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Bet you didn't know...IP harvesting, it happens here all the time!

Bloencustoms

By Bloencustoms
in General geocaching topics

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Bloencustoms

+Bloencustoms

Posted
Posted

While it may not be common knowledge, it's no secret that some of the users of these forums can get your IP address any time you view a thread they have posted in. icon_eek.gif This really is no big deal, every time you visit any website, your IP is logged. Still, now that you know people are "spying" on your IP adress, how do you feel about it?

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on October 06, 2003 at 08:38 PM.]

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Bloencustoms

+Bloencustoms

Posted
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Posted

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:

And cachers have been known to hide secret pictures on their profile and cache pages in order to collect and correlate IP information.

Thanks for pointing this out as well.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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canadazuuk

+canadazuuk

Posted
Posted

By hiding the pictures (so you can't see them), whenever you log one of their caches, or send them an e-mail via the profile page, they will be able to match the time in their IP log to the time the e-mail from the geocaching.com bot was sent, and then determine which IP is which user.

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planetrobert

+planetrobert

Posted
Posted

EEEEEEK i have caller ID, i know it's YOU, hah. If this bothers you dont drive anywhere or someone will know what kind of car you drive, and OH NO, your neighbors will know where you live.

 

Imagine, new cell phones with gps in them so emergency persons can find you... couldnt that be exploited.... how about on-star?!?!?!?!?

 

Im going to hide under a rock because of an IP#, I think not. there are much bigger privacy/security things to worry about... for example, what personal info do you throw in the trash can every week, and dont say you dont, you do. Credit card offers, bank info, any bill info. it all can be subverted to make your life a living hell if in the wrong persons hands.

 

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

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New England n00b

+New England n00b

Posted
Posted

Yeah, I'd say there is a point. Unless someone has a valid reason to know the information, it is none of their business.

 

This is like the relative at Christmas who wants to keeps a tally of how much each person spent on gifts, regardless of whom the gift is for. It isn't their business.

 

There is NO reason I can see to collect the information at all. It's just rude and an invasion of privacy.

 

---------------------

16x16_smiley-mad.gif Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

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GEO*Trailblazer 1

+GEO*Trailblazer 1

Posted
Posted

If you think that is all they look at See the

Patriot Act.

I do not care who knows who I am,or my ISP but when that info is used without my permission then that is where I draw the line.

And I have had 1st hand experience in that and caught the (Site)that used the personal info without permission,and followed through with an investigation and got it stopped.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

*GEOTRYAGAIN*

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

1803-2003

"LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/index

 

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

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planetrobert

+planetrobert

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by photosaurus:

People can also easily tell that I'm on a (superior) Mac using OSX and Safari. Makes me no difference.

 

Smart, very smart... same os here

 

an IP is generic, it is like someone knowing your phone number. Sure they can learn more, but with ALL the people here you cant investigate us all, hmmmmm?

 

lets all quit worrying and go caching, ever go look at a cache page with a custom background? oops, you probbaby got tracked. Im scared icon_eek.gif

 

IT REALLY IS NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL

 

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

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GEO*Trailblazer 1

+GEO*Trailblazer 1

Posted
Posted

Yep as they say there is 2 sides to every coin.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

*GEOTRYAGAIN*

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

1803-2003

"LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/index

 

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

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Bloencustoms

+Bloencustoms

Posted
  • Author
Posted

quote:
EEEEEEK i have caller ID, i know it's YOU, hah. If this bothers you dont drive anywhere or someone will know what kind of car you drive, and OH NO, your neighbors will know where you live.
Sure, beople will know what kind of car I drive. But hanging around with binoculars hidden in the bushes in order to read my license plate is another story. Caller ID? Most people know about it. With a couple of key presses, you can make your call ID private. I don't see the owners of these hidden images offering such an option.

 

OK, here's the difference. You view a post having a picture in the sig line. Ok, so you accessed a server. You know you did because you saw the picture. Why then do some people go to the trouble of concealing the image? Obviously they don't want people to know they are collecting IP's. The very fact that they went to the trouble of concealing it stinks of mischief.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on October 06, 2003 at 10:38 PM.]

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ju66l3r

ju66l3r

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by New England n00b:

It's rude because it's none of their business.

Isn't that obvious?

 

Not true. First off, if the internet is to work properly every request (when you open a page) and every receipt (when the website sends back a picture, or page, or anything) has to have a to and from (your IP and their's). So it is their business. If you load a 1x1 pixel of white (aka a "secret" linked photo/script) and that logs your ISP, then it was your fault for loading that picture, but if you're going to wander around on the wide world of internet, then you're going to have to get used to doing it fairly naked like most everyone else.

 

As for the utility of these IP gatherers, there's little other than if they wanted to assault *YOUR* IP specifically, then they could...but for anyone who doesn't have a static IP (most of you) then they better do whatever they wanted to do really quickly. Comcast (my ISP) rotates assigned IPs every few hours.

 

The internet is NOT a private space. Once your computer is hooked up to the internet (NOT even web surfing) it's like walking out your front door. Your neighbors can take pictures, correlate it with the car you drive, estimate your wealth by your clothes, and any other analogy under the sun. If that's really a problem for you, you should look up how to download/buy firewall software and restrict what links you allow your browser to follow automatically when a page loads. The *truly* paranoid will have already known this.

 

--

 

http://www.theonering.net/staticnews/1064605367.html

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New England n00b

+New England n00b

Posted
Posted

I think you misunderstand me, ju66l3r. I don't really give a crap that someone knows who my ISP is. That isn't the point I'm making.

 

All I'm saying that people who make a point of skimming such information for no real reason are slime-buckets, almost as bad as professional spammers. They are adult children who have never left the kindergartner(sp?) mentality and must stick their nose into everything, like the relative in my little story...

 

---------------------

16x16_smiley-mad.gif Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

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canadazuuk

+canadazuuk

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

 

OK, here's the difference. You view a post having a picture in the sig line. Ok, so you accessed a server. You know you did because you saw the picture. Why then do some people go to the trouble of _concealing_ the image? Obviously they don't want people to know they are collecting IP's. The very fact that they went to the trouble of concealing it stinks of mischief.

 

 

It's just plain deceitful to conceal the images in such a manner, but it's obvious nothing can be done about it... it's a fact of life online.

 

Some cachers may have grounds for doing such a thing, if the intent is to monitor their caches so they can tabulate data, and determine who might be stealing their caches... but even that isn't close to proof enough.

 

I'm not changing my surfing habits, or viewing habits on gc.com because of these things.

 

My new caches are all members only, and require paying members to contact me for coordinates, descriptions and hints. The only other stipulation I have is that they not share this information without my permission.

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Bloencustoms

+Bloencustoms

Posted
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Posted

Just because "everyone knows" there are people stealthily collecting IP's doesn't make it ok. You don't have to give your address and telephone number to everyone you talk to. You have the option to withhold that information if you so choose. Sure, there are some things you can't do without supplying that information, just as you can't log onto a website without supplying your IP. But in the outside world, there is an expectation of some good, or service to be provided that requires that information. When you visit a site, you download information. What service is being provided to you when someone harvests your IP without your permission or knowledge?

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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martmann

martmann

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by New England n00b:

I think you misunderstand me, ju66l3r. I don't really give a crap that someone knows who my ISP is. That isn't the point I'm making.

 

All I'm saying that people who make a point of skimming such information for no real reason are slime-buckets, almost as bad as professional spammers. They are adult children who have never left the kindergartner(sp?) mentality and must stick their nose into everything, like the relative in my little story...

No more than somebody standing on a street corner counting different types of cars (Oh no they can see my license plate number). I think there are legitimate reasons to know what type OS, and browser etc., that most people use, for marketing research, or even to build a website that better caters to the majority of web surfers, or other purposes that cause you no harm at all.

 

Do you use a debit card at the grocery store? Or one of those little savings cards that they all scan in with your order? Do you shop at Costco, or any other price club type store? If you do, you are nuts if you don't think ALL of your purchase info is saved in a database (except maybe your name, which they really don't care about, you are just a number). You are also nuts if you don't think they sell that info. For the most part it's not done to make shopping easier for you, it is done to get more money from you.

 

Unlike spamming, harvesting your IP address, doesn't cause you ANY work or effort at all, (except the unnecessary worrying you do about it). an IP address also doesn't give away your email address, so spammers aren't getting your address through IP addresses.

 

For lots of unrelated reasons you should have a good firewall (the free version of Zone Alarm works great, a NAT router is also nice) and anti-virus program, and adjust you browser privacy settings to something you can live with. Top it off with the free Google toolbar popup blocker, and you're all set. Like wearing your seatbelts while driving (just in case somebody is harvesting IP addresses while they drive).

 

___________________________________________________________

If trees could scream, would we still cut them down?

Well, maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason.

Click here for my Geocaching pictures and Here (newest)

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Bloencustoms

+Bloencustoms

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Posted

quote:
I think there are legitimate reasons to know what type OS, and browser etc., that most people use, for marketing research, or even to build a website that better caters to the majority of web surfers, or other purposes that cause you no harm at all.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. If a peeping tom sees you in the shower and you never find out about it, is that harmless? What "legitimate reason" do people have for hiding or attempting to conceal the fact they are harvesting your IP? If there is a legitimate reason for collecting it, there is no need to hide the fact.

I seriously doubt any of the hidden IP harvesters in here are doing marketing research, and Groundspeak doesn't need their help to get your IP if they want to use it to improve the website.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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Bloencustoms

+Bloencustoms

Posted
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Posted

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:

 

Is it any different that having an image *showing* in plain site on the page?

 

Yes it is.

I concur. There is no attempt made to conceal an "image".

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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ju66l3r

ju66l3r

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

I'm sorry, but I disagree. If a peeping tom sees you in the shower and you never find out about it, is that harmless? What "legitimate reason" do people have for _hiding_ or attempting to conceal the fact they are harvesting your IP? If there is a legitimate reason for collecting it, there is no need to hide the fact.

I seriously doubt any of the hidden IP harvesters in here are doing marketing research, and Groundspeak doesn't need their help to get your IP if they want to use it to improve the website.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

 

How about "for fun"....or "for single-blind research"...or "for geo-urling every geocacher in the world!". 3 legitimate reasons for hiding it.

 

The point is you broadcast your IP. I'd hazard a guess that at least 25% of the people coming to geocaching.com have spyware stealing FAR more than their IP that they *lawfully* agreed to have running on their computer when they clicked "OK" mindlessly to every pop-up on some website a year ago...

 

Don't sweat the small stuff...you'll live longer.

 

As to whether it's better hiding it or not...either way you've already loaded the page and had your IP logged...now, all "knowing about it" does is creep you out and make you *feel* like some sort of indescretion has been put upon you (when it hasn't...remember, IPs are as public as the color of your eyes).

 

I'd actually rather they harvest it and keep quiet doing so. I'm too lazy to change my browser settings to avoid off-site linking.

 

--

 

http://www.theonering.net/staticnews/1064605367.html

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Jomarac5

Jomarac5

Posted
Posted

quote:
Bloencustoms wrote:

There is no attempt made to conceal an "image".

But what if the image (that nearly everyone assumes is not hosted on another server), is providing the owner of the image exactly the same data in exactly the same manner? Is it different just because that seemingly innoculous image is doing *exactly* the same thing?

 

It's not like that *visible* image has words on it that say "this image is actually hosted on another server and is used to track IP addresses of those who visit this page".

 

Hmmm...

 

*****

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canadazuuk

+canadazuuk

Posted
Posted

Jomarac5,

 

If I had not posted on this thread, would you still be here?

 

If I had not posted to this thread, would it still be near and dear to your heart?

 

It is a known fact that members only caches have audit logs. There is no concealment incolved here. Trying to poke another hole in this site J5?

 

Hiding blank white images (or whatever) on your profile and cache pages in order to secretly track IP addresses is different altogether than placing visible images onto your cache page or profile for the same purpose.

 

The concealment is the actual the offence in this situation.

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Jomarac5

Jomarac5

Posted
Posted

quote:
Zuuk wrote:

If I had not posted to this thread, would it still be near and dear to your heart?

You're scaring me with words like those man -- how would you know what's near and dear to my heart?

 

Perhaps you better get out your little cache police detective kit and check all the images on my cache pages -- maybe they're all there to collect IP addresses. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

*****

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Gorak

+Gorak

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:

And cachers have been known to hide secret pictures on their profile and cache pages in order to collect and correlate IP information.

 

I'm not in support of it.

 

My response is to begin monitoring physical caches via a multitude of 'spy' technology.

 

So let me get this straight, you're opposed to the use of technology to covertly collect data on a person's surfing habits, but you advocate the use of technology to covertly collect data on a person's caching habits.

 

That's cool. icon_cool.gif

 

__________

Gorak

 

[This message was edited by Gorak on October 07, 2003 at 01:19 AM.]

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canadazuuk

+canadazuuk

Posted
Posted

I was actually hoping for Seneca to point out that contradiction... I purposely avoided adding these: icon_wink.gificon_biggrin.gificon_smile.gificon_wink.gificon_razz.gificon_eek.gif (Although I have contemplated using various means to find out those who are stealing caches in the Vancouver area...)

 

Let's not hijack the thread.

 

The issue is IP harvesting, and the lengths at which some people will go to do it, and conceal it.

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Gorak

+Gorak

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

OK, here's the difference. You view a post having a picture in the sig line. Ok, so you accessed a server. You know you did because you saw the picture. Why then do some people go to the trouble of _concealing_ the image? Obviously they don't want people to know they are collecting IP's. The very fact that they went to the trouble of concealing it stinks of mischief.

 

They probably conceal it because they don't want the host site to know that they are using their site to collect data, and they don't want the user knowing that they're collecting data. That should be obvious.

 

Like a lot of things on the internet, its sneaky and deceitful. But no sneakier than the visible images that collect the same data, such as many banner advertisements. Its a fact of life on the internet - all servers keep logs and the data contained in those logs is a valuable commodity. Any yes, people do have a choice to not use the internet.

 

However, while you may have to accept it, you don't have to like it. icon_smile.gif

 

__________

Gorak

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Bloencustoms

+Bloencustoms

Posted
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Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Ju66l3r

 

How about "for fun"....

As a legitimate reason? Fun as in the kind of fun the peeping tom has in my earlier example?

 

Sure your IP gets logged whenever you visit a site. I'm surfing right now, and if I'm curious as to the origin of any (visible)images, I need only look at their properties. I can't do that if the image is 1 pixel by 1 pixel and matches the color of the background, can I?

Perhaps a better question would be, why is it important for those who are harvesting IP's to keep this fact a secret? Privacy? Anonymity?

How ironic.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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briansnat

+briansnat

Posted
Posted

My choice wasn't there. Actually I couldn't care less. Does any ISP actually use static IP's anymore? Most of us come in on one IP address today and another tomorrow.

 

So someone knows you use AOL, or Worldnet, or whatever. Who cares?

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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canadazuuk

+canadazuuk

Posted
Posted

It's more of a philosophical debate. I'm not sure that any action is really being called for.

 

If people were not aware of the issue, then they have learned something perhaps.

 

I'm certainly not going to light my hair on fire, although that would make an interesting avatar.

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BassoonPilot

BassoonPilot

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

 

Interesting date and time. Oh yeah. Don't forget to ban all the people with counters on their cache pages, too. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by Zuuky:

It's more of a philosophical debate. I'm not sure that any action is really being called for.

 

If people were not aware of the issue, then they have learned something perhaps.

 

I've always thought it very strange that TPTB must also have been aware of the practice and the related ethical issues, but have chosen to ignore it. Oh, wait ... that doesn't surprise me one bit. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

But have no fear! Don't panic! TPTB know who these miscreants are, and if they don't stop it right now, they will "out" them! icon_rolleyes.gif

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on October 07, 2003 at 04:14 AM.]

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