Chatanooga Choo Choo Virt

[ju66l3r]

To quell the arguments in an otherwise on-track thread, I submit this:

 

AB4N  Posted: May 27 2004, 07:05 PM 

 

I just had a virtual get turned down and still don't know why. My approver referred me here so I am jumping in. Yeah, I got a reason for the denial after my approver took it to the approver club, but not one that made good sense in my opinion. I haven't been around that long and would like to own just one virt to get the icon, maybe that's not a good reason, so what 

 

Personally, I don't think micro caches are any better qualified than virts to be caches. A container small enough for only a log book is not a "cache" by definition. Since there are no such limitations on micros, I don't see the justification for some of the arbitrary decisions made on what virts to approve and not. So please don't respond with the usual comments that virtuals are not "caches."

 

Lady Hydee says that gravestones are not "normally" qualified, then what is so special about GCJFKF that got approved nine days ago.

 

Great views or markers don't normally qualify either, so what about GCH8P5

 

I thought and worked hard trying to figure out a location that would qualify for a virtual, and came up with what I thought was an ideal candidate, the Chattanooga Choo-Choo.

 

I live nearby, and so I planned it out so that there were several questions, two of which could not be answered by internet search best I can tell. Due to security issues in a place of tourism a traditional cache is not possible. Being a tourism destination and the worldwide interest, I think it fits the WOW factor just fine. Please prove to me that the Chattanooga Choo-Choo doesn’t qualify and need a cache as badly as any other virtual that has been approved recently.

 

The reasons that it was turned down are that it was said to be commercial in nature and doesn't require a GPS.

 

I respectifully disagree. There is no admittance fee to the majority of the Choo-Choo property. Only an HO scale train museum has an admittance fee, and all the cache questions can be answered without paying a dime; even the parking is free. If the museum being on the same property makes it a commercial cache to be denied are the approvers going to stop approving urban caches and gas station micros? Please tell me what the definition of a commercial cache is.

 

I don't think the second reason is valid either. I provided specific coords for the cache where two of the qualifying questions could be answered. The GPS coords take a person exactly to the location without need of additional maps or resources.

 

I can look up most virtuals that have been approved since the restrictions have been in place and then click on the map link and know exactly where to go to find the answers. I can even find some caches without a GPS. If this "rule" were consistently applied than few if any virts would be getting approved, and some caches wouldn't either. Before I was told that was a reason for being turned down, I had never even heard that was a rule. Yeah it may seem logical, but where is the consistency? What defines the level of significance that a GPS plays in the hunt? I have looked at the recently approved virtuals in several states and not ever seen this as an issue until now. Are we making rules up as we go? Maybe, but why aren't they applied consistently?

 

   

ju66l3r Posted: May 27 2004, 07:20 PM 

 

Not to derail (pun intended) the discussion of how to improve the virtual guidelines, but here's my thoughts on your virtual.

 

The "no need for GPSr" is a bit of a red herring. WaldenRun does ALL of his caching without a GPSr...so, where does that leave him?

 

With that out of the way, from what you've stated, the only objection is the commercialism of the cache. I also disagree with this, if as you've also stated all parts of the cache can be accomplished without paying.

 

If you can visit the CCChoo without paying to reach your points of interest, then all I have to say is:

 

Pardon me boys...where's the Chatanooga Choo Choo cache?

 

I say all of this with the caveat of not having read exactly what they stated or what your cache asks for.

 

--------------------

 

AB4N Posted: May 27 2004, 07:27 PM 

 

QUOTE (ju66l3r @ May 27 2004, 03:20 PM)

...I say all of this with the caveat of not having read exactly what they stated or what your cache asks for. 

 

The reply I got says:

 

After discussing this cache with the other approvers. The cache has been archived because of the commercial nature and you don't need a GPS to find it.

 

The qualifying questions are:

 

1. What was the name of America’s first municipal railway system?

 

2. What was the date that the first passenger train was nicknamed the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?

 

3. For the third question you will need to make your way to the model railroad museum. Inside you can purchase tickets to go up to the museum. As you enter the museum on the first floor there are pictures of old trains. One picture is larger than the rest. The question you need to answer is what is the engine number of the train in the large picture?

 

4. To find the answer to the final question you will need to make your way down between the two rows of box cars that make up the restaurants and sleeping cars. The last car on the right (green in color) has a name, what is it?

 

---------------------------------------------

 

To read more, search through the various responses here...

[ju66l3r]

Mopar said:

As that guideline is written, this cache seems to fail on that. It's obvious that the the hider isn't intentionally trying to get people to buy tickets to the museum (although the description posted here DOES sound like you have to pay to me), but it still sounds like a plug for a commercial location. If the museum itself had tried to place the cache, there would probably be no argument. Slam dunk commercial. I've said it before, I don't care for that guideline. I'd much rather see caches with commercial intent be banned. I mean, I don't think a cache in Disney is meant to get people to purchase admission. Rather it's there for people who are already going anyway. No intent=fine in my book. However, I understand it's probably impossible to truly know a hider's intent, and there would be no way to regulate that. The rule is there, I play by it. This cache seems to fail that rule no matter what the virtual aspect is.

There was some really good discussion on the virtual guidelines in general happening here. Let's try to stay with that.

 

The history (if you read their website) of the station is such that it was about to be demolished in the 70's. It is actually an *amazing* piece of American Railroad historical content. A group of businessmen bought the station and transformed it into something that would pay for its own restoration while also listing it on the National Register of Historical Places. The Glen Miller song made it popular, but its history makes it famous. Ten or so years later, it was bought by another business group and they asked Holiday Inn to get involved.

 

As I understand it from AB4N's description of the place and the website's description, this is basically a museum that is run by a business as opposed to the government. Fortunately, this does not ruin in any means the historical value or content, since the building and the actual steam train (last one for hundreds of miles) are still there and in great condition and can be appreciated for free. Unfortunately, it means that there will be a few other calls to spend your money (getting into the HO gauge model train display) or the arcade, hotel, and shops. BUT just because a cache brings you *near* commercial ventures does not in my mind diminish its importance in bringing you to the "Wow" of history. Unlike Disney's cache or my proposed "Teddy Ballgame Red Seat" cache, there is *no* ticket necessary to complete this cache. If we are all too weak-minded that GC.com needs to protect us from big, bad, corporate America and its snake-charmer lights and sounds and songs, then it is truly a sad day indeed. It seems that urban caches will need to be struck down soon too, since within 500 feet of most of the caches I have done in downtown Boston, there has been a business calling for my money with its neon "Open" signs and low, low prices...and what about parking lot caches. I mean, you have to *see* the Wal-Mart from across the way.

 

ASIDE from all that, it's clear that there is a release valve for caches of this nature where historical meets potentially commercial and that is also in the guidelines. AB4N if after your rewrite you pose the question of this cache here again, be sure to specifically state "Commercialism aside, is there anything wrong with this cache now?" Because you can always e-mail GS.com (as per the guidelines) and request a "special exception" to their "solicitation" rule, so if that is truly what they want to consider this, then let the head honchos rule on it.

 

As it is, I don't think that the purchase of historical property by commercial interests should keep geocachers from listing it here for other geocachers to learn more about the past.

[+Mopar]

As it is, I don't think that the purchase of historical property by commercial interests should keep geocachers from listing it here for other geocachers to learn more about the past.

Neither do I, and from the sound of it, I bet gc.com would give the OK on the commercial aspect, if asked. Since that doesn't seem to have happened, it was still a valid reason for the cache to be turned down (IMNHO).

[+mtn-man]

Honestly, isn't this just another monument. It is bigger than the average piece of bronze riveted to concrete, but isn't it just another monument?

[ju66l3r]

Yes, this is another monument. As you also note, it is not a plaque on concrete (which I've been to as a virtual *since* the guidelines claim these are too common). What is your point?

[+joefrog]

I've been to the Choo Choo. Nice place, and a bunch of micro hiding places.

 

As far as tourism spots go, I have a micro in one of the most-visited spots in Birmingham, Vulcan Park. Simple film can with velcro, and an oversized self-adhesive velcro to allow for quick & sneaky replacement of the cache. I suppose I can see the approver's point this time...

[+OzGuff]

And aren't Minnie Pearl and Johnny Cash just two more dead people with gravestones? (Apologies to anyone who is offended by my handling of these recently deceased notables.)

 

I would think there is more WOW at the Chattanooga Choo-Choo site for most than at another gravesite. I also think that the virtuals at the Cash and Pearl sites probably lended themselves to offset caches leading to a physical cache. My 2 cents.

[ju66l3r]

I bet gc.com would give the OK on the commercial aspect, if asked. Since that doesn't seem to have happened, it was still a valid reason for the cache to be turned down (IMNHO).

The reviewers have turned it down. It has not to my understanding at this point been sent to the e-mail address in the guidelines for GS.com review of its commerciality.

 

If it is sent there and the commercial content of the entire location is deemed too strong for the historical value that can be gained by completing the free and uncommercial virtual, then the site will have final say in not listing it here.

 

If that is the eventual outcome of this cache, then my opinion of GC/GS in representing what geocaching should entail will drop some. It is a fact of life that the government is not interested in or is not aware of every interestingly historic place. When a commercial entity can rescue such a location while adding its own influences around that place, I can only see this as a good thing. For others to learn about the location and what it means to our heritage even at the risk of bringing them near consumerism is also a good thing. Even the NPS has gift shops. The roads to our caches, virtual or not, have billboards. We each must have some responsibility in determining what we buy into or not. Simply listing a cache near a consumer source (a store, a hotel, a tourist trap) is not endorsing anything. Had this cache been called "Hey check out these cool train cars you can sleep in at the Chattanooga Holiday Inn" Virtual, then even unintentionally, this is an endorsement for a commercial venture. For the submitter to say "hey, check out this cool piece of Americana" and for that Americana to be located close to a commercial venture is not the same thing.

[+Imajika]

Okay, I understand you are upset about this being turned down for a virtual but are you telling me that there is NO WHERE on the entire property to hide a micro????

 

One of my caches is at a police memorial. I knew that getting virts approved is not an easy task so I hid an altoids tin at the site. In my description I told people that the memorial is right there and asked that they visit the memorial and give thanks for police officers that put their lives on the line every day.

 

It was approved in 30 minutes and has become quite popular.

 

In the area you are describing, it seems like there would be a lot of places to hide a micro. You seem dead set on getting it approved as a virt but if you make a little compromise, you could have a micro there and everything would be peachy? Right?

 

Getting caches approved often involves making compromises and working with your approver. Just work with them, they aren't trying to be jerks...really.

[Fakk 2]

Being a board lurker more than a cacher I have read many posts by ju66l3r that put me off, but I have to say this is a first that I seen with thought out and planned actions. Even to being a virtual this seems to be more of an interesting virt than to the ones that have been getting approved. Yeah anyone can ask where is the CCC and find it without a GPS, but um I do believe there are others that 1 can say oh I am looking for acme plaza do you know where that is. I have done a virtual in my 3 months of caching. And it was to a place that I visited often but never stopped to look at. I learned something by doing the virtual and it was interesting. THe same can be said about this. many may know where the CCC is, but how many actually stop to look and read?

[+JMBella]

I like that the cache owner makes it necessary to go inside and find out more about the history. Translate that history into coords for a micro hidden on the property and that takes care of that. As far as the guidelines for "commercial" caches. I've said it before and I'll say it again...

 

STARBUCKS

 

How many Starbucks caches have been placed by the same person?

[+Renegade Knight]

As it is, I don't think that the purchase of historical property by commercial interests should keep geocachers from listing it here for other geocachers to learn more about the past.

Neither do I, and from the sound of it, I bet gc.com would give the OK on the commercial aspect, if asked. Since that doesn't seem to have happened, it was still a valid reason for the cache to be turned down (IMNHO).

Woudn't submitting the cache for approval qualify as asking?

[+Renegade Knight]

Honestly, isn't this just another monument. It is bigger than the average piece of bronze riveted to concrete, but isn't it just another monument?

Almost anything of minor significance gets a plaque or sign. Thus something of major and worthy significance would probably get a plaque or sign. The plaque is and of itself is a non issue, thogh I have to admit when all there is is a plaque it's not interesting.

[+mtn-man]

Yes, this is another monument.  As you also note, it is not a plaque on concrete (which I've been to as a virtual *since* the guidelines claim these are too common).  What is your point?

What's my point?

Signs, memorials, tombstones or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches. 

It is just a big historical marker. Go to your hotel lobby and pick up a flyer. They are in every hotel lobby for miles around. When the big billboard on the interstate says exit, get off the exit and follow the signs.

 

Oh wait, we are suppose to use our GPS, right?

Edited May 28, 2004 by mtn-man

[+Mopar]

As it is, I don't think that the purchase of historical property by commercial interests should keep geocachers from listing it here for other geocachers to learn more about the past.

Neither do I, and from the sound of it, I bet gc.com would give the OK on the commercial aspect, if asked. Since that doesn't seem to have happened, it was still a valid reason for the cache to be turned down (IMNHO).

Woudn't submitting the cache for approval qualify as asking?

Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit

 

<snip>

Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.

 

Emphasis is in the guidelines, not mine.

[+AB4N]

...are you telling me that there is NO WHERE on the entire property to hide a micro????

 

In the area you are describing, it seems like there would be a lot of places to hide a micro.

 

Getting caches approved often involves making compromises and working with your approver. Just work with them, they aren't trying to be jerks...really.

No, that is not what I am saying, there are many places that a micro could be hid. I sought permission to hide a traditional cache and never heard from them. I would be happy to place a traditional cache there if I could, but I think permission is the first order in a case like this (as in most).

 

I have never suggested that my approver was trying to be a jerk. In fact my approver (TG) has been very courtious and considerate. Others have been less so.

[ju66l3r]

 

Signs, memorials, tombstones or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches. 

 

It is just a big historical marker.

 

Au contraire, it is an entire building refurbished from 1870. It is a refurbished 1880 steam engine in peak condition now. It is the source of a 1940's big band hit. It was the South's gateway to the West by rail through the mountains.

 

Historical markers, signs, and tombstones are like you said "bronze on concrete". A restored building and steam train is not.

 

There are plenty of virtuals that have been approved since 1/04 that are "just another historical marker" if you'd like to extend it to include an entire train and train station...

 

  Go to your hotel lobby and pick up a flyer.  They are in every hotel lobby for miles around.  When the big billboard on the interstate says exit, get off the exit and follow the signs.

 

Oh wait, we are suppose to use our GPS, right?

 

This is *not* a requirement for using this site. To suggest we're "supposed" to use a GPSr is very short-sighted. The majority of us use a GPSr because it is the easiest way for us to find the coordinates (of which, AB4N has explained that they take you to the exact locations for the information asked by the questions). There are quite a few cachers who are able to use mapping, plotting, and orienteering to complete over twice the caches than even you have done (SEE WaldenRun).

Edited May 28, 2004 by ju66l3r

[+AB4N]

Honestly, isn't this just another monument. It is bigger than the average piece of bronze riveted to concrete, but isn't it just another monument?

Isn't this just another view? Oh wait, there is a marker too!

[+AB4N]

<snip>

If you are in doubt, ask first.

Emphasis in the quote is mine.

 

I have read the guidelines before and after the post and this spot is just as valid as many other caches that have been approved recently. So in my opinion there was no doubt, so I didn't ask first. I have tried to ask first in the past and it didn't help, as have many others. I knew the uphill battle it would be and just wanted to get it rolling.

[+Mopar]

Honestly, isn't this just another monument.  It is bigger than the average piece of bronze riveted to concrete, but isn't it just another monument?

Isn't this just another view? Oh wait, there is a marker too!

That's probably a bad example. First, there's the fact that physical caches are banned there. Plus it looks like it was hid right around the last time the guidelines changed so it may have slipped through anyway.

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches.  This means that the past approval of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the approval of a new cache.  If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

 

Edited May 28, 2004 by Mopar

[+Mopar]

No, that is not what I am saying, there are many places that a micro could be hid. I sought permission to hide a traditional cache and never heard from them. I would be happy to place a traditional cache there if I could, but I think permission is the first order in a case like this (as in most).

By saying that it is possible to hide aq physical cache there, you probably pretty much damned the virtual aspect of it.

[+mtn-man]

Honestly, isn't this just another monument.  It is bigger than the average piece of bronze riveted to concrete, but isn't it just another monument?

Isn't this just another view? Oh wait, there is a marker too!

What Mopar said.

 

In fact, being in the Chattooga District, it is a very highly regulated area of the Forest Service...

 

http://www.ggaonline.org/guidelinesFS.html

[+AB4N]

Honestly, isn't this just another monument.  It is bigger than the average piece of bronze riveted to concrete, but isn't it just another monument?

Isn't this just another view? Oh wait, there is a marker too!

That's probably a bad example. First, there's the fact that physical caches are banned there. Plus it looks like it was hid right around the last time the guidelines changed so it may have slipped through anyway.

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches.  This means that the past approval of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the approval of a new cache.  If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

 

Hasn't the view is a view is a view has been around longer than Nov. ?

 

I already tried one of those, it is called Sunset Rock on Lookout mountain, and provides an outstanding view. It is on forbidden NPS land, but got shot down anyway.

 

As for the precedent rule I didn't post the link for evidence that my cache should be approved because it is like that one. I posted it because it is one of many examples of caches that don't meet the guidelines in one persons view, but obviously in some persons view it did. There are always exceptions to the rules, and they have to be interpreted on a case by case basis. I think the CCC cache is worthy of the same.

[+AB4N]

No, that is not what I am saying, there are many places that a micro could be hid. I sought permission to hide a traditional cache and never heard from them. I would be happy to place a traditional cache there if I could, but I think permission is the first order in a case like this (as in most).

By saying that it is possible to hide aq physical cache there, you probably pretty much damned the virtual aspect of it.

I don't think so, not if they don't allow them there. In a place like this I think permission for a traditional cache is advisable.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

<snip>

Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.

 

Emphasis is in the guidelines, not mine.

Looks like we were on different wavelengths. (not that that would ever happen).

 

What constitutes commercial seems to be expanding slowly over time. At first it was commercial entities and commercial fee's that set the standard. Walmart placing micros in their own parking lots for example. Or a fee to get in a for profit scuba park.

 

About a year ago I the first cache denied because you had to enter a commercial establishment to find an answer and therby obtain the answer you need to find the cache. No money involved and no connection to the business. Now it's grown a bit more than that.