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Geocaching Labs: Mega-Event Caches Not your typical release note

#101 User is offline   releasethedogs 

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:24 PM

View Postcezanne, on 21 August 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

. My motivation for geocaching is certainly not socializing.

Really? You're socializing right now, on this forum.

#102 User is offline   tozainamboku 

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:46 PM

See what I get by not reading the release notes. I've been participating in the discussion in the general topics forum - wondering why there was so little interest and also wondering where the lackeys were.

I don't know if they will be back on Monday or if they have tired already of explaining the rationale for having these caches.

I think they have done a fairly good job so far, but clearly the geocaching puritans are going to object to something they have been taught is not a cache. The guideline long ago dealt with cache permanence and with ALRs like code word logging. And we also see the objections over commercialism in the brewery labs. So it really takes some explaining why lab caches are not subject to the rules Groundspeak has be telling us for so long.

In addition there is a gut reaction to counting things in the find count. We have heard Jeremy tell us not to get our knickers in a twist because of how someone defines a find. Yet the idea that Groundspeak promotes something that is not quite a geocache by telling people it counts as find, it a bit hard to follow. I guess it's not important what you count, just that it counts. I suspect that there will be more than few who will participate in lab caches and just not log them (as they are not caches) - if only we could make August souvenirs go away as easily.

I agree with those who express disappointment that Geocaching has become about collecting souvenirs and getting higher find counts instead of finding caches and discovering new places. I understand however that your market research may say just that. I can only hope that whatever cockamamie ideas come out of Geocaching Labs, the old standby of interesting and fun caches that we can do on our own or informal outings with friends will remain. And while the Groundspeak developers struggle to fix the glitches in the new lab caches, they may find some time to work other aspects of the website that benefit the rest of us.

#103 User is offline   cezanne 

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:26 PM

View Postreleasethedogs, on 23 August 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

View Postcezanne, on 21 August 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

. My motivation for geocaching is certainly not socializing.

Really? You're socializing right now, on this forum.


But I'm not geocaching on this forum.

#104 User is offline   Tiskar94 

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 10:57 AM

I can not understand it.
You created Labs, because you want feedback. Most people who are going to Geocoinfest in CZ are looking forward to Lab caches and... now i see "Geocaching Labs is By Invitation"?
So did you want really feedback, or just known views of yours invited friends?

#105 User is offline   thomfre 

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:36 PM

View PostTiskar94, on 25 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I can not understand it.
You created Labs, because you want feedback. Most people who are going to Geocoinfest in CZ are looking forward to Lab caches and... now i see "Geocaching Labs is By Invitation"?
So did you want really feedback, or just known views of yours invited friends?


Relax, they'll probably invite everyone that's attending Geocoinfest, just like they did on the Block Party...

#106 User is offline   TheWinterTrio 

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:13 PM

View Postthomfre, on 25 August 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

View PostTiskar94, on 25 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I can not understand it.
You created Labs, because you want feedback. Most people who are going to Geocoinfest in CZ are looking forward to Lab caches and... now i see "Geocaching Labs is By Invitation"?
So did you want really feedback, or just known views of yours invited friends?


Relax, they'll probably invite everyone that's attending Geocoinfest, just like they did on the Block Party...


I attended the Block Party and did a number of the Lab Caches, but I don't seem to have gotten an "invitation" to anything... Unless the ability to do the Block Party Lab Caches counts as an "Invitation"....

-TWT

#107 User is offline   tumbleweed2 

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostTheWinterTrio, on 25 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

View Postthomfre, on 25 August 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

View PostTiskar94, on 25 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I can not understand it.
You created Labs, because you want feedback. Most people who are going to Geocoinfest in CZ are looking forward to Lab caches and... now i see "Geocaching Labs is By Invitation"?
So did you want really feedback, or just known views of yours invited friends?


Relax, they'll probably invite everyone that's attending Geocoinfest, just like they did on the Block Party...


I attended the Block Party and did a number of the Lab Caches, but I don't seem to have gotten an "invitation" to anything... Unless the ability to do the Block Party Lab Caches counts as an "Invitation"....

-TWT

I also found all 5 of the Lab caches of the Brewery type during the Block Party, and had them entered into my GPS, downloaded via your posted GPX file . Now that I get home to my computer, I can find no way to log them. Help please.

#108 User is offline   thomfre 

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 05:24 AM

View Posttumbleweed2, on 25 August 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I also found all 5 of the Lab caches of the Brewery type during the Block Party, and had them entered into my GPS, downloaded via your posted GPX file . Now that I get home to my computer, I can find no way to log them. Help please.

You had to log them before they expired, if you didn't, I don't think you'll ever be able to log them...

I have created a separate thread with requests for lab caches: http://forums.Ground...howtopic=314794

#109 User is offline   tumbleweed2 

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:19 AM

Oh, I thought you just couldn't FIND them after that week. Rats! So much for cell phones that don't work when you need them to!

#110 User is offline   tozainamboku 

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:23 PM

View Postthomfre, on 26 August 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

View Posttumbleweed2, on 25 August 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I also found all 5 of the Lab caches of the Brewery type during the Block Party, and had them entered into my GPS, downloaded via your posted GPX file . Now that I get home to my computer, I can find no way to log them. Help please.

You had to log them before they expired, if you didn't, I don't think you'll ever be able to log them...

I have created a separate thread with requests for lab caches: http://forums.Ground...howtopic=314794

I don't think TPTB have provided much of a rationale for all the restrictions on logging of lab caches or for not counting them in certain statistics.

My speculation is that this is supposed to prevent abuse (i.e. people sharing the codes so their friends can get the icon, even though they didn't attend the mega-event or participate in the lab caches). However, doing this before there is any evidence that they will be widely abused, makes it seem that these rules are nothing other than knickers-in-a-twist prevention for some people. They are cetainly going to frustrate some people who attended the event and did the caches but now can't log them because they waited to long to do so.

#111 User is offline   Masterchef 

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:19 AM

The lab caches are not visible in my profile.
Is it a bug a does it stay this way?

Masterchef

#112 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:57 AM

View PostMasterchef, on 27 August 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

The lab caches are not visible in my profile.
Is it a bug a does it stay this way?

Masterchef


I see yours and I see mine.

#113 User is offline   Redn3ck 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:30 AM

Hello was wondering i attended the HMGT Mega this weekend and did the 5 lab caches, but i dont have a smart phone, where do i log these?

#114 User is offline   billkat 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:02 AM

View Postlamoracke, on 27 August 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

View PostMasterchef, on 27 August 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

The lab caches are not visible in my profile.
Is it a bug a does it stay this way?

Masterchef


I see yours and I see mine.


#115 User is offline   billkat 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:03 AM

I do not see yours and I do not see mine. I thought that would be fixed. My benchmarks do not show up as an icon either.

#116 User is offline   Toa Norik 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:07 AM

Somebody have the GPX-file for the "Explore the block"-labs? I want to download that file in my GSAK database for having correct finds. I have the brewery, but not the "block"-labs.
Somebody that can help?

#117 User is offline   billkat 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:10 AM

View Postbillkat, on 01 September 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 27 August 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

View PostMasterchef, on 27 August 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

The lab caches are not visible in my profile.
Is it a bug a does it stay this way?

Masterchef


I see yours and I see mine.


I don't see either of yours icons and I don't see my icon or for that matter my benchmark icon either

#118 User is offline   billkat 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:14 AM

View PostDr. House, on 16 August 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

View PostOpinioNate, on 16 August 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Regarding your first question, it's yet to be decided how (or even if; it needs to succeed as a concept first) Labs will fully integrate with the rest of Geocaching.com, so all those things you mentioned will come into being when they are ready, and not before. The goal of a Lab Cache will always be to "graduate" to real geocaching. That is when you would start seeing them on a map.

As for the second, it displays in the statistics tab as other cache types do. Once we fix the display bug you'll be able to view other cacher's stats tab and see for yourself (to be released next week).


Thanks Nate!

Still don't see it and is has been a couple weeks.

#119 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:22 AM

View PostRedn3ck, on 01 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Hello was wondering i attended the HMGT Mega this weekend and did the 5 lab caches, but i dont have a smart phone, where do i log these?


They were only available to log for a 4 day time period if I recall correctly, I do not believe there is any mechanism to log them anymore. A smart phone was not required to log them, they could have been logged via a laptop, desktop, whatever, as well, but just had to be logged in that time period.

#120 User is offline   Redn3ck 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:27 AM

View Postlamoracke, on 01 September 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

View PostRedn3ck, on 01 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Hello was wondering i attended the HMGT Mega this weekend and did the 5 lab caches, but i dont have a smart phone, where do i log these?


They were only available to log for a 4 day time period if I recall correctly, I do not believe there is any mechanism to log them anymore. A smart phone was not required to log them, they could have been logged via a laptop, desktop, whatever, as well, but just had to be logged in that time period.



the event was yesterday....

#121 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:43 AM

View PostRedn3ck, on 01 September 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 01 September 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

View PostRedn3ck, on 01 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Hello was wondering i attended the HMGT Mega this weekend and did the 5 lab caches, but i dont have a smart phone, where do i log these?


They were only available to log for a 4 day time period if I recall correctly, I do not believe there is any mechanism to log them anymore. A smart phone was not required to log them, they could have been logged via a laptop, desktop, whatever, as well, but just had to be logged in that time period.



the event was yesterday....


Oh, am sorry, I thought you were speaking of the block party, did not realize they were already out there for a 2nd event now. My bad.

#122 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:47 AM

Ah, I see they had some labs at that event, cool they did them so quickly after the block party. There were 5 there. Perhaps ask someone who logged them.

#123 User is offline   Redn3ck 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:50 AM

found it now nvm thanks anyway

#124 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:58 AM

Yep, https://labs.geocach...6c-6dcf777a217d

#125 User is offline   ThorScouts 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:05 AM

It seems that the opinions on this is very mixed, but that makes sense. At a recent Geocaching presentation at a the WV Civil War Trail Event, the presenter talked about how Geocaching is evolving and has aspects that appeal to all sorts of people. Geocaching is what YOU want it to be ... whether you are only interested in 5/5's, you like finding earthcaches, you want to find interesting containers, or you never want your shoes to leave pavement.

From a family with two kids, we would like to say we enjoyed the Lab Caches yesterday at the Hatfield McCoy MegaEvent. While the organizers have put two AMAZING permanent trails in place (the Hatfield/McCoy Trail and the Hog Trail), we participated in finding some of the trail caches and all 5 Lab Caches yesterday. We went to this event over Labor Day weekend and had a great time meeting new people and checking out the vendors. While we casually enjoyed our lunch, the kids played on the playground, made new friends, and got completely filthy in the mud. We were not there to necessarily find 145 caches on the trails on that particular day. The 5 lab caches were close to the event, brought us to very interesting places (the flood wall and the HM Street sign being our favorites), and provided us with an "accomplishment" for the day that wasn't overwhelming and allowed us to enjoy the other event festivities as well.

I've seen arguments that these caches should just be made permanent caches that remain in place by the event organizers rather than being temporary lab caches. If this were the case, we would not have been able to enjoy these caches and seeing these historical sites yesterday because (1) some of these spots had other traditional caches within 528 feet (2) some of these caches were within 528 feet of each other. I'm glad they made exceptions to normal GC rules for this event because (1) we were able to see pieces of history without the Event Organizers having to convince another GC member to deactivate a nearby EGG and (2) sometimes historical places happen to be closer than 528 feet away from each other.

So, while others may have different opinions, which they are certainly entitled to, I would like to just say for the record that our family of 4, who attended the Mega Event yesterday and participated in the Lab Cache, enjoyed the caches, the history, and the photos we took at these cool places. Thank you. :)

#126 User is offline   ThorScouts 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:17 AM

View PostRedn3ck, on 01 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Hello was wondering i attended the HMGT Mega this weekend and did the 5 lab caches, but i dont have a smart phone, where do i log these?


I was at the event and wasn't sure where to log them either. I found the link in one of the event announcements that was posted by Lackey Grillography on 8/29/13. Here is the link. It worked for us. We were able to log all 5. They show up in your profile afterwards as Lab Cache finds and it updates your total finds, but they don't show up individually on your list of found caches yet. That's a bug they are still working on from what I understand.

http://bit.ly/178Hj2S

Once you log all 5, a big hog shows up on your screen congratulating you for finding them. Good luck!

#127 User is offline   Don_J 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:48 AM

View PostToa Norik, on 01 September 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Somebody have the GPX-file for the "Explore the block"-labs? I want to download that file in my GSAK database for having correct finds. I have the brewery, but not the "block"-labs.
Somebody that can help?


Here is a custom GPX for the block party Lab caches that is designed to import into GSAK in a way that GSAK and the Find stats macro understand.

http://gsak.net/boar...=post&id=194896

This post has been edited by Don_J: 01 September 2013 - 09:51 AM


#128 User is offline   tozainamboku 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:37 AM

View PostThorScouts, on 01 September 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I've seen arguments that these caches should just be made permanent caches that remain in place by the event organizers rather than being temporary lab caches. If this were the case, we would not have been able to enjoy these caches and seeing these historical sites yesterday because (1) some of these spots had other traditional caches within 528 feet (2) some of these caches were within 528 feet of each other. I'm glad they made exceptions to normal GC rules for this event because (1) we were able to see pieces of history without the Event Organizers having to convince another GC member to deactivate a nearby EGG and (2) sometimes historical places happen to be closer than 528 feet away from each other.

The issue of proximity could easily be be solved by making this a mulit-cache. Even where there was an historic location too close to an existing cache, that could have been a virtual stage in a multi-cache. If proximity were the only reason these couldn't be permanent caches then the real reason for making them lab-cache was because the even organizers didn't want make these multi-caches. As you stated, geocaching appeals to all sorts of people. Some clearly don't like multi-caches. For hiders, there is more more work involved in both setup and a maintenance, and for finders these are more difficult, take more time, and perhaps have a higher rate of DNF.

IMO, lab-caches address one problem. Temporary cache already exist at many events. Sometimes they get listed on GC.com - the hiders claim they are permanent but they archive them either at the end of the event or as soon as a DNF is logged. Other times they are not not listed but event owners either allow multiple attend logs or find another way to acknowledge finders. TBTB have created this new cache type to allow certain mega events a new way to handle temporary event caches - without listing them as regular caches yet still allowing a way to count them in he find count. AFAIAC they have "solved" a problem that geocachers had long ago found ways to deal with. Brilliant. Now go solve some problems that really need solving.

#129 User is offline   Don_J 

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:01 PM

View Posttozainamboku, on 01 September 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

View PostThorScouts, on 01 September 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I've seen arguments that these caches should just be made permanent caches that remain in place by the event organizers rather than being temporary lab caches. If this were the case, we would not have been able to enjoy these caches and seeing these historical sites yesterday because (1) some of these spots had other traditional caches within 528 feet (2) some of these caches were within 528 feet of each other. I'm glad they made exceptions to normal GC rules for this event because (1) we were able to see pieces of history without the Event Organizers having to convince another GC member to deactivate a nearby EGG and (2) sometimes historical places happen to be closer than 528 feet away from each other.

The issue of proximity could easily be be solved by making this a mulit-cache. Even where there was an historic location too close to an existing cache, that could have been a virtual stage in a multi-cache. If proximity were the only reason these couldn't be permanent caches then the real reason for making them lab-cache was because the even organizers didn't want make these multi-caches. As you stated, geocaching appeals to all sorts of people. Some clearly don't like multi-caches. For hiders, there is more more work involved in both setup and a maintenance, and for finders these are more difficult, take more time, and perhaps have a higher rate of DNF.

IMO, lab-caches address one problem. Temporary cache already exist at many events. Sometimes they get listed on GC.com - the hiders claim they are permanent but they archive them either at the end of the event or as soon as a DNF is logged. Other times they are not not listed but event owners either allow multiple attend logs or find another way to acknowledge finders. TBTB have created this new cache type to allow certain mega events a new way to handle temporary event caches - without listing them as regular caches yet still allowing a way to count them in he find count. AFAIAC they have "solved" a problem that geocachers had long ago found ways to deal with. Brilliant. Now go solve some problems that really need solving.


But the problem they created far outweighs their solution. These new cache finds are added to the find count and put in the totals list, but can't be quantified on any other part of the website, most importantly, a My Finds PQ. People can't list them, they can't include them in third party stats, and then after they are locked, they can't even bail out by deleting their logs because they have no access to them.

And as usual, when people voice their concerns about this, silence.

#130 User is offline   akgh519 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 06:51 AM

I completed the lab that was part of the HMGT Mega. It was fun to complete and I would like to see it a part of the future of geocaching. Would be nice to be able to access the 'find' as noted in this forum. Either way, I see the value of this concept and hope it continues!

#131 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:06 AM

I imagine the Lilypad will fix these Lab caches to have them show up in 3rd party stats. I have them in mine at the moment thanks to some GPX files, I just do not know how to get the icon to show up in GSAK but that is up to them to do that. They are still new.

Yes, perhaps they will even allow the ability to "bail out" on them. Some folks just had to delete their finds on Challenges and did so later. I just hope they put more energy into fixing the lab issues than they did with the Challenges. At least these have a name which does not have confusion.

#132 User is offline   fitbobcat 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:38 AM

Can someone please invite me to the labs.geocaching.com website?

#133 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:45 AM

You do not need to be invited, you just have to have the links where the current lab ones are. There are links to the Kentucky Mega labs above. Usually you can find the links on the mega event in question somewhere.

#134 User is offline   JJnTJ 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:12 AM

View PostDon_J, on 01 September 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

And as usual, when people voice their concerns about this, silence.


Have faith. Within three months they will have fixed about half of the issues. Then they'll abandon it completely in favor of whatever shiny new thing comes along. Then you will get total silence about it from the frog.

I have nothing against Labs, or any shiny new things. I think it's great they're exploring ideas. But I wish they'd keep working on things instead of abandoning them in place.

#135 User is offline   jellis 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:16 AM

View Postfitbobcat, on 02 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Can someone please invite me to the labs.geocaching.com website?

Not sure what you mean by invite. You log in with the same login name and password as the geocaching site. Are you having trouble>

#136 User is offline   jellis 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:21 AM

Oops I guess when you aren't doing one you can't. I got the same message. I can't even see the ones I did at the Block Party anymore.

This post has been edited by jellis: 02 September 2013 - 08:22 AM


#137 User is offline   tozainamboku 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostDon_J, on 01 September 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

But the problem they created far outweighs their solution. These new cache finds are added to the find count and put in the totals list, but can't be quantified on any other part of the website, most importantly, a My Finds PQ. People can't list them, they can't include them in third party stats, and then after they are locked, they can't even bail out by deleting their logs because they have no access to them.

And as usual, when people voice their concerns about this, silence.

I'm not sure that this is really a problem. It looks like geocaches are getting around some of the issues by exchanging GPX files and making updates to third party stats programs.

The statistics minded need to realize that while they count in the find count, the lab caches are different from other caches in an important way. Prior to labs caches there were two types of entities you could track on Groundspeak's websites: geocaches (which include events, webcams, virtuals, locationless, GPS adventure maze, Wherigo caches, and more) and non-geocaches (benchmarks, waymarks, Wherigo cartridges, etc.). The defunct challenges also fell into this non-geocache category, though there was talk when they were first announced of counting them as finds.

From a simple view, those things that are "geocaches" are part of the Geocaching.com database. You can search them, map them, get pocket queries, and compute statistics on items in this database. The "non-geocaches" are not listed in this database and instead live in one of several alternate databases. It is a significant programming and IT problem to provide search, map, pocket query, and statistic across things that reside in different databases with different schema. While there are some solutions, these them may be beyond what Groundspeak is willing to spend in money and effort.

What lab caches have done, was something that was suggested and rejected several times in the past. And that is to count something that is not in the main geocaching.com database in your find count.

As long as there has been a find count is was a simple query run against the geocache database to count the number of found it logs (later expanded to included attended and webcam photo take logs). With the chimera of lab caches, we have something that is neither a cache and nor not-a-cache. It may just take some time getting use to this new kind of item and adjust one's expectation as to what you can do with them.

#138 User is offline   Don_J 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 01:53 PM

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I imagine the Lilypad will fix these Lab caches to have them show up in 3rd party stats. I have them in mine at the moment thanks to some GPX files, I just do not know how to get the icon to show up in GSAK but that is up to them to do that. They are still new.

Yes, perhaps they will even allow the ability to "bail out" on them. Some folks just had to delete their finds on Challenges and did so later. I just hope they put more energy into fixing the lab issues than they did with the Challenges. At least these have a name which does not have confusion.


You "imagine", somebody else "heard a rumor", but the point is, there has been no official comment on this.

Until it becomes an official cache type that is included in the standard GPX file, with an indexed number assigned to it, GSAK's developer will not add the icon. This is consistent with the way that he has handled other new cache types like the L&F Event and Block Party.

#139 User is offline   lamoracke 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 01:56 PM

View PostDon_J, on 02 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I imagine the Lilypad will fix these Lab caches to have them show up in 3rd party stats. I have them in mine at the moment thanks to some GPX files, I just do not know how to get the icon to show up in GSAK but that is up to them to do that. They are still new.

Yes, perhaps they will even allow the ability to "bail out" on them. Some folks just had to delete their finds on Challenges and did so later. I just hope they put more energy into fixing the lab issues than they did with the Challenges. At least these have a name which does not have confusion.


You "imagine", somebody else "heard a rumor", but the point is, there has been no official comment on this.

Until it becomes an official cache type that is included in the standard GPX file, with an indexed number assigned to it, GSAK's developer will not add the icon. This is consistent with the way that he has handled other new cache types like the L&F Event and Block Party.


Well, some of us did talk to some lackeys at the Block Party (and even Jeremy) which gave hope that these things are just getting off the ground and hopefully it will be fixed some day.

#140 User is offline   Keystone 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 02:13 PM

I also talked to Lackeys while attending Block Party.

If "temporary caches that can bend some of the guidelines to make event caches more fun" is a concept that proves itself in the "Laboratory," then eventually we might see a brand new cache type, called "Temporary Event Geocache" or something. The Temporary Event Geocache would have rules and guidelines associated with it, based on what was learned in the Laboratory. And since it would then be a full-fledged geocache type, Temporary Event Geocaches would appear in pocket queries, would count for statistics, etc., in addition to counting as finds.

Meanwhile, any similar caches found as "Lab Caches" would remain as Lab Caches in the finder's profile, meaning limited connections to statistics, pocket queries, maps, etc. They would not convert over when the new permanent cache type was introduced.

And, next year or the year after, we might see an entirely different concept, say, Fox and Hound caches, that would begin their lifetime as Lab Caches.

That is what I took away from (1) my conversations with the Lackeys, and (2) the information provided in writing to Block Party attendees. I made a conscious decision that it would be more important to try the Lab Caches (and add the icon for them to my profile) than to keep my statistics 100% accurate.

#141 User is offline   jholly 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 03:09 PM

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

View PostDon_J, on 02 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I imagine the Lilypad will fix these Lab caches to have them show up in 3rd party stats. I have them in mine at the moment thanks to some GPX files, I just do not know how to get the icon to show up in GSAK but that is up to them to do that. They are still new.

Yes, perhaps they will even allow the ability to "bail out" on them. Some folks just had to delete their finds on Challenges and did so later. I just hope they put more energy into fixing the lab issues than they did with the Challenges. At least these have a name which does not have confusion.


You "imagine", somebody else "heard a rumor", but the point is, there has been no official comment on this.

Until it becomes an official cache type that is included in the standard GPX file, with an indexed number assigned to it, GSAK's developer will not add the icon. This is consistent with the way that he has handled other new cache types like the L&F Event and Block Party.


Well, some of us did talk to some lackeys at the Block Party (and even Jeremy) which gave hope that these things are just getting off the ground and hopefully it will be fixed some day.

Wherigo. I rest my case.

#142 User is offline   Don_J 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 03:12 PM

View Postjholly, on 02 September 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

View PostDon_J, on 02 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I imagine the Lilypad will fix these Lab caches to have them show up in 3rd party stats. I have them in mine at the moment thanks to some GPX files, I just do not know how to get the icon to show up in GSAK but that is up to them to do that. They are still new.

Yes, perhaps they will even allow the ability to "bail out" on them. Some folks just had to delete their finds on Challenges and did so later. I just hope they put more energy into fixing the lab issues than they did with the Challenges. At least these have a name which does not have confusion.


You "imagine", somebody else "heard a rumor", but the point is, there has been no official comment on this.

Until it becomes an official cache type that is included in the standard GPX file, with an indexed number assigned to it, GSAK's developer will not add the icon. This is consistent with the way that he has handled other new cache types like the L&F Event and Block Party.


Well, some of us did talk to some lackeys at the Block Party (and even Jeremy) which gave hope that these things are just getting off the ground and hopefully it will be fixed some day.

Wherigo. I rest my case.


My Friends agree.

#143 User is offline   tozainamboku 

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostKeystone, on 02 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Meanwhile, any similar caches found as "Lab Caches" would remain as Lab Caches in the finder's profile, meaning limited connections to statistics, pocket queries, maps, etc. They would not convert over when the new permanent cache type was introduced.

It'a all well and good for Groundspeak to have a sandbox for experimental ideas separate from the main geocaching database and certain parts of the website API. However when they start "counting" these experiments as finds that sends a mixed message. Are these something experimental or are they "official" caches.

The real experiment here is counting the finds. That was apparently what some Lackeys wanted to do with the defunct challenges. Perhaps if challenges had counted in the find count they would have succeeded instead of being declared a mistake.

It may be that the lab caches are a "better mistake" than challenges. It may be that the need for officially recording temporary event caches will be accepted by more geocachers than those who thought going to a location and performing a task was a way to deal with the locations where they might have wanted to place a virtual cache. But now we will always wonder if the difference between a mistake and good idea is a smiley.

I'd be curious to see an experiment where the same idea sometimes counts as find and sometimes doesn't. I propose that Groundspeak count selected Waymarking categories in the find count. Pick these at random. Compare these categories to another random set that doesn't count. Maybe we can tell if the smiley has an effect on whether something is a good idea or a mistake.

In the meantime, I won't expect too much from Geocaching Labs. This seems as good of an example of why as any:

View Postjholly, on 02 September 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Wherigo. I rest my case.


#144 User is offline   Maingray 

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:02 AM

Much the same conversation with a lackey as Keystone.

I found 5 Lab Caches at the Hampton Roads Picnic Mega in VA this weekend with a lackey. They were fun, nice large containers and a good online history lesson with each one. Physical codes present at each one to log them in the Lab "web app".

The link to the cache were provided by a QR code and a URL within the registration package and scattered throughout the event site. Some tech glitches with the phones working for some, but all worked well.

#145 User is offline   nittany dave 

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:09 AM

View PostKeystone, on 02 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

I also talked to Lackeys while attending Block Party.

If "temporary caches that can bend some of the guidelines to make event caches more fun" is a concept that proves itself in the "Laboratory," then eventually we might see a brand new cache type, called "Temporary Event Geocache" or something. The Temporary Event Geocache would have rules and guidelines associated with it, based on what was learned in the Laboratory. And since it would then be a full-fledged geocache type, Temporary Event Geocaches would appear in pocket queries, would count for statistics, etc., in addition to counting as finds.

Meanwhile, any similar caches found as "Lab Caches" would remain as Lab Caches in the finder's profile, meaning limited connections to statistics, pocket queries, maps, etc. They would not convert over when the new permanent cache type was introduced.

And, next year or the year after, we might see an entirely different concept, say, Fox and Hound caches, that would begin their lifetime as Lab Caches.

That is what I took away from (1) my conversations with the Lackeys, and (2) the information provided in writing to Block Party attendees. I made a conscious decision that it would be more important to try the Lab Caches (and add the icon for them to my profile) than to keep my statistics 100% accurate.

Thanks Keystone, this simple explanation is the first time I realized that the Lab caches (Temporary Event Caches in the current example) might become a new cache type if they are successful in the "lab". I'm finally understanding what the lab is.

I did 5 at the GCHR (Geocaching Hampton Roads) picnic this weekend and found the concept to be interesting. They took us to places/objects of historical significance. I think the application/website needs some work to integrate better. For example, after scanning a QR code to see the 5 lab caches, we could see the coordinates of each, but had to manually enter them to our GPS or phone. The coordinates could be a link that would bring up the geocaching.com app on the phone. If you didn't have it, they could offer to sell it to you right then or you could copy them to a different app.

If these become their own permanent cache type, it will be interesting to see whether they remain interesting or not. I could see the host of any event just setting out some temporary event caches simply for numbers that don't take me to anywhere I'd want to be or to see anything of interest. I guess a lot of today's caches do that already so maybe it wouldn't be any worse.

#146 User is offline   Keystone 

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:19 AM

View Postnittany dave, on 03 September 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

If these become their own permanent cache type, it will be interesting to see whether they remain interesting or not. I could see the host of any event just setting out some temporary event caches simply for numbers that don't take me to anywhere I'd want to be or to see anything of interest. I guess a lot of today's caches do that already so maybe it wouldn't be any worse.

Great observation. Part of what ought to be decided in the Laboratory are the standards for creating this type of geocaching experience. Should an event owner go through a training class? Should Groundspeak preapprove each experience as they are doing now? Should volunteer cache reviewers eventually get involved? Is there potential for a new type of volunteer, like "Event Expert," who advises event organizers on fun experiences including things similar to the Lab Caches we've seen so far?

I am glad you found my explanation helpful. I was blessed to have an opportunity to speak with the development team directly while in Seattle.

#147 User is offline   Dame Deco 

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:40 AM

Well, I didn't do them at Hatfield and McCoy, and I won't be doing them at the EarthCache mega event if they are there. They sound interesting, and I want to do them--but if they mess up my milestones because they count as finds, but don't show up in any statistics, I'll be avoiding them like the plague. It's a shame, really--they sound like fun. I did some of the now-defunct challenges only because they didn't show up as finds. But if these are finds but not really finds...color me very, very confused. "Don't count in statistics" but "count as finds" means that milestones will be off. How does that count as not affecting my statistics?

I'd like more of an explanation before heading off to Utah this weekend just in case there are any there.

I would be interested in doing them if they ARE finds or if they ARE NOT finds (and I get the icon, like benchmarks). But these seem like they are located in some sort of no-man's land in the middle.

This post has been edited by Dame Deco: 03 September 2013 - 10:49 AM


#148 User is offline   tozainamboku 

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostDame Deco, on 03 September 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

I would be interested in doing them if they ARE finds or if they ARE NOT finds (and I get the icon, like benchmarks). But these seem like they are located in some sort of no-man's land in the middle.

But you're not interested in doing them and just not logging them because then they wouldn't count as finds and wouldn't get an icon :unsure:

Perhaps its just me. I do geocaching (and other things) because I enjoy doing them. I'm not sure what this need for find counts and for icon collecting is all about.

Clearly Groundspeak has done some market research and found that people will cache for 31 separate souvenirs for each day in a month and that they will participate in cache-like activities at a mega-event if they count as a find. But I still don't get it.

#149 User is offline   Dame Deco 

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 05:30 AM

Making lists, keeping records, checking things off--that's part of the fun. It's not like if I skip the labs, I'm twiddling my thumbs. At the Hatfield and McCoy Mega Event I went with friends to get the oldest cache in West Virginia instead of doing the labs--it was a 17-mile round trip on rock-strewn dirt roads, top speeds of 20 mph, and usually half that, it took us a couple of hours. Got one smiley instead of 5 lab icons--but it was a blast. The labs might have been equally as much fun, but since logging them would mess up my stats, I skipped them. If I don't do the labs because it will mess up my stats, I do something else that geocache-related. When it comes down to a choice, I'll pick what I can log. Documenting things is one of the things I enjoy about geocaching. I know a guy that never logs online anymore--or not 95% of the time at least. To each his own. I'm only explaining why I won't do labs. I wish they would count like benchmarks--a record of them, but not counted as a find.

#150 User is offline   Lupes 

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:37 AM

View PostDon_J, on 02 September 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

View Postjholly, on 02 September 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

View PostDon_J, on 02 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

View Postlamoracke, on 02 September 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I imagine the Lilypad will fix these Lab caches to have them show up in 3rd party stats. I have them in mine at the moment thanks to some GPX files, I just do not know how to get the icon to show up in GSAK but that is up to them to do that. They are still new.

Yes, perhaps they will even allow the ability to "bail out" on them. Some folks just had to delete their finds on Challenges and did so later. I just hope they put more energy into fixing the lab issues than they did with the Challenges. At least these have a name which does not have confusion.


You "imagine", somebody else "heard a rumor", but the point is, there has been no official comment on this.

Until it becomes an official cache type that is included in the standard GPX file, with an indexed number assigned to it, GSAK's developer will not add the icon. This is consistent with the way that he has handled other new cache types like the L&F Event and Block Party.


Well, some of us did talk to some lackeys at the Block Party (and even Jeremy) which gave hope that these things are just getting off the ground and hopefully it will be fixed some day.

Wherigo. I rest my case.


My Friends agree.


I did all of the "caches" in both of the Labs that weekend and enjoyed them all! I agree with this thread that I just want to be able to have them 1) show up in GSAK 2) be able to reconcile my stats (finds) with what the Geocaching.com web site shows. As it stands now, I have finds that I can't find or show in the stats that I generate. Hoping for some thoughts from the powers that be.

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