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Oregon Hell Hole?

#1 User is offline   Croaker 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 08:14 AM

Yes I know some folks consider Oregon a hell hole, but I'm looking for the location of the Hell Hole profiled on the Oregon Field Guide show on PBS and in the Oregonian back in the mid 80's. The PBS show made a big deal of the secrecy of the location. I've always hated the media doing things like that. Being out in hurricanes, snow storms or any of the like, but telling you don't come out here, it's too dangerous for you mere mortals. I have an impression it was up towards Oakridge. Thanks,
Croaker

#2 User is offline   Moun10Bike 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:05 AM

Wow, I'm excited to hear someone else mention Hell Hole! There was a short write-up on Hell Hole in the Seattle Times about 10 years ago, and ever since I've wanted to find it. The article was intentionally vague on the location, as the Forest Service apparently doesn't want people going there and getting into trouble. If anyone has coordinates, I'd love to see them!



#3 User is offline   ArmandoM 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:35 AM

Is this the right hell hole?

#4 User is offline   Moun10Bike 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 10:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Armando & Co.:
Is this the right hell hole


That's not what I was thinking of. The Hell Hole that I've wanted to see all these years was described as a deep cave-like rift in the otherwise normal forest floor. It's apparently very deep and unique. I'll try to find that old Seattle Times article at home - I clipped it out and have held onto it, but finding it will be a challenge.



#5 User is offline   GeoNap 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 11:16 AM

Sounds interesting... I'm intrigued. Someone has to know where this is.... or one of us should be able to find it! Posted Image

#6 User is offline   Croaker 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 11:23 AM

It's supposed to be about 80 feet deep and only 10 or 15 yards wide at its widest, a couple hundred yards long. I've heard the Forest Service has or is deleting all reference to it and has asked the same of the USGS people, oh! save me from myself. Someone knows, time to fess up.
Croaker

#7 User is offline   Moun10Bike 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 12:33 PM

Whoo-hoo!! I found that old article I clipped from the Seattle Times! Sometimes it pays to be a packrat! Posted Image Here it is:

Hell Hole: Oregon keeps odd rift a deep secret

ASSOCIATED PRESS
WESTFIR, Ore. - A 200-foot-deep rift in the forest floor, deep enough to hold a 20-story building and create a subterranean climate at least 20 degrees cooler than summer temperatures above, has deliberately been kept out of tourist guidebooks.
Its caretakers don't want people stumbling into it unprepared, or making the hour-long descent to its bottom only to be buried by one of the periodic showers of rocks and boulders from its crumbling basalt walls.
It's known as the Hell Hole.
"It's more than a hole; this thing is a half a mile long," says U.S. Forest Service geologist Mike Long, making his 12th trip into the Hell Hole over the past 15 years.
He learned of the geologic anomaly from his predecessors at the Forest Service. It's been omitted from government maps since the 1930s, when it was marked on the charts used by loggers.
By Long's count, on his first climb into the Hell Hole he joined an exclusive fraternity of just six Forest Service employees who had been to its bottom. The club hasn't grown much since.
The government can't legally prevent the curious from entering the canyon. It's on public land, surrounded by 40 acres of woods designated by the Willamette National Forest as a special-interest area to protect it from logging or development.
Keeping the location secret is more a matter of protecting the public from itself. Roughly speaking, Hell Hole is in the highlands above the North Fork of the Middle Fork of the Willamette River.
"Even (for) experienced climbers or rappellers, I don't think this would be a good place for sport climbing," Long says. "It doesn't take very much to kill yourself down here."
Hell Hole's geologic origin can be traced back 2 million years, when lava flows oozed into the upper North Fork Valley from a series of fissure eruptions.
The flows created a formation of new lava cradled by flows from earlier eruptions. Much more recently, a progression of glaciers moved through the valley and destabilized the base upon which the newer lava rested.
The eventual product was the Hell Hole.

What you won't find
The hole also is surprising for things that haven't shown up in scientific examinations.
Even though it's well into the Cascade snow zone, there's no streambed or any other indication of spring runoff at its bottom. "The (olivine basalt) rock and soil are so permeable, it soaks it up like a sponge," Long says.
Even in the dead of summer, large spans of its silt-encrusted walls remain muddy. Moss and small, dangling ferns cover the rocks on the shadier east wall. On a hot day, steam rises from the backs of hikers as they reach the coolest layer of air on the canyon bottom.
Another peculiarity is that no animal carcasses have ever been found in the hole.
"Whether they've been covered up (by erosion debris) or they're just smarter than we are, I don't know," Long says.
There was talk in recent years about putting a fence around the Hell Hole, maybe even running a footbridge over its top for public viewing. That didn't rise far on the agency's priority scale.
About the only thing now in the works is a plan to install laser devices on each side of the rift to take exact, periodic measurements of how much, if at all, the gap is widening.



#8 User is offline   EraSeek 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 12:36 PM

Hmm! Urban legends? I have heard this story before. There is suppose to be a simular thing on the Olympic Penninsula on a mountain side near the Elwah river. I know where it is suppose to be, but never went lookig for it.



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#9 User is offline   GeoNap 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 12:47 PM

Moun10Bike: That sounds way cool! Now... all we have to do is find it! ;-)

#10 User is offline   Fathergoose 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 01:37 PM

The hunt is on…….

I have also heard of this. It is supposedly somewhere north of Oakridge.

Fathergoose

#11 User is offline   EraSeek 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 01:53 PM

The one I know of is simular but not as well definded or dramatic as the one described by Moun10Bike. It lies on the side of a mountain, on a hump that protrudes out from the forested mountain wall. It was also called something like the Hell Hole, but tough to get to. I can stand on the road below and point to where it is suppose to be. I have no idea whether it is real or not.



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#12 User is offline   pdxmarathonman 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 01:56 PM

A little safer, and probably less intriguing are
Hole in the Ground and
Crack in the Ground

#13 User is offline   Navdog 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 02:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by pdxmarathonman:
A little safer, and probably less intriguing are
Hole in the Ground and
Crack in the Ground


Both Hole in the Ground and Crack in the Ground have caches and are worth the effort to visit.


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#14 User is offline   evergreenhiker! 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 03:00 PM

Yeah, that would be cool if someone finds that hell hole. I'd like to go check it out!

#15 User is offline   Uplink 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 03:03 PM

I would think this Hell Hole would be visible from a satellite photo; I have been looking, but no luck yet. Boy, you sure couldn't miss Hole In The Ground...

#16 User is offline   CachinCin 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:44 AM

Moun10bike's article mentioned something that might help in researching this hell hole...

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

He learned of the geologic anomaly from his predecessors at the Forest Service. It's been omitted from government maps since the 1930s, when it was marked on the charts used by loggers.


Is it possible to find archives of old logging maps, say from the 1920s? Would public or maybe university libraries have them? Perhaps a logging museum? Maybe even a corporate library or museum?

I'll pose the question to my sister (a geographer), to see what she would do to find old logging maps.

Cin
(who is too old and out of shape to be hiking out to the hole, but does love archival research)

#17 User is offline   Moun10Bike 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 02:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by CachinCin:

I'll pose the question to my sister (a geographer), to see what she would do to find old logging maps.


Awesome! This is turning out to be a pretty fun challenge!

I know it doesn't help us for this "project," but Maptech has a growing collection of historic USGS topographic maps available online here. As of now, all of the available maps are back east, but in time the coverage could include our neck of the woods.



#18 User is offline   Croaker 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 02:38 AM

I plan to check the OSU library. They have an extensive map collection. Who know if they'll let me look through them.
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#19 User is offline   Trekks 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 03:00 AM

Hmmmm, here I am at work in the OSU library...I guess I can look around!

Someone want to tell me what area to look in? Oregon's kind of big when you are looking at maps of that scale.

#20 User is offline   CachinCin 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 03:18 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Trekks:
Hmmmm, here I am at work in the OSU library...I guess I can look around!

Someone want to tell me what area to look in? Oregon's kind of big when you are looking at maps of that scale.


According to the article above:

It's on public land, surrounded by 40 acres of woods designated by the Willamette National Forest as a special-interest area to protect it from logging or development....Roughly speaking, Hell Hole is in the highlands above the North Fork of the Middle Fork of the Willamette River.


Does that narrow it down enough?

Cin

#21 User is offline   Family O Foxes 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 06:19 AM

Well my Mother-in-law, Stampin' Granny, who used to work for the Forest Service in that district has not heard of it. She is a cartographer for Lane county and is looking in to this......so far, nothing.

I also contacted some local climbers who have also not heard of it. However, the two who would most likely know about it were out for the day. I'll try them again tomorrow.



#22 User is offline   Trekks 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 06:23 AM

I checked a couple of maps during lunch, but didn't find anything. The maps were from 1903, the only other maps from that area I could find were from 1931, so too late.

#23 User is offline   John E Cache 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CachinCin:
According to the article above:

_It's on public land, surrounded by 40 acres of woods designated by the Willamette National Forest as a special-interest area to protect it from logging or development....Roughly speaking, Hell Hole is in the highlands above the North Fork of the Middle Fork of the Willamette River.
_

Does that narrow it down enough?

Cin


The Willamette National forest is huge.

North Fork

I saw the show on OPB and I have only been in Oregon 6 years. The show was memorable and I actully went to the OPB website and a few months ago and I looked for the the episode on the OPB.org web page. It lists all of the Oregon Field guides but no Hell Hole in the descriptions. I beginning to wonder if I had the right show.

Good luck everyone.

Maybe a volunteer or two at the August 2 Weed Pull would be rewarded with some info.

#24 User is offline   Navdog 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 01:56 PM

References to lava flows, glacial movements, highlands above the North Fork, and it is well into the Cascade snow zone may indicate it is up around the Moolack Mtn. area. If it is up to a 1/2 mi. long and fairly wide in spots, Terra server imagery may show some traces. Knowing if it ran cross-slope or down-slope would be a big help. Being called a rift, to me, would indicate it ran perpendicular to the downslope. My question is why has it been omitted from maps as early as 1930. Hardly seems like they would have cared that much about it back then or is this just a ruse to keep the curious from bothering to look for it.


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#25 User is offline   fractal 

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 06:14 AM

Maps-R-Us might be able to help... I'll email them and have them chime in on this topic...

-fractal

#26 User is offline   Croaker 

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:01 AM

I've been looking at the area around Chucksney Mountain with ExpertGPS. I have some possibles I'll be checking out as soon as I get time.
Croaker

#27 User is offline   Gloom 

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:29 AM

Hmmm... I remember seeing this episode 5 or 6 years ago and thinking to myself that it's not very cool of them to keep this under wraps. Sort of like how spelunkers (sp?) keep cave locations hidden. Another case of trying to coddle the population and keep them away from anything that might be dangerous (unless there's some form of monitary gain involved). Anyway, I won't get into the politics of that.

I've been looking at pictures on terraserver and found some interesting looking places northwest of oakridge. Too bad I'm too busy to go do some exploring.

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#28 User is offline   blazerfan 

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:29 AM

I have heard of Hell Hole before but I think much like a jackalope it just does not exist. There are plenty of dangerous areas in Oregon that are on the map. I could be wrong but I have come to the conclusion that "hell hole" is just someone's practical joke. Much like bigfoot I'd have to see it to believe it.

#29 User is offline   Maps-R-Us 

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 12:20 AM

Got a note from fractal about this topic so started to look into it. I haven't determined the location yet but do have a couple thoughts to share. First, there was a Federal Cave Resources Protection Act passed by Congress in 1988 which requires us (federal land managers) to protect (and therefore delete from maps) significant cave resources. Here is an explanatory link: FCRPA of 1988

I don't know if the Hellhole you are looking for about qualifies as a "significant cave resource," but in an effort to err on the side of conservation, I can imagine the US Forest Service deciding to keep quiet about it's location and remove map references, if there ever were any.

Second, if it is an official geographic place name, it would be part of the Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) the official database of all places and geographic names in the US. It is maintained by the USGS and there is a national Board of Geographic Names that oversees the name approval process. You can download the database or search it online here.

This is the same data used in the TOPO! software's gazateer which is a great way to search for locations around Oregon. If you don't own the TOPO! mapping software for Oregon or Washington - you should! $99 dollars well spent at REI or GIJoes Posted Image TOPO! Website

Well, I searched the GNIS database and found no reference to a hellhole anywhere near Oakridge or on the WNF. No luck there. Posted Image

In researching old maps I was able to come up with a reference in an old map book (thanks to skooter's dad!) that referred to "Hell Hole Westfir T21S R3E"

This narrows it down to a 6 mile square area and fits in with your other information.

I have calls in to some folks on the Willamette NF and when I hear back, I'll let you know what I found out. Of course even if you did find it, I am not sure you should place a cache there or otherwise advertise the location if there is an official decision to protect it. Posted Image

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#30 User is offline   EraSeek 

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 09:46 AM

[QUOTE]In researching old maps I was able to come up with a reference in an old map book (thanks to skooter's dad!) that referred to "Hell Hole Westfir T21S R3E"

QUOTE]

Soooo.... maybe this is the Hell Hole:

"This Oakridge Water Treatment Plant is located on approximately 22 acres of Forest Service land southwest of Oakridge, Oregon, along the Middle Fork of the Willamette River. The legal description of the area is T21S, R3E, Section 18 of the Willamette Meridian, Lane County, Oregon.

The City of Oakridge has maintained a liquid waste treatment area on the current 22-acre site since 1957. The water treatment plant was upgraded in 1991 and includes a pair of sequencing batch reactors and aerobic digesters to provide wastewater treatment. Treated effluent is disinfected with ultra-violet light and discharged into the Middle Fork of the Willamette River. Biosolids are transferred from the digesters to a storage pond for annual removal and application to adjacent forestland. These biosolids are sprayed onto forestlands through six spray risers over a two-week period in July when soils are generally dry."



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#31 User is offline   Uplink 

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 12:54 PM

Hey, EraSeek, I believe thats the SMELL hole. Although if you were caught out in the wrong part o' the woods during those two weeks in July when they shot the biosolids out of the spray nozzles, I am sure it would quickly turn into Hell Hole Posted Image . They should have something like the Local Notices to Mariners for hikers... [QUOTE] [/QUOTEAvoid T21S, R3E, Section 18 of the Willamette Meridian, Lane County, Oregon during all of July do to s*** spraying operations]. Gag.

In case anyone was wondering, the corners of that T21S, R3E are approximately (WGS 84):

NW corner
N43 46.883 W122 30.560

NE
N43 46.897 W122 23.498

SE
N43 41.763 W122 23.520

SW
N43 41.811 W122 30.556

That covers about 35 square miles, but only a fairly small part of that is remote enough to hide a [QUOTE] [/QUOTEHell Hole].

#32 User is offline   Gloom 

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 04:35 AM

Hmm.... this looks interesting:

hell hole, stream or road?

Or maybe it's the line running North-South in this image. Though I think that this looks more like a stream


Both are south of Oakridge, in T21S, R3.

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#33 User is offline   Uplink 

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 08:39 AM

Gloom - your first link shows on the Oakridge quad as a dead end road, the second link shows as Shortridge Creek. I've spent a few hours pouring over the satellite images myself, and it's a tough business! I don't envy the NSA geeks who have to do it all day every day. I have a few possibilities lined up that I am still puzzling over - will post some more later.

#34 User is offline   GeoNap 

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 12:56 PM

I've been doing online searches, as well as searching various maps for this one. I REALLY hope we can find this one. During these searches, I came up with a question...

Is it possible that this 'hell hole' may have a small opening, like a cave perhaps? Then perhaps it opens up once your inside of it? Is that possible? Maybe someone else knows better than me based on the description from the PBS show (which I've never seen). If that's the case, we may not be able to find it on sattellite photos or Topo maps. Just a thought...

The part in the Seattle Times article about an 'hour-long descent'... that seems like a long time for something 200 feet deep... and then 1/2 mile long...

#35 User is offline   Navdog 

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 01:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Gloom:
Hmm.... this looks interesting:

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&x=2722&y=24198&z=10&w=2

Or maybe it's the line running North-South in http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=12&x=677&y=6052&z=10&w=2 image. Though I think that this looks more like a stream



Yes, one is a stream.You can see the downslope of the ridges running down towards the stream. I've been using Expert GPS to surf the area and it is nice because you can click an active point on the aerial map then toggle to a topo map and see exactly what you are looking at to determine if it is a stream, which usually has some shadowing from the trees along its' length, or something else. You can toggle using terraserver, but you are not pinpointed to an exact spot, so it's sometimes hard to determine what/where you are looking at on the images.

It doesn't sound like the rift is that wide, but being fairly long, it should create a faint shadow line along its' length. Then again, if the aerial image was taken at the time of day that the sun's shadow was parallel to the line of the rift, no shadowing at all may occur and it might not show on the images.


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#36 User is offline   Gloom 

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 03:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by GeoNap:
Is it possible that this 'hell hole' may have a small opening, like a cave perhaps?


From what I remember seeing and hearing in the OFG show, it's more like a small canyon. Basically a tear in the ground where the downhill side is pulling away from the upperside leaving a rift in the ground.

I have this image burned into my head of the OFG Host and the Forest Service guy crawling over bolders and rocks at the bottom of it. The bottom was only 5 or so feet at most but it opened up fairly quickly to what looked like 40 or 50 feet at the top. I remember seeing clear blue sky in the background with little or no tree coverage. It seems to me that something of that width should show up looking like a rough jagged road or stream on a satellite image.

Navdog is right about the streams, a real stream would show a downward slope on both sides. I would imagine a road is going to be much straighter/smoother looking than this would, but should appear roughly the same, meaning there is no change in the topo, or at the very most a slight dip following it.

Doin' my best to keep this topic alive!

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[This message was edited by Gloom on June 24, 2003 at 12:00 PM.]

#37 User is offline   Croaker 

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 02:33 PM

Unless we've been given deliberatley wrong information I have to think that the location is more to the NE. It's supposed to be within the Cascade snow zone, an upper North Fork valley. South of Oakridge doesn't fit.
Croaker

#38 User is offline   Moun10Bike 

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 02:54 PM

This came up in discussion at a WSGA board meeting tonight: what if, in addition to removing Hell Hole from USGS maps, the Forest Service has also had it removed from the aerial photos?

Ooooh, conspiracy theories! Posted Image



#39 User is offline   Navdog 

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 03:36 PM

Several observations from the article Moun10bike posted:

It talks about ferns on the shadier east wall, which indicates it has a more north/south orientation.

It mentions how the lava flow oozed down the upper North Fork valley. So it must be up near Moolack mountain or at least NE of Oakridge.

It mentions how the older lava flow cradled the new flow. Which would indicate that it may be lower to the valley floor.

It also mentions glacial movement as a possible factor in its' creation. Which also means it may be located lower on the valley floor.

Just some food for thought.


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#40 User is offline   Criminal 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 06:44 AM

If someone could post some lats/longs I can check air-nav charts and imagery here at work. Damn park service can't mess with our photos.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

#41 User is offline   Moun10Bike 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 07:07 AM

Uplink posted some potential bounding coordinates based on an old map reference that Maps-R-Us found (see above). Those coordinates are:

NW corner
N43 46.883 W122 30.560

NE
N43 46.897 W122 23.498

SE
N43 41.763 W122 23.520

SW
N43 41.811 W122 30.556



#42 User is offline   evergreenhiker! 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 08:14 AM

I'll plug those numbers into my TOPO! Software and see where they fall. Nope...apparently I don't have the specific region disk...damn!

#43 User is offline   The GeoSquad 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 09:28 AM

I've been following this thread and couldn't help but get sucked in by it all. Here's my take on all the info gathered so far. I think the reference to "Hell Hole Westfir T21S R3E" from an old map book seems to be the best clue gathered so far. That, in conjunction with the article that says it is in the highlands above the North Fork of the Middle Fork of the Willamette River, decreases the search area greatly.

IMO it seems it would lie in the southeast side of Buckhead Mtn, the High Prairie area or on Dead Mtn. Chucksney and Moolack seem to far away.

Another thought: I wonder how difficult would it be to track down Mike Long, the person who claims to have been there 12 times? How many Mike Longs could work for the U.S. Forest Service. Then again, would he even divulge any hints?

#44 User is offline   EraSeek 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 12:26 PM

I've been trying to search a bit and learn a bit. The mention of the origins of this formation as being from 2 million years ago puts it in the upper tertiary period. Not that long ago. Also much of Oregon falls into that area. as indicated by the light yellow:


http://tapestry.usgs.gov/states/oregon.html

The second clue seems to be the mention of an Olivine bed at the base. The major make-up of the Earth is olivine, but most of it is internal. Olivine, as I understand it, will be found on the surface in conjunction with recent volcanic events. (correct me if I'm wrong). I have seen deposits in the St Helens eruption area. At any rate, this suggests to me that you may want to look at the areas that have obvious recent volcanic activity (like some of those buttes you have). I don't know the area spoken of at all, but there is one more great clue to look for: Asbestos occurs naturally, as I understand it, being the oxidization of Olivine. We have a lot of it around Everett Wa in the water we get from the mountains. Look for a site that points to olivine deposits, or high asbestos content in the public water. I don't know if this will help to narrow things or not, but maybe it is some kind of lead. The references I've found to olivine in Oregon point mostly to SE oregon.



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#45 User is offline   Criminal 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 01:21 PM

Moun10Bike, thanks for the coords. We have nothing that helps this. It's apparently not along any of our training routes so we don't have charts of that area. Sorry.

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#46 User is offline   Peanuthead 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 01:49 PM

So maybe Grin 'n' Bearit knows where it is:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=6b415852-e951-4b4f-a0f8-d9c25ba6d16a



#47 User is offline   Navdog 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 01:59 PM

OK, I'm a little confused here. If we assume the coords listed by Moun10Bike for the township mentioned by Maps-R -Us, then that grid covers nearly none of the North Fork, let alone any of the highlands or upper valley as described by the the article.
At any rate this is a Hell of a lot more fun than trying to figure out the location of the Rose Festival medallion! Posted Image

And come to think of it. Maps-R-Us does work for one of the government agencies that could be involved in the conspiracy to cover this up. Posted Image




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[This message was edited by Navdog on June 25, 2003 at 10:08 PM.]

#48 User is offline   GeoNap 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 02:26 PM

I still can't believe there isn't SOME geocacher who knows someone... who knows someone... who knows where this sucker is.

Perhaps one of us could contact the forest service and 'pretend' to be doing a story about it... heh heh... or perhaps a documentary film... Posted Image

#49 User is offline   EraSeek 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 02:41 PM

Yes. Six Degrees Seperation! Where is it? The theory goes that within six contacts there is a connection. Within six people of you there is a person who knows someone, who knows someone....and this leads to anyone or thing in the world. We don't have that connection yet, except for the first post about articles, but no real connection. Chasing a dream? Maybe. Probably.



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#50 User is offline   Uplink 

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 02:53 PM

The coordinates I posted for the T21S, R3E that Maps-r-us mentioned were taken from the current 7.5 minute topo quads - most of it is on the Oakridge quad and the Westfir East quad, but there are slivers on the Westfir West quad, and the Holland Point quad. I am thinking along the same lines as Navdog however; I am currently looking at the area between Dead Mtn all the way up to Moolack - well out of T21S, R3E. I found three of the original range & township survey maps on the U of O website - two from the 1860's, and one from the 1890's. They surveyed the South and West 3/4 of T21S, R3E, and no mention of Hell Hole. None of them thought the North fork of the Middle fork was worth surveying. (Vague notions of There Be Dragons or some such).

Trying to find Mike Long might be helpful. He's not likely to be successful in preventing us from finding it anyway. It's not a National Security issue fer crying out loud. I have every confidence we are going to find it if it's not a hoax. Really - in the 21st century, is it really possible to hide a half mile long natural feature from a bunch of Geocachers who are on the scent? Ha!

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