[ITSecGal]

I've recently started geocaching and have found that I really enjoy the hobby. The only issue that I've encountered that has caused me to question whether or not it is something that I want to continue is what appears to be caches that are placed without any form of property owner permission. If these were just out in some woods that are part of a state park I would not be as concerned. What I have found, and have corresponded with a CO about, are caches that are placed near play grounds, private company property, school grounds, parking garages, neighborhood entrances, etc. One cache I located was within a subdivision between what the county considers "common private property" owned by the Homeowner's association and a private residence. When I first approached the site I was not too concerned as the the rules for a cache to be posted at this site require that a CO validate that the property owner's permission was obatined prior to placing the cache. After looking for the microcache I realized the GZ was located around utility boxes for the neighborhood. At that point I started to become more concerned due to the area being in close proximity to a private residence and it did not seem the type of area that a Homeowner's association would allow a cache to be placed....maintained landscaping and utility boxes so I left the site.

Later that evening I sent an email to the CO to confirm that he had received owner authorization to place the cache and he stated that he had not as he thought it was "public property". I replied back that based on my recent experience with the county regarding maintenance of a similar type of area in our neighborhood that it was not county property. The CO replied back that if I was concerned I should not go back to the cache. As the CO validated that he had not received owner permission, and I thought there was a chance that the police may be called by local property owners if they noticed a stranger in that area, I then posted a note on the cache page stating that the CO had confirmed that property owner permission had not been obtained and that the cache was in close proximitiy to a private residence. The CO then deleted the note from the cache log without comment.

What I would like to know is how the geocaching community utilizing this site recommends this type of situation be handled? What should a geocacher do when it appears a cache listed at the geocaching.com site has been placed without permission in an area where it is likely that local residents/property owners will call police if they see someone they do not recognize in the area of the cache site? I've viewed a couple of logs where police have approached a geocacher who was looking for two different caches in our county.

This post has been edited by ITSecGal: 05 April 2012 - 03:26 PM

[Max and 99]

I've been told "NO CACHES" by a private property owner, but someone else placed a cache there (they didn't ask permission), and GC has allowed it to stay. Go figure!

If I'm caching and see that the location is not something I feel comfortable with (especially anything near private residences), I leave.

[StarBrand]

I encourage you to walk away from any cache you are not comfortable looking for.

If you are absolutely certain that a cache is placed without permission and the land manager is upset with it, feel free to place a 'NA' Needs Archived log type on it for a reviewer to give a second look at. Include as much detail as is necessary. Does not mean that it will be archived but a reviewer will be alerted to it.

[kunarion]

You may look at the cache page for specifics about permission, before you visit the cache.

Some caches are monitored by local police, especially in areas that are known hangouts. So if a family pulls over and starts looking around in one of those areas, that would draw attention. It may be a public area that's otherwise fine for Geocaching, but if a police officer arrives to ask what's going on, tell him you're Geocachers and show him the info if you brought it. He may tell you that it's a spot they monitor. He's there for your own safety. It would be a good thing to mention in your cache log, and if it's a concern, avoid cache areas where the cops tend to show up.

[Isonzo Karst]

Quote

I then posted a note on the cache page stating that the CO had confirmed that property owner permission had not been obtained and that the cache was in close proximitiy to a private residence. The CO then deleted the note from the cache log without comment.

The log you should have used for this is Needs Archived log, not a note. A Needs Archived log will be forwarded to an area reviewer, it doesn't matter whether the cache owner deletes it or not.

[macatac1961]

StarBrand, on 05 April 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I encourage you to walk away from any cache you are not comfortable looking for.

There is a hider near me who just don't seem to understand the private property issue. Even posting parking coords in the businesses parking lots. I e-mailed once and posted it on a few cache pages but it's apparently not a concern for some people. I'd take StarBrands advice and move on to the next cache and ignore this persons caches.

[AustinMN]

StarBrand, on 05 April 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

If you are absolutely certain that a cache is placed without permission and the land manager is upset with it, feel free to place a 'NA' Needs Archived log type on it for a reviewer to give a second look at. Include as much detail as is necessary. Does not mean that it will be archived but a reviewer will be alerted to it.

+1. Whether this cache stays or goes should not be at the sole discretion of the CO.

Austin

[briansnat]

Common areas on homeowners assn property are usually not meant for the general public. I'd probably publish a NA on this, or at least send the reviewer an email giving him a heads up.

[ITSecGal]

I appreciate the responses from everyone who replied to my questions. From reading the responses there appears to be two lines of thought....one is to ignore the fact that the cache is on private/government/school property and just make a decision for yourself on whether or not you want to search for the cache based on the location.

The other recommendation I've seen is to publish a "NA" on the cache so the reviewer will take action on the site. Since there is very little control on the geocaching.com web site to confirm that CO's have received property owner or site management permission it seems that geocachers are using the information posted at this site "at their own risk" and may be questioned by police and be escorted off a property as they may be trespassing on private property when attempting to reach a cache site. It would seem that at a minimum geocachers should be posting a "NA" notice on the cache if there is a question of whether or not owner/site management permission was obtained. It would be nice to know about any issues with cache sites before making the trip out to the site location.

One note....I think the number of caches placed without owner permission that are posted at the geocaching.com web site would be reduced if the COs were required to provide the name and contact information of the property owner/site manager who provided permission as part of the cache registration process with the information being validated by the reviewer before the cache is approved for posting to the site.

This post has been edited by ITSecGal: 06 April 2012 - 01:03 PM

[Harry Dolphin]

ITSecGal, on 06 April 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I appreciate the responses from everyone who replied to my questions. From reading the responses there appears to be two lines of thought....one is to ignore the fact that the cache is on private/government/school property and just make a decision for yourself on whether or not you want to search for the cache based on the location.

The other recommendation I've seen is to publish a "NA" on the cache so the reviewer will take action on the site. Since there is very little control on the geocaching.com web site to confirm that CO's have received property owner or site management permission it seems that geocachers are using the information posted at this site "at their own risk" and may be questioned by police and be escorted off a property as they may be trespassing on private property when attempting to reach a cache site. It would seem that at a minimum geocachers should be posting a "NA" notice on the cache if there is a question of whether or not owner/site management permission was obtained. It would be nice to know about any issues with cache sites before making the trip out to the site location.

One note....I think the number of caches placed without owner permission that are posted at the geocaching.com web site would be reduced if the COs were required to provide the name and contact information of the property owner/site manager who provided permission as part of the cache registration process with the information being validated by the reviewer before the cache is approved for posting to the site.

And sometimes you will even get questioned by police/park polce/neighbors when explicit permission was received.
If COs were required to supply name and contact info: Yes that would decrease the number of caches list here. Probably by 90%.
If you are uncomfortable searching the area, don't hunt for the cache. Seems simple.

[briansnat]

Quote

Since there is very little control on the geocaching.com web site to confirm that CO's have received property owner or site management permission it seems that geocachers are using the information posted at this site "at their own risk" and may be questioned by police and be escorted off a property as they may be trespassing on private property when attempting to reach a cache site.

Most of the time I can tell if I belong there or not. No trespassing signs are a dead giveaway. In the case of malls, office parks, parking garages it's obvious that the cache is on private property. Unless there is a mention on the cache page of specific permission, I pass on those.

Quote

One note....I think the number of caches placed without owner permission that are posted at the geocaching.com web site would be reduced if the COs were required to provide the name and contact information of the property owner/site manager who provided permission as part of the cache registration process with the information being validated by the reviewer before the cache is approved for posting to the site.

True, but what do you do where there is no permission required? Say the entity has no problem with geocaching but doesn't want to, or doesn't have the resources to deal with requests for permission. Many park systems are in this boat. For example NY's DEC says geocaches are OK with them as long as the cache owner follows a few simple rules, but they have no permission process in place because they don't think it is necessary.

Also requiring a reviewer to verify permission would seriously bog down the review process. Caches could go weeks awaiting publication while the reviewer tries to get in touch with the person who provided permission. Never mind that it would make the review process for each cache considerably longer. A reviewer can handle a few hundred caches a week and it takes about 3-10 minutes each. Requiring that they verify contacts could double or triple the time each review takes. I doubt the volunteers would welcome working an extra 8-20 hours a week.

This post has been edited by briansnat: 07 April 2012 - 05:53 AM

[J the Goat]

I agree with the NA log in this instance. The good thing here is the email exchange between the CO and the OP. With the CO admitting through the GC email feature that there was no permission granted, TPTB will have access to that info.

This sounds like it's a place that has no business with a cache. I skip caches all the time that I don't want to search for based on it's location, that's not a good excuse for permission issues.

[ITSecGal]

Quote

True, but what do you do where there is no permission required? Say the entity has no problem with geocaching but doesn't want to, or doesn't have the resources to deal with requests for permission. Many park systems are in this boat. For example NY's DEC says geocaches are OK with them as long as the cache owner follows a few simple rules, but they have no permission process in place because they don't think it is necessary.

Interesting point and I believe that if published guidance is provided by the land manager, such as has been done by the NY DEC at the following link, and you are in compliance with the published guidance then you have met the requirement for "obtain owner's permission". I did note that the NY DEC requirements vary based on which state park (or other managed area) the cache is being placed in so it looks like NY DEC provides general guidance and then each suborganization provides additional guidance, many of which require a permit/written permission prior to placement of a cache.


https://wiki.Grounds...StateDECgeneral


I now see the reason for for the geocaching.com site disclaimer and for the statement that CO's assurance of obtaining owner/land manager approval before placing of cache is required before cache is posted to the site. This transfers the legal responsiblity (along with other risk factors) to the individual visiting a cache site along with the CO and reviewer. Keeping that in mind I will definitely review all of the potentital risks involved before approaching a cache site, to include trespassing.