Geo Hot-potato 3

[+travisl]

Here's my draft of the next version of the rules. What do y'all think?

 

Puget Sound Geo Hot Potato III- Rules

 

1. Object

The object of the game is to keep "the potato" (a travel bug) in the opposing team's territory as long as possible. Points are awarded for placing the potato in the opposing team’s territory, for extra time in the opposing team’s territory, and for have the potato in the opposing team’s territory at pre-designated secret “blight times”.

 

2. Underlying principles

a) Each player and team shall endeavor to follow the spirit of the rules, and shall do their best to keep the game fun for all other players and the opposing team.

b ) All rules and traditions of geocaching shall apply. Caches should remain as unaffected as possible by this game, except for logbook entries.

c) All applicable laws, regulations, and rules shall apply, including but not limited to posted park hours, parking rules, and traffic laws.

d) No player or team shall try to conceal the potato or any cache, nor shall they engage in any attempt to deceive, mislead, or misdirect any other player or team.

 

3. Scoring

a) Each time the potato is placed in a cache in the opponent’s territory, the placing team gets 5 points

b ) Each time the potato remains in the opponent’s territory for more than 24 hours, the placing team gets one extra point for every six hour period in excess of 24 hours. Times when the cache is legally inaccessible do not count towards excess time points.

c) Each time the “blight time” occurs, the most recent placing team gets 10 points

 

4. Timing

The potato is considered “placed” at the time the placement log is posted on Geocaching.com.

 

5. Blight Time

During the game, four pre-determined “blight times” will occur. At each blight time, 10 points will be awarded to the team who most recently placed the potato.

 

6. Duration

The game will begin at noon on January 24, 2004. The game will end at midnight following February 29, 2004.

 

7. Teams

The players are divided geographically in two teams, North and South, divided by the a line along Pierce county's northern border, from the Mason/Pierce/Kitsap county point, east to SR 410. (see map)

 

8. Team membership

Team members may declare themselves members of a team before the game starts. After the game starts, team membership is determined by the location of the earliest cache in the game area that the cacher has logged on Geocaching.com.

 

9. Boundaries

The playing field is the area enclosed by a line, starting from the southwest corner:

- From the intersection of N 47° and SR 165, north along SR 165 and SR 410 into Enumclaw,

- Through Enumclaw northwest eight blocks on SR 164,

- From Enumclaw northward up SR 169 to W 122°,

- North up W 122° to I-90,

- Westward along I-90 to Lake Washington, around the northern end of Mercer Island (all of Mercer Island is on the playing field),

- then westward along I-90 to Royal Brougham Way,

- continuing straight into Elliot Bay,

- Westward along the Seattle-Bremerton ferry route, but continuing through Sinclair Inlet to the western intersection of SR 16 and SR 3 along a line from N 47.5284, W 122.69247 (in the inlet) to N 47.52532, W 122.70467 (on SR-3),

- Southwestward along SR 3 to the Kitsap/Mason county border,

- South along the Mason county border to the Pierce/Thurston/Mason county border

- Southeasterly along the Pierce county border to Fort Lewis (at the railroad crossing of the Nisqually River),

- Southeasterly along a line drawn to the intersection of SR 507 and N 47°,

- East along N 47° to SR 165

 

10. Restrictions on placement

The potato may not be placed

a) in caches for which the posted Geocaching.com coordinates are not the cache coordinates (which includes most puzzle or multi-caches),

b ) in a virtual, locationless, event, members-only, archived, or disabled cache

c) in a cache above 1500' elevation, on a military base,

d) on an indian reservation,

e) on an island with no bridge from the mainland,

f) outside of the game boundaries,

g) in a cache created or posted to Geocaching.com after the start of the game,

h) in a cache not posted on Geocaching.com,

i) in a cache with a difficulty or terrain rating exceeding four stars, or

j) in a cache that it has already been placed in during the game.

 

11. Restrictions on movement

Subject to the restrictions in the previous rule, the potato may be placed in any geocache within the game boundaries.

 

No team may make two consecutive moves, unless the potato has not moved in six days (144 hours)

 

A player may not move the potato again until five other players have moved the potato, or six days (144 hours) have passed, whichever is sooner.

 

A player may hand off the potato to a teammate. All players involved in a handoff or consecutive handoffs are considered to be the same player for purposes of waiting periods and other movement restrictions. Handoffs shall be logged as soon as possible as handoffs on the travel bug web page.

 

12. Logging movement and placement

After each move, the potato should be logged as soon as possible. Logs must include the exact time when the log is being made (not the time when the potato was placed!), because that is the time that is used to determine points.

 

13. Referee

Gaviidae will oversee the game. He may demand that the potato should be moved back to the last cache, to any other point, or allow one of the teams or players to make double move. His interpretation of the rules is final.

 

(Edit: all of my b ) became 's )

Edited January 18, 2004 by travisl

[+evergreenhiker!]

Rules seem pretty good. I like the rule regarding concealing the potato.

 

I'm not sure about the 5 player rule though. Let's keep it at a player can't make consecutive moves for a team.

 

also, if player A transfers teh potato to player B , am I right in reading that player B can make the next move for the team (after the other team makes it's move of course) since player A is considered the official mover of the ball.

[+Kfam]

nor shall they engage in any attempt to deceive, mislead, or misdirect any other player or team.

 

Can we lighten up a little on this?

 

Is there an official team declaration place?

 

Dan

[+Stump]

My thoughts:

 

1) The B ) scoring seems somewhat confusing and very unmanageable. One problem is the scorekeeper will have to know the times of the park, etc. Also what if the team has the potato in their possession during the park closing time?

 

2) Rule 10a on placement. There are some caches that the coordinates are the parking coordinates. I went to two this weekend where this was the case. The coordinates (or a description) of the cache were given in the description field. I think this was discussed somewhere in the forums (or was it an e-mail exchange). I thought the original rules stated it pretty well. But if you want to keep this new wording I'd suggest changing it to read that if the coordinates are in the description the cache is legal.

 

3) Why let a team make 2 consecutive movements?

 

4) Frequency of movement by players. Five people seems a bit excessive. I'd prefer a time based measurement, this way if your team has a slow week or something you can still get back in the game. With time based you're not waiting for other members of your team to get involved before you can again but it gives them a change to get involved too.

 

5) How do hand-offs affect the frequency of movement by players. Doesn't seem very clear. If they're considered the same player does that mean only one counts for frequency or do they both count the same?

 

6) Please add that people must announce their participation in the game to the opposing team or the ref before they can touch the potato. This can be done in the forum or via e-mail. Shouldn't hamper anyone and would save an argument.

Edited January 18, 2004 by gaviidae

[+Stump]

nor shall they engage in any attempt to deceive, mislead, or misdirect any other player or team.

 

Can we lighten up a little on this?

Yeah, I'd agree. 2B takes care of this for the most part. We do need though don't hide the TB and don't move the cache (rather than conceal the cache which is kind of the point of geocaching. If not then I have a lot of DNFs for no reason )

[+kiltsurfer]

Okay guys I have been thinking about this a lot. The key of the game is to have fun. Most of us have lives outside of Geocaching, but we also love geocaching.

 

I was working on the rules below when I saw TravisL posting, I have combine both for the following. I don't mean to over step anyone, and these are just my thoughts, but here they are.

 

As I remember the game “Hot Potato” the point of the game was catch the potato and get rid of it as soon as you can. You didn’t want to keep it at all if you could help it. The point wasn’t to find the potato it was to get rid of the potato. So let’s set up our game like the real game.

 

SHORT VERSION: Each team will place the potato in the other county for one point. The opposing team has two hours (night hours count differently) to remove the potato from the cache before giving up more points. They will then place the potato in the opposing teams area, and the game will repeat until the game is called.

 

ONE POTATO

The TB

 

TWO TEAMS

King County

Pierce County

 

RULES:

 

1. Object

The object of the game is to keep "the potato" (a travel bug) in the opposing team's territory as long as possible. Points are awarded for placing the potato in the opposing team’s territory and for extra time in the opposing team’s territory

 

2. Underlying principles

a) Each player and team shall endeavor to follow the spirit of the rules, and shall do their best to keep the game fun for all other players and the opposing team.

b ) All rules and traditions of geocaching shall apply. Caches should remain as unaffected as possible by this game, except for logbook entries.

c) All applicable laws, regulations, and rules shall apply, including but not limited to posted park hours, parking rules, and traffic laws.

d) No player or team shall try to conceal the potato or any cache, nor shall they engage in any attempt to deceive, mislead, or misdirect any other player or team.

 

3. Teams

The players are divided geographically in two teams, North and South, divided by the a line along Pierce county's northern border, from the Mason/Pierce/Kitsap county point, east to SR 410. (see map)

 

4. Team membership

Team members may declare themselves members of a team before the game starts. After the game starts, team membership is determined by the location of the earliest cache in the game area that the cacher has logged on Geocaching.com.

 

5. Boundaries

The playing field is the area enclosed by a line, starting from the southwest corner:

- From the intersection of N 47° and SR 165, north along SR 165 and SR 410 into Enumclaw,

- Through Enumclaw northwest eight blocks on SR 164,

- From Enumclaw northward up SR 169 to W 122°,

- North up W 122° to I-90,

- Westward along I-90 to Lake Washington, around the northern end of Mercer Island (all of Mercer Island is on the playing field),

- then westward along I-90 to Royal Brougham Way,

- continuing straight into Elliot Bay,

- Westward along the Seattle-Bremerton ferry route, but continuing through Sinclair Inlet to the western intersection of SR 16 and SR 3 along a line from N 47.5284, W 122.69247 (in the inlet) to N 47.52532, W 122.70467 (on SR-3),

- Southwestward along SR 3 to the Kitsap/Mason county border,

- South along the Mason county border to the Pierce/Thurston/Mason county border

- Southeasterly along the Pierce county border to Fort Lewis (at the railroad crossing of the Nisqually River),

- Southeasterly along a line drawn to the intersection of SR 507 and N 47°,

- East along N 47° to SR 165

 

6. SCORING:

1. One point is earned for placing the potato in a cache in the other county.

2. One point for each hour the potato sits in the cache after the first two. (If the potato is placed in a cache at 1:00pm, at 3:00pm the other team gets another point and again at 4:00, points will continue to be earned every hour until the TB is removed from the cache)

3. HOURS: If the potato is placed and logged before 9:59pm the above rules apply.

a. If the potato is placed between 10:00pm-11:59pm and is not picked up and logged by 3:00am only one point will be earned until 6:00am the next day. This is for the first day only.

b. If the potato is placed and logged between 12midnight-5:59am no points will no be earned for time for the first day only. If the potato is placed in a cache during this time, and is still in the cache at 7:00am, one point will be earned. As well as each hour the potato sits in the cache.

c. Parks and other hour restrictions on caches will be followed. No time points will be earned while a cache is not accessible. (if a park is closed from 7:pm-7am, no points will be earned during this time. If the potato is placed at 6:30pm and is still there at 8:30am (2 hours) the team earns one point).

4. TERRAIN: For terrain levels 1-3.5 there are no special rules. If the terrain is 4+ no points will be awarded for time. The team will only earn one point for placing the potato in the cache no other points will be earned.

5. DIFFICULTY: If the cache is a puzzle or mulit-cache no points will be earned for time. The team will only earn one point for placing the potato in the cache no other points will be earned.

6. WEATHER: If a cache is located in a location that weather effects the cache, no points will be earned for time. If the cache is located somewhere in the snow or flood area, where the terrain level jumps because of weather, then no points will be earned for time. If a cache has a terrain level 3 in the summer, but you need snow shoes to do it in winter, the level has changed. This rule if for changes of terrain based on changes the last more than a day. If an area is flooded for only a few hours one day, time still counts, but if it last for longer than 24 hours, the all time point will be removed while the cache is restricted.

7. LOGGING: All times starts and stops when the log is posted on potato tracking website.

a. When logging the potato you must include the time you were at the cache and the time of the log you are making. (example: I picked up the potato at 3:00pm from ABCD cache and I am logging this at 3:40pm……) The time starts and stops at 3:40 the time of the log. The other time if for other they my have been there right after you, so they know how much they missed you by).

b. You must also include the total number of points the potato just earned and the total score (you will be score keeper for picking up the potato). (example cont: …….The potato just earned 3 points (1 for placing the potato and 2 points for the four hours the potato was in the cache (2 free hours plus 1 point for each other hour). Current score North=5 South=5 (2+3). Tie game.

8. Self Scoring: If a team places the potato in a cache in their county, they will give points to the other team earn as if the opposing team placed it. If team south picks up the potato from Pierce County and places it in another cache in Pierce County, King County will get the points for both caches as well as points for time earned.

7. Timing

The potato is considered “placed” at the time the placement log is posted on Geocaching.com.

 

8. Duration

The game will begin at noon on January 24, 2004. The game will end at midnight following February 29, 2004.

 

9. Restrictions on placement

The Potato will not be placed in any of the following types of caches:

1. in a cache above 1500' elevation

2. on a military base

3. Virtual, Locationless, Event, Members-only, archived or disabled caches

4. on an indian reservation

5. on an island with no bridge from the mainland

6. outside of the game boundaries

7. in a cache created or posted to Geocaching.com after the start of the game

8. in a cache not posted on Geocaching.com

9. in a cache that it has already been placed in during the game.

 

10 Movement

1. A team may only move the potato when the potato is in their county. The key is not to hold the potato, you are only holding the potato when the potato is located in a cache in your county.

2. A player may not move the potato again until 5 other player on his team places the potato in a cache, (hand off are not placing it in a cache) or 5 days have pass (days are 24 hours and time starts when you place or hand off the potato. If you hand/place the cache at 2:00pm Monday you can touch the potato again Friday at 2:01pm)

3. A player may hand off to any other player on his team. Hand off do not count as placing in a cache.

 

12. Logging movement and placement

After each move, the potato should be logged as soon as possible. Logs must include the exact time when the log is being made (not the time when the potato was placed!), because that is the time that is used to determine points. You must also include the number of points just earned and the current score of each team.

 

13. Referee

Gaviidae will oversee the game. What he says goes. If there is a problem with something Gaviidae says or does, the team captains will discuss the problems with Gaviidae and the three of them will work out any problems or rule corrections. If Gaviidae and the team captains sees a problem with how this game is being played, they will be allowed to change the rules from that point forward. What was done in the pass will stay in the pass, but we will make changes to make sure the game is played fair and friendly.

 

14. Sportsmanship

This game is being played to have fun and to meet some fellow geocachers. Also to add a new level to geocaching. The Referee has the right to bench or eject any player for unsportsmanship behavior. The Referee also has the rights to impose point penalties. One point for name calling, 5 points for hiding the potato in an unfair way. If you have a question email and ask the Referee for a ruling.

[+Kfam]

About the scoring. Shouldn't the points continue to accrue until it is not only retrieved but placed back across the line again?

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

Good thing I'm lazy and live so far away. All these rules confuse these old brain cells. Have fun you guys

[+Perrin]

I like some and I don't like some. But gee isn't that a surprise. I'm sure a lot of people are thinking the same.

 

I like kiltsurfers scoring, even if it is a bit confusing/complicated. I wouldn't want to be the referee and try to keep track of that.

 

I like that you have to wait until 5 other people from your team have found the potato to a point. I like that the intent is to get more people involved in the game, but I think that there should be the waiting time also. Otherwise you could be out of the game along time.

 

I didn't really like the 6 day waiting period from Travis' rules. (Faile was disgusted by it, but then she can be a bit overly competitive sometimes . She really liked being able to move the potato around the other teams area. (Eventhough we never actually got to move the potato before the game fell apart) I guess if there isn't going to be any restriction to the distance the potato can move then we don't necessarily need to be moving it again after the initial placement.

 

I did have a thought about another rule. Once a cache is used to hold the potato then one of two things can happen. 1. Once cache X is used it can't be used again until a set number of other caches are used. Or 2. Once cache X is used it is removed from the game and can't be used for a potato drop off again. That could help spread the potato lovin around to other caches.

 

When are we going to start making the declarations?

 

Faile and I will declare for Team South right now! Hope we can get our hands on the potato this time

[+WeightMan]

I thought I might add a few random thoughts to this discussion.

 

I think the off time suggested by kiltsurfer is a great idea. One of the problems with the game was the 24/7 aspects of it. Some of us pulled early or late shifts to watch for possible placements by the other team. That contributes to the overwhelming stress of the game. Some stress is good, but too much over too long a periods of time is not.

 

As players come and go on a team based on whatever restrictions they have on their time the game will change somewhat. There are many reason why people's schedule will change over the course of the game. Making the game last too long will cause problems here. If I had been thinking that far ahead, I would have realized that this game would last into April and I will not be available most of March. Making the game shorter has some benefits. A series of games over the year might give other people the chance to play. I would not want a game always going on, but one every three months lasting for a month might be reasonable.

 

We do need a specified period of time prior to the start of the game for players to declare and for the team to organize. I would suggest at least a week.

 

I like kiltsufer's scoring, but it would have to be simplified if possible. It does seem horribly complicated. Perhaps some people might try to get the same scoring idea done with a simpler set of rules on scoring.

 

As I recall Criminal suggested raising the elevation maximum to 3000 feet. I don't normally pay that much attention to the elevation of a cache, but it seems that several good caches are on Cougar Mtn. and I suspect most of those are above 1500 feet. There should be a maximum higher than 1500 feet. 14,000 is too high. There ought to be a reasonable number in there someplace.

 

Cache ratings are somewhat arbitrary, but we should rule out fives for either category. I would suggest that we also place a limit on the total of the two ratings with a maximum in each category. I would suggest a total of six with neither rating higher than 4. So if a cache has a terrain rating of four, then the difficulty could not be higher than 2.

 

Gaviidae made a good point that I mentioned yesterday as well. Sometimes the parking coordinates are listed as the coordinates of the cache, but the actual coordinates are on the cache page in the description. Those caches should be allowed. I would also include a cache like Twin Peaks #1 which has the parking coordinates and the actual coordinates are found at the one waypoint. Another multi that should be included is Nippon Sakura Hana. It is not a puzzle, but the final coordinates are hidden at the first waypoint. I am not sure how to word a rule that would include this type of cache, but disallow multis such as Alki Tour #2. Perhaps the rule should say that multi caches are allowed if the final coordinates are available, without decoding, at the only intermediate waypoint. We should also state that the coordinates must be available in plain text wherever they are found. Fledermaus has one at Shold Farm that has the coordinates on the cache page, but they are most assuredly not in plain text. I can think of a BuffyAndFamily cache or two that is the same way.

 

One thing that needs to be ironed out it the waiting period which a player must sit out after making a play. I'm not sure I see the need for this. After each team makes a play, the other team must then respond. If there is going to be a limitation then it should be small. After a play is made by the opposing team, the last player(s) to make a pick up and drop have to wait 24 hours to give other teammates a chance to get involved.

 

Just a few random ideas. Take 'em or leave 'em.

[+planetrobert]

Good thing I'm lazy and live so far away. All these rules confuse these old brain cells. Have fun you guys

yeah you are lazy... but i think a jackson/klamath county version of this would be cool. a lot of work but cool. it is an interesting twist to GC

[+travisl]

OK, first, the updated draft of the rules (final draft to be posted Wednesday night). Next, an explanation of the changes, and an explanation of some changes I didn't make. Finally, an invitation to the Puget Sound Geo Hot Potato Pre-Game Dinner.

 

First, the rules. Changes from the first post in this thread are marked in blue.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Puget Sound Geo Hot Potato III- Rules

 

1. Object

The object of the game is to keep "the potato" (a travel bug) in the opposing team's territory as long as possible. Points are awarded for placing the potato in the opposing team’s territory, for extra time in the opposing team’s territory, and for have the potato in the opposing team’s territory at pre-designated secret “blight times”.

 

2. Underlying principles

a) Each player and team shall endeavor to follow the spirit of the rules, and shall do their best to keep the game fun for all other players and the opposing team.

b ) All rules and traditions of geocaching shall apply. Caches should remain as unaffected as possible by this game, except for logbook entries.

c) All applicable laws, regulations, and rules shall apply, including but not limited to posted park hours, parking rules, and traffic laws.

d) No player or team shall try to conceal the potato or any cache, nor shall they engage in any attempt to deceive, mislead, or misdirect any other player or team.

 

3. Scoring

a) Each time the potato is placed in a cache in the opponent’s territory, the placing team gets 5 points

b ) Each time the potato remains in the opponent’s territory for more than 24 hours, the placing team gets one extra point for every six hour period in excess of 24 hours. Times when the cache is legally inaccessible do not count towards excess time points, if brought to the attention of the referee within 24 hours or pickup from that cache.

c) Each time the “blight time” occurs, the most recent placing team gets 10 points

 

4. Timing

The potato is considered “placed” at the time the placement log is posted on Geocaching.com.

 

5. Blight Time

During the game, four pre-determined “blight times” will occur. At each blight time, 10 points will be awarded to the team who most recently placed the potato.

 

6. Duration

The game will begin at noon on January 24, 2004. The game will end at midnight following February 29, 2004.

 

7. Teams

The players are divided geographically in two teams, North and South, divided by the a line along Pierce county's northern border, from the Mason/Pierce/Kitsap county point, east to SR 410. (see map)

 

8. Team membership

Team members may declare themselves members of a team before the game starts in the proper discussion thread in the Groundspeak "Northwest" forum. After the game starts, team membership is determined by the location of the earliest cache in the game area that the cacher has logged on Geocaching.com. Players must announce team participation in the forum or in an e-mail to the referee before they may touch the potato.

 

9. Boundaries

The playing field is the area enclosed by a line, starting from the southwest corner:

- From the intersection of N 47° and SR 165, north along SR 165 and SR 410 into Enumclaw,

- Through Enumclaw northwest eight blocks on SR 164,

- From Enumclaw northward up SR 169 to W 122°,

- North up W 122° to I-90,

- Westward along I-90 to Lake Washington, around the northern end of Mercer Island (all of Mercer Island is on the playing field),

- then westward along I-90 to Royal Brougham Way,

- continuing straight into Elliot Bay,

- Westward along the Seattle-Bremerton ferry route, but continuing through Sinclair Inlet to the western intersection of SR 16 and SR 3 along a line from N 47.5284, W 122.69247 (in the inlet) to N 47.52532, W 122.70467 (on SR-3),

- Southwestward along SR 3 to the Kitsap/Mason county border,

- South along the Mason county border to the Pierce/Thurston/Mason county border

- Southeasterly along the Pierce county border to Fort Lewis (at the railroad crossing of the Nisqually River),

- Southeasterly along a line drawn to the intersection of SR 507 and N 47°,

- East along N 47° to SR 165

 

10. Restrictions on placement

The potato may not be placed

a) in caches for which the posted Geocaching.com coordinates are not the cache coordinates (which includes most puzzle or multi-caches), unless the actual coordinates are clearly and unambigously available within the cache description (such as when the parking coordinates are given at the top of the page)

b ) in a virtual, locationless, event, members-only, archived, or disabled cache

c) in a cache above 1500' elevation, on a military base,

d) on an indian reservation,

e) on an island with no bridge from the mainland,

f) outside of the game boundaries,

g) in a cache created or posted to Geocaching.com after the start of the game,

h) in a cache not posted on Geocaching.com,

i) in a cache with a difficulty or terrain rating exceeding four stars, or

j) in a cache that it has already been placed in during the [blue]previous ten moves[/blue].

 

11. Restrictions on movement

Subject to the restrictions in the previous rule, the potato may be placed in any geocache within the game boundaries.

 

No team may make two consecutive moves, unless the potato has not moved in six days (144 hours), or if the cache is in their own territory. This allows for the rare instance in which a team places the potato in their own territory.

 

A player may not move the potato again until five other players (generally, but not always, two teammates and three opponents) have moved the potato, or six days (144 hours) have passed, whichever is sooner.

 

A player may hand off the potato to a teammate. All players involved in a handoff or consecutive handoffs are considered to be the same player for purposes of waiting periods and other movement restrictions. Handoffs shall be logged as soon as possible as handoffs on the travel bug web page.

 

12. Logging movement and placement

After each move, the potato should be logged as soon as possible. Logs must include the exact time when the log is being made (not the time when the potato was placed!), because that is the time that is used to determine points.

 

13. Referee

Gaviidae will oversee the game. His rules and demands should hold the ideals of geocaching first, common civility second, and the rules of this game third. He may demand that the potato should be moved back to the last cache, to any other point, or allow one of the teams or players to make double move. His interpretation of the rules is final. He is all-powerful during this game, and may amend, add to, break, or selectively enforce any of these rules.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Next, an explanation.

 

Rule 3b, amended to put the burden on the finder to alert the ref that the cache was inaccessible during, e.g., park closing hours.

 

Rule 8, clarifying where and how to announce team membership and the fact that you're playing.

 

Rule 10a, allowing placement in caches with parking coordinates as the posted coordinates, if the actual coordinates are in the text of the page (e.g., Got Change For a Sand Dollar)

 

Rule 10j, allowing the potato to return to a cache if there's been ten intervening placements (the proposed rule was no returns at all).

 

Rule 11, allowing the same team to make consecutive moves, if necessary to get the potato out of their territory. A strange circumstance that should never happen, but it might. Also, clarifying the "wait for 5 players or 6 days" rule, to explain that it's five total players, not just five teammates.

 

Rule 13, giving the ref almost unlimited power.

 

Some changes I didn't make, suggested in this thread. EvergreenHiker wrote,

I'm not sure about the 5 player rule though. Let's keep it at a player can't make consecutive moves for a team.

 

The rule as I've written it requires two teammates to touch it first, instead of just one, as you proposed. This should allow more people to be involved.

 

EvergreenHiker asked,

if player A transfers teh potato to player B , am I right in reading that player B can make the next move for the team (after the other team makes it's move of course) since player A is considered the official mover of the ball.

If by '"player A transfers" you means "player A hands off", then no, neither A nor B may make the next move for the team until five other players (usually including two teammates) move the potato.

 

Gaviidae asked,

Why let a team make 2 consecutive movements?

 

In case a teammate makes a mistake, I suppose. Or if it's placed in a cache that nobody else can find, they can go back and get it. It'd be very rare.

 

And regarding frequency of movement by players, Gaviidae asked,

I'd prefer a time based measurement, this way if your team has a slow week or something you can still get back in the game. ... [in the case of a hand off,] if they're considered the same player does that mean only one counts for frequency or do they both count the same?

 

There is a six day maximum, so if a team does really die out, it can still be moved. Chances at a win are slim, though. In the case of a handoff, they both count the same. See my above answer to EGH.

 

Regarding "lightening up on 'nor shall they engage in any attempt to deceive, mislead, or misdirect any other player or team'": Rule 2B ("Caches should remain as unaffected as possible by this game") doesn't cover this entirely. I could conceivably carpet bomb a cache site with filled tupperware containers, and it'd take the finder hours to find the right one. I could post a message to the next finder saying I'm dropping it in cache A at noon, and really place it in cache B at 10:00.

 

Kiltsurfer's scoring is very well thought out, and his logging instructions would make it possible to score correctly, but I fear that they're way too complex and leave far too much room for error.

 

Weightman and others suggested raising the maximum elevation. My fear is that a cache above 1500 feet might get snowed in this time of year, and be inaccessible due to weather without 5-star equipment.

 

Weightman also wrote,

I would also include a cache like Twin Peaks #1 which has the parking coordinates and the actual coordinates are found at the one waypoint

 

The problem with this is we can't tell from looking at any given multi-cache's description whether there's a 100 foot hike or a ten mile drive involved in getting to the second waypoint. Or if the start and end of the cache is in different counties. It's easier just to skip multi's altogether. There's enough others.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Finally, an invitation. Come to the Puget Sound Geo Hot Potato Pre-Game Dinner on Thursday night, 6:00. Meet some of your teammates and competitors, laugh about the antics of the short-lived round two, and find out where the Enumclaw area boundary really is (answer: the map is off; the text description is correct).

 

Whew. That took a long time to get in. Hope the forums can take such a long post.

[+romulusnr]

Travis, I don't know if it's because you're a lawyer, or if it's your sense of sarcasm, but that is just way too many rules.

 

Travis' rules are four pages long at normal page width. Kiltsurfer's suggested rules are 6 pages long. In comparison, the original 2002-2003 game's rules were 3 and a half pages long at half page width.

 

Nobody who is into this for a hobby wants to have to memorize 4 to 6 pages of stern rules in order to play.

 

I stand by my recommendations as sufficient to create a game that will both ensure fair play, ensure possibilities for recovery, and keep the game FUN.

 

1. The game piece must be in plain sight, in the main compartment of the cache in which it is placed.

 

2. Game time stops at 1 AM midnight and begins again at 5 AM. Any time-based action in the game (e.g. the three-hour rule) must be based around (not through) this period. No points are scored during this period. (This of course also makes the point math much easier...!)

 

3. The game piece cannot be moved more than X miles at once. But for each consecutive day beyond X consecutive days that the game piece has been played in the same territory, the defending team gains an extra mile to their limit for moving the piece.

 

I would also suggest no handoffs, but there's perfectly good alternatives to that concern that work just as well.

 

Now look, I'm usually a terribly long-winded person, but I've managed to put out some IMHO very helpful rule changes, and done it in less than half a page.

[+WeightMan]

Travis, Thanks for taking the time to consider the various thoughts that have been presented here. I appreciate your reasoning and applaud it. The one item that might be considered is the portion of kiltsurfer's proposal to not count time between midnight and 6AM. One of the problems faced by the team without the potato last time was the possibility of a late night placement requiring someone to keep watch overnight. Most of us were not able to do that and it would relieve much of the stress if there was a lockout time period like that.

[+travisl]

I don't know if it's because you're a lawyer ... but that is just way too many rules

 

Yeah, it's my lawyerness. Trying to cover every possible situation, I guess. Problem is, you guys are just so dang creative. Short is good, but, at least in my opinion, it's better to have somewhere to check to see if what you're about to do is legal.

 

One of the problems faced by the team without the potato last time was the possibility of a late night placement requiring someone to keep watch overnight.

 

True, there's a motivation to get it out of your hands ASAP, because you'll get points sooner, and you don't want it in your territory at a "blight time". It's no longer a race against the other team to get it, though.

 

The way it's written now, I can see the possiblity of the potato bouncing back and forth insanely fast, picked up and placed six, eight, ten times a day. That's definitely a hot potato!

 

Should it stay with this insanely fast possibility (I'm really going to miss my wife ), or should we make it a daylight hours only game?

[+Stump]

Thanks, Travis. I'm going to be late (like an hour) to the event but I should be able to make it.

 

On first glance, I'm a little uncomfortable with rule 14 giving the ref almost "unlimited power" but in further consideration I think I like it. It "should" make people ask permission first before they push the limits of the rules which would make this a friendlier game. I think some of the complaints would have been minimized if before they happened a ruling had been made. It's always easy to yell unfair when the other team does something out of the ordinary. If they expect it I think that would take the initial shock out of it.

 

Regarding the midnight to 6 am blackout I think it's a good idea. This is what got the one cache archived and most parks are officially closed during this time. It's just not a good idea to have people out and about during this time. Still count it in the original 24 hours but not in the 6 hour penalty time. I also think it would fall under rule 2 b about gc traditions.

[+Stump]

Travis, I don't know if it's because you're a lawyer, or if it's your sense of sarcasm, but that is just way too many rules.

There aren't that many rules if you look at them. Boundaries and restrictions on placement is a good portion of the rules. You need both of those (for some reason we're not doing a strict King vs Pierce game. Why is that Travis?).

 

Need to keep Team Membership rules in place. That was a problem during the last game.

 

Restrictions on movement may be a bit long-winded but the attempt is to get increase the number of people involved. These may need to be simplified after this game but they're there for a reason.

 

Underlying principles are necessary because of what happened last game.

 

Travis could have even made them longer. I noticed web-cams aren't listed as a forbidden cache.

[+WeightMan]

Travis could have even made them longer. I noticed web-cams aren't listed as a forbidden cache.

I can see it now. Pierce County hid the potato inside a fish at Pike Place.

[+travisl]

...And then King County retaliates by sticking it to the outside of the Link light rail. (GCH3NT)

 

Yeah, webcam caches are out.

[+travisl]

In an offline e-mail, someone pointed out that the current boundaries might be unfair to the King County team, because getting to their Port Orchard territory is a lot more challenging for them than it would be for any Pierce County team member. I tend to agree.

 

I considered making the Thurston and Snohomish county lines as boundaries, but this adds another 12 north/south miles to King County territory. There's a larger concentration of cachers up there, though, so perhaps this offsets.

 

I'm also considering keeping Kitsap county out of this, but there's a lot of active peninsula cachers.

 

What would be your concerns if we extended the boundaries north to the Snohomish County line, and split Kitsap as we did in Hot Potato 1. This would extend the King/Snohomish county line west to SR-3, then follow SR3 down through Gorst to the Mason/Kitsap county line. Everything west/south of this would be in play, everything east/north would be out.

 

The dividing line would move. Instead of following the Pierce County border to the Mason/Kitsap/Pierce intersection, it would continue up past Vashon Island and follow the current north border along the Bremerton ferry route continuing to Gorst.

 

What do y'all think? I'll try to come up with an explanatory map tonight.

[+WeightMan]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my interpretation of this is to include most of Kitsap County with the Pierce County team. If placing the bug in caches on the peninsula are counted with the south team, then it sounds fine to me. While I have a few finds in that area it is a hassle to get there. From my house to Port Orchard is about an hour driving through Tacoma. I don't want to have to get to there, but would be willing to go to place a bug in a cache.

 

While I am typing I will declare myself for the King County team as long as it means I can go traipsing about some park or other for a few hours every few days. If this gets as intense as part 2, then I will have to step aside. My health is more important that a game.

[+Stump]

If the map is changed so that Kitsap county is part of Team South's territory that seems fine with me. If it's stays part of Team North's territory I don't really understand it but if Team North is fine with it that's fine with me.

 

Or maybe a seperate game going on at the same time, Pierce vs Kitsap.

[+vds]

Travis:

 

What if you had a simple rectangle based on lat/lon boundaries for your home zones ? That would remove any county boundaries of course, but would make pocket queries (or reducing the data with gpswatch or the like) easier.

 

Also, the thought struck me that you might want to consider a restriction where a hider isn't permitted to hide the cache in one of their own caches. Consider if hypothetically criminal had one of his night caches in another zone. He'd likely know the back door entrance to the cache, making the hide part a little too easy maybe ?

 

Dunno if it matters much, but there are likely some pretty tough caches in play, talk about your home field advantage (consider a single hide like one of moun10bike's Leonardo's Templates or that kind of level hiding).

[+Stump]

Also, the thought struck me that you might want to consider a restriction where a hider isn't permitted to hide the cache in one of their own caches.

I understand the reasoning but it seems like it's adding yet another rule without getting much in return. Someone that has found the cache is just as likely to know a back door to the cache. So unless you want to limit it to caches that you've never found I don't think it's a good rule.

 

Also, most caches you hide are going to be on your home turf so you won't be hiding anything there anyway. As in your example, Criminal won't be hiding any in his night caches because they're in his territory and it would just be a really bad move. And we all know Criminal is much smarter than that.

[+travisl]

Here's my idea:

 

So, the options are go with this, go with the same territory as round 2, or go with the same territory as round 2 but lop off anything west of the sound altogether.

[+WeightMan]

I can't speak for other players, but my preference would be to lop off the area west of the sound. The area west of the sound is very difficult for those living east of the sound to get to. There weren't any players in either game north of Olalla as far as I can tell. My suggestion in an earlier thread would be to have a separate game for the West Sound folks.

[+evergreenhiker!]

Since I'm up North, the first option is cool.

[+travisl]

OK, how's this?

 

[+Wander Lost]

That looks perfect!

[+Stump]

OK, how's this?

Great. But a couple of questions.

 

1) Why did you include Vashon Island? It is out of bounds, correct? Doesn't really matter, just makes it more confusing.

 

2) Why not include Gig Harbor?

 

Or I guess why not just make the N/S/W boundaries the county lines and the East boundary a line following whatever line you have it doing now?

 

BTW - Went to the Harlem Globetrotters game tonight and got to see firsthand the highest quality of refereeing. So expect a higher standard of refereeing the next game.

[+travisl]

Re: Vashon. Yeah, it's out of bounds. I included it on the map because it was easier to follow the county line, and a lot easier to describe in text. I'd have preferred to erase it entirely, making a blue hole in the sound, but never got around to it.

 

Re: Gig Harbor. In the end, I realized I needed to either include the peninsula, or not. If I include Gig Harbor, why not Purdy? Then why not Port Orchard? Then why not Bremerton? The few people who expressed an opinion desired to not have it, so I didn't. Of course, Gig Harborites should still play -- we need you on our team. Even Criminal

Edited January 22, 2004 by travisl

[+Happy Gillmore]

Please include the peninsula. I thought this was King vs. Pierce county game. Lets keep those boarders.

 

A lot of our team live on the penisula. We do have players who live in Bremerton, Ollala, etc. Let's make them feel welcomed too. If we take the boarders to the westerly Pierce county line then we have a better chance of getting more members involved since they would be closer to caches where the TB might be dropped off.

 

One thing about caching is it takes you places you might not have gone otherwise. I live in Gig Harbor. It is beautiful out here. There are 44 caches within a five mile radius of my house. That is plenty for the game.

 

My vote is to include the penisula for this "north/south" game.

[+WeightMan]

How about running the western boundary from the sound along the Pierce/Kitsap county line to just past SR16. I think that would be Burley Creek if I recall correctly. Follow that waterway down to Carr Inlet and thence out Carr Inlet to the latest proposed border. Our problem in King County was the inclusion of Kitsap County that requires a long drive through Pierce County or a ferry ride at their high prices. I'm quite sure that we would not place caches as far south as Case Inlet, but this change includes most of the population of Pierce County west of the sound.

[+Happy Gillmore]

I agree with weightman, let's use the Kitsap/Pierce county boarder the west boarder. This allows players from Kitsap and Pierce county to play in their backyard and no one will need to drive or take a ferry to Kitsap county. Seems fair all around.

[+Blue Heron]

"that requires a long drive through Pierce County or a ferry ride at their high prices"

 

The exact same thing applies to those of us who live on the Peninsula, yet some of our cachers were among the most active in the last (aborted) game. Whether or not the potato is ever placed in a Peninsula cache (would that make it a "PC" drop?) it makes us feel sort of like second-class citizens to be excluded from a Pierce-King game when we LIVE in Pierce County!

 

When the new Bridge opens with it's $5 tolls, it'll be a different story!

[+CrimsonWrath]

Sits pouting at the Hood Canal Bridge...

 

Nah. No big deal to me. I'd like a chance to play, but will be happy just to watch. Something to think about: It isn't necessary for each player to cover the entire field. Shouldn't matter that I can't get to Redmond or Tacoma... or vise versa. As long as teammates are active in the local territories, the whole region should be defendable.

[+travisl]

Your wish = my command:

[+Happy Gillmore]

Good work TravisL on the boundries. It looks like the north team now has several more possible locations to try to stump the south.

 

I'll see everyone tonight at the pre-game meeting.

[+GeoDiver/GeoGrammy]

I, too would vote for this most recent border change...to include the Pierce County portion of the peninsula. The PC team definitely has some active players in that area and there are some great caches there, too.

 

Looking forward to meeting folks tonight at Round Table.

 

Rick

[+Blue Heron]

Thanks for changing the boundaries, Travis. I feel more included now!

 

See everyone tonight, as soon as we can get there. (There's that long drive through Pierce County again!

[+Drinksmith]

Maybe it's just me, but isn't the north territory significantly larger, and with a higher concentration of caches? Is there a way to even this up without it being too complicated? Just my opinion...

[+travisl]

Yeah, I noticed that too, but it's also got a higher concentration of cachers. It was some northerners who asked for the expansion of their territory, so although it's not the best strategy (like team south expanding into the peninsula), I'm willing to oblige.

 

I realized this morning why my rule 11 modification -- allowing consecutive moves by a team in its territory -- is a good rule to keep. For example, a cacher from the far northern reaches of King County might get the potato, carry it partway down, and place it in a Kent cache. If they don't have a good communication system set up to do a handoff, logging it into a cache is a good way to tell other Kingons that the potato's ready to hop further south.

 

Then again, it gives notice to both teams that the potato is ready to move.

 

I need to modify scoring just a tad, so that a Pierce County team placing the potato in a Pierce County cache doesn't earn points for being "the most recent placing team" at a blight time. I should re-phrase it to "the opposite territory's team".

[+travisl]

A few edits after tonight's meeting. Changes in blue:

 

3... c) Each time the “blight time” occurs, the team who neither has possession of the potato nor has the potato in their territory gets 10 points

 

...

 

5. Blight Time

During the game, four pre-determined “blight times” will occur.  At each blight time, 10 points will be awarded to the team who neither has possession of the potato nor has the potato in their territory.

 

6. Duration

The game will begin at 8:00 a.m.on January 24, 2004.  The game will end at midnight following February 29, 2004.

Edited January 23, 2004 by travisl

[+NomadRaven]

Hey, Travis! Is that 10 a.m. or 8 a.m. on Saturday? I heard 8, but you put 10 here and 8 in your log for the event.

 

Just need to know how late to set the alarm!

[+Stump]

Is that 10 a.m. or 8 a.m. on Saturday? I heard 8, but you put 10 here and 8 in your log for the event.

It's 8 AM. Or at least as close to 8 AM as Kitelady logs it.

[+travisl]

You must be mistaken. My good friend the Iraqi Information Minister tells me that my earlier message has always said 8:00.

[+Perrin]

When are we going to get a thread to post which team we want to declare for?

[+Stump]

When are we going to get a thread to post which team we want to declare for?

There's a new thread now but unless you're changing teams or just signing up no need to declare.

[+CatDog&Pups]

Ok I have heard a lot about this Hot Potato but there is so much to read. When is the next one, how can I join, and how can I get a break down of the rules. There seems to be so much to read.

[+Stump]

Ok I have heard a lot about this Hot Potato but there is so much to read. When is the next one, how can I join, and how can I get a break down of the rules. There seems to be so much to read.

The basics of the game are relatively simple: if the travel bug is in your teams territory pick it up and move it.

 

The full rules are at Potato Rules

 

If you live in the King/Pierce area it's not too late to play this game. It just started.