Including Archived Caches In Pqs?

October 24, 2004

Jeremy...

Could you "flip the switch" that would allow members to retrieve a pocket query of archived caches? If not, then could you put some sort of timer on a cache so that when it is archived, it can still be retrieved by a pocket query for something like two weeks?

There are quite of few of us using GSAK now and I know that my usage of it reduces the loads on the gc.com servers; however, there is no way to know when a cache gets archived. If members could get archived caches in their pocket queries it might help to further reduce the load on your servers.

Any help would be appreciated!

9.1k · October 24, 2004

I happen to think that including archived caches in PQ's is a bad idea for a number of reasons. I'll give two here, and I'll stay away from the debate between "I need to update GSAK" and "the site should only distribute current data." I don't use GSAK, and I guard against this problem by always working with fresh PQ information, so I'm not in the best position to speak to that.

Reason 1: How many times have you read a log from someone complaining that they didn't notice the cache had been disabled? Some of these specifically mention that the cache had been in their pocket query. These folks don't know that there's a box to check for "Is Active" as well as one for "Is Not Active." If archived caches are to be included in PQ's, how do we protect this crowd from further blundering? I'd hate to knowingly send them out looking for even more caches that are no longer there.

Reason 2: Several of my caches are placed under permits from the agency that manages our State Parks. Under the terms of the permit agreement I signed, when the cache reaches its expiration date in three years, I have to remove the container, restore the site if there's been any damage, and then remove any trace of the listing on any listing service. Now, I know that people can still see that archived cache in a couple of ways, by looking at all my hidden caches, or by searching through the list of found caches for any geocacher who found my cache. But to continue distributing the cache data for my archived cache? That goes beyond the boundaries of my permit, I think, since that feature did not exist at the time the regulations were written. If there were to be a reversal of this listing service's policy against distributing data for archived caches, I'm afraid I'd have to archive all of my state park caches before the change became effective.

October 24, 2004

I'm sorry for not making my point more clear. I just want the ability to choose "archived caches" just like you might choose "caches I haven't found" or "caches with travel bugs" in the pocket queries.

3.9k · October 24, 2004

I guess the question is... are you trying to view permanantly disabled caches? or change the wording on the inactive or temporarily disabled caches?

9.1k · October 24, 2004

I'm sorry for not making my point more clear. I just want the ability to choose "archived caches" just like you might choose "caches I haven't found" or "caches with travel bugs" in the pocket queries.

And I do not want you to see my archived caches, because that will violate the permit agreements I've signed.

7.2k · October 24, 2004

There could be a way to send a cache's WPT with details blank and the <Groundspeak:cache Archived="True"> tag.

I'm sure Clyde could program GSAK to not replace cache details, but automatically set that cache to archived.

Add a selective filter to let folks get archived caches or not.

This should satisfy both worlds.

1.3k · October 24, 2004

I'm sorry for not making my point more clear. I just want the ability to choose "archived caches" just like you might choose "caches I haven't found" or "caches with travel bugs" in the pocket queries.

And I do not want you to see my archived caches, because that will violate the permit agreements I've signed.

There is a feature called "Archived No Show" for just that situation. I haven't used it, and haven't seen anybody use it, but it's my understanding that it blocks everybody except GC.com admin (perhaps approvers as well) from seeing the data.

I'm not sure why it violates the rules. I have signed a similar agreement and as far as I'm concerned the big RED "This cache has been archived" with a subsequent Archival note and explanation clarifies that the cache is no longer there. The chances somebody is so stupid that they'd look for the cache with that postec clearly are about the same that they'd look for it based on an old PQ (or Buxley's mapping service, which is not updating new caches but doesn't remove caches when they are archived).

I just don't think that would violate your agreement.

I mean - I have PQ's of caches from before they were archived. I'm sure many others do. Also - Google and other search engines cache webpages. Are you going to petition them to remove the information from their website?

southdeltan

Edited October 24, 2004 by southdeltan

October 24, 2004

You can always find an archived cache is you look at the finds under a person's profile (who has found the cache). So even archiving would seem to violate your (The Leprechauns) agreement. Why not just archive your cache and then post an admin note to change the coordinates to a nearby lake or body of water (or something like that)?

My request for being able to do a pocket query of archived caches does not add anything that you can't already do now, except be able to do it as a group (pocket query). I just don't want to have to go through caches one at a time to find archived caches because its a hassle and it just puts more load on the geocaching.com servers.

October 25, 2004

I would like to see archived caches included in PQ's also. Sometimes I can have an hour or two of free time between jobs. I like to use this time to cache if I can. I keep a current database of caches for my area on my pda for just such an occasion. Unfortunately I have wasted my time more than once hunting an archived cache.

I have also noted that a county near me has recently changed its policy and now requires a permit to place caches. Apparently many people have not taken time to get the necessary permit for their existing cache so they have been archived. By chance I have found several just this week and removed them from my database. I'm sure there are many more I haven't found yet.

9.1k · October 25, 2004

You can always find an archived cache is you look at the finds under a person's profile (who has found the cache). So even archiving would seem to violate your (The Leprechauns) agreement. Why not just archive your cache and then post an admin note to change the coordinates to a nearby lake or body of water (or something like that)?

My request for being able to do a pocket query of archived caches does not add anything that you can't already do now, except be able to do it as a group (pocket query). I just don't want to have to go through caches one at a time to find archived caches because its a hassle and it just puts more load on the geocaching.com servers.

Yes, I am quite aware of the means by which someone can see an archived cache on the website. It has always been that way. It's also been the case that archived caches have never shown up in search results based on a zipcode or a set of coordinates, which is how most folks search for caches to actually go out and find.

And it was on this understanding of how the website worked that formed the backdrop for the discussions held between concerned geocachers like myself and representatives of the Pennsylvania DCNR, leading eventually to the adoption of permit requirements in spring of 2003. One section of the rules deals with archived caches. Do you have superior knowledge of what does or does not violate the letter and spirit of the permit system? Have you had discussions with Charlie Meade at DCNR that are contrary to mine? If so, I'd be grateful for the information.

Please don't suggest that I change the coordinates for my State Park caches when they're archived. That takes effort, and admin involvement for a move of more than 528 feet. I'd rather keep them right where they really were when they were archived. I just don't want the data for them widely distributed through PQ's and searches.

Using my preferred software combination, which does not include GSAK, I have absolutely no problem keeping archived caches out of my paperless caching system. Just because some geocachers choose another third party application is not enough to convince me to support a change in how the website distributes its data, and how this process is communicated to land managers. If you choose that other system, you choose the hassle that goes with it.

October 25, 2004

I think this might be able to work with just sending the waypoint. Everything else could be set to zero in the PQ. I have suggested many times to be able to just get a list by waypoint of archived or disabled caches.

TPTB have said that they are concerned about stale data being out there. But from what I can tell it is out there anyway and they don't give a clean way for people to get rid of the data they are holding. We can argue if people are using the data the way it was intended but that really does not matter because we have to look at how people are really using the data.

I don't see a list of waypoints of archived caches being all that big. And it requires next to no overhead to produce. I have to guess there is some other reason they don't do this and I am not really sure what that reason might be. But I have said on many occasions it would stop a pretty good amount of the overhead by doing this. A person could gather up the caches they want in their area, then run a PQ weekly to get the new ones and then run the list of archived against the data they are holding. Instead people are forced to run queries for the areas they want over and over again to keep a fresh list of which it is likely most of which has not changed. As I have said before it has grown tiresome to hear about the amount of server resources and bandwidth being used and yet a very simple fix is out there which never has been put into place. There is even a namespace in the gpx file which can be set if the cache is active or not and that has not be used. So long ago I have come to the conclusion that all of those reason given are just red herrings.

2.8k · October 25, 2004

I think this might be able to work with just sending the waypoint. Everything else could be set to zero in the PQ.

Sounds like a very good idea to me. This solution would appear keep everybody happy.

TPTB have said that they are concerned about stale data being out there. But from what I can tell it is out there anyway and they don't give a clean way for people to get rid of the data they are holding. We can argue if people are using the data the way it was intended but that really does not matter because we have to look at how people are really using the data.

Very well said. I would have to agree with you 100% on this one.

Edited October 25, 2004 by ClydeE

24.7k · October 25, 2004

I would like to see this feature so that I could actually have a complete GPX file of my finds. Even if Lep singed an agreement because I found it and I want a record of my logs and finds.

As for archived caches that I haven't found, I'd be happy with the email notification that they have been archived.

Edited October 25, 2004 by Renegade Knight

1.2k · October 25, 2004

I would like to see this feature so that I could actually have a complete GPX file of my finds. Even if Lep singed an agreement because I found it and I want a record of my logs and finds.

As for archived caches that I haven't found, I'd be happy with the email notification that they have been archived.

You want an e-mail for every cache the gets archived that you have not found? That might be a LOT of e-mails. Why would you want information on a cache archived in London. Are you building a list of all caches in the world?

As for archived caches you have found my understanding is that you can download them individually as a .loc file and integrate them into your .Gpx file for your record. You have your logs of caches found you could search them to locate caches you do not have in your "found" Gpx file.

24.7k · October 25, 2004

...You want an e-mail for every cache the gets archived that you have not found? That might be a LOT of e-mails. Why would you want information on a cache archived in London. Are you building a list of all caches in the world?

As for archived caches you have found my understanding is that you can download them individually as a .loc file and integrate them into your .Gpx file for your record. You have your logs of caches found you could search them to locate caches you do not have in your "found" Gpx file.

I get emails on new caches. I'd like an email on archived caches. There is no reason to make the request more complex than what it already is for whatever radius GC.com uses right now on it's email list. This is especially handy in a cache maggot prone area.

As for the reast I'm having a hard time following you. A LOC doesn't have logs. The GPX in a PQ has your own log and that covers the minimum I'm after. But I'm not aware of being able to generate that GPX either one cache at a time, (there is one spot I've not looked for that option). A GPX file of all my found caches incluing the ones archived and incluing my log at a minimum is what I'd like to see. That was supposed to be in the works (not sure about incluing archived caches). What I'd really like is a complete history of the cache.

Right now it's hard enough to get good information on what I've found, and on what's happening in my corner of the world. When I get that problems solved I'll consider the every cache in the world bit.

Edited October 25, 2004 by Renegade Knight

October 25, 2004

But I'm not aware of being able to generate that GPX either one cache at a time, (there is one spot I've not looked for that option).

To get GPX's one at a time (archived or not), while logged in to gc.com, go to the cache page. Under "Click icon to download", you will see "GPS eXchange file (*.gpx).

If you are not logged in the GPX icon doesn't appear.

7.2k · October 25, 2004

KA,

I understand where you're coming from, but your argument is based on an agreement with one orgainzation. This site serves the World. Must we force the functionality of this site adhere to the requirements of one small portion of the geocaching world?

There has to be ways to adjust functionality to accomdate all areas.

What if another state required that all caches be visible? Required caches archived because they were prohibited to be visible as a warning to others? Outlawed MOCs?

The site should be flexible enough to accomodate most anyone.

If one of your caches requires that you can't view it after archiving then fine, that cache should pretty much go away. But don't make the rest of the world obey what the PA SNDR requires.

As for your choice of software solutions, I moved away from the totally dynamic model to GSAK because of the 5 log limit. Far too many times did we come across sitiuations where prior logs could have saved the day, but they weren't included. Now, we have logs on most any cache we are likely to hunt from back when we started collecting them. It's quite helpful.

9.1k · October 25, 2004

For the record, "KA" has not expressed an opinion on this issue, nor should he, except if needed to clarify what Geocaching.com is currently doing about the issue under discussion, or to moderate the various wolves that sometimes try to steal his sheep.

It is Leprechaun who is expressing his personal opinion in a rather strident fashion, yet consistent with the forum guidelines. It makes me feel all tingly!

I like to find caches without reading the prior logs, so I guess that is one reason why I've never felt the need to try GSAK. I know that many others enjoy building an offsite database.

I've read quite a few land manager policies, and I could practically swear that Pennsylvania's isn't the only one that says the online cache listings need to be "removed" or "deleted" when the cache is physically removed from the park. I would do some research, but I'm off to host a group of visitors who want to find caches until midnight!

5.3k · October 25, 2004

How does failure to give people carrying notebooks filled with printed cache pages or waypoints loaded into their units notice that caches they may be seeking were archived jive with those rules?

You can't, of course, vaporize all such traces of cached geocache data, but it seems odd to not at least offer the data required to shootdown such local copies.

As for Leprechaun's reason #1 in his first post in this thread, that's a lovely supporting point to the argument that the "is active" box should be checked by default when creating a PQ.

24.7k · October 26, 2004

...I've read quite a few land manager policies, and I could practically swear that Pennsylvania's isn't the only one that says the online cache listings need to be "removed" or "deleted" when the cache is physically removed from the park...

I would agree with the listing since all that is, is an active status. Once archived it's no longer listed.

However I do not agree with any policy that would remove the cache record and the cache logs. Reasons of national security not withstanding. We need to know why a cache was removed to learn from it's prior existance.

Since my list post I did find the download GPX link for a single cache. Not the best solution but one that works for my found caches that have been archived.

7.2k · October 26, 2004

For the record, "KA" has not expressed an opinion...

Is it me or are some moderator/approver-types operating more often under their civilian 'nyms of late?

Regardless of the account, the person behind the masks are the same.

Anyway, there has to be a solution.

Oh, we like to find caches without reading the logs, too. Generally, I haven't even looked at the discription, Sissy has. If it's not found within a few minutes it's typical to hear me ask, "any clue what the container is?" 98% of the time it's found by then. It's the few that takes a while where the hint and then the logs are required.

October 29, 2004

I think there is a different reason why archived caches should be made easier to find. Not everyone is responsible like The Leprechans and removes caches from the woods when archived. Some caches are archived when the owner goes inactive and the caches are left in the field as geo-litter. I had one such cache on my watch list (GC143B); I suspected it was still in the woods, so I kept the listing in my watchlist. I eventually went and found the archived cache in place 18 months after it was archived. I tried to adopt and replace it, but a new cache was too close, so I eventually removed it. Some may think that only falls on the individual irresponsible cacher, but I expect that repeated instances would mess up the hobby overall as we gain a reputation of not being able to clean up after ourselves, CITO events not withstanding.

Fortunately, this circumstance is rare. But any instance is too much. I believe that a list of archived caches should be made available so that we (responsible cachers hobby-wide in general) can check to make sure that they are really out of the woods. In some (hopefully most) cases, we would only need to read in the logs where the responsible owner said he/she cleaned the spot, or a prior finder confirmed that it really was gone. Other spots would need a prior finder to actually go out and check the location and clean any litter. Cases where someone removed their listings from GC.com and relisted them with a competitive caching site would also need to be noted so they can be left alone (I've got two in my area like that). I've suggested such help from TPTB; the refusal to offer info on archived caches was quite short and disappointing. Finding archived caches through the random chance of it being in a profile one happens to look at doesn't really cut it in this case either, the one that gets missed would be the one that causes a problem with a park manager (Murphy's Law still works when you least need it too).

Since Sissy-n-CR participates in this thread, the cache (GC26AC) in Santee SP is one that I found through someone else's find list that I wonder about. That whole state park system treats caching well with three good active caches in that same park, so I hope we aren't littering there. I'm not saying Sissy-n-CR is responsible, but it's a cache that they have found in the past, that makes a good example of what I'm talking about, because it was archived by an admin based on the hider's refusal to acknowledge a maintance request.

Just in case anyboby wonders, I go back through the archived caches that I have found to check for additional problems from time to time. The one I mentioned in the first paragraph has been the only one I have found so far. There are three recently archived that I'm going to make time for in the next couple months for a revisit.

24.7k · October 29, 2004

QOCMike, you have valid concerns, and they are worth commeting on, but in another thread.

November 6, 2004

QOCMike, you have valid concerns, and they are worth commeting on, but in another thread.

I was just trying to setup a pocket query to do exactly what is being discussed in this thread. I was trying to make a pocket query to show me any caches in Nova Scotia, Canada that have been archived.

I wanted to do this for 2 reasons. The first reason was to look back in the past and see what these older caches were like. We started caching in Sept 2003, and a lot of the older caches here in Nova Scotia have unfortunately gone missing.

The second reason was to go and investigate these areas where the caches used to be. If the area used to have a cache, and it's a nice area, it may be the perfect location for a new cache. Probably not in the exact same coordinates, but in the same general area.

I had never thought of QOCMike's reasoning behind the archived cache listing, but he has valid points as well.

Most of the options that I would like already exist. If there was a checkbox we could mark under "THAT" which says "Have Been Archived". People can check whatever other options they wish.

For my purpose, I would create a rule to show me all archived caches in Nova Scotia, limit it to 450, include all types except event caches, run once a week.

I could then start investigating some of these other areas and see if they are suitable for a "replacement" cache.

What are the chances something like this could be developed?

Thanks,

Tim

(aka: The Geek of The Hurricane Geeks)

Including Archived Caches In Pqs?

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