[VeeRich]

So I hid a cache in a local park. It is not the easiest find so I was pretty excited to see how the local cachers would handle the challenge. After a few days someone finally logged a FTF. Then 2 others logged DNFs and one logged that "even with a hint supplied to me I couldn't find it". So, I'm assuming the person who posted that looked for the cache before, couldn't find it, then messaged the FTF person for a hint, then came back to look for it and THEN logged a DNF.

I was a little upset that the person couldn't find it in the first place and didn't log a DNF and then secondly got a hint from someone else. I'm wondering why they didn't message me or post the DNF saying they needed a hint or something. I'm trying to keep this hide a challenge and I want the cachers to have to look for a little while or use their minds to figure it out. I have a hint in my back pocket that isn't a complete spoiler that I am willing to give out but I didn't want to post it on the cache page.

So basically I'm just wondering how you feel about others giving out hints on your hides?

[J the Goat]

I don't really like it, but there's nothing you can do to stop it. You can specifically ask on the cache page that no hints be given and leave the rest up to the honesty level of your local cachers, but depending on what that is, it may or may not make a difference.

Often when hints are passed on, it's not intended to offend. The cachers may be friends and just visiting when it comes up, I've had that happen. Just put something in the description and hope for the best.

[StarBrand]

I wish folks would turn to the cache owners for any hints but many areas have complex and well used phone a friend (PAF) networks. Can't stop them. As many have said before - you are only cheating yourself.

I won't call folks for hints. I do not participate in PAFs.

In my experience most all the PAFs are not looking for a hint but rather a direct pointer to the cache location.

This post has been edited by StarBrand: 08 April 2012 - 07:40 AM

[J the Goat]

StarBrand, on 08 April 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

I wish folks would turn to the cache owners for any hints but many areas have complex and well used phone a friend (PAF) networks. Can't stop them. As many have said before - you are only cheating yourself.

I won't call folks for hints. I do not participate in PAFs.

In my experience most all the PAFs are not looking for a hint but rather a direct pointer to the cache location.

I'll use a PAF on occasion, but I'll only call the CO or whoever is the keeper of the cache (we have a pretty prolific hider near here who passed a few years ago, and while GS won't adopt his caches out, they are well maintained by one or two people) but I can't remember ever calling somebody other than that for a hint on a cache.

[Mom-n-Andy]

When I hide a cache I want people to get out, find a new area that maybe they've never been to, maybe take a nice walk, and find my caches. If they are having trouble finding the cache they are welcome to call me or a previous finder.

Speaking for myself, I like to seek out puzzle caches or other unusual caches in nearby towns. if I drive more than an hour and can't find a cache after looking for 30 minutes, I'd have no problem calling anyone I could since it would probably be a while before I'd get to that area again.

As long as people are having fun and not damaging caches or hides (which can happen if someone tears apart an area because they can't find the cache), who cares?

[kunarion]

Mom-n-Andy, on 08 April 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

As long as people are having fun and not damaging caches or hides (which can happen if someone tears apart an area because they can't find the cache), who cares?

I enjoy just looking around and puzzling-out the location, and some cache spots are fun to visit, and I've been mulling over a couple of caches for months. Overlay that thought with a group I once tagged along with. We'd arrive at a spot, they'd whip out the phone, make a beeline for the container, everyone signs. But they sign QUICK, because everyone's back in the car and heading for the next cache RIGHT NOW. People are having fun, caches and hides aren't damaged. I didn't have time to do anything but sign and leave. Who cares?

[kunarion]

VeeRich, on 08 April 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I'm just wondering how you feel about others giving out hints on your hides?

Are they correct? One of my hides is across a massive patch of thorn bushes, and people mentioned in logs how tough that was. They don't have to go that way (I said so in the cache description for what it's worth), and I'm kinda hoping other cachers don't get a PAF to tell them to take the thorn route.

[IkeHurley13]

I think proper etiquette is asking the owner first. For some this is too time consuming (for example they are on a streak and need a find for that day and time is running out). Sometimes the owner is rude or non-responsive. I prefer people contacting me. I'm easy to reach and want my caches found. Plus I can get good feedback on the condition while on the phone.

[Mom-n-Andy]

kunarion, on 08 April 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Mom-n-Andy, on 08 April 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

As long as people are having fun and not damaging caches or hides (which can happen if someone tears apart an area because they can't find the cache), who cares?

I enjoy just looking around and puzzling-out the location, and some cache spots are fun to visit, and I've been mulling over a couple of caches for months. Overlay that thought with a group I once tagged along with. We'd arrive at a spot, they'd whip out the phone, make a beeline for the container, everyone signs. But they sign QUICK, because everyone's back in the car and heading for the next cache RIGHT NOW. People are having fun, caches and hides aren't damaged. I didn't have time to do anything but sign and leave. Who cares?

If that is how they want to play, why would I let that bother me? Life is just too short to get your knickers all bunched up over things you can't control.

[addisonbr]

StarBrand, on 08 April 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

In my experience most all the PAFs are not looking for a hint but rather a direct pointer to the cache location.

That's been my experience as well.

[jellis]

You can always put in the cache page "email me for a hint"

[Rainbow Spirit]

I have a paf list if I am in need of a hint at a cache. I can't see what is wrong with not having to return home and contacting the CO, then waste more time and fuel going back to GZ. As some have said does it really matter how we find caches?

I am happy to see people finding my caches by whatever way seems OK with them. I try to make interesting caches, not ones that no one can find. In the end we all play by our own rules. I don't want to be a cache dictator.

[daysjourney]

Circumstances are important as well. If the cache description tells you that you're looking for a black nano and the difficulty is 1.5. GZ is a black park bench, with nothing else nearby. Don't know about you but I'm not going to spend much more than 10 minutes on it. Your choices are to contact the cache owner, who you don't know, (probably by email since most CO's don't list their phone # on the cache page) or call a friend who has already found it, who are you gonna contact? I not looking for a free handout. But I don't want to spend a half hour looking for a container that is probably gone either.

[DanOCan]

VeeRich, on 08 April 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

So basically I'm just wondering how you feel about others giving out hints on your hides?

I couldn't care less.

I figure people will find caches in a manner that is fun for them. If they find fun in agonizing over a tricky hide for an hour or more then let them. If they want to PAF and get a complete spoiler so they can sign and move on, that's fine too.

As a cache owner, how does it affect me in any way?

[bflentje]

J the Goat, on 08 April 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

I don't really like it, but there's nothing you can do to stop it. You can specifically ask on the cache page that no hints be given and leave the rest up to the honesty level of your local cachers, but depending on what that is, it may or may not make a difference.

Often when hints are passed on, it's not intended to offend. The cachers may be friends and just visiting when it comes up, I've had that happen. Just put something in the description and hope for the best.

EXACTLY what he said. Both from the finding and hiding perspective.

[ras_oscar]

I have only asked for a hint once. The cache page mentioned that if a DNF were posted, the CO would provide a hint in response to a PM request. I posted my DNF, requested my hint and received nothing. Now I don't ask for hints, Either from COs or prior finders. Although I have been sorely tempted once or twice. To me if I can't find it myself I don't deserve the smiley.

This post has been edited by ras_oscar: 10 April 2012 - 04:06 AM

[lamoracke]

Reality check.

At least in my area, Geocaching is a huge social game. There is a big network of phone #s out there and I would consider most of the folks who have been around a while do it, at least the ones I know. Folks ask for help on puzzles and especially on cache hides. Most folks try to find them first on their own but how long they wait to email or call for help varies of course. Sure folks will ask the CO for help but often times not especially if they do not know that CO (or even if they do). There is nothing against the rules asking for friends's help and it happens all the time. If one person does not want to participate, that is fine, but for the folks out there who hate when other folks give help on their hides or puzzles, they are being unrealistic with the reality out there. What's the harm, its how you play the game and how you enjoy it.

[daysjourney]

Honestly, I never knew there was any controversy regarding PAF'ing someone. Its just something you do after an exhaustive search. Not really cheating, just nudging, I'd say.
Oh, by the way Lam - your log for Saturday's CITO was hilarious. And the most truthful...

[briansnat]

I think it should be up the the CO as to how much of a hint he wants given out, if any. So the CO should be contacted if someone wants a hint.

[Ambrosia]

I'm conflicted about the situation. Personally, I don't care on my hides, because I don't make them difficult and I want people to find them.

I had an uncomfortable situation recently. I am a very honest person, so I will usually say in my find logs if I got help from someone to make a find. I mentioned in a log for a well known cache that I had some help from a friend, and then I received an email from a complete stranger asking me for a hint. That made me feel uncomfortable and it felt slightly over the line, but I couldn't really complain, because I had admitted to getting help. But that feels a bit different to me, because I was helped by a friend when we were just talking in general. So I hesitated writing back to this cacher, because I didn't know how to handle it. Then I waited so long I never contacted them and now I feel rude.

[The_Incredibles_]

PAF is common. I haven't thought about it too much, usually my caches are easy to find. However if someone is having a hard time, they are welcome to PAF. It's their game.

I think the only time I"d be annoyed is for a puzzle cache if many were sharing the final coordinates outright. Most people around here do make an effort though, to solve the puzzle before getting help.

[unabowler]

I don't think I'd use a PAF system but I can see where people might like it. I'm new enough at this, been doing it about 4 months. I'd estimate that I find 60% of the caches I look for. I have gone back more than once to look for some, and sometimes I've found them the second time around, sometimes not. I have plenty of DNFs in places I can't get back to easily so I might never get them. I'm getting a little smarter about how caches are hidden but I still log a lot of DNFs for caches which I'm guessing might not really be that hard to find. But I figure that's part of the game. I'm really enjoying geocaching for many reasons, and having smileys for all the ones I didn't find wouldn't get me anything.

[unabowler]

To answer the OP's question, as a CO it would not bother me if someone gave hints to my cache. I have one hide, and I deliberately made it difficult in a certain sense. There was good FTF stuff and I didn't want someone to get it too easily. Now that that stuff is gone, I don't care how people find their way to it.

[rosebud55112]

I'd say direct them to the CO. I don't like the PAF idea, it seems like an attempt to change the cache experience that the CO intends. In that way, it's different only in scale from hiding the cache in a manner different from how you find it. If you wouldn't rehide a cache to make it easier for future searchers, why would you tell future finders where to look?

[Ambrosia]

Our local cachers are a fairly tight knit group. We call each other and the owners for help fairly often when we need it.

I was doing a loop hike the other day, and dnf'd the first cache. When I got to the second one, I was having issues with it as well, and called up the owner because she is my MIL. She got me squared away, I was just having one of those days.

I told her about my earlier dnf, and she gave me some hints that made me realize I had looked in the correct area and had an idea what I was looking for. But even so, at the end of the loop I tried to find it again.

When I logged my dnf, the owner wrote to me and asked me why I hadn't just called him from the cache site. I had forgotten that he had given me his number at the last event. I felt pretty silly.

[firestronaut]

I've only hidden one cache, and if my hint doesn't give away its location, PAF wont.
I placed a nice easy one so I can learn how to properly maintain it.

Saying that, if someone did PAF on that cache, I wouldn't really mind.
It's there to be found, right?
People play the game differently.
I'm limited in my hunts for caches due to health issues and a toddler in tow, if I was already out and about, I would call a friend who's found that cache before

[BC & MsKitty]

I don't mind if someone else gives a hint or not ... after all, if they asked me, I'd give them one too!

I DO agree with the CO about not logging the DNF, though ...but that's for a different thread.

[tozainamboku]

briansnat, on 09 April 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I think it should be up the the CO as to how much of a hint he wants given out, if any. So the CO should be contacted if someone wants a hint.

I think people should do what people naturally do when they want help. They ask people whom they know and who are willing to help them. I will never understand this attitude that the owner of cache has some right to control what information is shared about their cache. The owner can decide what information to put on the cache cache page and even has some ability to encrypt or delete logs that they feel are spoilers. This ability does not extend to friends discussing a cache or even to someone posting a video on YouTube that shows the cache.

I don't even agree with the limited censorship in the Groundspeak TOUs prohibiting spoilers without the owner's consent on Groundspeak websites. Cache owners need to accept the natural tendency of geocachers to talk about caches and share information. While some people enjoy the satisfaction of finding a cache without extra hints or spoilers, for others the sharing of information makes the game far less frustrating. Owners who insist that they have some right to control this information come across as being controlling and even mildly sadistic, gaining enjoyment over reducing people to posting DNFs and come begging to them for assistance.

[AZcachemeister]

I think I am sorta in with Toz on this one.
Sure, the owner can state: Email me for a hint if needed.

BUT, I'm on a cross-country trip and I just happen to know (and have the phone number) of a previous finder.

Should I call my friend, or hope the CO will answer my eMail in less than three days?

I know what I would do.

[4wheelin_fool]

The natural tendency is for cachers to ask anyone else other than the owner for help from what I've seen.

[BlueDeuce]

Nothing like getting the 4/5-D/T out of the way so you can claim that challenge cache.

[TeamTwoStar]

I don't ask for a hint right away. If I spend more than two times looking for it, I will email the owner first. However, I don't think asing for hints is wrong. Sometimes people just need a little help on the cache. Everyone has a DNF every once in a while and needs a little extra help. Sometimes people can find a 4 dif. rated cache in a minute, sometimes they will spend an hour on a 1 or 2 dif. rated cache. It all depends. Besides Geocaching is not just a fun game, it is community too. Getting help from your community is the natural thing to do right?

[BlueDeuce]

When I hear, isn't this supposed to be fun, so what's the big deal, I see lack of effort, compromise, but mainly lame excuses.



be

This post has been edited by BlueDeuce: 09 April 2012 - 09:27 PM

[NYPaddleCacher]

TeamTwoStar, on 09 April 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I don't ask for a hint right away. If I spend more than two times looking for it, I will email the owner first. However, I don't think asing for hints is wrong. Sometimes people just need a little help on the cache. Everyone has a DNF every once in a while and needs a little extra help. Sometimes people can find a 4 dif. rated cache in a minute, sometimes they will spend an hour on a 1 or 2 dif. rated cache. It all depends. Besides Geocaching is not just a fun game, it is community too. Getting help from your community is the natural thing to do right?

Perhaps, but the cache owner is part of the community too. In fact, one could argue the cache owner is the most important part of the community because, after all, we would not have caches to find without others hiding them. As a cache owner myself, I don't mind if others give out hints on my caches. However, I don't own any that are especially difficult. IMHO, a 4 diff. (even a 3+) is *supposed* to be hard to find. I could imagine that if a cache owner spent time constructing a cache with the intent that it be a challenge (perhaps a many stage multi) for those that attempted to find it, and then rated it accordingly, and others started freely giving out hints and even outright spoilers, the CO might start getting a little ticked. If I were that CO I'd start to wonder what the point was for having higher difficulty ratings if others were just going to circumvent my intention of creating a 4 star diff. cache by sharing the final location. I might even decide that rather than just toss another easy find out there so others can pad their stats I would stop hiding caches entirely. It other cache owners felt the same way we'd end up with fewer caches to be found and fewer that presented a challenge to those that don't *want* every cache to be easy.

[rosebud55112]

NYPaddleCacher, on 10 April 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

TeamTwoStar, on 09 April 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I don't ask for a hint right away. If I spend more than two times looking for it, I will email the owner first. However, I don't think asing for hints is wrong. Sometimes people just need a little help on the cache. Everyone has a DNF every once in a while and needs a little extra help. Sometimes people can find a 4 dif. rated cache in a minute, sometimes they will spend an hour on a 1 or 2 dif. rated cache. It all depends. Besides Geocaching is not just a fun game, it is community too. Getting help from your community is the natural thing to do right?

Perhaps, but the cache owner is part of the community too. In fact, one could argue the cache owner is the most important part of the community because, after all, we would not have caches to find without others hiding them. As a cache owner myself, I don't mind if others give out hints on my caches. However, I don't own any that are especially difficult. IMHO, a 4 diff. (even a 3+) is *supposed* to be hard to find. I could imagine that if a cache owner spent time constructing a cache with the intent that it be a challenge (perhaps a many stage multi) for those that attempted to find it, and then rated it accordingly, and others started freely giving out hints and even outright spoilers, the CO might start getting a little ticked. If I were that CO I'd start to wonder what the point was for having higher difficulty ratings if others were just going to circumvent my intention of creating a 4 star diff. cache by sharing the final location. I might even decide that rather than just toss another easy find out there so others can pad their stats I would stop hiding caches entirely. It other cache owners felt the same way we'd end up with fewer caches to be found and fewer that presented a challenge to those that don't *want* every cache to be easy.

Wonderful response.

This post has been edited by rosebud55112: 10 April 2012 - 04:16 AM

[OZ2CPU]

>You can always put in the cache page "email me for a hint"

why not give the hint on the page then ?
you like people to drive for hrs, not find it, email you, wait for other hrs and then go seek it ?
or simply DNF or many dont even care to log a DNF, and forget all about it, all you did was waster their time
and yours making the cache.

I am on a few private hint lists, and I do get calls from people about caches I did not create
but I found it, so they say, now we ripped up the entire forrerst and we still seriously dont find it,
we dont have a phone number to the CO and cant waster any more time here,
will you please care to point us to the right direction ?
SURE I will, if I can remember the cache, I be happy to save their day,
next time it may be me.

I other words : cachers will damage and tear apart the area if a cache is hard to find !
they will show up 24hr a day and bring big powerfull flashlights at night, driving people nuts who live near the cache !
so you as CO should think very carefull about what kind of hide or bad/missing hint you create,
A few days ago I was on a FTF hunt, someone put a cache in their own fence where they live,
the cache was released very late, an older person who walked a dog did not dare to get back to her own home !!
since we where now many people with light pointing in all sorts of directions trying to find the darn thing before the others.
we saw MANY people waken up and looking out the windows.
if the hint or rating or position would have been good, we could have found it in 10 sec with no lights at all,
but the CO maybe likes to drive his nabours nuts ?
I tried to contract the CO and inform him about what I think of a hide like this,
he only changed the wrong position.
(maybe he like to move soon)

This post has been edited by OZ2CPU: 10 April 2012 - 04:43 AM

[BBWolf+3Pigs]

OZ2CPU, on 10 April 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

A few days ago I was on a FTF hunt, someone put a cache in their own fence where they live,
the cache was released very late, an older person who walked a dog did not dare to get back to her own home !!
since we where now many people with light pointing in all sorts of directions trying to find the darn thing before the others.
we saw MANY people waken up and looking out the windows.
if the hint or rating or position would have been good, we could have found it in 10 sec with no lights at all,
but the CO maybe likes to drive his nabours nuts ?
I tried to contract the CO and inform him about what I think of a hide like this,
he only changed the wrong position.
(maybe he like to move soon)

So you disregarded common sense and the consideration of other people (the neighbors) and had several people running around the neighborhood late at night with flashlights, waking them up and annoying them, all for a FTF!?! That's not the cacher owner's problem...that's yours.

I would have called the police if that was going on in my neighborhood.

[rosebud55112]

OZ2CPU, on 10 April 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

>You can always put in the cache page "email me for a hint"

why not give the hint on the page then ?
you like people to drive for hrs, not find it, email you, wait for other hrs and then go seek it ?
or simply DNF or many dont even care to log a DNF, and forget all about it, all you did was waster their time
and yours making the cache.

I am on a few private hint lists, and I do get calls from people about caches I did not create
but I found it, so they say, now we ripped up the entire forrerst and we still seriously dont find it,
we dont have a phone number to the CO and cant waster any more time here,
will you please care to point us to the right direction ?
SURE I will, if I can remember the cache, I be happy to save their day,
next time it may be me.

I other words : cachers will damage and tear apart the area if a cache is hard to find !
they will show up 24hr a day and bring big powerfull flashlights at night, driving people nuts who live near the cache !
so you as CO should think very carefull about what kind of hide or bad/missing hint you create,
A few days ago I was on a FTF hunt, someone put a cache in their own fence where they live,
the cache was released very late, an older person who walked a dog did not dare to get back to her own home !!
since we where now many people with light pointing in all sorts of directions trying to find the darn thing before the others.
we saw MANY people waken up and looking out the windows.
if the hint or rating or position would have been good, we could have found it in 10 sec with no lights at all,
but the CO maybe likes to drive his nabours nuts ?
I tried to contract the CO and inform him about what I think of a hide like this,
he only changed the wrong position.
(maybe he like to move soon)

If someone calls me and says they've torn up the area looking for someone else's cache, I wouldn't be rewarding them with the location of the cache, I'd be telling them that they are poor representatives of the caching community and that maybe they'll find the cache as they restore the location.

Or should we start leaving caches out in the open from now on so people won't rip everything apart in their desire to get a smiley for finding a cache that takes more skill than they have?

[OZ2CPU]

>Or should we start leaving caches out in the open from now on so people won't rip everything apart
>in their desire to get a smiley for finding a cache that takes more skill than they have?

or give a good hint, if you dont like the damage and ripping it all apart as I see performed all too often..
yes I am sorry to brake the news, look arround out there and you will see what kind of damage geocachers make
when a CO gets a bit smart and creative.

[knowschad]

OZ2CPU, on 10 April 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

>You can always put in the cache page "email me for a hint"
why not give the hint on the page then ?

I agreed with you up to this point, although it really doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand. You lost me on the rest, though.

[briansnat]

AZcachemeister, on 09 April 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I think I am sorta in with Toz on this one.
Sure, the owner can state: Email me for a hint if needed.

BUT, I'm on a cross-country trip and I just happen to know (and have the phone number) of a previous finder.

Should I call my friend, or hope the CO will answer my eMail in less than three days?

I know what I would do.

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place. If you can't find it, you can't find it. That said, when owners spend the time, money and effort to hide challenging caches for the enjoyment of the community I think the polite and right thing to do is let them determine how much of a hint they want given out.

Without cache owners there wouldn't be much of a game here, so I think their wishes should be given consideration.

[Mr.Benchmark]

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place. If you can't find it, you can't find it.

1. On a cache that is clearly not intended to be very challenging, particularly in a situation where a return trip is impractical, I can see how someone would phone a friend. If nothing else, confirmation that it is indeed likely absent followed by a DNF/NM if you then can't find it is probably not wildly inappropriate.
2. For a difficult cache - you want the bragging rights. (Or at least you want to pretend to have them...)
3. You want to solve a particular cache because it fulfills some prequisite for some other cache or challenge you are attempting.

However, I'm not a very sophisticated cacher - so I just log a plain ol' DNF...

[StarBrand]

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

AZcachemeister, on 09 April 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I think I am sorta in with Toz on this one.
Sure, the owner can state: Email me for a hint if needed.

BUT, I'm on a cross-country trip and I just happen to know (and have the phone number) of a previous finder.

Should I call my friend, or hope the CO will answer my eMail in less than three days?

I know what I would do.

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place. .....

That is the part that really confuses me as well - maybe somebody can explain it to me. Just why does the cache have to be found??? - no matter if you are travelling, spending gas, already in the area etc etc whatever.... If you looked and didn't find it - log a DNF and move on with life. Why MUST you find it while you are nearby?

[briansnat]

Mr.Benchmark, on 10 April 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place. If you can't find it, you can't find it.

1. On a cache that is clearly not intended to be very challenging, particularly in a situation where a return trip is impractical, I can see how someone would phone a friend. If nothing else, confirmation that it is indeed likely absent followed by a DNF/NM if you then can't find it is probably not wildly inappropriate.
2. For a difficult cache - you want the bragging rights. (Or at least you want to pretend to have them...)
3. You want to solve a particular cache because it fulfills some prequisite for some other cache or challenge you are attempting.

However, I'm not a very sophisticated cacher - so I just log a plain ol' DNF...

1. Log a DNF and move on. I still don't get why it must be found, coming back or not.

2. Exactly what sort of bragging rights would you have if someone else told you where the cache was?

3. I'm sure there are other caches out there that would fulfill that prerequisite. Log a DNF and move on.

[Mr.Benchmark]

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Mr.Benchmark, on 10 April 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place. If you can't find it, you can't find it.

1. On a cache that is clearly not intended to be very challenging, particularly in a situation where a return trip is impractical, I can see how someone would phone a friend. If nothing else, confirmation that it is indeed likely absent followed by a DNF/NM if you then can't find it is probably not wildly inappropriate.
2. For a difficult cache - you want the bragging rights. (Or at least you want to pretend to have them...)
3. You want to solve a particular cache because it fulfills some prequisite for some other cache or challenge you are attempting.

However, I'm not a very sophisticated cacher - so I just log a plain ol' DNF...

1. Log a DNF and move on. I still don't get why it must be found, coming back or not.

2. Exactly what sort of bragging rights would you have if someone else told you where the cache was?

3. I'm sure there are other caches out there that would fulfill that prerequisite. Log a DNF and move on.

No argument from me on any of these - for #1, I'd likely only do this (if I had actual friends to call that is!) were it my second visit to the location, to confirm, yeah, it's gone so that I'd have more confidence about logging "NM" or "NA".

For #2 & #3 - I agree I don't see how someone can feel good about fooling themselves into feeling good about something they haven't accomplished AT ALL. However, if you look around you, I bet you'll see examples of this in every day life. Or maybe this is just really common in Dallas - people who mostly lie to themselves (and others) about what they've done, and how capable they are? (Nah, there's entire reality TV series based on this premise...)

[StarBrand]

I am seriously starting to lose my creative will to make cool cache hides. Maybe a small touch of fluorescent pink paint will make all my hides a tad easier to discover.

A lot of Geocaching seems to have adopted an entitlement mentality that seekers "deserve" a smiley for simply seeking and then showing up on the scene. I'm here, I expended effort - I deserve to log it. So what if I needed a PAF to point me at the container.

re-read this thread and the "replacement container" thread and tell me I am wrong??

[lamoracke]

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I am seriously starting to lose my creative will to make cool cache hides. Maybe a small touch of fluorescent pink paint will make all my hides a tad easier to discover.

A lot of Geocaching seems to have adopted an entitlement mentality that seekers "deserve" a smiley for simply seeking and then showing up on the scene. I'm here, I expended effort - I deserve to log it. So what if I needed a PAF to point me at the container.

re-read this thread and the "replacement container" thread and tell me I am wrong??

I hardly think folks claiming a smiley with a replacement container is on the same level as folks calling up a friend while on site after looking for it for 30 minutes and getting either a hint or more. With the latter, they have gone through the effort of looking for a decent amount of time and have seen what the actual container looks like.

I know one cache with 85-90% favorite points which has had glowing comments all over the place and I have it on good authority that at least 2/3 of the finds were PAF calls or folks who looked for it with a past finder with them.

This post has been edited by lamoracke: 10 April 2012 - 01:46 PM

[the4dirtydogs]

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I am seriously starting to lose my creative will to make cool cache hides. Maybe a small touch of fluorescent pink paint will make all my hides a tad easier to discover.

A lot of Geocaching seems to have adopted an entitlement mentality that seekers "deserve" a smiley for simply seeking and then showing up on the scene. I'm here, I expended effort - I deserve to log it. So what if I needed a PAF to point me at the container.

re-read this thread and the "replacement container" thread and tell me I am wrong??

I was thinking the "entitlement" theory myself but waited and read the whole thread before posting. So I will agree with you on this thread and the replacement container one too.

[StarBrand]

lamoracke, on 10 April 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I am seriously starting to lose my creative will to make cool cache hides. Maybe a small touch of fluorescent pink paint will make all my hides a tad easier to discover.

A lot of Geocaching seems to have adopted an entitlement mentality that seekers "deserve" a smiley for simply seeking and then showing up on the scene. I'm here, I expended effort - I deserve to log it. So what if I needed a PAF to point me at the container.

re-read this thread and the "replacement container" thread and tell me I am wrong??

I hardly think folks claiming a smiley with a replacement container is on the same level as folks calling up a friend while on site after looking for it for 30 minutes and getting either a hint or more. With the latter, they have gone through the effort of looking for a decent amount of time and have seen what the actual container looks like.

I know one cache with 85-90% favorite points which has had glowing comments all over the place and I have it on good authority that at least 2/3 of the finds were PAF calls or folks who looked for it with a past finder with them.

I did not mean to imply that the 2 actions are equal - I did mean to say that both threads are evidence of a growing entitlement mentality.

[briansnat]

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

lamoracke, on 10 April 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I am seriously starting to lose my creative will to make cool cache hides. Maybe a small touch of fluorescent pink paint will make all my hides a tad easier to discover.

A lot of Geocaching seems to have adopted an entitlement mentality that seekers "deserve" a smiley for simply seeking and then showing up on the scene. I'm here, I expended effort - I deserve to log it. So what if I needed a PAF to point me at the container.

re-read this thread and the "replacement container" thread and tell me I am wrong??

I hardly think folks claiming a smiley with a replacement container is on the same level as folks calling up a friend while on site after looking for it for 30 minutes and getting either a hint or more. With the latter, they have gone through the effort of looking for a decent amount of time and have seen what the actual container looks like.

I know one cache with 85-90% favorite points which has had glowing comments all over the place and I have it on good authority that at least 2/3 of the finds were PAF calls or folks who looked for it with a past finder with them.

I did not mean to imply that the 2 actions are equal - I did mean to say that both threads are evidence of a growing entitlement mentality.

Or more the numbers mentality. It's not about the experience, it's about the +1