Handheld Or Pda?

[+Fayrewood Foragers]

i'm currently using a Garmin GPS72 for caching - but am finding it bit bulky/heavy (although it is waterproof and floats )

 

I am looking to upgrade to a PDA system for both geocaching and an in-car navigation system.

 

Does anyone else use a PDA system for caching and road navigation, if so which system is best? and do you get the same level of accuracy with a PDA? which car navigation system is best? - i keep hearing of Tomtom.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Thanx

[+Lennie's Keepers]

I use a Ipaq 3950 with Emtac gps jacket.

 

TomTom for car navigation, I find it very good.

Memory-Map with OS Landranger maps for finding the caches, also very good.

 

With the excellent service from http://www.geocacheuk.com/

you can download all the caches as Points Of Interest for TomTom

and Overlays for memory-map.

 

The PDA can also be used for all sorts of other things of course.

 

The downside with the PDA is it's probably not as robust and I've not yet found a suitable case/cover that's waterproof.

 

Anyway, that's what I use and find very good.

 

In the end it's all down to personal choice of course.

 

Richard (Mr Keeper)

[+Lizzzzeeeee]

I use a Toshiba e740 as my PDA with Memory Map and Tom Tom but wouldn't recommend it as Memory Map needs a patch to run with the "inferior graphics chip in the Toshiba" and the lovely people at MM haven't bothered and don't intend to write it for MM2004 although they did for MM2003. The result is that the PDA keeps locking up if you try using it with MM2004.

 

If you can get hold of an older copy of MMap it works fine except the track log is only one pixel wide which means you can't see it.

 

I've learned to live with it though and the Toshiba is very cheap for a bluetooth PDA!

[+Peztone]

I use an iQue for road navigation and Geocaching and it simply Rocks, my single favourite piece of technology.

 

One downside for caching, it's not waterproof, it's fabulous in every other dept.

[NeilFord]

[Warning - this is likely to be a long reply - Neil]

 

Summary:

My personal experience is that a PDA based GPSr system is a pain in the preverbial to use out caching. Works great in the car however.

 

The detail:

Firstly my background - I'm a 20 year IT professional now working as a Freelance Consultant. I work with a number of clients who travel a lot so have quite a bit of experience setting up and troubleshooting solutions using laptops, pdas, bluetooth, mobile phones, etc. I mainly work with Windows out of necessity (there are more Windows PCs to go wrong, so there is more work available), use an Apple Mac out of choice and own and have used a number of Palm OS and Pocket PC devices. I say all of this just so you know that if I say something is rubbish, it isn't based on just a five minute cursoury play.

 

So on to the nitty gritty....

 

Having discovered geocaching only recently and being well equipped on the bluetooth enabled pda front as well as having a Nokia 6600 mobile phone., I decided to investigate bluetooth enabled gpsrs. After much research I settled on the Fortuna Clip-On as it had a removable Li-Ion battery (identical to one used by Nokia in some of it's phones) and supported XTrac.

 

I tested the Fortuna with an iPaq 3870 running Vito Navigator II, GPSDash, VisualGPSce and GPSTuner, a Palm Tungsten|T running Compass and CacheNav and the Nokia 6600 running GPSDisp. As in car solutions they all worked very well, with GPSTuner working the best. It can take LOC files in to create waypoints, a very handy feature. I used this combination for the mad dash through Hertfordshire with OzGuff. However a days caching showed up the problems in the field. The receiver had a couple of bouts of not wanting to receive from the satallites and quite a number of bouts of not wanting to talk to the pda, not what you need when you're in the middle of a wood trying to find a cache, or more importantly the car!

 

At the time I was using Cachemate on the Palm to log all the caches. It worked very well but did mean taking two pdas with me each time. That proved to be quite a juggling act when you're trying to sign the log, fill in Cachemate and make sure the iPaq doesn't lose connection with the gpsr, as that usually meant a reboot of both devices.

 

So whilst we had a very successful day's caching, it proved to me that I need to be considering an alternative gpsr solution.

 

I considered a Compact Flash based receiver. I already had the PCMCIA jacket for the iPaq and a PCMCIA->Compact Flash adapter, so it would only mean getting the receiver. However all of the CF receivers are quite bulky and with the jacket on the iPaq is already quite heavy. The potential to drop it would be too great. It also restricted me to using the iPaq and I much prefer to have options.

 

I was also at the same time looking for mapping solutions. As I wanted OS maps, the ability to have them on a handheld and didn't want to fuss with scanning and calibrating my own maps, the two main contenders seemed to be Memory Map and Fugawi. Research brought to light a number of negative comments about Fugawi's user interface. Their website wasn't overly helpful with screenshots, not a good sign in my experience. It's one good point is that there was software for both Pocket PC and Palm, meaning more choice, which I consider a good thing. However, a quick look at the Memory Map products, the fact that they also did the A-Z Street Atlases and an indication that they were working on supporting the Palm platform, swung the decision. I became the proud owner of their OS Region 2 disc.

 

That just left the issue of a GPSr. Even though I had committed to the iPag for mapping I still really wanted a platform independent solution. After much reading of reviews and checking of spec, and also taking into account we had just got my wife an eTrex Legend, I decided to go for the Geko 201. It has an almost identical spec to the Legend (sans mapping), can be hooked up to a computer or pda and is increadibly small, great when you are already carrying a load of stuff. I've used it on two caching trips and I'm very pleased with it.

 

In order to lighten the load a little, I decided to look at cache management solutions on the iPaq and have settled on GPXSonar. It does a couple of things that I don't particularly like, but I've had a constructive dialog with the developer and I'm happy to commit to it as my cache management solution. That means that when I go caching, I take the Geko and the iPaq out of the car. I do have the cable to link the two and could use that to plot my accurate position on the maps, but haven't bothered. Much easier to just use the display on the Geko and manually refer to the map to avoid any obsticles.

 

In the car I use a combination of the iPaq and the Fortuna. Being a wireless solution means less mess on the dash and if the iPaq is powered they commnicate quite happily indefinitely. Position tracking on the OS maps works really well. The Memory Map cds include the OS Road Atlas, though I've not had a chance to play with that yet. They don't seem to include any route planning functionality, but that's not a biggie as I have Autoroute for that. Alternatively I could pay for Wayfinder for the Nokia 6600 which provides route planning, voice direction and GPS integration as well as dynamically updated maps (they are downloaded from a server rather than being installed on the phone).

 

So having waffled on, now to answer your question.

 

Whilst the GPS72 is big and bulky, it does support NEMA (the protocol to provide the positioning feed to a computer or PDA), does have a data port and there are cables available to connect it to a number of devices (PCs, iPaqs, Palms, etc). You could invest in a PDA that has a mapping solution available for it and use the GPS to drive that in the car. The only problem would be that with both ports in use, it would not be possible to power either device.

 

Of the two major contenders in route planning mapping there doesn't seem to be much to choose between CoPilot and Tom Tom. Any choice would probably come down to price and look and feel.

 

Things that it's important to consider.

 

The map files are big! For example: One full region of Memory Map OS maps are over 300Mb, which means using either 512Mb SD cards (still relatively expensive) or a Compact Flash card jacket and card, which adds to the bulk, though extra cards will be cheaper (and are availabel upto 4Gb).

 

PDAs eat juice, especially if they are on constantly, even more so if the backlight is on. That's why it's advantageous to power them if you can. Iseem to remember seeing combined carcharger and data cables for the iPaqs somewhere which might go someway to alliviating the issue if you hooked it up to your GPS72.

 

You can get jacket/sleeve gpsrs for both Palm and Pocket PC (mainly iPaqs), which is another route to consider. They obviously increase the bulk once again, which may defeat the object.

 

Above all I would strongly recommend that you get to see as many solutions as possible, at least in order to get a feel for the weight and bulk you will be letting yourself in for.

 

Given a blank sheet to start from I would probably suggest the following:

Compaq iPaq with bluetooth built in

Bluetooth GPSr for in car use

Garmin Geko 201 for caching

Ordanance Survey electronic maps (probably from Memory Map)

Tom Tom Navigator 3 software for route planning and directions (as it appears you can't export Autoroute directions as waypoints/routes, at least not from the 2001 version)

Enough SD memory cards to hold the Tom Tom maps and whatever OS maps you need so you don't have to keep deleting one or the other (it's a time consuming process writing 300Mb of map to a card)

GPXSonar for cache management and logging

 

(Having just has a quick look on Expansys, a possible alternative would be the Tom Tom Navigator 3 GPS for Poket PC which provides an external GPS receiver and cradle for in car use. Comes complete with the software too.)

 

Apologies for such a long email, but once you get into this there so much to consider.

 

I am more than happy to provide further advice, either on here or by email. Depending on your location I'm even happy to offer you the opportunity to have a play with all the kit I've got to get a feel for the pros and cons. A GPS72<->iPaq cable would set you back just under £30 from GPSW if you fancied trying out hooking up your existing unit.

 

Hopefully all of this has been of some help.

 

Regards

Neil.

[+Team Paradise]

I use a Ipaq 3950 with Emtac gps jacket.

 

The downside with the PDA is it's probably not as robust and I've not yet found a suitable case/cover that's waterproof.

 

Richard... Check these out... They're great. My 3870 has been whacked against trees, in a river, etc, and is still in 'as new' condition.

 

Personally I use the 'Armor 2600' with a bluetooth GPS... Works great.

 

Steve

[+Pharisee]

I use an iQue for road navigation and Geocaching and it simply Rocks, my single favourite piece of technology.

 

One downside for caching, it's not waterproof, it's fabulous in every other dept.

I also use an iQue for navigation in the car. Apart from the odd cart track that the iQue thinks is a road, it's superb. There are a couple of problems with using it to locate caches, though:

 

1) It doesn't have (as standard) a 'navigation' page so there's no little arrow to point to the cache. Fortunately "Smittyware" sorted that out with the CacheNav program. (Their CacheMate software also sorts out the cache pages and logging stuff.)

 

2) With the GPS active and the backlight on, the battery life can be measured in minutes. It's OK if you can plug it into the car between caches but it sure as hell wont last you for a days caching otherwise.

 

So as an alternative to my Legend it's a non starter but for getting me to where I need to be it's the 'Mutts Nuts' and I LOVE it to bits !!!

[+Lennie's Keepers]

Richard... Check these out... They're great. My 3870 has been whacked against trees, in a river, etc, and is still in 'as new' condition.

Steve, I looked at these but I don't think they do one that will take the iPAQ with the gps sleeve.

 

Richard (Mr Keeper)

[+Team Paradise]

Richard... Check these out... They're great. My 3870 has been whacked against trees, in a river, etc, and is still in 'as new' condition.

Steve, I looked at these but I don't think they do one that will take the iPAQ with the gps sleeve.

 

Richard (Mr Keeper)

Dunno Richard, but the 3600 is HUGE and they now make a 'deep' version so it may be worth checking...

[+dogastus]

NeilFord has given a great response to your question. I just thought I would tell you what I use which works quite well.

 

I think the PDA is too fragile and battery hungry to be a good choice for the off-road cache search. I use a Garmin Legend and have been very thankful for it's small size, ruggedness and reasonable battery life. When it rains while you're on a search - which it WILL - it is great to know that you can still use your GPSr without it getting ruined with a few spots of rain.

 

For in-car use I use an iPAQ H2210 PDA with a Haicom GPS module which plugs into the compact flash slot and a 256meg SD memory card. I use TomTom navigator which works really well and GPXSonar for looking at cache data. The PDA is mounted on the dash with a vent mount, and there is just one cable which connects the PDA to the cigarette lighter socket.

[NeilFord]

For PDA protection I would suggest looking at Aquapac which whilst not ruggadised in the same way as the Otter boxes, do provide complete water protection and have neckstraps to help prevent the dropping issue. Their online store even quotes prices in good old sterling :-)

 

A good site for reviews, etc. is Pocket GPS World. They have just reviewed the TomTom Navigator version 3 product.

 

- Neil

[+Naefearjustbeer]

I use a dell axim X5 pda with memory map connected to my basic yellow etrex in the car. I know that it doesnt give route planning functions but it suits me well. When I leave the car to start walking to find the cache I just use the etrex and follow the arrow, If the terrain is difficult I will look at my pda map and plan my route but dont actually have them connected together. When I get to the cache site I can look at the cache page on my pda, I just copy and paste the relevant info from the cache page and save it a text file, I also send spoiler photos, info and hints as well. As for protecting my pda if it is raining or I am on rugged terrain where I may slip and fall I keep my pda in my rucksack stored inside a small plastic box that I got in a set from woolworths made by JML, It has locking flaps and a seal strip round the lid. I can fit the pda and the connecting lead for my gps in the box. I find that the pda battery will last all day switched on as long as the back light is not left on the whole time, I have it set to switch off after 30 seconds, Yesterday I was using this set up and the gps was on from 9 am until 6pm and the pda was switched for about half that time with no battery worries. The dell also has a separate charging socket so i can charge it and have the gps connected at the same time(I have never actually had to do this even on a full days caching). I have been considerng some sort of software fore route planning on the move but not done anything about it yet. The memory map works but as the maps do not rotate it is a bit confusing when you are travelling south as a right tun on the road looks like a left turn on the map, everything is fine heading north

[+Peztone]

I use an iQue for road navigation and Geocaching and it simply Rocks,

1) It doesn't have (as standard) a 'navigation' page

 

2) With the GPS active and the backlight on, the battery life can be measured in minutes.

 

I love Cachemate as much as the next man.. I rely on the dadgum thing in fact, but I've found the Pointer in the free software "Cetus" to be more accurate, no idea why, but in the crucial last 10 feet it does seem more responsive.

 

The power problem is easily solved with a 4xAA external battery pack, I did a test at home, screen on, GPS active, 10 hours non-stop. It will also charge an iQue from flat in about 30 minutes.

 

Do you use the backlight when caching with the Que? turn it off and the internal battery will go for a continuous 2 hours, I just switch the Que on now & then while hiking & have never had power problems.

 

I'm currently building a handheld "sled" for the Que which will have 4xAA batteries and a Gilsson external antenna on it, I'll conquor tree cover if it kills me

 

-Steve

[+Grynneman]

Hi,

I've just started using an Ipaq 3950, with bluetooth jacket and Memory-Map 2003 running. GPSr is the SysOnChip CF card which slots in the back of the sleeve, and I protect it with a Aquapac PDA holder (which is big enough to take the whole kit).

I update the memory map files to a 256mb storage card via a USB2 reader.

I've managed to get all the uk roadmap on 1 storage card (about 132mb), then send smaller 50:000 scale maps just for the local area around the cache (and also the aerial view if I have the area).

I've tried the new version of Anquet maps software (with the virtual 3d landscapes). The only downsides really is the lack of features on the PDA software, and that they only seem to import .arf files, which is a file format dedicated just to that software.

Before the SysOnChip Sirf CF I plugged an etrex vista into the PDA, but found having to hold a GPSr & PDA in anything but straightforward terrain caused no end of headaches (even considered duct taping all to a bit of plywood at one point!).

Have to say the SysOnChip is incredibly light, and acquisition times pretty good.

It also has a socket to plug in a receiver when in the car (which I haven't needed yet).

[+-radar-]

Here is my tuppence worth.

 

I use a similar setup to dogastus. except for the GPSr used.

 

I have a yellow etrex that I have been using for caching.

I bought an IPAQ 2210, which has plenty of connectivity.

256MB SD card

Data cable for IPAQ-ETREX which also provides power from car socket.

TOMTOM navigator

GPXSonar

ARKON vent mount.

 

A very tidy, simple setup, and I can use the etrex to provide the signal for TOMTOM. It works very well (typically 7-10 satellites from the dashboard of my GOLF) and I didn't have to buy another GPSr.

 

Once TOMTOM has me at the parking place, I put the data cable away and the ETREX gets me to the cache (much more rugged than walking around with IPAQ in hand). I log the find on my IPAQ with GPXSonar.

 

I don't use topo maps (yet) on the IPAQ. I just keep a paper map in the rucky if I think I will need it.

 

**NB - By the way, DIXONS - airside in Heathrow airport are selling the 2210 for £198 - way cheaper than anywhere else and you can buy from there even on UK flights - departure and arrival) and Expansys are quite cheap for SD cards, although not the fastest SD cards around

 

Cheers

radar

[+Daisy&me]

My setup is the same as Dogastus's except that I use a Magellan Sportrak instead of a Garmin.

 

In addition I have an old Palm with Cachemate that I carry to the cache. Its old enough to be expendable unlike the Ipaq and I could probably replace it for about £30 if necessary.

 

The price of 2210s is dropping rapidly. The best price you could find 6 months ago was £300, now its £200.

 

I also us Fugawi on the Ipaq.

[NeilFord]

For cheap SD cards Valueflash seem to have some of the best prices around, £100 inc VAT for a 512Mb Dane-Elec card. They even beat my regular supplier in Australia (PowerInNumbers) who always were the cheapest place around.

 

I have also seen some PC Worlds with the PNY 512Mb cards for the same price, though not all of them.

 

- Neil.

[sidewallwolf]

Our current set up for the car is as follows:

 

iPAQ 3700 with CompactFlash adaptor

256MB CompactFlash Card

TomTom Navigator with all Western Europe maps

Arkon PDA Mount.

eTrex legend

 

We link the iPAQ and GPS together.

As for the caches on TomTom, we have had very little luck with them. Unless you get GPXSonar or CacheMate, you cannot get anything off the co-ordinates.

 

Personally, the best buy is the PDA Mount. They are quite expensive, but they save you buying extra cables to power the IPAQ. They also have a speaker, which makes the TomTom person easier to understand. All you need for this is a DC/DC power cable that fits in the slot on the IPAQ. I bodged one of this together from two old transformer cables. A dap of solder and a bit of glue and you're done.

Edited April 27, 2004 by sidewallwolf