[tozainamboku]

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place. If you can't find it, you can't find it. That said, when owners spend the time, money and effort to hide challenging caches for the enjoyment of the community I think the polite and right thing to do is let them determine how much of a hint they want given out.

Without cache owners there wouldn't be much of a game here, so I think their wishes should be given consideration.

What I don't get is why cache owners would prefer that someone not find their cache to having someone who gets help from a third party. Sure you hid a challenging cache because it's likely you enjoy finding challenging caches. And you may feel a great sense of satisfaction when you find a difficult cache without a hint. But saying that unless you can figure out the challenge for yourself you should put a cache in the "you can't find every cache" category is just short of saying that you have an ALR to log a find you must find this without third party help.

I'm pretty sure Will Shortz publishes the New York Times Crossword Puzzle for those people who like to solve crossword puzzle on their own - without a dictionary. But he doesn't tell people that if you need a dictionary you should skip his puzzle - it wasn't meant for you. Even more, you won't see him complain when someone working the puzzle asks a family member or a co-worker, "What's a seven letter word for perspicacity?" In fact we all accept that this is how many people work crossword puzzles. I'm just not seeing the difference in a puzzle cache or a difficult hide.

Humans have a natural tendency to make things easier. Certainly that doesn't go for everyone. Some people are well know for making things more complicated than they need to be . But if you put out a difficult cache you should not be surprise if someone asks someone else for a hint.

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I am seriously starting to lose my creative will to make cool cache hides.

I really hope you don't hide cache with the intention frustrating others. Or get disappointed because not everyone who likes a difficult hide will find this "the way you intended." I suspect there are plenty of people who like difficult finds and they will do what it takes to avoid spoilers, so they can feel the satisfaction of eventually finding the cache on their own. Others will still enjoy yourchallenging hides simply because they will appreciate how the cache can be in plain sight and muggles won't find it or how you constructed the camouflage so that it matches so well. Perhaps a few will see it a just another smiley - but this is rare. I've seen so called numbers caches remark how some hide like this was there favorite even though they needed a PAF to find it.

Quote

A lot of Geocaching seems to have adopted an entitlement mentality that seekers "deserve" a smiley for simply seeking and then showing up on the scene. I'm here, I expended effort - I deserve to log it. So what if I needed a PAF to point me at the container.

I find this statement a bit strange. One could claim that cache hiders demanding no spoilers or hints have an entitlement mentality themselves. You hid a cache for people to find. How can you possible expect that geocachers won't talk about it or share information? I have not attended even one event where some wasn't talking about the tricky cache the had found recently. Accusing people who get hints or who share hint of being "numbers" cachers with an entitlement mentality that should get a smiley for every cache is ludicrous. It smacks of the idea that the find count is "the score" instead of realizing the that real object of the game is to enjoy yourself and have fun. Yes some people enjoy solving problems and figuring out difficult cache and other enjoy not spending too much time at any cache and calling friend for hints when can't find the cache immediately. So what?

[StarBrand]

....again - why MUST the cache be found instead of logging a DNF (reality)?? I mean otherwise all cache owners should have an explicit spoiler photo or hint if the intent is to always find the container after getting to the location. If they did not leave such a spoiler - why disrespect the owner by telling everybody that asks where it is at without their permission?

I know you see it differently Toz. But try to help me understand why it simply MUST be logged if you bothered to get that far?? I do not understand the mentality that says any possible way of doing Geocaching is ok and should be accepted. To me, there should be some reasonable limits on how far you should go..

[Mr.Benchmark]

People who like to see others log DNF's on challenging caches they place have nothing to apologize for - watching others fail is sometimes hilarious. How could someone be so thoughtless as to deny them this simple pleasure. If you don't like that type of game - don't find that cache. Tozainamboku makes this sound like a character flaw or something!<sup>*





_{*</sup>note: in my opinion, the difficulty in designing a something challenging for a player is to make it engaging enough that they stick with it until they solve it, and ultimately have fun, rather than giving up in total frustration. I personally think it's more fun if people are able to solve the problem in a surprising or creative way, but not everyone feels that way.}

[tozainamboku]

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

....again - why MUST the cache be found instead of logging a DNF (reality)?? I mean otherwise all cache owners should have an explicit spoiler photo or hint if the intent is to always find the container after getting to the location. If they did not leave such a spoiler - why disrespect the owner by telling everybody that asks where it is at without their permission?

I know you see it differently Toz. But try to help me understand why it simply MUST be logged if you bothered to get that far?? I do not understand the mentality that says any possible way of doing Geocaching is ok and should be accepted. To me, there should be some reasonable limits on how far you should go..

IMO, even if you are hiding a difficult cache, you should be hiding it to be found. I don't understand the mentality of "I am going make this so hard that nobody can find it." I do understand the mentality of "I enjoy being challenged so I am going to make this so hard that finders will be challenged". Then be happy when people who enjoy challenging caches find it and even happier when they leave favorite points. But don't be upset if someone finds this who asked for and got help. That person has decided that they enjoy finding caches and prefer not to challenged too much. If they had fun, you can even be glad your cache provided them fun.

(I had three paragraphs on why someone might prefer to log a find then to DNF a cache and how the high number cachers that I know are actually great examples that you don't need to find every cache. But it isn't worth debating that side of the issue with someone who believes that numbers are the root of evil.)

[OZ2CPU]

come on, a cache is designed to be found,
not to waste peoples time with alot of pain and alot of DNF,
however I dont say put it out in the open so even a blind geocacher can find it,
it is fun to search a bit for it, but it is not fun to search too much,
how much the pain limit is, depends alot from cache to cache, and some like it easy and other a bit harder fine,
also please read the new rules/guideline, I think I saw something about it may not be designed for only a little group of specially skilled persons,
I think I understands this like it was a bit of a problem with too extreme T/D ratings of some caches
and also some puzzles was only designed to drive people mad, and waster their time, and no one could solve them,
see they are specially designed NOT to be solved by normal skilled geocachers = not legal anymore

[rosebud55112]

OZ2CPU, on 11 April 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

come on, a cache is designed to be found,
not to waste peoples time with alot of pain and alot of DNF,
however I dont say put it out in the open so even a blind geocacher can find it,
it is fun to search a bit for it, but it is not fun to search too much,
how much the pain limit is, depends alot from cache to cache, and some like it easy and other a bit harder fine,
also please read the new rules/guideline, I think I saw something about it may not be designed for only a little group of specially skilled persons,
I think I understands this like it was a bit of a problem with too extreme T/D ratings of some caches
and also some puzzles was only designed to drive people mad, and waster their time, and no one could solve them,
see they are specially designed NOT to be solved by normal skilled geocachers = not legal anymore

OZ2CPU--I think you are refering to the new guidelines for Challenge caches, and those guidelines do not apply to puzzle caches in general, or even caches in general.

I've seen a lot of "I don't mind if people give hints on my caches, so I give hints on other people's caches" in this thread.

Suppose you put your feet up on your coffee table while you watch television. I certainly hope that if you were visiting someone else's home you would have enough courtesy not to do that without checking with the homeowner or seeing them do so.

Go ahead and do whatever you want with your caches, but have a little courtesy to defer the hint-req

[rosebud55112]

OZ2CPU, on 11 April 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

come on, a cache is designed to be found,
not to waste peoples time with alot of pain and alot of DNF,
however I dont say put it out in the open so even a blind geocacher can find it,
it is fun to search a bit for it, but it is not fun to search too much,
how much the pain limit is, depends alot from cache to cache, and some like it easy and other a bit harder fine,
also please read the new rules/guideline, I think I saw something about it may not be designed for only a little group of specially skilled persons,
I think I understands this like it was a bit of a problem with too extreme T/D ratings of some caches
and also some puzzles was only designed to drive people mad, and waster their time, and no one could solve them,
see they are specially designed NOT to be solved by normal skilled geocachers = not legal anymore

OZ2CPU--I think you are refering to the new guidelines for Challenge caches, and those guidelines do not apply to puzzle caches in general, or even caches in general.

I've seen a lot of "I don't mind if people give hints on my caches, so I give hints on other people's caches" in this thread.

Suppose you put your feet up on your coffee table while you watch television. I certainly hope that if you were visiting someone else's home you would have enough courtesy not to do that without checking with the homeowner or seeing them do so.

Go ahead and do whatever you want with your caches, but have a little courtesy to defer the hint-requesters to the CO.

[BAMBOOZLE]

Between PAF and folks not liking to log DNF's you don't see many blue faces. It really affects those looking for the cache because when you see all yellow faces you feel you should have an excellant chance to find the cache but that is not always the case.

[StarBrand]

tozainamboku, on 10 April 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

....again - why MUST the cache be found instead of logging a DNF (reality)?? I mean otherwise all cache owners should have an explicit spoiler photo or hint if the intent is to always find the container after getting to the location. If they did not leave such a spoiler - why disrespect the owner by telling everybody that asks where it is at without their permission?

I know you see it differently Toz. But try to help me understand why it simply MUST be logged if you bothered to get that far?? I do not understand the mentality that says any possible way of doing Geocaching is ok and should be accepted. To me, there should be some reasonable limits on how far you should go..

IMO, even if you are hiding a difficult cache, you should be hiding it to be found. I don't understand the mentality of "I am going make this so hard that nobody can find it." I do understand the mentality of "I enjoy being challenged so I am going to make this so hard that finders will be challenged". Then be happy when people who enjoy challenging caches find it and even happier when they leave favorite points. But don't be upset if someone finds this who asked for and got help. That person has decided that they enjoy finding caches and prefer not to challenged too much. If they had fun, you can even be glad your cache provided them fun.

(I had three paragraphs on why someone might prefer to log a find then to DNF a cache and how the high number cachers that I know are actually great examples that you don't need to find every cache. But it isn't worth debating that side of the issue with someone who believes that numbers are the root of evil.)

Who said anything about making a cache so hard that nobody finds it???

I log DNFs on caches that are rated 1.5 for difficulty and have 300 finds and zero other DNF logs. It happens. Doesn't mean I deserve to log a find just because I looked hard and was the one dolt that could not find it (or the only one without a PAF).

[knowschad]

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place.

I know plenty of geocachers that completely "get" why a cache has to be found in the first place. What they don't "get" is how somebody can walk off without finding it.

[redsox_mark]

knowschad, on 11 April 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place.

I know plenty of geocachers that completely "get" why a cache has to be found in the first place. What they don't "get" is how somebody can walk off without finding it.

I like this.

For me, it's not that the cache HAS to be found. I have lots of DNFs. But I sure would rather find it than not. I only have a few friends I would phone, and don't do it often, but I have done PAF. Not on any cache which was purposely challenging - on ones intended to be easy that I couldn't find.

With puzzles - or a challenging hide - I've never asked for a hint other than from the owner. If others ask me for a hint I'll give them one unless I know the owner doesn't want that. Mainly as helping others is a good way to make friends.

After one of my early DNFs, the previous finder (not the owner) emailed me and offered to meet me and help me find it. I took him up on the offer. He didn't give it away; just gave small hints. It was much appreciated, and since that time he's one of my caching friends and we've gone out several times caching together.

[Ambrosia]

I don't think that I'm entitled or feel that I deserve a smiley. I certainly am not a numbers cacher, I've found under 2000 caches in 10 years. I've had hundreds of dnfs. But I do use PAF sometimes. I've done that since 2002, so it's not a new trend in my case. I can't speak for others.

I still have a cache that I've dnf'd probably 5 times (or more?), a physical cache in town. The darned thing sticks out like a sore thumb on my map, because I've found pretty much every other cache in town (except for the ones that are probably missing). I can get the cache in my hands, I just can't open it! I've thought about calling the owner about it, but I haven't yet.

[Clan Riffster]

knowschad, on 11 April 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

briansnat, on 10 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What I don't get is why it is imperative that the cache has to be found in the first place.

I know plenty of geocachers that completely "get" why a cache has to be found in the first place. What they don't "get" is how somebody can walk off without finding it.

Or smell the rancid dumpster nearby and walk away without even trying.

[StarBrand]

Ambrosia, on 11 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I don't think that I'm entitled or feel that I deserve a smiley. I certainly am not a numbers cacher, I've found under 2000 caches in 10 years. I've had hundreds of dnfs. But I do use PAF sometimes. I've done that since 2002, so it's not a new trend in my case. I can't speak for others.

....

Ok maybe entitled is a bit harsh - but my new question is: Given that you do not feel entitled or that you deserve that smiley - why exactly did you pull out the phone and make those sometimes calls??

- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

[6NoisyHikers]

StarBrand, on 10 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

....again - why MUST the cache be found instead of logging a DNF (reality)?? I mean otherwise all cache owners should have an explicit spoiler photo or hint if the intent is to always find the container after getting to the location...

The cache must be found because it's a challenge to find. I'll log a dozen DNFs and keep coming back because I don't like to be stumped (or fenced, or rocked, or benched...) But I wouldn't phone a friend. I want to find it myself. I'll read the hint, I'll read the logs, anything that is available for to everyone to see, but I don't want inside information.

However, for those who need to know, here are a collection of spoilers:

Spoiler

It's a flat electrical plate stuck with a magnet to the light pole.
It's in the water, attached to a brick!
It's in the top of the stump.
It's a fake bolt!
It's in the hole in the tree. (This one is ours.)

You're welcome.

[Clan Riffster]

StarBrand, on 11 April 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ambrosia, on 11 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I don't think that I'm entitled or feel that I deserve a smiley. I certainly am not a numbers cacher, I've found under 2000 caches in 10 years. I've had hundreds of dnfs. But I do use PAF sometimes. I've done that since 2002, so it's not a new trend in my case. I can't speak for others.

....

Ok maybe entitled is a bit harsh - but my new question is: Given that you do not feel entitled or that you deserve that smiley - why exactly did you pull out the phone and make those sometimes calls??

- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Perhaps a better question is, "Why not make the call?".
I mean, you're there, at ground zero. Convenience suggests that this is the most efficient point in the hide and seek equation to receive a nudge. So long as the cache is owned by someone you know doesn't mind PAF assists, why not?

[lamoracke]

Clan Riffster, on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

StarBrand, on 11 April 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ambrosia, on 11 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I don't think that I'm entitled or feel that I deserve a smiley. I certainly am not a numbers cacher, I've found under 2000 caches in 10 years. I've had hundreds of dnfs. But I do use PAF sometimes. I've done that since 2002, so it's not a new trend in my case. I can't speak for others.

....

Ok maybe entitled is a bit harsh - but my new question is: Given that you do not feel entitled or that you deserve that smiley - why exactly did you pull out the phone and make those sometimes calls??

- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Perhaps a better question is, "Why not make the call?".
I mean, you're there, at ground zero. Convenience suggests that this is the most efficient point in the hide and seek equation to receive a nudge. So long as the cache is owned by someone you know doesn't mind PAF assists, why not?

well, if you know a CO that does mind PAF assists, you just do not mention it in your log that you called one. I may mention that I used a PAF in a log when its a CO I know who does not get upset by it.

[tozainamboku]

StarBrand, on 11 April 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ok maybe entitled is a bit harsh - but my new question is: Given that you do not feel entitled or that you deserve that smiley - why exactly did you pull out the phone and make those sometimes calls??

- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Can you understand why someone working the New York Times crossword puzzle would use a dictionary when they get stuck, or ask someone for a word that fits the clue?

[StarBrand]

tozainamboku, on 11 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

StarBrand, on 11 April 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ok maybe entitled is a bit harsh - but my new question is: Given that you do not feel entitled or that you deserve that smiley - why exactly did you pull out the phone and make those sometimes calls??

- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Can you understand why someone working the New York Times crossword puzzle would use a dictionary when they get stuck, or ask someone for a word that fits the clue?

Well actually - now that you ask, I am rather a purist when it comes to such things. I wouldn't seek help and I would likely fail at the task of completing the puzzle. But I tend not to try to work on such puzzles because I know that I will likely fail at completing it. I know that I would not seek any help to finish it - that would just serve to prove that I am lousy at crossword puzzles.

Can you now better understand why I feel so strongly about folks giving away my caches??

[6NoisyHikers]

I had a local cacher send me a PM after I had found a cache that he had DNF'd the day before. He said he didn't want to know where the cache was; he only wanted to know if it was near a certain tree in the area. With the nature of the hide, I felt I could confirm that it was the right tree. Then I also mentioned that if he read the logs, it would be very helpful.

Fair?

[StarBrand]

6NoisyHikers, on 11 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

I had a local cacher send me a PM after I had found a cache that he had DNF'd the day before. He said he didn't want to know where the cache was; he only wanted to know if it was near a certain tree in the area. With the nature of the hide, I felt I could confirm that it was the right tree. Then I also mentioned that if he read the logs, it would be very helpful.

Fair?

The real question for this thread is: If you owned the cache and somebody was out there helping nudge other cachers to the exact spot - would it disturb you??

If it does not bother you a bit - fine, no issue at all. (I have no issue with this idea at all either)

If it does bother you. You better learn to live with it because some folks are going to do it despite your wishes. (I am generally bugged by this)

[6NoisyHikers]

StarBrand, on 11 April 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

The real question for this thread is: If you owned the cache and somebody was out there helping nudge other cachers to the exact spot - would it disturb you??

If it does not bother you a bit - fine, no issue at all. (I have no issue with this idea at all either)

If it does bother you. You better learn to live with it because some folks are going to do it despite your wishes. (I am generally bugged by this)

I suppose it is a stretch to hope that most people would be able to tell the difference between a hide that is meant to be tricky and one that is just elusive because for whatever reason we have caching cateracts that day.

Honestly, when I see logs that mention that the finder phoned someone for a hint I think: But this does not effect the way I play the game, so I don't dwell on it. I'm proud when we find a tough cache on our own, but I get off on problem-solving

Our two hides are straight-forward, nothing clever other than a nice spot to visit, so I wouldn't worry too much about people sharing hints. But I have an idea for a very tricky hide and it would be disappointing if the first few finders then passed on the trick to their friends. It's like spilling the beans on the magic. Still, there isn't much to be done about it other than to make a plea on the cache page asking others not to give it away.

So: yes, in certain circumstances, as a CO, it would bother me. But: no, it wouldn't ruin my day.

[Mr.Benchmark]

In some types of gaming, there is a definite mindset that getting assistance from others isn't cheating at all - in fact in some situations, it is expected if you are serious about playing. Video games are like this - particularly competitive gameplay. (Not saying that makes it right , just pointing out a different mindset.)

I do have a question - hints on which types of caches seem to be the most common / problematical?
1. Complete solutions to puzzles
2. Final location of a multi-cache, allowing the user to bypass the intermediate stages
3. Exact hiding spot, or how to find a tricky traditional cache hide?

I've seen some spoiler logs on caches that basically required you to bring gear you were unlikely to have on you without prior knowledge of the cache. I can appreciate how this annoyed the CO. He went to a LOT of trouble, and people did not all play along.
1. People apparently didn't enjoy making multiple trips so they circumvented that requirement by sharing information.
2. The desire to go "look at me, I'm so smart, I solved this, here's the photos to prove it" is apparently irresistible to some.
3. I suspect in some cases people feel that cooperation is the right thing to do. Perhaps they feel pressured when someone calls.

I don't think this has anything to do with entitlement mostly - if you are stymied by something, and frustrated, there can be great emotional investment in eliminating that frustation by any means possible. I don't feel this way - I am used to spending days on ended frustrated and stymied, but for some it is a novel experience and apparently they don't play well in that state...

[redsox_mark]

StarBrand, on 11 April 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

The real question for this thread is: If you owned the cache and somebody was out there helping nudge other cachers to the exact spot - would it disturb you??

If it does not bother you a bit - fine, no issue at all. (I have no issue with this idea at all either)

If it does bother you. You better learn to live with it because some folks are going to do it despite your wishes. (I am generally bugged by this)

As a CO, it does not bother me. In general.

I think it is human nature to ask for help if stuck, or to help someone out.

I do make a distinction between trying then asking for a bit of help and purposely trying to short-cut a cache. The hide I've invested the most time in is a Wherigo. It takes about 1.5 hours to do - 30 minutes of which is the walk to the final cache. The Wherigo game itself is not hard, though a couple of people have had difficulty with one stage (finding out the name of the horse).

If someone was stuck at that stage and PAF to get the name of the horse - I would have no issue with that at all. I want people to finish the Wherigo; I don't want them to be stuck and abandon the game at that point.

Now how would I feel if people started giving out the final coordinates of the cache - so it could be found without playing the Wherigo at all? They would still need to do the 30 minute walk (there is no closer place accessible by car), but it would save them an hour. I would be dissapointed - but mostly as the finder would be missing out on what most people seem to be enjoying. Now, what if everyone started doing that. Somebody posts the final coordinates somewhere and now everyone is bypassing the Wherigo. That would bother me, as I enjoy reading the logs about people doing the Wherigo. And what would be the point of creating it if nobody plays it.

In summary - what I'm trying to say is most of the giving hints is done in good faith. People who have tried something and need a little help, and others willing to help. And I have no issue with that.
Taken to the extreme - e.g. not even trying to solve a puzzle, just going to the final coordinates - is different, but if someone does that they are only "cheating" themselves (missing a lot of the fun part).

[OZ2CPU]

where is the LIKE, redsox ?
or the AGREE ?
have fun out there, digging arround in the mud for hrs is just no fun !
driving back 5 times x 100 km each way to re-search for a cache after more info or a hint
is not good for CO2 either.

[redsox_mark]

OZ2CPU, on 12 April 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

where is the LIKE, redsox ?
or the AGREE ?
have fun out there, digging arround in the mud for hrs is just no fun !
driving back 5 times x 100 km each way to re-search for a cache after more info or a hint
is not good for CO2 either.

Sorry I have not quoted specific responses, just stating my opinion. But I hope it is clear what I like and agree with.

I like people to use their judgement if it is appropriate to ask someone for help or not.

I like people to use their judgement if it is OK to help when asked, and what sort of help is appropriate.

I understand and accept that some people think it is wrong to ever ask for help. Just log a DNF and move on.

I do have some concern that by helping someone I could be going against the cache owners wishes; but I factor the likelihood of that when deciding if and how I might help.

With your mention of digging around in the mud I just had to post this cache page link Flotsam & Jetsam EXTREME. With this, the mud is the fun. So that brings up another example. This cache as virtual stages in the mud. If a friend phoned me from one of the stages and needed help finding the information, I would have no problem in helping. I know the cache owner and he would want that too; he would not want people walking barefoot in mud for hours then failing to find the cache. But if someone contacted me wanting to avoid the mud walk altogether and asking me for the final coordinates, I would not give them that information.

[Harry Dolphin]

StarBrand, on 11 April 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ambrosia, on 11 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I don't think that I'm entitled or feel that I deserve a smiley. I certainly am not a numbers cacher, I've found under 2000 caches in 10 years. I've had hundreds of dnfs. But I do use PAF sometimes. I've done that since 2002, so it's not a new trend in my case. I can't speak for others.

....

Ok maybe entitled is a bit harsh - but my new question is: Given that you do not feel entitled or that you deserve that smiley - why exactly did you pull out the phone and make those sometimes calls??

- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I suspect that two of the finders saw the foot. And another, after the find.
PAF. Entitled to find it! Don't bother asking for a hint, or returning after the DNF? Yeah. The modern, entitled world. (Okay. They did sy they'd be back.)
Dunno. I do see entitlement. I need to get the smiley, so I'll PAF. (Okay. I will admit to using PAF once. )
Got this notification on a cache of mine that's been out three weeks with six finds.

Quote

Searched for about an hour and 20 minutes for no find! I know what to look for after a paf but no luck. Great. Will be back!

No one e-mailed me for a hint. Let's go the PAF route!



Guess I'm silly. Or testing visual perception versus geocaching sense. The cache is called Underfoot. And that's the clue. Looks like a foot to me! Under the rock under the foot. Yeah. A tough area to search if you don't understand the hint. Can't find it? PAF. Didn't ask me for a hint.

[JustJackMN]

I ask for hints and I give hints. If they want me to take them and show them I do that too. I completely wish they would outlaw puzzle caches. Isn't the object of this game to go out and find a cache, or is it to make a person spend hours indoors getting migraines trying to figure out a puzzle with 15 layers, 12 twists and turns, and endless red herrings? I put out two puzzle caches and if someone wants me to tell them where they are, no problem I'll tell them. Just sayin

[BAMBOOZLE]

JustJackMN, on 13 April 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

I ask for hints and I give hints. If they want me to take them and show them I do that too. I completely wish they would outlaw puzzle caches. Isn't the object of this game to go out and find a cache, or is it to make a person spend hours indoors getting migraines trying to figure out a puzzle with 15 layers, 12 twists and turns, and endless red herrings? I put out two puzzle caches and if someone wants me to tell them where they are, no problem I'll tell them. Just sayin

I totally agree with you re puzzle caches.....I'm puzzled that they are a part of the game.

[bflentje]

It's funny, PAF only bothers me when it's on MY cache.

In all seriousness, PAF does not bother me at all unless it's a NEW cache. If you've got a high star cache or difficult puzzle that takes days to get FTF, suddenly followed by many finds, clearly some cheating is going on. And while I accept that, I DESPISE it on the new caches, new being defined as having been published in the last couple weeks, 1 to a couple of finds, or some combination therein.

[guillermospapa]

BAMBOOZLE, on 13 April 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

JustJackMN, on 13 April 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

I ask for hints and I give hints. If they want me to take them and show them I do that too. I completely wish they would outlaw puzzle caches. Isn't the object of this game to go out and find a cache, or is it to make a person spend hours indoors getting migraines trying to figure out a puzzle with 15 layers, 12 twists and turns, and endless red herrings? I put out two puzzle caches and if someone wants me to tell them where they are, no problem I'll tell them. Just sayin

I totally agree with you re puzzle caches.....I'm puzzled that they are a part of the game.

I think that the magic of geocaching is that it a game where each individual can define what it's about. If you like long hikes in the woods, you have that option; if you prefer numbers, go after P&G's; if you like making things for others, create your own hides; if you like mind games, create and solve puzzles! (The only one I don't get is the impossible challenge caches that clog the landscape, but that's another thread.) As for me, I have enjoyed having every cache in the county logged as a find. Then you have people who hide nanos in the woods and think it's a great cache. I'll get help if I can log the smiley and not have to see the cache on the top of my closest-to-home list reminding me how much I hate that type of cache. (It would bug me to "ignore" a cache.)

[jellis]

I know even I acquire coords from puzzles like being with someone who already solved them, given by the owner or another cacher. I don't even mind if others who do it to mine. But this last Friday I released a puzzle and enjoyed those who tried to solve it, knowing it was not that hard but some cachers over think it. The puzzle was created by another geocacher friend who has others the same.
I swore I was not going to give any hint to anyone until the cache was solved and found by someone. Well I guess it was mostly my fault while at my CITO event I announced that the cache was solved and the cacher was stuck at work. But that cacher contacted other cachers (and contacted by cachers) and gave them the coords to go find it. I'm not going to to delete the logs but there were a lot of disappointed cachers that it had happened. Yes I was disappointed it happened too but I knew it does happen and wish cachers at least try to solve the puzzle at least.

[hukilaulau]

VeeRich, on 08 April 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

So basically I'm just wondering how you feel about others giving out hints on your hides?

I don't care at all. I'm glad people are out looking for caches. I'm glad they ask for help instead of just giving up. I want my hides to be found.
And just for the record: I hate reading "email me for a hint."