[Nick - Cacher]

These are two places in the City Park that I wanted to put my magnetic switch plate. I'm trying to think about which of these two places you'd think would be better, or if I should just try a different way to hide altogether? (and of course I'd paint the switch plate to match whichever place):



OR




I get the impression the place in the first picture would be easier to hide relative to the second, but since I got permission from the park superintendent, I'd be worried that some people may pull apart parts that they shouldn't while looking through trial and error and he'd blame me. (Also I didn't tell him I'd be using a fake electrical switch plate, because I didn't know at the time). I'd think the location in the second picture would be quite easy, but less likely to cause damage. The purpose of the cache would be to lure people from nearby cities to this park, who may not have been there before but go around trying to find caches they haven't found yet.

Do you think I should use one of these two places for the switch plate, or try hiding in the park a completely different way?

This post has been edited by Nick - Cacher: 16 April 2012 - 04:38 PM

[Mr.Yuck]

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

And light posts are the private property of someone but you see LPCs everywhere. Electrical boxes and electrical panels are private property and people attach magnetic caches to them all the time.

From what I have seen, it is illegal to hide caches on USPS boxes, and Canada Post boxes, and if it's found out the cache is on one, it will be archived. I live pretty close to Canada, and have seen the archival notices. As well as American ones.

[knowschad]

Nick - Cacher, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Do you think I should use one of these two places for the switch plate, or try hiding in the park a completely different way?

Switch plates are commonplace. Instead, see that cover plate lower down, on the righthand side? Fake one of those up and you'll have something unique!

[Glenn]

Nick - Cacher, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I get the impression the place in the first picture would be easier to hide relative to the second, but since I got permission from the park superintendent,

And we have a winner. You got permission. As long as your fully disclose to the property manager what you are doing and they are okay with it then I have little issue with it. There may still be some guideline issues and I can't answer of anyone besides myself.

[Glenn]

knowschad, on 16 April 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

And light posts are the private property of someone but you see LPCs everywhere. Electrical boxes and electrical panels are private property and people attach magnetic caches to them all the time.

What is the maximum penalty for attaching one to a light post?

Assuming that placing a cache magnetic cache container on a mailbox is tampering then it is only logical to conclude that placing a magnetic cache container on a lamp post is also tampering. I also assume that any fine would very from state to state and property manager to property manager.

[J the Goat]

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

AZcachemeister, on 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

The penalty for tampering with a postal mail collection device is a fine of $20,000 and one year in FEDERAL prison. Attaching any unapproved device to the mailbox is tampering with the mailbox.
Unlikely that you would get the maximum penalty just for hiding a cache, but I don't want to be a test case.

BTW, the penalty extends to anyone who knows about the 'device' but didn't report it, and you just signed a logbook to prove you were there?

For some reason I read that as UPS and not USPS.

I believe that the key word in that law is tampering. Tampering is defined as "to render something harmful or dangerous by altering its structure or composition". Using that definition of tampering I don't see how attaching a cache to a USPS mailbox makes it harmful or dangerous.

I took a look at USC 18 USC 1705. Which is what I assume that you are referring to. I'll quote it here.
"Whoever willfully or maliciously injures, tears down or destroys any letter box or other receptacle intended or used for the receipt or delivery of mail on any mail route, or breaks open the same or willfully or maliciously injures, defaces or destroys any mail deposited therein, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

I don't see anything about attaching unproved devices being considered tampering. However I agree. I wouldn't want to be the test case.

I think it's this part right here.

[J the Goat]

J the Goat, on 16 April 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

AZcachemeister, on 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

The penalty for tampering with a postal mail collection device is a fine of $20,000 and one year in FEDERAL prison. Attaching any unapproved device to the mailbox is tampering with the mailbox.
Unlikely that you would get the maximum penalty just for hiding a cache, but I don't want to be a test case.

BTW, the penalty extends to anyone who knows about the 'device' but didn't report it, and you just signed a logbook to prove you were there?

For some reason I read that as UPS and not USPS.

I believe that the key word in that law is tampering. Tampering is defined as "to render something harmful or dangerous by altering its structure or composition". Using that definition of tampering I don't see how attaching a cache to a USPS mailbox makes it harmful or dangerous.

I took a look at USC 18 USC 1705. Which is what I assume that you are referring to. I'll quote it here.
"Whoever willfully or maliciously injures, tears down or destroys any letter box or other receptacle intended or used for the receipt or delivery of mail on any mail route, or breaks open the same or willfully or maliciously injures, defaces or destroys any mail deposited therein, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

I don't see anything about attaching unproved devices being considered tampering. However I agree. I wouldn't want to be the test case.

I think it's this part right here.

Nevermind, I just actually read what I was responding to. Bleh.

That being said, I don't think the USPS would appreciate things being stuck to their mailboxes.

[J the Goat]

Nick - Cacher, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

These are two places in the City Park that I wanted to put my magnetic switch plate. I'm trying to think about which of these two places you'd think would be better, or if I should just try a different way to hide altogether? (and of course I'd paint the switch plate to match whichever place):



OR




I get the impression the place in the first picture would be easier to hide relative to the second, but since I got permission from the park superintendent, I'd be worried that some people may pull apart parts that they shouldn't while looking through trial and error and he'd blame me. (Also I didn't tell him I'd be using a fake electrical switch plate, because I didn't know at the time). I'd think the location in the second picture would be quite easy, but less likely to cause damage. The purpose of the cache would be to lure people from nearby cities to this park, who may not have been there before but go around trying to find caches they haven't found yet.

Do you think I should use one of these two places for the switch plate, or try hiding in the park a completely different way?

If your point is to bring people to the park, why not bring them into the park and not to the edge of the parking lot where they don't have to enter the park? Hide a good cache IN the park, and viola! Problem(s) solved.

[SwineFlew]

Mr.Yuck, on 16 April 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

And light posts are the private property of someone but you see LPCs everywhere. Electrical boxes and electrical panels are private property and people attach magnetic caches to them all the time.

From what I have seen, it is illegal to hide caches on USPS boxes, and Canada Post boxes, and if it's found out the cache is on one, it will be archived. I live pretty close to Canada, and have seen the archival notices. As well as American ones.

Someone please post an archive log for me. THIS!

[fuzziebear3]

I think you should encourage people into the park, possibly with a lock and lock somewhere off the trails within the park.

The switchplate might make a fun hide, but I would do it somewhere other than the park. Maybe in a more urban environment, on the side of something non-electrical, like a newspaper box.

[Planet]

Nick - Cacher, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

These are two places in the City Park that I wanted to put my magnetic switch plate. I'm trying to think about which of these two places you'd think would be better, or if I should just try a different way to hide altogether? (and of course I'd paint the switch plate to match whichever place):



OR




I get the impression the place in the first picture would be easier to hide relative to the second, but since I got permission from the park superintendent, I'd be worried that some people may pull apart parts that they shouldn't while looking through trial and error and he'd blame me. (Also I didn't tell him I'd be using a fake electrical switch plate, because I didn't know at the time). I'd think the location in the second picture would be quite easy, but less likely to cause damage. The purpose of the cache would be to lure people from nearby cities to this park, who may not have been there before but go around trying to find caches they haven't found yet.

Do you think I should use one of these two places for the switch plate, or try hiding in the park a completely different way?

Ugh. Not very pretty. Get a new container and show me the park. I can see electric boxes and light poles all the way to work every day.

Boring! Besides that, you already gave away the hide. Hey everybody! It's under the skirt!

[Mr.Yuck]

SwineFlew, on 17 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Mr.Yuck, on 16 April 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

And light posts are the private property of someone but you see LPCs everywhere. Electrical boxes and electrical panels are private property and people attach magnetic caches to them all the time.

From what I have seen, it is illegal to hide caches on USPS boxes, and Canada Post boxes, and if it's found out the cache is on one, it will be archived. I live pretty close to Canada, and have seen the archival notices. As well as American ones.

Someone please post an archive log for me. THIS!

Nope, you're going to have to post it yourself.

[SwineFlew]

Mr.Yuck, on 17 April 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 17 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Mr.Yuck, on 16 April 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

And light posts are the private property of someone but you see LPCs everywhere. Electrical boxes and electrical panels are private property and people attach magnetic caches to them all the time.

From what I have seen, it is illegal to hide caches on USPS boxes, and Canada Post boxes, and if it's found out the cache is on one, it will be archived. I live pretty close to Canada, and have seen the archival notices. As well as American ones.

Someone please post an archive log for me. THIS!

Nope, you're going to have to post it yourself.

[Planet]

You can just send a link and explanation to the reviewer and remain anonymous, too.

[Colonial Cats]

I get uncomfortable with all this archiving talk. I've seen some cachers become Geo-Police and create problems where none existed.

[Clan Riffster]

knowschad, on 16 April 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

What is the maximum penalty for attaching one to a light post?

The same as attaching one to a USPS box. $0.00
If you can show me a case where someone paid a higher fine for sticking a magnetic hide-a-key to a R2D2 mailbox, I'll retract that.

Nick - Cacher, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Isn't that box property of the electric company?
If so, you'd need to get permission from them, not the park it resides in.

But having seen plenty of parking lot lamp posts and ugly power boxes in my lifetime, why not show me the actual park itself? I'm not afraid of burning the occasional calorie.

Mr.Yuck, on 16 April 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

From what I have seen, it is illegal to hide caches on USPS boxes

Source?
Just because Groundspeak tells their Reviewers to archive any caches found on USPS property, doesn't mean that the placement itself was a criminal act.

J the Goat, on 16 April 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

AZcachemeister, on 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

The penalty for tampering with a postal mail collection device is a fine of $20,000 and one year in FEDERAL prison. Attaching any unapproved device to the mailbox is tampering with the mailbox.
Unlikely that you would get the maximum penalty just for hiding a cache, but I don't want to be a test case.

BTW, the penalty extends to anyone who knows about the 'device' but didn't report it, and you just signed a logbook to prove you were there?

For some reason I read that as UPS and not USPS.

I believe that the key word in that law is tampering. Tampering is defined as "to render something harmful or dangerous by altering its structure or composition". Using that definition of tampering I don't see how attaching a cache to a USPS mailbox makes it harmful or dangerous.

I took a look at USC 18 USC 1705. Which is what I assume that you are referring to. I'll quote it here.
"Whoever willfully or maliciously injures, tears down or destroys any letter box or other receptacle intended or used for the receipt or delivery of mail on any mail route, or breaks open the same or willfully or maliciously injures, defaces or destroys any mail deposited therein, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

I don't see anything about attaching unproved devices being considered tampering. However I agree. I wouldn't want to be the test case.

I think it's this part right here.

I think you might have bolded the wrong part. Either that, or my monitor is messing up again. From here it looks like you bolded the word "defaces". Since we all know that defacing means to mar the appearance of, and/or to injure by effacing significant details, obviously sticking a magnet onto one would not fit the elements.

[Planet]

Magnets scratch paint with constant removal and replacement. Just don't put your fellow cacher in the position of being the one who gets caught. I just read a bunch of different articles and they all say mailboxes are for mail only and once placed, it is the property of the Federal Government. Do you want to tangle with them? Not me.

[Glenn]

Planet, on 18 April 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Magnets scratch paint with constant removal and replacement. Just don't put your fellow cacher in the position of being the one who gets caught. I just read a bunch of different articles and they all say mailboxes are for mail only and once placed, it is the property of the Federal Government. Do you want to tangle with them? Not me.

I highly doubt that scratching the paint on a mailbox can be considered "willfully or maliciously injures, tears down or destroys". I've scratched the paint on a mailbox with it's own door while opening the mailbox. I've also accidentally scratched the paint on a mailbox with my car keys. I doubt anyone is coming to arrest me for those "crimes". Good luck trying to prove that placing a magnetic game piece on a mailbox is willful destruction.

[Nick - Cacher]

J the Goat, on 16 April 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

If your point is to bring people to the park, why not bring them into the park and not to the edge of the parking lot where they don't have to enter the park? Hide a good cache IN the park, and viola! Problem(s) solved.

I'm still a newbie, but I was wondering if creating a "Multi-Cache" with the final location hidden would be a good way to get them to go through the park? Then I could have the ending place be where that one picture is?

The reason why is it's a nice park, but I think there's a reason no one else has placed a geocache yet. The City Park is muggleville and is mostly open grass playing fields, playgrounds, swing sets, and bowery picnic table areas. In my first any only geocache I've placed, I put a "regular size" in a different park and people in their comments said "Thanks for taking me to the park, the kids liked the playground". However, there were plenty of shrubs and evergreens to hide it, but in this park I'm thinking of it's a nice park but none of those dense shrubs.

I'm also trying to get rid of my magnetic switch plate I bought, and can't send it back, so I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. Maybe since you've been geocaching for a while you'd have some advice?

[Nick - Cacher]

Planet, on 17 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Ugh. Not very pretty. Get a new container and show me the park. I can see electric boxes and light poles all the way to work every day.

Boring! Besides that, you already gave away the hide. Hey everybody! It's under the skirt!

What if I were to try a "Multi-Cache", which would make them go through different places of the park, and then end up there? Also, I've noticed that most people use 35mmm film canisters, lock and lock containers, and ammo cans as their cache containers. I was wondering about giving cachers a different type of container? Although magnetic fake switch plates aren't new, I was wondering if they would be more a bit of fresh air compared to the usual film canisters, match stick containers, or lock and locks? There's also still quite a few cachers who've never come across the magnetic switch plates.

Anyway, the main purpose would be to lure them to the park.

[Mr.Yuck]

Clan Riffster, on 17 April 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

knowschad, on 16 April 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

What is the maximum penalty for attaching one to a light post?

The same as attaching one to a USPS box. $0.00
If you can show me a case where someone paid a higher fine for sticking a magnetic hide-a-key to a R2D2 mailbox, I'll retract that.

Nick - Cacher, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Isn't that box property of the electric company?
If so, you'd need to get permission from them, not the park it resides in.

But having seen plenty of parking lot lamp posts and ugly power boxes in my lifetime, why not show me the actual park itself? I'm not afraid of burning the occasional calorie.

Mr.Yuck, on 16 April 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

From what I have seen, it is illegal to hide caches on USPS boxes

Source?
Just because Groundspeak tells their Reviewers to archive any caches found on USPS property, doesn't mean that the placement itself was a criminal act.

Oh, bad language on my part. I meant illegal under the Geocaching guidelines. I can find documentation that reviewers will not publish them, and will archive them if discovered: Post from Palmetto

Now don't quote me on this, but Canada Post? I believe they have actually contacted Groundspeak. But if I am correct in this belief, I saw it in a reveiewer's archive note, not here in the forums. And I seriously doubt I'll find the cache page, if it exists, where some random Canadian teenager dropped a keyholder on a mailbox.

[NYPaddleCacher]

Colonial Cats, on 17 April 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I get uncomfortable with all this archiving talk. I've seen some cachers become Geo-Police and create problems where none existed.

Who gets to decide whether a cache is causing a problem? The owner/finder of a geocache, or the land manager where it was placed?

[J the Goat]

Nick - Cacher, on 18 April 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

J the Goat, on 16 April 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

If your point is to bring people to the park, why not bring them into the park and not to the edge of the parking lot where they don't have to enter the park? Hide a good cache IN the park, and viola! Problem(s) solved.

I'm still a newbie, but I was wondering if creating a "Multi-Cache" with the final location hidden would be a good way to get them to go through the park? Then I could have the ending place be where that one picture is?

The reason why is it's a nice park, but I think there's a reason no one else has placed a geocache yet. The City Park is muggleville and is mostly open grass playing fields, playgrounds, swing sets, and bowery picnic table areas. In my first any only geocache I've placed, I put a "regular size" in a different park and people in their comments said "Thanks for taking me to the park, the kids liked the playground". However, there were plenty of shrubs and evergreens to hide it, but in this park I'm thinking of it's a nice park but none of those dense shrubs.

I'm also trying to get rid of my magnetic switch plate I bought, and can't send it back, so I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. Maybe since you've been geocaching for a while you'd have some advice?

One of the main issues I have with MSP's is that they don't tend to bring me to interesting places. They're common in parking lots, on the sides of building in alleys, and on electrical equipment, and in all honesty, I don't care about those places. They aren't weather resistant (adding plastic baggies DOES NOT help), they're in high muggle areas 99/100 times (I don't do this to try to sneak around in public), and there's a lot of validity to the arguments about fake electrical equipment/covers.

There may be other reasons for this park being devoid of caches. Maybe the city has a no geocaching in the parks kind of policy. Maybe there's no good places to hide a cache there. I still say that a light post in the parking lot fits the description of no good places to hide a cache. There may be an anti-geocaching maintainence worker who keeps an eye out for caches in "his" park and throws them away as they show up.

It's unfortunate that you can't return the switchplate. Can you use it to hide your own house key? It's also unfortunate that they don't make quality geocache containers for a multitude of reasons. I would say that your best bet is to cut your losses on the "container", find a good quality spot to hide a cache, and put out a good container for people to enjoy. You'll enjoy it more that way and there won't be nearly the amount of problems as there will be with a standard substandard parking lot hide.

Good luck.

[Clan Riffster]

Mr.Yuck, on 18 April 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Oh, bad language on my part. I meant illegal under the Geocaching guidelines. I can find documentation that reviewers will not publish them, and will archive them if discovered: Post from Palmetto

Now don't quote me on this, but Canada Post? I believe they have actually contacted Groundspeak. But if I am correct in this belief, I saw it in a reveiewer's archive note, not here in the forums. And I seriously doubt I'll find the cache page, if it exists, where some random Canadian teenager dropped a keyholder on a mailbox.

No doubt. I won't argue either point. I know my Reviewers will not knowingly publish one which resides on a mailbox. Presumably this decision came from someone in Seattle? Some Reviewers, in denying them or archiving them, will cite Federal law as the reason. That's the part I take umbrage with. Federal law does not prohibit them. Rather, I see it more as a known permission issue. Groundspeak has received notice that any cache placed on a mailbox is there without permission, and honors the property owner's wishes.

I just wish the Reviewers would show the same degree of latitude for other caches on private property, such as the eighty bajillion film cans stuck in business parking lots, and the 3,2 bajillion hide-a-keys stuck on power boxes.

[power69]

jhellwig, on 13 April 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

I would hide them in the bottom of a trash can and never speak of them again. I don't know why anyone would think that sticking fake electrical equipment on real electrical equipment would be a good idea but that seams to be the only place anyone hides them. I would find it much more interesting if they showed up on something that you would never expect it to be on. Kinda make it one of those caches that make you think "what in the world is that doing there?"

tried that a few different places. lasted maybe a month.

[Don_J]

Planet, on 18 April 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Magnets scratch paint with constant removal and replacement. Just don't put your fellow cacher in the position of being the one who gets caught. I just read a bunch of different articles and they all say mailboxes are for mail only and once placed, it is the property of the Federal Government. Do you want to tangle with them? Not me.

Actually, if it is obviously on a USPS mailbox, they didn't put me in a position to get caught. I place myself in that postion willingly, by grabbing it. Since I will not touch it, I'm in the clear.

All they did was waste my time and gas by bringing me to a mailbox.

[4wheelin_fool]

I found one inside of a mailbox. The cache was an plastic 8 x11 inch plastic envelope the same color as the mailbox on one side stuck to the inside top above the door with magnets. The other side was addressed to the cacher's PO box presumably if it got knocked down. Anyone mailing a letter would see it stuck up there, but not notice it. I thought it was funny, as it was a letter that was inside but never to be mailed. Eventually it did, however.

[Lieblweb]

So....a little twist on things....

What if a geocacher built a mailbox for the purpose of geocaching? It doesn't belong to the USPS. Doesn't have an address (although, it may appear to be an official mailbox). The post office can't legally tell you what to do (or not do) with your own property....

Just because its a mailbox doesn't mean its owned by the USPS (and/or not on USPS land).

[pnpure]

Lieblweb, on 19 April 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

So....a little twist on things....

What if a geocacher built a mailbox for the purpose of geocaching? It doesn't belong to the USPS. Doesn't have an address (although, it may appear to be an official mailbox). The post office can't legally tell you what to do (or not do) with your own property....

Just because its a mailbox doesn't mean its owned by the USPS (and/or not on USPS land).

Now that brings up an interesting question - You've built a convincing replica of a USPS drop box. I don't notice that this isn't genuine, and I put my mail inside it. The mail obviously doesn't get delivered because the USPS doesn't collect from this box, and you don't go empty it twice a day. Who's at fault? What are the legal ramifications? Do you have any liability for misdirected mail? Can you be charged with theft of US Mail? That's not something I'd like to test.

It sounds interesting, but I think I'd have to put it somewhere where it is obviously NOT a USPS mailbox, like out in the woods.

[Lieblweb]

pnpure, on 20 April 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Now that brings up an interesting question - You've built a convincing replica of a USPS drop box. I don't notice that this isn't genuine, and I put my mail inside it. The mail obviously doesn't get delivered because the USPS doesn't collect from this box, and you don't go empty it twice a day. Who's at fault? What are the legal ramifications? Do you have any liability for misdirected mail? Can you be charged with theft of US Mail? That's not something I'd like to test.

It sounds interesting, but I think I'd have to put it somewhere where it is obviously NOT a USPS mailbox, like out in the woods.

The questions you ask - have nothing to do with a 'fake' mailbox. The mail carriers know their routes and the post office knows where the boxes are. But even so - each and every mailbox has its own 'OWNER' and they're not necessarily owned by the USPS.

I don't think the USPS cares about the mailboxes themselves.... it's the tampering of the mail inside that's a federal offense.

Searching for a geocache around a mailbox (and looking suspicious) isn't any different than looking for a geocache anywhere in urban areas (and looking suspicious). Looking suspicious will prompt complaints that might get the po-po on sight.

[fuzziebear3]

I think there is a confusion here on 'mailbox' too.

The OP is talking about the blue drop boxes. Those are owned by the postal service, and apparently you are not allowed to put a cache on them. (Seems fine to me, I don't think it would be all that exciting of a cache anyway).

Other personal mailboxes, like the one at your house perhaps, belong to the home/property owner, although you still are not supposed to put stuff in them other than postal mail. (And still wouldn't really be an exciting cache.)

But sure, if you want to go to your favorite home store and buy a mailbox and use it as a cache container, you certainly could do that. And finding a mailbox in the woods would be quite a fun cache, and within the guidelines.

[power69]

AZcachemeister, on 13 April 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

Anywhere you can find a flat steel surface is fair game.
The best place is somewhere that such a plate would never really be put, so the cachers will know what it is right away.

yeah. paint the plate brown and find a walmart parking lot!

[power69]

AZcachemeister, on 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

The penalty for tampering with a postal mail collection device is a fine of $20,000 and one year in FEDERAL prison. Attaching any unapproved device to the mailbox is tampering with the mailbox.
Unlikely that you would get the maximum penalty just for hiding a cache, but I don't want to be a test case.

BTW, the penalty extends to anyone who knows about the 'device' but didn't report it, and you just signed a logbook to prove you were there?

Try $250,000 and minimum 5 years in federal prison.

[power69]

fuzziebear3, on 20 April 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I think there is a confusion here on 'mailbox' too.

The OP is talking about the blue drop boxes. Those are owned by the postal service, and apparently you are not allowed to put a cache on them. (Seems fine to me, I don't think it would be all that exciting of a cache anyway).

Other personal mailboxes, like the one at your house perhaps, belong to the home/property owner, although you still are not supposed to put stuff in them other than postal mail. (And still wouldn't really be an exciting cache.)

But sure, if you want to go to your favorite home store and buy a mailbox and use it as a cache container, you certainly could do that. And finding a mailbox in the woods would be quite a fun cache, and within the guidelines.

ANYTHING that says "us mail" on it[even if you bought it at walmart is FED OFFENSE once installed]

[Glenn]

power69, on 21 April 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

AZcachemeister, on 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

The penalty for tampering with a postal mail collection device is a fine of $20,000 and one year in FEDERAL prison. Attaching any unapproved device to the mailbox is tampering with the mailbox.
Unlikely that you would get the maximum penalty just for hiding a cache, but I don't want to be a test case.

BTW, the penalty extends to anyone who knows about the 'device' but didn't report it, and you just signed a logbook to prove you were there?

Try $250,000 and minimum 5 years in federal prison.

Where did you find this information? I've found where it says that you can be fined but it didn't list what the maximum penalties were.

[tozainamboku]

Clan Riffster, on 17 April 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

knowschad, on 16 April 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

What is the maximum penalty for attaching one to a light post?

The same as attaching one to a USPS box. $0.00
If you can show me a case where someone paid a higher fine for sticking a magnetic hide-a-key to a R2D2 mailbox, I'll retract that.

I believe the difference in that on at least one occasion a postmaster wrote Groundspeak tell them that cache had been found on a mailbox and the it had been placed without permission. The postmaster apparently indicated that permission to place a cache on a mailbox is unlikely to ever be granted. Reviewers are probably told to assume that there was no permission when a cache is found on a mailbox.

It's likely that a utility company or property owner has written Groundspeak to indicate that a cache was found on a utility boz or lamppost that was placed without permission as well. However, unlike the postmaster, this time the property owners could only speak for their lamppost or utility box. In addition Groundspeak is aware of caches placed on these items with permission. So reviewers assume that the cache has adequate permission unless they here otherwise. Some reviewers may have knowledge of local utilities who have found caches on their equipment and indicated a permission issue and will not knowingly publish caches placed on that company's equipment.

[Lieblweb]

power69, on 21 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

ANYTHING that says "us mail" on it[even if you bought it at walmart is FED OFFENSE once installed]

How is that possible? Illegal to install a mailbox purchased from Walmart?

The fact it has US MAIL on it, probably only means it meets USPS standards to be a mailbox. You can't just build anything and make it into a mailbox - you have to get it approved by the USPS.

Here's a domestic mail manual in case someone is really bored and wants to poke around in there.
http://pe.usps.com/t...300_landing.htm

[power69]

knowschad, on 16 April 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Nick - Cacher, on 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Do you think I should use one of these two places for the switch plate, or try hiding in the park a completely different way?

Switch plates are commonplace. Instead, see that cover plate lower down, on the righthand side? Fake one of those up and you'll have something unique!

yeah and the plate sticks out without being painted brown.

[power69]

Lieblweb, on 21 April 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

power69, on 21 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

ANYTHING that says "us mail" on it[even if you bought it at walmart is FED OFFENSE once installed]

How is that possible? Illegal to install a mailbox purchased from Walmart?

The fact it has US MAIL on it, probably only means it meets USPS standards to be a mailbox. You can't just build anything and make it into a mailbox - you have to get it approved by the USPS.

Here's a domestic mail manual in case someone is really bored and wants to poke around in there.
http://pe.usps.com/t...300_landing.htm

I mean placing something like a magnetic cache on a mailbox[even ones bought at walmart]

[power69]

tozainamboku, on 21 April 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Clan Riffster, on 17 April 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

knowschad, on 16 April 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

What is the maximum penalty for attaching one to a light post?

The same as attaching one to a USPS box. $0.00
If you can show me a case where someone paid a higher fine for sticking a magnetic hide-a-key to a R2D2 mailbox, I'll retract that.

I believe the difference in that on at least one occasion a postmaster wrote Groundspeak tell them that cache had been found on a mailbox and the it had been placed without permission. The postmaster apparently indicated that permission to place a cache on a mailbox is unlikely to ever be granted. Reviewers are probably told to assume that there was no permission when a cache is found on a mailbox.

It's likely that a utility company or property owner has written Groundspeak to indicate that a cache was found on a utility boz or lamppost that was placed without permission as well. However, unlike the postmaster, this time the property owners could only speak for their lamppost or utility box. In addition Groundspeak is aware of caches placed on these items with permission. So reviewers assume that the cache has adequate permission unless they here otherwise. Some reviewers may have knowledge of local utilities who have found caches on their equipment and indicated a permission issue and will not knowingly publish caches placed on that company's equipment.

utility boxes however aren't FEDERAL PROPERTY!

[power69]

Glenn, on 21 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

power69, on 21 April 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

AZcachemeister, on 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

The penalty for tampering with a postal mail collection device is a fine of $20,000 and one year in FEDERAL prison. Attaching any unapproved device to the mailbox is tampering with the mailbox.
Unlikely that you would get the maximum penalty just for hiding a cache, but I don't want to be a test case.

BTW, the penalty extends to anyone who knows about the 'device' but didn't report it, and you just signed a logbook to prove you were there?

Try $250,000 and minimum 5 years in federal prison.

Where did you find this information? I've found where it says that you can be fined but it didn't list what the maximum penalties were.

On the R2D2 box I put my electric bill into each month.
"Placing unauthorised items on or in this container are a federal offense punishable of fines up to $250,000 and or minimum 5 years in a federal prison"

[Glenn]

power69, on 22 April 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Glenn, on 21 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

power69, on 21 April 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

AZcachemeister, on 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Chokecherry, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Glenn, on 15 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

SwineFlew, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Found one under a USPS drop off box yesterday. A big no-no.

How so?

USPS boxes are private property of the USPS.

The penalty for tampering with a postal mail collection device is a fine of $20,000 and one year in FEDERAL prison. Attaching any unapproved device to the mailbox is tampering with the mailbox.
Unlikely that you would get the maximum penalty just for hiding a cache, but I don't want to be a test case.

BTW, the penalty extends to anyone who knows about the 'device' but didn't report it, and you just signed a logbook to prove you were there?

Try $250,000 and minimum 5 years in federal prison.

Where did you find this information? I've found where it says that you can be fined but it didn't list what the maximum penalties were.

On the R2D2 box I put my electric bill into each month.
"Placing unauthorised items on or in this container are a federal offense punishable of fines up to $250,000 and or minimum 5 years in a federal prison"

You would think this information would be on the internet somewhere. However this is the best that I could do. http://www.uspsoig.g..._mail_theft.htm At the bottom of that page is a story about the destruction of mail not mailboxes. It states that the punishmnet is up to 5 years in prison and/or a $250,000 fine. It's strange but I can't find anything specific about a mailbox fines.

[Glenn]

power69, on 22 April 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

tozainamboku, on 21 April 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Clan Riffster, on 17 April 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

knowschad, on 16 April 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

What is the maximum penalty for attaching one to a light post?

The same as attaching one to a USPS box. $0.00
If you can show me a case where someone paid a higher fine for sticking a magnetic hide-a-key to a R2D2 mailbox, I'll retract that.

I believe the difference in that on at least one occasion a postmaster wrote Groundspeak tell them that cache had been found on a mailbox and the it had been placed without permission. The postmaster apparently indicated that permission to place a cache on a mailbox is unlikely to ever be granted. Reviewers are probably told to assume that there was no permission when a cache is found on a mailbox.

It's likely that a utility company or property owner has written Groundspeak to indicate that a cache was found on a utility boz or lamppost that was placed without permission as well. However, unlike the postmaster, this time the property owners could only speak for their lamppost or utility box. In addition Groundspeak is aware of caches placed on these items with permission. So reviewers assume that the cache has adequate permission unless they here otherwise. Some reviewers may have knowledge of local utilities who have found caches on their equipment and indicated a permission issue and will not knowingly publish caches placed on that company's equipment.

utility boxes however aren't FEDERAL PROPERTY!

But they are private property requiring permission to be granted from the property owner/manager.

[tozainamboku]

power69, on 22 April 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

utility boxes however aren't FEDERAL PROPERTY!

I own several caches on FEDERAL PROPERTY. The issue isn't whether something is Federal property, state property, municipal property, or private property. The issue is whether there is adequate permission for placing a cache. Groundspeak has been told by at least one postmaster that permission is never given to place a geocache on a blue mail collection box. While that postmaster may have quoted federal laws or regulation about tampering with the mail to justify this position, these laws are not the reason such caches are not allowed. Permission is the reason.

[Clan Riffster]

power69, on 22 April 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

On the R2D2 box I put my electric bill into each month.
"Placing unauthorised items on or in this container are a federal offense punishable of fines up to $250,000 and or minimum 5 years in a federal prison"

A decal slapped on a mailbox does not necessarily mean that the statement on the decal is accurate. The decal on your R2D2 mailbox is a perfect example of this. Sticking a hide-a-key on the bottom of a USPS R2D2 mailbox is not a Federal offense, since it does not equate to tampering or injuring.

[Clan Riffster]

tozainamboku, on 21 April 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

In addition Groundspeak is aware of caches placed on these items with permission.

Shouldn't that statement be preceded by, "Once upon a time"?

tozainamboku, on 21 April 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

So reviewers assume that the cache has adequate permission unless they here otherwise.

Wouldn't it be easier if the Reviewers just enforced the guidelines?

1.1. Fundamental Placement Guidelines
2. Obtain the landowner's permission before you hide any geocache on private property. If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of the reviewer and those seeking the cache.

[4wheelin_fool]

USPS will probably not prosecute unless there is an attempt to steal mail. They are going broke anyway.

In Ft Lauderdale there was a few mailboxes i came across that we're overflowing with mail, to the point that anyone could snatch something.