Find Or Note?

5k · October 30, 2004

I have a logging dilemma that I need resolved by consensus of the group.

Several weeks ago I attempted to find a night time multi-cache which hadn't been found for almost a year. I was accompanied by one of the previous finders.

When we got to the area, we saw that it had been changed considerably. In fact, most of the trees where there used to be reflectors had been cut down. The area, which had been woods, was now strewn with branches and stumps. We stumbled around in the dark for a while, but never even found the first leg. Owing to the work, we assumed it was gone.

I had already emailed the owner of the cache, and after posting my DNF, the local approved disabled the cache based on the report in my log. As far as I know, nobody had yet heard from the owner.

Another cacher emailed me suggesting we go check it out, so we discussed this, partially on the cache page. Our goal was to retrieve whatever was left of the cache so that it wouldn't be left out in the woods. I obtained the coordinates from the approver to help us locate the three legs in the daytime.

The day before our planned trip, the owner posted a note saying he would check it out and asked us not to take the containers. At the same time, he archived the cache.

Today, we went out there. I really had little hope of finding anything. However, to our great shock, we found all three legs of this cache. The first two were right in the middle of the logging work. One cache was almost totally obscured under a pile of brush and branches. The trees which two of the legs were attached to (ammo boxes secured from flooding with a short cable) were actually cut down, but the boxes were still there.

So, do I log this as a find? The containers were still where they were supposed to be. However, I had the information supplied to me by the approver. I couldn't have found two of the legs in the daylight otherwise. And with the missing reflectors, finding it at night would have been impossible.

The cache was archived two days ago, and I was fully aware. I only intended to find one, maybe two of the containers and pull them so they weren't litter. My plan was to log a note detailing my observations about the cache and the area. But now that we were able to find all of them, and since we didn't take the containers--and we signed the logbook... it all sure feels like a find.

Can I, in good conscience, log a find where the approver gave me the coordinates to each leg of a multi? Or should I just log a note and upload the photos I took?

This is the cache: GCH4F4

Please, no editorials about the cache or owner. I only would like to know whther to log a find or note.

Jamie

Edited October 30, 2004 by Jamie Z

4.7k · October 30, 2004

you don't mention what the owner's opinion is on the matter. usually if you circumnavigate the stages, you get to call it a find. i'm not sure if you get to call it a find if they were handed to you. you didn't have to figure out how to get around the stages yourself.

other hand, you DID find it and went to a good amount of effort for it.

outside of information about the owner's opinion whether or not you should call it found, i'd have to abstain. i don't see a compelling argument one way or the other.

6.4k · October 30, 2004

Jamie, since it's a multi, and you used info you normally wouldn't have, I'm leaning toward a note. If it was a traditional cache, I'd log it as a find in a heartbeat.

3.9k · October 30, 2004

Since you found it with help from an approver, I would say a note.

El Diablo

2.7k · October 30, 2004

You found it.

Number of clues and from whom is irrelevant.

Since owner has archived it, I would assume he has no intention of refurbishing it. Why he would want to travel to Tennessee himself to get his property when a volunteer has offered to get it FOR him would make an interesting story.

This would be an interesting one to watch- see if he does go to claim his property any time soon.

October 30, 2004

It seems you were on a geolitter retrieval expidition with all the cache info supplied.

While this is very commendable, I feel it is not a find.

October 30, 2004

Jamie, since it's a multi, and you used info you normally wouldn't have, I'm leaning toward a note. If it was a traditional cache, I'd log it as a find in a heartbeat.

I would tend to agree, IF he had used the information to go straight to the final leg, and never bothered with the first two, but that is not the case.

The facts are that all the information given to him could have been found out by finding the first and second legs of the cache, which he DID. Even if he found all three legs in reverse order, using the info from the approver, he still found them all, and has demonstrated that he could easily have found all three, given only the location for stage 1, which is standard multi-cache practice.

IMHO, he has earned a find log.

21.9k · October 30, 2004

This is an extremely close call, and I'm sure everyone will continue to be respectful of competing opinions. I am posting under my moderator account because the issue of how to handle the proposed rescue mission was discussed in the reviewers' forum. How to handle this situation was a challenge over there, too, at the beginning of the week. I suggested giving fair warning on the cache page of the upcoming rescue, and in hindsight that appears to have been the right choice.

Under the circumstances, if a find is logged there is a higher than normal likelihood that it would be deleted by the owner. And, since the cache was not completed as the owner intended it... by finding the coordinates at night, rather than obtaining them from the reviewer... he would be within his rights to delete the log. By the same logic, perhaps a note is the more appropriate route at this time.

On the other hand, I am not opposed to someone claiming one final smiley on a successful rescue mission as a sort of little reward for picking up an abandoned cache. It was for this purpose that the coordinates for the other stages were furnished. And, hearing your report, it sounds highly unlikely that the cache stages could've been found in any other manner.

But here, once we finally did hear back from the owner, the cache cannot be said to have been abandoned.

Yet.

Finally, Jamie, I would like to thank you for your conscientious approach to both the problem with this cache and also in trying to decide how to log your visit.

Edited October 30, 2004 by Keystone Approver

October 30, 2004

Geolitter retrievals should be rewarded and you found the cache. I think you should log a find.

A what if... What if the owner had refurbished the cache before your hike? Would it be fair to disqualify you from EVER logging a find on that cache because you recieved coords from the approver for the geolitter removal? Maybe you would have left the paper at home, but you'd have likely remembered them if you needed them in the field.

Keep the coords. No one has the right to litter a park with an inactive cache. You might be cleaning it soon anyway.

5.3k · October 30, 2004

I say log a note (and tell your landlord to shove it :rolleyes: )

October 31, 2004

Did you sign the log book? Isn't that what we always judge these things by? I say find. :rolleyes:

24.7k · October 31, 2004

Email the owner as a courtesy. It's a find in my book but because of the nature of things I'd ask just in case.

Today I happened on the 8th leg of a 9 leg multi cache that I've had on my to do list. When I find the last leg I'm going to log a find. True it's not what the owner intended but fortune smiles sometimes.

5k · November 10, 2004

Man. Tough crowd.

Opinions seemed to be more-or-less split. Those that said note said I found the cache using "help" from the approver.

Those that said find said I "deserved" the find for the extra work.

I don't think doing anything good or extra gets a smiley. I think a find gets a smiley, and because the purpose of this trip was to determine the status of the cache, plus I did have the coordinates supplied by someone else, I decided to log a note.

You might find an interesting read and some cool pics:

Post a Note

Jamie

1.1k · November 10, 2004

People say that it is not about the NUMBERS. if it is NOT about the NUMBERS then just log a note. If alls you care about is smilies then do whatever. Apparently you went there just to do a good dead and pick up som waste, but now it seems a smilie is in your face.

cheers

7.2k · November 10, 2004

Personally, I wouldn't care either way how you log it, but let's explore something here.

Do we or do we not allow finds on caches you stumble across? Of course we do.

Do we or do we not allow finds on caches that some joker left in full view? Of course we do.

Do we or do we not allow finds on caches where you skipped a step or two? Of course we do.

Heck, even in the unfortunate case of someone cheating to find the final and log it, we have to allow it. (Topic of another thread.)

It seems the issue here is if Jamie found the cache the way the owner intended. He didn't. Considering there are already myriad of ways to garner a legitimate find without doing it the way the owner intended, I don't see why Jamie's case should be any different than any of the above.

IMPO, Jamie should both be commended AND be granted the blessing of the group for a smilie. After all, he did find the cache and that's good enough for me.

7.2k · November 10, 2004

...because the issue of how to handle the proposed rescue mission was discussed in the reviewers' forum.

You know, this is kind of disturbing. Will there be a open discussion of how to handle rescues or is the decisions just going to be handled behind closed doors?

Sounds like you guys have already made up your minds if a rescue deserves a smilie for someone who has yet to find that cache. I sincerely hope this is not the case.

21.9k · November 10, 2004

To clarify, the sole issue brought before the reviewers in our separate forum is whether it was appropriate for the reviewer to provide JamieZ with the coordinates for the other stages of the multicache. The reviewers don't get involved in whether or not someone is entitled to a smiley on a particular cache.

7.2k · November 10, 2004

The reviewers don't get involved in whether or not someone is entitled to a smiley on a particular cache.

My faith be restored!

5k · November 10, 2004

...because the issue of how to handle the proposed rescue mission was discussed in the reviewers' forum.

You know, this is kind of disturbing. Will there be a open discussion of how to handle rescues or is the decisions just going to be handled behind closed doors?

I'll chime in here on Keystone's behalf, since I know more-or-less what went on behind the scenes.

The cache is a 3-part multi, but the coords listed are the parking coords. The coords for the three boxes are part of the puzzle. Therefore, I had no idea where any of the boxes were. Neither did a previous finder who went with me on a hunt. It was a night cache, and hadn't been found in almost a year. He said he couldn't remember exactly where the boxes were hidden. Plus, the terrain had changed significantly.

I had emailed the owner roughly a month prior to my "rescue" asking him about the cache. He hadn't responded, nor logged into the gc site for several weeks.

I posted on the cache page that I thought it would be a good idea to retrieve the containers, lest they be left out there for trash. That is, if the containers even existed.

I emailed the local approver to ask if he could give me the coords to all the stages of the cache. The approver went to the approver forum to discuss whether this was ethical to give me coords that wouldn't otherwise be public.

After a few days, he emailed me the coords, and then soon after, the owner of the cache posted a note to his page angrily asking us to leave his ammo boxes alone.

Despite this, another cacher and I went out there to see what was left. My log is the report.

You're right. The question of whether the coords should be distributed could have been discussed publicly. In any case, it was handled quickly, and that's all I asked.

Jamie

[added]

Man, while I was typing that, not only did Keystone himself respond, but CR responded to Keystone. I'm far too wordy.

Edited November 10, 2004 by Jamie Z

5k · November 10, 2004

The reviewers don't get involved in whether or not someone is entitled to a smiley on a particular cache.

Exactly. That's why I created this topic in the first place, for public opinion.

Jamie

7.2k · November 10, 2004

Oh. Well, considering that, I was off topic.

This is tough. Considering the urgent nature of recovering the cans and the short notice to the owner. This could go either way. I probably would have erred on recovering the cans myself. It's unfortunate the owner failed to respond in a timely fashion and then responded the way he did. I doubt the loggers waited around for the caches to be recovered and they are now most likely destroyed.

Jamie, I still think you could log a smilie without any guilt.

2.5k · November 10, 2004

I wish we could see the cache page.

Here's my theory, though.

You found the first step of the cache, which would have lead you to the second step of the cache, which would have led you to the third step of the cache eventually, anyway, even if you didn't have the cords to them, correct? (Again, this is where the cache page would help) Or were those reflectors that are all missing or on the ground what would have got you there?

I say log it as a find. It's only a game, get your smilie!

November 10, 2004

Jeez, after looking at your notes on the cache page, I think you deserve that "find".

The first trip was just plain weird and the second trip you did the owner and the community a great service.

2k · November 10, 2004

You found it, mark it as found.

It's just a game....

4.8k · November 10, 2004

Either is OK with me. I think a find is OK basically for the reasons that CR gave.

November 10, 2004

Jamie, I have been following this developing situation closely, partly because I was really looking forward to doing this cache if and when it was up and running again, and partly because I'm just new around here and want to support anyone's good faith efforts to make geocaching in this area better. In my limited experience (since 5 June, hope to hit #200 this weekend), I would log a note {edit: because I had reviewer help}, however, if you want to log it as a find (and the cache owner doesn't delete your log), I don't have any problem with it, and don't see why anyone else should either. Your find count is just that, yours, it means as much or a little as you want it to. Personally, I think what y'all did was commendable, I wouldn't presume to question you either way. It's just a game, folks!...Okay, it's a maddeningly addictive, naturally competitive, obsessive compulsive game, but it's still just a game!

Edited November 10, 2004 by Spencersb

2k · November 10, 2004

FWW I'd post a note, but I'm not a numbers guy.

November 10, 2004

If it were me, I'd post a note. The find, although a good thing, was not done in the spirit of the cache.

5k · November 10, 2004

I wish we could see the cache page.

The link has been posted for almost two weeks in the very first post of this thread.

Jamie

5k · November 10, 2004

FWW I'd post a note, but I'm not a numbers guy.

I can't say whether I'd call myself a "numbers guy" or not. In fact, I don't think that's relevent here. It's not whether I want another smiley, it's whether or not this instance qualifies. It's all about the accuracy.

Mostly I'm a purist, so that part of me wanted to be sure that if I were to have logged this as a find, that that would be appropriate. I like my Finds/DNFs/Notes to accurately reflect my experience.

I've used (and been ridiculed for) using the word "integrity" in these forums. Still, I'm holding to that policy.

Jamie

5k · November 10, 2004

I doubt the loggers waited around for the caches to be recovered and they are now most likely destroyed.

CR,

Actually, it appears that the logging work is done. They took what they wanted and left. There is no heavy machinery around anymore. And not many more trees to come back for.

The caches made it through the destruction. I imagine they will be there for quite a while.

Jamie

7.2k · November 10, 2004

The caches made it through the destruction. I imagine they will be there for quite a while.

That's good news.

Heck, if it were local to me and I hadn't found it, I might consider this a challenge to find, archived or not. I figure until it's been removed it is still fair game.

8.1k · November 10, 2004

This is a very close call and a personal choice. However, the following statement would lead me to log it as a note...

since the cache was not completed as the owner intended it... by finding the coordinates at night, rather than obtaining them from the reviewer... he would be within his rights to delete the log

If I were doing the person a favor and replacing the cache for them, while going through all the stages to check on it, a find.

If I get insider information that leads me to skip all the stages and go straight to the final cache. A note.

November 10, 2004

Like Woof asked earlier. Did you sign the logbook?

If so, log the smiley if you're comfortable with that.

If the owner feels like deleting it, that's their perogative.

I think it's okay to search for and report on the condition of an ailing cache.

It bothers me though, that removing (one man's) trash was even considered after the owner had responded with instructions not to mess with it.

Why does such a veteran caching expert consider this such a dilema?

November 10, 2004

I've used (and been ridiculed for) using the word "integrity" in these forums. Still, I'm holding to that policy.

There's certainly lots of worse things to be ridiculed for!

7.2k · November 10, 2004

It bothers me though, that removing (one man's) trash was even considered after the owner had responded with instructions not to mess with it.

I didn't get that impression. I thought the dilemma was hunting the cache after getting extraordinary help and whether to claim it as a find.

2.5k · November 10, 2004

I say that since the original cords took you to the first box, which had cords in them, which took you to the second box, which had cords in it, that you would have managed the cache without the cords from TG.

2k · November 11, 2004

FWW I'd post a note, but I'm not a numbers guy.

I can't say whether I'd call myself a "numbers guy" or not. In fact, I don't think that's relevent here. It's not whether I want another smiley, it's whether or not this instance qualifies. It's all about the accuracy.

Mostly I'm a purist, so that part of me wanted to be sure that if I were to have logged this as a find, that that would be appropriate. I like my Finds/DNFs/Notes to accurately reflect my experience.

I've used (and been ridiculed for) using the word "integrity" in these forums. Still, I'm holding to that policy.

Jamie

In that case I'd log it as a find, if you signed the log. You reported the trouble you had in your log so the owner has th echance to correct the situation or archive the cache.

5k · November 11, 2004

It bothers me though, that removing (one man's) trash was even considered after the owner had responded with instructions not to mess with it.

Why does such a veteran caching expert consider this such a dilema?

We did not consider removing the ammo boxes after the owner responded. The thing is, he hadn't responded for quite some time. During the time that he wasn't responding, that was our plan. When he posted the note to the page asking us not to remove them, the other cacher and I discussed things in email and decided to go out there anyway, just for a look.

Why is the log a dilemma? For the reasons I've stated. The cache was archived. We found it in the daytime (it's a night cache) and we had the coordinates to all three stages beforehand from the approver.

I've decided that since the purpose of the trip was to assess the condition, I could not log a find. I think had some or all of the boxes been missing, I may have only reported this in a note also, rather than a DNF.

Jamie

3.8k · November 11, 2004

You signed the logbook. You're entitled to a find.

The cache owner is entitled to deny the find if he chooses.

I would have logged a note, too. :unsure:

Find Or Note?

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