Help! Expert witness needed!

December 30, 2002

I'm a divorce attorney and I have a client who has used GPS technology to "catch" a wayward husband.

Long story short, she suspected her husband of cheating and, on the advice of a friend, purchased an eTrex Yellow. When he announced that he had yet another out-of-town "business meeting" on a weekend, she hid the eTrex in a handy spot in the back window of his car. When he returned, she retrieved the GPSr, replaced the batteries, and followed his track to a motel several miles from the place he told her he would be going.

She was a little discouraged by a few other attorneys she'd spoken with who didn't understand the significance of the evidence she'd gathered. When she first came to me, she started to explain how GPS technology worked and told me what she'd done. She was delighted when I asked her for the unit, then turned around to my computer and uploaded the track and downloaded it to my Legend. From the track, I can tell not only where hubby stayed with his girlfriend, but where they had dinner that night (where the batteries died). I've subpoenaed the hotel records and such and they will prove helpful, but not really conclusive.

Seems now that this thing might be going to court, as her attorney doesn't understand much about the way these things work. Trouble is, I can't explain it myself in court, since I can't testify as a witness and represent my client at the same time. I'm guessing that I need an expert witness on GPSr technology so that I can get the judge to understand just how he got caught.

I need someone who has some backgroung (not just hobby related) in GPS technology. If you think you can help, please e-mail me.

BTW, I'm located in Henry County, Virginia, and there may be an expert witness fee available. At the least, travel expenses will be paid. At the least, you'll be able to log a few of my local caches.

E-mail me or respond to this post to let me know.

And for the curious, I'll let you know how the case turns out. I'm pretty daggone confident on this one!

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

December 30, 2002

I know this sounds crazy, but try googling under GPS Cement Trucks or GPS School Bus or GPS Police and you will find companies that sell the tracking technologies. They have people who do presentations about WHY you need their product and people who program their systems, Also, check out your nearest university's Geography teachers. You can get a degree in GIS technology and they would be able to help you find an expert. Geospatial Technologies in CA has some good stuff they sell for tracking. Another idea, call your county tax office or Office of Planning and Management, there are usually people who make GIS maps associated with those depts who can help you.

-Jennifer

Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something else. (JM Barrie)

1.2k · December 30, 2002

There is some guy on these forums who is writing a book on geocaching... boy, THIS should make a heck of a chapter!!

-Elana (a.k.a. "sparrowhawk" and formerly a.k.a. "falcospav" here on this site.)

December 30, 2002

Check out www.trimble.com. The company I work for has had many presentations on them, and I've seen what they do with GPS technology. Not to toot their horn too much, but that's definitely where I'd go to get expert testimony...

Kevman42

1.1k · December 30, 2002

You need to get hold of the Spokan, Washington police. They used GPSr in tracking a child killer and the evidence help up in court for a conviction. You might google and find it also.

TTFN, logscaler.

December 30, 2002

How can you prove that she did not create the track log herself? She obviously followed the track back, so she went to those places. I think this one will be harder to prove than you think unless he just fesses up. I am not a lawyer but I was in Law enforcement for 25 years. Let us know how this one turns out and I would specifically be interested in any Evidentiary ruling on the GPS evidence. Good luck with your case.

December 30, 2002

sci.geo.satellite.nav

Maybe some there can be of help if you ask the same question.

gm100guy

http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm

1.4k · December 30, 2002

I'm not in law enforcement, but I do watch Matlock. If she gets the hotel records and that proves he was there it wouldn't matter if the wife made the track herself right? Now, we are going to need the hotel records, bank records and question people at the restaurant. Where should I start?

---Real men cache in shorts.

December 30, 2002

Use the search link and find Kerry (username) and e-mail him through the blind e-mail system of the site.

He is the most knowledgeble user (that I'm aware of) in both the GPS SYSTEM and the GPSr systems.

I'm sure there are others, but that's where I would start.

Unknown objects are operating under intelligent control... It is imperative that we learn where UFO's come from and what their purpose is... - -Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter Director, Central Intelligence Agency 1947-1950

December 30, 2002

...please keep us posted. I'm curious as to how the evidence holds up in court.

December 30, 2002

I know from experience. .... If you are still gathering evidence, there is a group of people that rent devices to stick under a car. It uses GPS technolody to send a data trail to a system that time loggs and tracks that car for a long period of time. It is magnetic in placement and is used often by private detectives. I know, because some of the guys where I was once General Manager ran a rental source of these units. The business XXXX, I was at, is an electronic board repair house.(not sure you needed that info)... But, point is, I can get hold of them and connect you if you wish. They were rented exactly for what you are doing. The edivence was used in divorice courts often, I'm not sure under what predicate.

** The worst suggestion of a life time may be the catalyst to the best idea of the century, don't fail to listen to suggestions.

December 30, 2002

After reading your post to my wife and my responese.

She said find someone in the military and they could explain it.

She watches to much JAG......

gm100guy

http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm

December 30, 2002

but I would try Garmin. They made it so they can attest to the accuracy and any other question about thier unit. Also they may be able to retrieve the time stamps from each position collected in the track.

December 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BrownMule:
How can you prove that she did not create the track log herself? She obviously followed the track back, so she went to those places. I think this one will be harder to prove than you think unless he just fesses up. I am not a lawyer but I was in Law enforcement for 25 years. Let us know how this one turns out and I would specifically be interested in any Evidentiary ruling on the GPS evidence. Good luck with your case.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/15777_2200.gif

Her friend was at the house when she put the GPSr in the car, so I've at least got a witness to that end of the track. As for further evidence that places him at the motel, I'm going to subpoena their records to see if anyone signed in with handwriting that matches hubby. I've already spoken with the hotel's owner and he's unwilling to release the info without a subpoena duces tecum, but he's otherwise pretty helpful. He's already pulled the sign in sheets for that day and is holding them for me.

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

December 31, 2002

I've got plenty of leads on possible experts, now. After I posted my original message, it dawned on me that I went to law school with a guy who's now a patent attorney for NASA in Virginia Beach. Got e-mail back from him this morning and he works directly with the guy who designed the GPS systems for the Space Shuttle and whose credibility as an expert should be sky high. I'm hoping I'll get a call from him today.

As for the requests for info on the case, I'll keep everyone updated. My gut feeling, though, is that once I've got the hotel records and an expert witness to testfy about GPS technology, we'll end up settling the case. If we go to trial, though, it could prove interesting!

Thanks again!

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

December 31, 2002

Although the GPS track could help to determine where the husband may have gone and gather evidence from those spots, I don't see it being very helpful as evidence itself. All the tracks shows is SOMEONE went by that Motel for SOME REASON. It can't show who went by there, or for how long, or for what reason. (No, Honeybun, I never went to any motel. Oh, I remember now! One of the other people at the meeting left a file at his motel room. Darling, it just made sense to let him borrow my car to go get it rather than him having to pay for a taxi. Snookums, don't you trust me anymore?)

Also, as long shot as it may be, you think it's really a good idea to be discussing possible trial evidence on an public access internet message board?

On a lighter side, imagine the cache log: 'Found:Hubby's Love Nest Cache. Took: Hubby to the cleaners. Left: Him

Visit the Mississippi Geocaching Forum at

http://pub98.ezboard.com/bgeocachingms

December 31, 2002

... "guy who designed the GPS systems for the Space Shuttle"

Yeah, he MIGHT know something about it too...

... sounds like you did good. ....

.. How would one get in touch with your brain if I (one) ever needed you? NO! not for a (the D word). Do you do other kinds of cases or just "him & her" wars?

...coarse one could go to your profile and track from there. .....so, never mind.

Well, point is, You have used your resources well, I have NO DOUBT you will win your case, I hope I'm never unlucky enough to be on the other side, against YOU!

All this crap is supposed to be a compliment! ...'but I don't do that very well....

... some greek words I don't, & never well know, go here .. to impress a lawyer. .... what'd ya expect from an engineer?

G-luck on the case!

** The worst suggestion of a life time may be the catalyst to the best idea of the century, don't fail to listen to suggestions.

December 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by pater47:
Although the GPS track could help to determine where the husband may have gone and gather evidence from those spots, I don't see it being very helpful as evidence itself. All the tracks shows is SOMEONE went by that Motel for SOME REASON. It can't show who went by there, or for how long, or for what reason. (No, Honeybun, I never went to any motel. Oh, I remember now! One of the other people at the meeting left a file at his motel room. Darling, it just made sense to let him borrow my car to go get it rather than him having to pay for a taxi. Snookums, don't you trust me anymore?)

Also, as long shot as it may be, you think it's really a good idea to be discussing possible trial evidence on an public access internet message board?

On a lighter side, imagine the cache log: 'Found:Hubby's Love Nest Cache. Took: Hubby to the cleaners. Left: Him

What's going to burn him, though, is that he signed the log!

As far as the "borrowed car" defense is concerned, the motel is roughly 220 miles from the alleged business meeting, and in the opposite direction. The GPSr never went north, only south (at least before the batteries died).

And with regard to discussing it on an open internet forum, I doubt this pinhead would even figure out I'm talking about him, even if he were reading this right now.

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

December 31, 2002

My buddy came through for me! I just got off the phone with one of the engineers that works on the GPS system at Langley here in VA. He was pretty tickled at how hubby got nabbed. He's told me that he'd be happy to testify, if needed.

On to step two...get the subpoena out for the hotel records!

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

December 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Lyra:

What's going to burn him, though, is that he signed the log!

Did he use his credit card? Might get that info as well to show him there.

Is the track still in the GPS? It would be next to impossible to fake the timestamps on the track still inside the gps. Someone might try to claim a downloaded copy of the track could have been altered after it was downloaded. Though, as you say, if you can get the records from the hotel, that just about cinches it.

December 31, 2002

As a trined forensic scientist and practitioner, i have attended lectures about using gps to document evidence at crime scene, especially in remote locations. In my expert opinion, for criminal proceedings, the use of a GPS as part of a documentation package (at least a consumer gps) does not reach the reliability standard of either FRYE or DAUBERT. Having said that, if that is the only way to document a crime scene then its better then nothing. The probelm is that the operator can not know at any one time the true known error rate of the data being collected. We can know the potential error rate at all times. Because of this, i wont use a conusmer gps for documenting a crime scene. curious, is the track record heresay evidence? I guess a divorce case is a civil proceeding? I thought the rules for expert/scientific evidence were the same? i would be curious to know this and how it is accepted in court. thanks

SR and dboggny.

December 31, 2002

quote:
...The probelm is that the operator can not know at any one time the true known error rate of the data being collected. ..

Interesting. Do you think that would still hold true for readings taken with WAAS on in a WAAS area? WAAS would know the true error as reported by the WAAS stations, and be transmitting the error correction info to the GPSr. True, the operator would still not know this information, but I assume there may be a way to later check the WAAS system to see what the reported error was.

December 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Centaur:

quote:
...The probelm is that the operator can not know at any one time the true known error rate of the data being collected. ..

Interesting. Do you think that would still hold true for readings taken with WAAS on in a WAAS area? WAAS would know the true error as reported by the WAAS stations, and be transmitting the error correction info to the GPSr. True, the operator would still not know this information, but I assume there may be a way to later check the WAAS system to see what the reported error was.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/66427_2800.gif

i believe that it would certainly go to knowing the known error rate at any given time, if its possible. then, we have questions of reliability, is the error too big to use and etc, calibration and so on... i am curious to see if and how these questions get answered. if they have been previously answered in case law i would be interested to see that also.

SR and dboggny.

January 1, 2003

It seems to me that the GPS would only give probable cause to get a subpeona or search warrant, where the REAL evidence lies.

"I can't find the longitude for the North Pole"

January 1, 2003

Lets say the GPSr and hotel records prove the husband was at the hotel. So what? The only thing he really did was lie about being out of town. Does not really show he was there with anybody. Does not show the person was a woman. Does not show anything happened. Maybe he just wanted a little me time away from the wife. We don't know maybe she is a real pain in butt. I've been in hotel rooms with women and nothing happened, even spent the night and all was on the up and up. But hey lets be honest at the point that someone is attaching a GPSr on a car to follow the spouse around the honeymoon is well beyond over. These two should be adults and call it a night. Where is Jeremy to ask what this has to do with geocaching? :-)

January 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Sparrowhawk:
There is some guy on these forums who is writing a book on geocaching... boy, THIS should make a heck of a chapter!!

I don't know about a chapter, but it sure is an interesting story to include...

January 1, 2003

the point of my question is not what it proves but how this type of expert/opnioin/scientific evidence is accepted by courts...

SR and dboggny.

January 25, 2003

When I first spoke to the hotel manager, he was pretty willing to help, but only if his records were subpoenaed so that he could keep himself out of hot water. He did say, however, when I spoke with him the next day, that he was sure that the information he had would be of good use to me.

I got the subpoenaed information last Friday. It included a copy of the sign-in form that the hotel uses, and the handwriting is pretty much identical, though he signed in under an assumed name, along with a woman he identified as Ms. Not-his-real-name!!!

But that's not the least of it...they hotel manager included a videotape of the hidden security camera at the hotel lobby desk! Hadn't thought about that possibility! Went in my conference room and popped the tape into the VCR, pulled up a chair and settled back with a bowl of popcorn and watched. It's him, all right, and he's there with a woman. I watched as he signed the registry form and handed the lady at the desk cash for the room. The hotel clerk then disappears for approximately two minutes, during which Mr. and Mrs. Not-his-real-name shared a few kisses!

NAILED!

Called his lawyer and set up a time to meet on Tuesday. Took the tape and documents with me, along with the GPSr, just so I could show his lawyer how we'd caught him. Showed the tape and his lawyer said, "I'll get back with you."

Umm...I should probably add at this point that we took his deposition on January 15th and he denied, under oath, ever going to a hotel with a woman in that city on the date in question.

Got a letter from his attorney in the mail today (yep, self-employed attorneys generally do have to work on weekends) that indicates hubby's caving to our demands. We'll be settling this one shortly!

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

January 25, 2003

I sure hope, if I ever need an attorney for something like this, details of my case aren't posted on a web forum.

I kept reading this and waiting for the punch line...thinking it was some clever joke.

Lyra, are you sure you aren't breaking some law, or at least ethics with the information you have given out?

'A good traveler has no specific destination, and isn't intent on arriving.'-take pleasure in the journey

January 25, 2003

I've heard many attorneys describe cases that would violate attorney-client privilege, but only if they identified the client, either directly or indirectly. And besides, Lyra is only describing the evidence, which I would suppose is part of the public record. It all sounds pretty much on the up-and-up to me.

But heck, what do I know? I'm not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV.

November 4, 2003

Does anyone know whatever came of this soap opera?

1.1k · November 4, 2003

So would catching a spouse cheating be a locationless cache? Maybe a multi for those really active cheaters.

Understand what? My purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn.

-Roland, The Gunslinger

November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnie Stalkers:
So would catching a spouse cheating be a locationless cache?

CACHING a spouse! LOL!!

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

1.1k · November 4, 2003

IF you did 'cache' a spouse, would you archive? Someone said something about Geocachers knowing all the good places to hide a body........

Understand what? My purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn.

-Roland, The Gunslinger

2.3k · November 4, 2003

LOL...

"This relationship has been permanently archived, with the exception of ongoing alimony of the size to make a banker shudder."

ALIMONY: The screwing you get for the screwing you got.

This has been like watching a Three Stooges episode. Can't wait to see what comes of it!

Joel (joefrog)

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

November 4, 2003

Are there time stamps on each point so she can see when and how long he was at the hotel and restaurant?

4.8k · November 4, 2003

quote:
She was a little discouraged by a few other attorneys she'd spoken with who didn't understand the significance of the evidence she'd gathered.

Isn't Virginia a no-fault divorce state? If so, it shouldn't matter that he was cheating and the evidence is irrelevant.

pika waving

November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Fatboy Slim & Rainey Belle:
Lyra, are you sure you aren't breaking some law, or at least ethics with the information you have given out?

She never gave anybody's name or identifying information, and besides, it all becomes a matter of public record as soon as the courts are involved. So, like it or not, anyone could access this information--it just would take a little more digging.

_________________________

~ Ryan S Eanes ~

RSEanes.com. Why not?

http://www.rseanes.com

November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:

quote:
She was a little discouraged by a few other attorneys she'd spoken with who didn't understand the significance of the evidence she'd gathered.

Isn't Virginia a no-fault divorce state? If so, it shouldn't matter that he was cheating and the evidence is irrelevant.

pika waving

But the key issue is whether or not she can log this as a find on the GC site

November 4, 2003

ITT Industries in Fort Wayne, IN designs and builds the satelites for the GPS network. You could try contacting someone there who works/designs them and also uses the GPSr.

Step lightly and carry a big gun.

November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnie Stalkers:
IF you did 'cache' a spouse, would you archive? Someone said something about Geocachers knowing all the good places to hide a body........

Problem is, all the good places probably already have caches hidden there, so there won't be any room for the body...

---

Remember what the dormouse said...

1.1k · November 4, 2003

Gonna need one of those 40 Gallon Rubbermaid containers for this one.

Took McToy

Left Spouse

Signed Log

Understand what? My purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn.

-Roland, The Gunslinger

November 4, 2003

Johnnie Stalkers

CobraCacher

posted November 04, 2003 09:54 AM

Gonna need one of those 40 Gallon Rubbermaid containers for this one.

Took McToy

Left Spouse

Signed Log

Understand what? My purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn.

-Roland, The Gunslinger

-----------------------------------------------

Just when you thought you couldn't trade down on a McToy.

GeoCache Pickup Line: Hey I'm looking for treasure, Can I look around your chest?

November 4, 2003

We got a company in France that installs GPS in cars with an emitter. When the car is stolen, it tracks its location and it's emitted. As soon the police is warned, they can go out and track the stolen car using an helicopter and ground units. Several cars have been found the very same day they have been stolen and people are quite happy about it. They want to spread this to other countries of Europe because thieves try to stale cars and make them leave the country as fast as possible to avoid being tracked ; since Europe allows free movement of people around, it works. No idea if that GPS that women used can be used as proof against her husband. In France, you need to have the proof certified by a "notaire" (usually it takes the form of following the person and taking a picture of that person with another men/women under the presence of the notaire to have it become a proof you can show to a court. In France, video or audio recordings are not considered a proof in front of a court, but presence of a notaire/huisser can make it a "commencement de preuve" which has not the same value as a real proof (like a testimony).

November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by gilbertf:
We got a company in France that installs GPS in cars with an emitter. When the car is stolen, it tracks its location and it's emitted. As soon the police is warned, they can go out and track the stolen car using an helicopter and ground units. Several cars have been found the very same day they have been stolen and people are quite happy about it. They want to spread this to other countries of Europe because thieves try to stale cars and make them leave the country as fast as possible to avoid being tracked ; since Europe allows free movement of people around, it works. No idea if that GPS that women used can be used as proof against her husband. In France, you need to have the proof certified by a "notaire" (usually it takes the form of following the person and taking a picture of that person with another men/women under the presence of the notaire to have it become a proof you can show to a court. In France, video or audio recordings are not considered a proof in front of a court, but presence of a notaire/huisser can make it a "commencement de preuve" which has not the same value as a real proof (like a testimony).

Yea! It's called LOJACK and it's been in the U.S.A. for years.

http://www.lojack.com/

5.3k · November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by EMTJeepers:
Yea! It's called LOJACK and it's been in the U.S.A. for years.

http://www.lojack.com/

I think LOJACK uses a transmitter that the police zero in on. It does not use the GPS system. However, the On-Star system in GM vehicles uses GPS and a cellular connection to track the vehicle.

______________________

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer Simpson

ChiTown Cachers * Keenpeople.com Stats

1.6k · November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnie Stalkers:
So would catching a spouse cheating be a locationless cache? Maybe a multi for those really active cheaters.

For those who are skanky, it could be travel bug. For those who are REALLY skanky, travel bugs.

_____________

7 3 10 13 23 36 59 95 ...

1.1k · November 4, 2003

Oh...I thought Travel bugs where what they where bringing home to the spouse. I guess it could work both ways.

Understand what? My purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn.

-Roland, The Gunslinger

1.3k · November 4, 2003

In the Garmin etrex, you have an opportunity to view the timestamps on the tracklog when you choose the "save tracks" option. It lists dates and times where you can save portions of the tracklog. If the log is till in the unit's memory, but has not been formally "saved", this might be a way to get more information about the times the log was recorded. I'm not sure how the unit determines where to insert the save points, but I think it inserts them at points where the unit has not moved much for a while. If this is the case, you might even be able to prove that the stops in the tracklog correspond with the times on the hotel video in order to further reinforce the evidence.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

November 4, 2003

Nice work Lyra. I was going to say I could probably track you down someone but looks like you're good to go.

Help! Expert witness needed!

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment