I Need Some Advice.

January 16, 2004

My situation:

1) I have GPS.

2) I think caches are great if placed with the permission of the land manager. Contrary to the view of most, a lack of a policy is not permission in my view.

3) I do not want to search for a cache that is placed without permission (by my definition).

4) I have tried to identify caches in my area that have been placed with permission (by my definition) . It would seem that none have been placed with permission - or at least this is not mentioned anywhere.

My question:

How do I identify caches that I can go out and search for according to the limits I have set for myself?

Again, I my use of the word permission to mean, "placed with the agreement of the land manager and a lack of a policy is not permission."

Again, I am not asking you to agree with me or tell me I am wrong. My question is not about what permission means. It is about how I can identify caches that meet my definition of permission.

Thanks,

Les.

9.4k · January 16, 2004

If the cache is listed on geocaching.com, the cache owner has stated that he has valid permission to place a cache there. If you want proof of such permission, you'll need to email the cache owner to find out.

24.7k · January 16, 2004

You can't. You can either verify, in person, each and every cache you desire to seek, or you can let GC.com worry about permission in what they list and pass on the caches that make you feel uncomfortable.

6.5k · January 16, 2004

My question:

How do I identify caches that I can go out and search for according to the limits I have set for myself?

Travel a good distance to any caches that expressly state they have permission and from whom?

8.4k · January 16, 2004

I feel the restraint of others wanting to post to this thread.

Bury your feelings Luke. They do you credit, but they could be used by the DARKSIDE to lure you into a flame fest.

Haven't we been here before Les? Find some caches and see how fun it is first. Don't limit your chance for discovery because of percieved wrong doing. Your lack of stats makes it hard for some to see you as anything other than a troll....Not me.

Sn :bad: :unsure: gans

January 17, 2004

Seems like you stirred this pot before.............like in November. Maybe you should re-read some of the posts from that thread.............or perhaps go out and try some geocaching. Heck, you might like it more than posting the same questions to the forums.

Edited January 17, 2004 by Colonel Mustard

1.3k · January 17, 2004

My question is not about what permission means. It is about how I can identify caches that meet my definition of permission.

Obvoiusly, without contacting the cache owner there is no way to tell unless they wrote it on the page, or you assume that because it was approved, it met the guidelines. The guidelines mention "permission". People might disagree with you about the no policy = permission thing. If they believe that permission is implied where caching isn't forbidden, (as I do) the cache might not fit your criteria.

I have tried to identify caches in my area that have been placed with permission (by my definition) . It would seem that none have been placed with permission - or at least this is not mentioned anywhere.

I hope I am wrong that this is going to become some kind of crusade where you ask the land managers if every cache you see has permission. That could lead to a lot of problems for the sport.

If you really want to hunt a cache, and the cache owner is unresponsive, try asking permission to place a cache in the park. Make sure to present caching in as positive a light as possible, and you just might do the sport a service, rather than possibly harm it.

There is a big difference between "Hey, did you know people are hiding stuff in the park, Mr. Ranger?", and "Hi, I'd like to tell you about an exciting new activity that gets people outdoors to enjoy nature, and the beautiful park you are in charge of would be a great place to do it. We also pick up loads of trash in the process, let me tell you more."

Talk to the cache approver for your region, or a local caching organization, they can help you figure out the best strategy for approaching land managers.

5.3k · January 17, 2004

I'm assuming that the terms agreed to by every cache hider (stating that if permission is required that it was obtained), are not good enough for you. Someone could just lie, right?

I think the only solution is for you to seek permission yourself to place a cache. Go out and hide it, then post it here on the website. You will then have a cache that you can be sure was placed with permission.

Have a blast hunting it!

2.1k · January 17, 2004

I think the first response was probably the best solution I can think of as well.

Contact each cache owner before you hunt it. The other way (which would probably get you a lot more hate mail) would be to contact the land owner where the cache is hidden to see if permission was given to anyone.

There are only 2 people who will necessarily know if a cache has been given the sort of explicit permission you require: the hider and the land manager (and anyone they tell). So if it's not on the webpage of the cache, you will have to contact someone who would know.

If you start contacting unaware land managers who want geocaches removed when they start investigating what you're asking about...you may have a lot of unhappy people looking at/for you.

1.3k · January 17, 2004

Is there a local geocaching group? They would be able to point you at specific cachers who feel like you or be able to inform you of those circumstances where blanket permission has been given in advance.

January 17, 2004

Hello, I thought I remembered the name. You were the guy who got all those caches archived in Hamilton Ontario, Canada. I am not surprised that you have yet to find a single cache. Being around for so long and not found a single one makes me shake my head in shame. Why did you not post this to the Canadian forums? You would get a better response there.

Edited January 17, 2004 by The Two Navigators

January 17, 2004

Lesenergy, it can't be done. Unless you hide the cache yourself, you can never be certain that the hider had obtained permission to hide it. There are a lot of people out there who lie - even land managers (they can be bribed). Simply put, by your definition, you cannot go Geocaching. I respect your morals, and suggest that you live with your definition, and accept that you will need to find something else to do with your GPS. At least it will come in handy if anyone insists that you get lost.

January 17, 2004

Congratulations on the new GPS, have you tried starting out with a virtual cache? If you are in the Hamilton area (I don't know, just a guess), maybe start out with a cache in the Hamilton Conservation Area that was not recently requested removed. They did state they have reviewed all of the caches on their land and if they did not ask for a cache to be removed, I would consider that permission implied since they know about them. Practice CITO when you cache also, we usually bring out a bag or 2 of garbage when we cache. There has been a few time I almost went back to get my truck to remove some of the big stuff, tires, a couch, mattresses, it is amazing what people will dump, mostly in vehicle restricted access areas so I have not yet. It is also time to set up for April 17th soon, we should get some events scheduled across Ontario at the different parks for the Second Annual Cache In Trash Out Day!, April 17th, 2004. You can also try this cache, Testing, Testing, 1..2..3.. which was placed with full permission of the land manager. Please try Geocaching before you condemn it.

3.9k · January 17, 2004

Les Les Les. Gotta love the guy. I'll give ya this Les, you do stick to your guns don't ya. I'm placing a cache on NPS property as soon as the weather breaks. Obviously to do this I have gotten permission otherwise GC.com will not approve it. I'll tell ya what I'll pick you up at the airport, drive you to the cache site, you can find it and I'll drive you back to the airport. And if your really nice I'll let you buy me dinner. Sound like a deal Les? People, I've emailed Les a few times. There is nobody here that can change him mind. I can see it now though, once he finds that first cache he's going to be like a Catholic School girl going to public school for the first time. He'll have 500 finds in his first 3 months, 35 hides, organize 2 events and we'll ask him "Les what about all that permission stuff?" and he'll be like "**** that ****! If had to get permission for everything I'd never find any caches! Besides, It's not like I'm burring caches, and It doesn't take away from the natural beauty of the land or anything! You guys are sooo uptight!

3.9k · January 17, 2004

Hello, I thought I remembered the name. You were the guy who got all those caches archived in Hamilton Ontario, Canada. I am not surprised that you have yet to find a single cache. Being around for so long and not found a single one makes me shake my head in shame. Why did you not post this to the Canadian forums? You would get a better response there.

What? Are you serious? He literally got caches archived? How?

January 17, 2004

This is weird.

I am disturbed.

I shall seek the advice of the great lampooni on this one.

:unsure:

5.3k · January 17, 2004

I have some very helpful advice for you, Les. Probably the best you'll receive.

Xanax. Can do wonders, I hear.

2.2k · January 17, 2004

zoloft isn't bad either. valium can also help. no! wait.... valium helps me. :unsure:

January 17, 2004

Lampooni recommended other more potent drugs.

Nonetheless I cannot advise them or my warn meter will peak out.

:unsure:

January 17, 2004

you can just do Virtuals and Locationless caches, and benchmarks. Traditional caches and the permission issue may be too problematic for your sensibilities, so why torture yourself? It's supposed to be fun. :unsure:

38.2k · January 17, 2004

-------------- Troll-Quality-o-meter® ---------------

Pathetic________________________Reeling 'em in

0--- 1----2-----3----4----5-----6----7-----8----9---10

!----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----!

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Edited January 17, 2004 by briansnat

January 17, 2004

What's wrong with this picture?

lessenergy

Member Since: Tuesday, October 14, 2003

Posts: 63

Found: 0

Hidden: 0

38.2k · January 17, 2004

Yeah, and 80 percent 63 of those posts were about permission and environmental damage resulting from geocaching. Kind of odd that he knows so much about a sport that he has never expereinced. The other 20 percent were bitching about the moderators and GC.COM policies.

Edited January 17, 2004 by briansnat

1.6k · January 17, 2004

As the acting Administrator of the newly formed Ontario Geocaching Association (the name is not offical until Jan 18th, but it seems to be locked in) I can say that there seems to be much truth to the fact that several caches in the Hamilton Ontario Canada area have become archived or modified of late. It also is accurate to say that LessEnergy had contacted the Hamilton Conservation Authority to inquire about Geocaching Policies and further land owner rights.

According to another message in the Canada group, a member of the HCA has joined the discussion and has made some valid points regarding cache placement. Some caches have been placed in areas of Environmental significance and have been either relocated or archived from this.

The HCA has always contacted the cache owner and discussion has been open and well received by both parties, as far as I know.

However, our group (OGA) will have to contact the HCA to discuss the implementing of geocaching policies as this should not be hancdled by a single individual, especially one that has no geocaching experience.

In my opinion it is wrong for any single individual to speak on behalf of a group, especially when they have not the experience or support of a large group, such as Ontario Geocachers.

:lol: The Blue Quasar

2.2k · January 17, 2004

In my opinion it is wrong for any single individual to speak on behalf of a group, especially when they have not the experience or support of a large group, such as Ontario Geocachers.

The Blue Quasar

what he said.

January 17, 2004

Thanks for the helpfull advice. I guess I'll just limit myself to virtuals and the remaining caches in the Hamiton Conservation Area as well as any others I can find that are clearly placed with approval as described in the cache description.

Since I left my gps at work, it'll be next weekend before I can even go out looking though.

There were a number of less than legitimate suggestions so I'll just ignore those although drugs seems like a good idea sometimes.

The alternatives are to contact land managers to see if the caches are placed with permission which, I am sure, would make me really popular here. Not that I care about being popular (obviously) but I also don't want the headaches. It is not worth it.

The last thing suggested was to contact the cache owner and I can see how that would go.

Les: "I want to search for your cache. Can you tell me if you had permission to place it before I do?"

Cache Owner: ....Well, there are a variety of potential responses but none are likely to do create any co-operation.

And to put my own spin on The Two Navigator's post. I did not get any cache banned.

Here is the sequence of events:

I e-mailed HCA quite a while ago and asked about their policy on caches. As a result of my e-mail, the land manager looked into the issue and decided that some of the caches (although apparently not all since some are still active) should be removed/archived pending a policy on the issue.

The land manager also committted to creating a policy and committed to working with cache-tec (and now I guess Blue Quasar via OGA) in setting up that policy. I don't know at what stage that is at.

So, I guess one perspective on this that I got some caches banned. Another is that I sought information and as a result of my enquiry the local land manager found that some caches were in environmentally sensitive areas or in areas that are too dangerous to cache in.

Did I do something wrong? I can see that some will think so. I certainly sent my initial question knowing that it would be possible that the land manager would want some caches removed (on the assumption that they knew nothing of them in the first place which turned out to be true.)

I have also exchanged quite a number of messages with the land manager and also spoken to that person on the phone. Most of what I communicated was in support of geocaching but none of that made it to the forum as it was all private communication.

If you want to see some more info on the HCA caches check out this thread:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=59887

Of note, The Two Navigators, pasted a link to this thread on that thread. I wonder if he would consider deleting that post as all it really will do is direct the land manager to this thread which may not be helpfull in putting geocaching in a positive light.

Also, I was pretty roundly insulted on that thread and decided not to defend myself there as, again, it seemed counter productive to argue under the watchfull eyes of the land manager. If anyone wants to insult me, challenge my intentions or integrity maybe you could do it on this thread instead of the HCA thread.

Les.

1.6k · January 17, 2004

Permission is an aribrary idea. There has been many discussions about this before and likely to be many more.

Even the idea of land owner or manager can be disputed.

Private Land : Property owned by an individual or family, or property owned by a business or corporation.

Public Land : Property that is owned by city, municipal, provincial or federal agengies AND designated as for use by the general public.

Restricted Land : Property that is owned by city, municipal, provincial or federal agencies that is deemed hazardous or protected from the general public.

or....

Private Land : My house, Your house, McDonalds , IBM head office.

Public Land : The park down the street, the conservation area that charges admission to enter or has free admission.

Restricted Land : The rifle range owned by the Department of National Defence, the Municipal landfill.

Now then, those are just examples to illustrate a point....

The only one of those listed that geocaching is allowed is PUBLIC Land, unless special provisions have been established with the owner of Private Land.

When it comes to Public Land, there are rules of use. Most have these posted or are available at the kiosk when you enter. And while some are vague, most are pretty straight forward. These rules must be followed but if there is an area that is open to interpretation then it is the responsiblity of the cache placer to have it clairified.

Again.... the CACHE PLACER is responsible to ensure the validity of the location.

While I do agree that the HCA (Hamilton Conservation Authority) has the right to maintain it's lands as it sees fit, up until it was contacted there had not been any problems. Geocachers generally show respect for the lands that they hike on and try to have mininal impact upon the surrounding environment.

Whereas, the "party-crowd" does not, they dispose of their grabage generally where they toss it. The "dog-walkers" do not, their dogs deposit feces and urine where they please. The "mountain-bikers" do not, they ride over flora and fauna at will.

See, I can say things that annoy people too. Generalizations hurt everyone, but they sure prove my point.

MOST dog walkers 'stoop-and-scoop', MOST mountain bikers ride on the trail, and slow for hikers. Even some party people calmly sit and drink and then clean up after themselves, and maybe just maybe someday people will look at the group as a whole not just the few bad apples that no one wants arounds.

But about those bad apples...... they never make it into the pie do they?

If I wanted religious advice, I would seek a clergyman

If I wanted medical advice, I would seek a doctor

If I wanted geocaching advice, I would seek a geocacher.

I would not try to come off as an expert or even dare to suggest how to conduct any activity without being involved.

Would you like a jockey helping with your brain surgury? How about a rocket scientist to tie the bungee cord to your ankle?

Have I made my point?

:lol: The Blue Quasar

2.1k · January 18, 2004

While I do agree that the HCA (Hamilton Conservation Authority) has the right to maintain it's lands as it sees fit, up until it was contacted there had not been any problems. Geocachers generally show respect for the lands that they hike on and try to have mininal impact upon the surrounding environment.

I have to take exception to this one point you made and it's a fairly big one.

Simply because "there had not been any problems (with HCA yet)" does not mean that there is not a problem. The "Joxer's Spelunk" cache was placed not only in a Ecologically sensitive area, but a physically dangerous area as well. The "dolenes" it was placed on top of are fragile underground caverns whose ceilings often collapse under stress/weight. This cache was a problem waiting to happen whether you were cleaning up beer bottles or not.

If the hider had actually followed the GC.com rules of gaining permission, rather than just assume permission due to it being "public" land, then the cache would not have required archiving/moving when lessenergy contacted HCA and it would have been placed somewhere more agreeable to the park system and less dangerous.

I do not condone less' out-of-the-way attempts to bring HCA into this, but nor do I condone any cacher's placement of a cache in sensitive areas and on top of hidden dangers when it is avoidable.

So I just wanted to bring up the fact that up until it was contacted, there *had* been problems...they were just unseen and/or unrecognized....both avoidable.

January 18, 2004

Blue Quasar.

Sorry. I am not clear on your point. If it is that I should not have tried to talk about geocaching to the HCA Land Manager because I did not know what I was talking about then I sort of agree with you. Of course geocaching is not "brain surgury".

The thing is. I was the first person to contact her about geocaching and she asked me the questions. I never claimed to be any sort of expert with her and clearly told her that I had not geocached to that point.

You know, if any of the what 15 people(?) who had placed a cache on HCA property had actually done what each had claimed to have done (ie get permission) then she would not have needed to get any information from me at all.

Just a thought.

Les.

I Need Some Advice.

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