Self Limiting Caches

7.2k · February 9, 2004

I heard recently the person who placed the first cache thought the concept was a mistake. Instead of "take something, leave something, sign log" it should have been "take something, leave nothing, sign log."

How it was explained to me was the concept is to stock your cache and the finders simply take something out of the cache and sign the log. They don't leave anything. The last person takes the container out with them.

The particulars are unclear, but it actually seems like a good idea for some circumstances.

However, I've not found a reference to this online. Can anyone verify or disprove this was said?

Regardless, a self limiting cache may be an answer to some problems, mainly the issue of maintenance-- including vacation caches, trading up, and more. The particulars would have to be hammered out, like does the person who takes the last item take the container too or does the person who finds the container empty? What happens to the logbook? Does a cache that "goes bad" before the items are depleted simply get trashed out?

Like I said, this seems like the answer to quite a few problems.

Thoughts?

(Disclaimer: not saying the whole concept should be changed. I wouldn't want the "perpetual cache" to go away.)

3.8k · February 9, 2004

Sounds like a good idea. The log book could become a travel bug with the goal of getting to a cache of your choosing for you to recover. After the last person gets a free cache container to recycle they just start the logTB on its way:D

February 9, 2004

I like it too, then the park or general location can be recycled by another player too. ( new cache, new coords, same park ) I think it's a great idea.

38.2k · February 9, 2004

From Dave Ulmer's Usenet post on 5/2/00, the one that started geocaching:

-- Now that SA is off we can start a worldwide Stash Game!! With Non-SA
accuracy is should be easy to find someone's stash from waypoint information.

Waypoints of secret stashes could be shared on the Internet, people could

navigate to the stashes and get some stuff. The only rule would for stashes

is: Get some Stuff, Leave some Stuff!!

Have Fun!!

Dave...

And if there is still any confusion, here is his follow-up post on the next day:

The Great American GPS Stash Hunt !!

-- Now that SA is off we can start a worldwide Stash Game!! With

Non-SA accuracy it should be easy to find a stash from waypoint

information. Waypoints of secret stashes could be shared on the

Internet, people could navigate to the stashes and get some

stuff. The only rule for stashes is: Get some Stuff, Leave some

Stuff!! The more valuable the stuff the more stashes will be

started.

I'm thinking of half burying a five gallon plastic bucket with

lid at the stash point. Putting in some stuff. Adding a logbook

and pencil so visitors can record their find. The log should

contain: Date, Time, What you got, and What you put in. Scanning

the log book should give you a quick inventory of the stash.

I'll look for a place near a road where few people would

normally go... Put in some cash, an old digital camera, and some

antique silverware!! I will come up with a cool name for my

stash and post coordinates soon!!!

Make your own stash in a unique location, put in some stuff and

a log book. Post the location on the Internet. Soon we will have

thousands of stashes all over the world to go searching for.

Have Fun!!

Dave...

The early history of the sport...through the usenet posts that started it all is here.

Edited February 9, 2004 by briansnat

3.8k · February 9, 2004

wow we have loads more rules than that now :huh: :lol:

2.2k · February 9, 2004

i'm with Brian on this one. i like trading. :lol:

1.8k · February 9, 2004

If the caches were temporary, where the last person to take an item then takes the cache, it would make geocaching a little more difficult. What if you had a list of (10) caches to visit and that day someone took half of them because the trade items ran out? It would not be as much fun IMO.

24.7k · February 9, 2004

I think this is one of those exceptions that prove the rule. While I can only think of one application (self limiting caches for events) there are problably others where this would be handy. But they would be the exceptions to normal caching as it has evolved.

38.2k · February 9, 2004

i'm with Brian on this one. i like trading

The point of my post wasn't to support trading (though I do). It was to provide the historical background that CoyoteRed was asking for.

Anyway, I think that the self limiting cache may qualify as a temporary cache and not be permissable under the current guidelines. It would be a good idea to run it by an admin before you try it.

Edited February 9, 2004 by briansnat

February 9, 2004

The early history of the sport...through the usenet posts that started it all is here.

Very interesting reading. Of course, I had to check and see if there's still a cache at the original location. There is, but it isn't the same one... :lol:

February 9, 2004

Though the concept of a "self-limiting' cache is an interesting one, I like the idea of the traditional established cache better. And, for the most part, I like to trade.

There's my opinion, such as it is.

Happy caching and stuff! :lol:

7.2k · February 9, 2004

I've seen the posts by David Ulmer referring to the trading. However, this is not the first time I've heard something like this. The other time was something to the effect "the creator of geocaching said what he started was a mistake." It was so long ago I can't remember the source on that one, though.

5.7k · February 9, 2004

There have been a few examples of self limiting caches placed by a local bay area cacher. At the time, there was no rule that didn't allow temporary caches. Now there is. It's somewhat of a shame, because these caches happen to be some of the more memorable caches I've done. Here are a few examples. If you read the logs, you'll see that they were well loved caches:

Enchanted Crystals

Geo Birds

Gnome's Home

--Marky

4.8k · February 9, 2004

I can see circumstances where a self-limiting cache could be useful if they were allowed. For example, some parks already place limits on the amount of time a cache can be in place. Perhaps some parks that ban caches would allow self limiting ones.

February 9, 2004

So..............If i have this straight, the number of allowable finders would be posted on the cache page. If I am going to look for this I need to check how many times it's been visited. I must then assume that all visits have been logged on line. If it is set up for ten and nine cachers have visited it already, I may not find anything if I am right behind number 10. So then I have no idea if I am missing it or if it has been muggled. How about those that never log their finds on line? What if some-one takes two items from the cache in one visit? It can then be pulled by number nine unless he reads all the entrys in the log. I'll admit that is not insurmountable with a numbered log in the cache, but we all know how sloppy some folks are about logging and trades. What if one visitor leaves an item in the cache anyway and now number 10, who should pull the cache, doesn't because he doesn't realize what number he is and there is still a trade item left? If I find it and I am actually number 11, but it's still there, do I get credit from the hider for a find? With a date of expiration I will at least know not to look for this cache past the given time.

7.2k · February 9, 2004

I think the idea is if you want to take an item you can. You're not required to take one. If the cache is empty, then it's run its life and the next finder takes the cache and logs it as should be archived. That person now has a container which may or may not be suitable for use as another cache. (All but very few of our caches are ammo cans.)

The idea intrigues me more and more as I think of it.

For instance, it would actually be more of a challenge finding the cache. While I know not everyone is of the same mindset as I, but I like not knowing the cache is there. You will have the idea in the back of your mind it may be gone. You have to ask yourself, do you keep going or is it an exercise in futility? This might even result in less "scorched earth" hunting tactics.

There will be more of a urgency to get one of these caches. If the hider doesn't put how many items he's put in then it's a guess of how long it will last.

The caches referenced above by Marky look very interesting. A hider can develop a series of short-run items. It would be a game to collect said items knowing they are limited and others are looking out for them, as well. (Assuming some joker doesn't just take them all.) A creative cacher could get a reputation of putting out collectible cache items. I see that as being popular.

The TSLN concept could solve quite a few problems. The idea now is the cache belongs to one person or group. But with a TSLN cache the placer knows it's of a limited life. By expecting people to not put anything in the cache, there's no hard feelings for cheapskates not trading fairly, possibily fewer instances of trash in caches, and if the cache is ruined for whatever reason, it shouldn't be any trouble of just taking the cache out with you and posting the cache life had been shortened. Resulting in less geotrash. No more leaving it, multiple email to owners and TPTB, and then an additional trip out to the area.

This actually solves a good number of problems.

As mentioned above a good number of people like trading, but another segment don't like trading at all. I'm sure many people would still opt to put out trading caches even if TPTB elected to support the TSLN concept.

Like I said, the more I think about it, the more I like it.

Edited February 9, 2004 by CoyoteRed

2k · February 9, 2004

A specific case I can think of that would be great would be a seed cache. When all the babies are gone the LTF re-hides the mother cache. I wonder if this would get by the approvers? Or would the three month rule apply?

February 9, 2004

I had a similar idea in my mind for a few days already, but I waited till I can check with the local admin & with local cache game players. The tentative name is "3 finds & it's out". You will have to find a series of say 10 limited-life stashes, the more and the faster, the better.

The cache would be an event cache, most likely (let's call it a mothership cache, as it is a host to the limited-life stashes). At any given time, it will point to the current location of a container with 3 code tokens and a mini-logbook. It will also have the list and ranking of players.

The first finder gets the red token, posts its code in the log, and scores 3 points and a find of the Mothership cache.

The second finder gets the green token, posts its code in the log, and scores 2 points and a find of the Mothership cache.

The 3rd finder gets the blue token worth 1 point, and once it's logged, I will disable the cache, retrieve the container, re-hide it with 3 new tokens, and re-start the next round.

Anybody finding the token container after the 3rd finder but before it was retrieved just gets a find of the Mothership cache.

One can also leave goodies, which in this case will travel from one temp location to another.

Once all the rounds are complete, there will be a real Event with congrats and prizes.

There might be multiple variations, e.g.

- the token container may or may not be limited to the insides of existing caches;

- the "mothership" cache may be posted at the future final location of the token container, once the game is over, rather than as an event;

- the tokens may be nice keepsakes rather than just strips of laminated colored paper;

- there might be a time limit for the finders of the token container, just to keep the game going if the challenge is too strong to have 3 finds in reasonable time

- etc.

2.4k · February 10, 2004

There are or have been several of these type caches in my area. The owner just places stuff there and says on the cache page to take one (of whatever is there), sign the log, and leave nothing. One cache had canes the owner had hand-made, and it was so popular he keeps restocking it. Lots of people find it, sign the log, and say they already have a cane, and leave them for later cachers. One cache was designed specifically for local cachers, and the owner put markers in the cache with names on them, giving the location of another cache with one item, specifically for one finder. AFAIK few were taken by other people.

The concept isn't new, and is already in practice. One cache type I'm considering is here. This seems like it would be lots of fun.

Edited February 10, 2004 by NightPilot

1.1k · February 10, 2004

I think the idea is if you want to take an item you can. You're not required to take one. If the cache is empty, then it's run its life and the next finder takes the cache and logs it as should be archived. That person now has a container which may or may not be suitable for use as another cache. (All but very few of our caches are ammo cans.)

The idea intrigues me more and more as I think of it.

For instance, it would actually be more of a challenge finding the cache. While I know not everyone is of the same mindset as I, but I like not knowing the cache is there. You will have the idea in the back of your mind it may be gone. You have to ask yourself, do you keep going or is it an exercise in futility? This might even result in less "scorched earth" hunting tactics.

There will be more of a urgency to get one of these caches. If the hider doesn't put how many items he's put in then it's a guess of how long it will last.

The caches referenced above by Marky look very interesting. A hider can develop a series of short-run items. It would be a game to collect said items knowing they are limited and others are looking out for them, as well. (Assuming some joker doesn't just take them all.) A creative cacher could get a reputation of putting out collectible cache items. I see that as being popular.

The TSLN concept could solve quite a few problems. The idea now is the cache belongs to one person or group. But with a TSLN cache the placer knows it's of a limited life. By expecting people to not put anything in the cache, there's no hard feelings for cheapskates not trading fairly, possibily fewer instances of trash in caches, and if the cache is ruined for whatever reason, it shouldn't be any trouble of just taking the cache out with you and posting the cache life had been shortened. Resulting in less geotrash. No more leaving it, multiple email to owners and TPTB, and then an additional trip out to the area.

This actually solves a good number of problems.

As mentioned above a good number of people like trading, but another segment don't like trading at all. I'm sure many people would still opt to put out trading caches even if TPTB elected to support the TSLN concept.

Like I said, the more I think about it, the more I like it.

I think this is a Terrible idea :blink: My time for caching is very limited. If I take the time to go to a cache I expect that I should have a chance of finding it. If it's run it course I waste a lot of time looking for something that not there :mad:

Many of most enjoyable finds have been out of the area on trips or vacations. I often take non cachers on these trips. They love the hunt and the find and wouldn't like a wild goose chase.

For these reasons I won't waste my time on traveling caches.

2.7k · February 10, 2004

There is ALWAYS the possibility of searching for a cache that is missing. That is an inherent part of the game and nothing (short of posting armed gaurds 24/7) can be done to prevent it.

I think the knowledge that it could be gone in its normal course would help limit the hunt a little more than normal- as CR said no more "scorched earth" searches. But OTOH the routine searches might get a lot more lax given the strong possibility that the cache is gone.

I don't think the 3 month rule would be a big problem if the cache has sufficient items to reasonably expect, given local cache hit counts, that it would last that long.

Furthermore, many caches don't last that long regardless of teh intent of the owner. Most owners tend to give up on a location after the third or fourth cache is stolen in a couple of months. (Many are not THAT patient.)

The owner could post that he/she would restock the cache if it got low before 3 months passed. keeping track of this would only require simple counting of finds, but would be more accurate if posters would list the number of items left.

I think the concept is very good and I would enjoy searching for them. I may well just "test the waters" and place one myself.

Edited February 10, 2004 by ChurchCampDave

February 10, 2004

If a cache owner really wants a self limiting cache, why doesn't he just archive and remove it himself after a certain time period. Why create possible confusion and frustration for other cachers.

February 10, 2004

Great ideas ! This is a hobby - fun, light, creative. I would find these types of caches a great change of pace.

February 10, 2004

I can see circumstances where a self-limiting cache could be useful if they were allowed. For example, some parks already place limits on the amount of time a cache can be in place. Perhaps some parks that ban caches would allow self limiting ones.

I can see more of a problem having people beating up the brush looking for a cache that has been removed. I think park managers would have a bigger problem with that than a cache with an expiration date. Seems to me there would be more "scorched earth" hunts if one happened to be on the borderline of the final finder and wanted to be absolutely certain the cache wasn't there.

6.5k · February 11, 2004

Interesting idea, and yes it could work well in some cases.

However, besides making is lasts 'long enough', how can you be sure it will be removed by the last person? I mean you can request all kinds of things, but if people actually do them... You would either have to go back and check, or get someone else to agree to make sure its removed.

7.2k · February 12, 2004

With enough people who are into the hunt more than the trades, I think an empty TSLN cache would be hunted until someone "cached out." It's only archived when it's brought out of the woods.

February 12, 2004

This is a TSLN cache from our area that worked well.

Edit:Typo

Edited February 12, 2004 by cache_us_if_you_can

Self Limiting Caches

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