exception, not the rule, which seems a bit backward to me.

I don't think you meant to say there were caches in parking lots before the game existed? Well, we may never know who invented the parking lot micro, but we do know they became deeply rooted in Nashville by 2003!!

I do see the occasional parking lot cache that mentions permission on the cache page, and reviewer Keystone has often commented we'd "be surprised" how many submissions he gets that mention permission. But who we kidding here, I'll guess 98% of the parking lot caches no permission. Heck, I even see ones that blatantly admit it, with statements on the page such as "use extreme stealth so the employees don't see you". I know they are published under the assumption of permission policy, but how do you get away with that one?

[StephRoman]

I once tried to find a cache on someone's tiny front lawn, it was part of a row-home. I gave up because I felt like I was intruding, because the coords are typically 30-feet off but the front lawns were only about 10 feet wide each, so we were possibly going through other people's lawns. It was just terrible.

Recently, my fiance and I were looking for another cache where we had to look under a small deck 1-foot off the road. I didn't enjoy that, either, because there was trash and beer cans stacked all around. I just feel sleazy if anyone finds me because it looks like we're looting through trash or something!

[Walts Hunting]

If you don't like those kinds of caches don't go to them and for sure don't take friends.

[tozainamboku]

I'd wager a fair number of parking log hides get permission. It's not hard to talk to a store owner or manager. Of course experience has taught me that this isn't always the case and I would not be surprised if most parking lot hides were hidden without permission. No doubt that many geocachers view them like park-n-ride lots and believe that if you are allowed to be there then you are allowed to hide a cache there.

It's also not uncommon for caches to be hidden back by dumpster where you might come across somebody urinating. Cache hiders try to hide caches away from where muggles will find them and many strip malls and big box store have these areas in the back where nobody goes and these seem like "good" places to hide a cache. I often worry that someone will be looking for one of my hiking caches and will comment that they came across someone urinating for the very same reason.

It's pretty easy to avoid these caches by doing a little up front investigation. You generally can tell from Google maps if the cache is in a park or if is is behind the Wal*Mart. True that sometimes a cache gets hidden in a brand new superstore parking lot that Google maps still shows as woods. If the GPS still takes you to the dumpster section of the parking lot, you can always just push "find next cache" and skip this one.

[sduck]

Mr.Yuck, on 04 September 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Well, we may never know who invented the parking lot micro, but we do know they became deeply rooted in Nashville by 2003!!

I'm calling bogus on this one - I did a lot of caching in Nashville in 2003, and only recall finding one or maybe 2 lpc's in 2003. I don't think the infamous cache run that got people all in a snit about lpc's at geowoodstock II happened in 2003 - wasn't it 2004? Anyway, my point is that if you're going to make denigrating posts about a large, diverse caching area like Nashville, get the facts right. Details are details, even if they are mean-spirited.

[OldLog]

The type of cache one prefers or hates does not matter. You get to pick and choose. If they bother you in anyway feel free to ignore them.

[Mr.Yuck]

sduck, on 05 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

Mr.Yuck, on 04 September 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Well, we may never know who invented the parking lot micro, but we do know they became deeply rooted in Nashville by 2003!!

I'm calling bogus on this one - I did a lot of caching in Nashville in 2003, and only recall finding one or maybe 2 lpc's in 2003. I don't think the infamous cache run that got people all in a snit about lpc's at geowoodstock II happened in 2003 - wasn't it 2004? Anyway, my point is that if you're going to make denigrating posts about a large, diverse caching area like Nashville, get the facts right. Details are details, even if they are mean-spirited.

Oh c'mon, that wasn't mean-spirited! OK, so push it back a year, and I don't look so silly saying parking lot micros didn't appear in my area until 2005. Although we did have an "off your rocker" placed a couple of days before Christmas 2004. I know the cache owner, and surprise, it was placed without permission on one of their washing machine thingy's on the porch .

[TheGeoZodiac]

It's up to cache reviewers to demand a cache be moved if there is any doubt whatsoever about it being on private property. I know for a fact that the COs sweet talk their reviewers into thinking it is NOT private property, when in fact, it is. All the reviewer knows is what he sees on the Google map he/she pulls up when examining the coordinates. I think if it's even CLOSE on the map, they need to demand it be moved just in case, even if the CO disagrees.

[jeffbouldin]

Mr.Yuck, on 05 September 2011 - 07:53 PM, said:

sduck, on 05 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

Mr.Yuck, on 04 September 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Well, we may never know who invented the parking lot micro, but we do know they became deeply rooted in Nashville by 2003!!

I'm calling bogus on this one - I did a lot of caching in Nashville in 2003, and only recall finding one or maybe 2 lpc's in 2003. I don't think the infamous cache run that got people all in a snit about lpc's at geowoodstock II happened in 2003 - wasn't it 2004? Anyway, my point is that if you're going to make denigrating posts about a large, diverse caching area like Nashville, get the facts right. Details are details, even if they are mean-spirited.

Oh c'mon, that wasn't mean-spirited! OK, so push it back a year, and I don't look so silly saying parking lot micros didn't appear in my area until 2005. Although we did have an "off your rocker" placed a couple of days before Christmas 2004. I know the cache owner, and surprise, it was placed without permission on one of their washing machine thingy's on the porch .

I wondered about your assertion also and asked about it on our local Middle Tennessee Geocachers Club Forums I got the following reply from a local who has been in the game since April of 2003. He has been very involved in our community from that time on and has been friends with many of the ones in our area who helped evolve the game as we know it. He has hides from LPcs to 5\5s and extremly hard puzzles. This is his take on your assertion.

Quote

They did not start in Nashville, but we did have more than most places, of course we also had several more non-parking lot caches than most places as well. Nashville has had a large and vibrant community since the early days with lots of variety, because we had lots of caches, we became a destination for many people. Unfortunately many of them chose to only hunt the quick and easy ones while bypassing the more involved and often more interesting ones. So it is true that for the casual traveler who came here to run up their numbers, Nashville appeared to be full of parking lot caches and lpc's. Of course, by 2003, Joe had already begun the Mojo series and there were several very challenging caches in place that these same folks skipped over. When GWII was here in '04, Joe placed some higher rated challenging caches around the site just to see if people would try them. For the most part the high difficulty or terrain caches that were placed near the lpc's got skipped. There was even a famous blow-up caused by a St. Louis area cacher who lambasted "Cacheville" for the easy caches and micro's that were ruining the game, of course, he was one of the one's who signed on to find 100 caches in a day and who also skipped several challenging caches near his hotel in order to hunt easy caches and up his numbers. I was here for all of that and I can say without a doubt that Nashville's reputation for lots of easy caches was deserved, but that was far from the whole story and the members of our community knew just how blessed we were, because when we traveled to other areas we still found a mix of good and bad caches, just like at home, only there were far fewer caches to hunt. Nashville's greater numbers made it easier for you to choose what sort of caching experience you got to enjoy, it was easy to skip the lpc's if you chose because there were lots of great caches to hunt or you could just hunt them all and find your pleasure in the hunt.

To answer your other question, the first skirtlifter in Nashville was Undercover, by Southpaw, which is still active. If you look at the early logs you will see that it was considered quite a difficult hide, at the time. He imported the idea from Huntsville where he, JoGPS and Robertlipe first saw it. On the subject, while skirtlifters did not originate here, you will see that there were several cache hiding styles that are now considered "standard practice" which did originate here, such as the fake bolt at the original Geo-Mojo, my own Pack a Lunch cache or the magnetic sheet at Super Sonic Stealth, to name a couple. Although, those are not considered to be particularly evil by today's standards, they were incredibly innovative at the time and spawned lots and lots of copies around the country.

[annejilli]

One of the local caches I went to had a "Keep Out" Sign posted. You have to go past the sign to access the cache. Nothing is said on the cache page about permission to go on the site. I took pictures of the cache site, and the sign. I posted it to my log. I felt like a grinch doing it.

[BBWolf+3Pigs]

annejilli, on 06 September 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

One of the local caches I went to had a "Keep Out" Sign posted. You have to go past the sign to access the cache. Nothing is said on the cache page about permission to go on the site. I took pictures of the cache site, and the sign. I posted it to my log. I felt like a grinch doing it.

If it was posted, why did you continue on to look for it?

I've been to several caches like this. I stop looking, take pictures and send them off to the local reviewer. He usually contacts the owner and temporarily disables the cache until things are sorted out (permission could have been granted just not mentioned on the listing). However, on every one, the cache eventually got archived because of the private property issue and no permission.

No need to feel like a grinch.

[annejilli]

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

annejilli, on 06 September 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

One of the local caches I went to had a "Keep Out" Sign posted. You have to go past the sign to access the cache. Nothing is said on the cache page about permission to go on the site. I took pictures of the cache site, and the sign. I posted it to my log. I felt like a grinch doing it.

If it was posted, why did you continue on to look for it?

I've been to several caches like this. I stop looking, take pictures and send them off to the local reviewer. He usually contacts the owner and temporarily disables the cache until things are sorted out (permission could have been granted just not mentioned on the listing). However, on every one, the cache eventually got archived because of the private property issue and no permission.

No need to feel like a grinch.

I went back to ask permission, they were gone. Maybe I will go back and ask them if it was alright that I trespassed a little.

[BBWolf+3Pigs]

annejilli, on 07 September 2011 - 07:41 AM, said:

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

annejilli, on 06 September 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

One of the local caches I went to had a "Keep Out" Sign posted. You have to go past the sign to access the cache. Nothing is said on the cache page about permission to go on the site. I took pictures of the cache site, and the sign. I posted it to my log. I felt like a grinch doing it.

If it was posted, why did you continue on to look for it?

I've been to several caches like this. I stop looking, take pictures and send them off to the local reviewer. He usually contacts the owner and temporarily disables the cache until things are sorted out (permission could have been granted just not mentioned on the listing). However, on every one, the cache eventually got archived because of the private property issue and no permission.

No need to feel like a grinch.

I went back to ask permission, they were gone. Maybe I will go back and ask them if it was alright that I trespassed a little.

Brilliant.

What I especially like was your title for the photo of the sign: "Just ignore it folks". So you are encouraging people to trespass. Brilliant.

I also find amazing the fact that over 50 pepole found the cache, and not one of them mentioned the "KEEP OUT" sign (up until the last 2 or 3). Why are people so afraid to point out a problem cache?

[annejilli]

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

annejilli, on 07 September 2011 - 07:41 AM, said:

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

annejilli, on 06 September 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

One of the local caches I went to had a "Keep Out" Sign posted. You have to go past the sign to access the cache. Nothing is said on the cache page about permission to go on the site. I took pictures of the cache site, and the sign. I posted it to my log. I felt like a grinch doing it.

If it was posted, why did you continue on to look for it?

I've been to several caches like this. I stop looking, take pictures and send them off to the local reviewer. He usually contacts the owner and temporarily disables the cache until things are sorted out (permission could have been granted just not mentioned on the listing). However, on every one, the cache eventually got archived because of the private property issue and no permission.

No need to feel like a grinch.

I went back to ask permission, they were gone. Maybe I will go back and ask them if it was alright that I trespassed a little.

Brilliant.

What I especially like was your title for the photo of the sign: "Just ignore it folks". So you are encouraging people to trespass. Brilliant.

I also find amazing the fact that over 50 pepole found the cache, and not one of them mentioned the "KEEP OUT" sign (up until the last 2 or 3). Why are people so afraid to point out a problem cache?

I guess people didn't understand my sarcasm. I was thinking about all those previous people that walked past that sign when I posted that picture. When I called the establishment to tell them that I did go on their property to look for a cache, they didn't even realize they had the signs up. I erased the caption.

[bflentje]

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

I also find amazing the fact that over 50 pepole found the cache, and not one of them mentioned the "KEEP OUT" sign (up until the last 2 or 3). Why are people so afraid to point out a problem cache?

Perhaps the sign is brand new, the result of all of the geocaching traffic? Hello.

[MisterEFQ]

bflentje, on 07 September 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

I also find amazing the fact that over 50 pepole found the cache, and not one of them mentioned the "KEEP OUT" sign (up until the last 2 or 3). Why are people so afraid to point out a problem cache?

Perhaps the sign is brand new, the result of all of the geocaching traffic? Hello.

Thats the oldest brand new sign ive ever seen.

[Mr.Yuck]

annejilli, on 07 September 2011 - 08:37 AM, said:

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

annejilli, on 07 September 2011 - 07:41 AM, said:

BBWolf+3Pigs, on 07 September 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

annejilli, on 06 September 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

One of the local caches I went to had a "Keep Out" Sign posted. You have to go past the sign to access the cache. Nothing is said on the cache page about permission to go on the site. I took pictures of the cache site, and the sign. I posted it to my log. I felt like a grinch doing it.

If it was posted, why did you continue on to look for it?

I've been to several caches like this. I stop looking, take pictures and send them off to the local reviewer. He usually contacts the owner and temporarily disables the cache until things are sorted out (permission could have been granted just not mentioned on the listing). However, on every one, the cache eventually got archived because of the private property issue and no permission.

No need to feel like a grinch.

I went back to ask permission, they were gone. Maybe I will go back and ask them if it was alright that I trespassed a little.

Brilliant.

What I especially like was your title for the photo of the sign: "Just ignore it folks". So you are encouraging people to trespass. Brilliant.

I also find amazing the fact that over 50 pepole found the cache, and not one of them mentioned the "KEEP OUT" sign (up until the last 2 or 3). Why are people so afraid to point out a problem cache?

I guess people didn't understand my sarcasm. I was thinking about all those previous people that walked past that sign when I posted that picture. When I called the establishment to tell them that I did go on their property to look for a cache, they didn't even realize they had the signs up. I erased the caption.

Did they know about the cache, and what do they think about it?

I would have tended to ignore a micro with a 5 word cache page and never showed up there anyways, myself.

[Ambrosia]

Clan Riffster, on 04 September 2011 - 05:29 AM, said:

I'm guessing there have been caches in parking lots for at least 10 years or so. Since that's only a wee bit longer than the game has been in existance, perhaps they are less of a threat than some would think? Groundspeak has already demonstrated that they are only willing to pay lip service to private property owner's rights, by creating a guideline that the Reviewers don't enforce, specifically;

1.1. Fundamental Placement Guidelines

Obtain the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property. ... If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of the reviewer and those seeking the cache.

Something I like to do is go to events and talk to other geocachers, asking them questions about their hides. To date, I haven't found a single owner of a parking lot hide who acquired explicit permission for said hide. I know I've seen folks post in these forums that they did get explicit permission for this or that hide, but from a local perspective, doing so certainly seems to be the exception, not the rule, which seems a bit backward to me.

I guess I technically have a parking lot hide. I was actually approached and asked to place it there, so I have permission.