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Well, that's one. We have another to color this done?
PS: I'm satisfied with the basic tenets. The examples need some work still, I think. Some the examples can be rolled into one.
Geocachers Code Of Ethics Revisited
#152
Posted 08 December 2004 - 07:15 AM
I agree that you have to draw the line somewhere. I think the tenants are sound. Here's a stab at consolidating the examples. Sorry I didn't have time to mark changes. Maybe you can splice this into your favorite word processor to compare.
If I've shortened or combined your pet item, my apologies. Even at this, the examples are a page and a half of typed text.
...Not endanger myself or others.
. Geocaching, as an outdoor activity, involves some inherent risk. There is no way to eliminate all risk; many geocachers thrive on manageable risk.
. As a placer, describe your cache to advise finders fully of any dangers involved, and arrange the hunt to minimize hidden dangers.
. As a finder, know your limitations and be aware of your surroundings. Don't attempt anything beyond your limits.
...Observe all laws and rules of the area.
. Don't break the law to place a cache, break the law to hunt a cache, or place caches that encourage someone to break the law or rules of the area.
. Don't leave dangerous or illegal items in a cache.
. Recognizing a cache could be found by children or even a prisoner work crew, don't leave any item that you wouldn't just walk up and hand them.
. Pay attention to the area and local conditions. For example, some drought stricken areas have forbidden matches and lighters.
...Respect property rights and seek permission where appropriate.
. Seek permission on all private property if it's not generally open to public access.
. Check to see if any public land has a geocaching policy. Follow the recommendations and restrictions of the stewards.
...Avoid causing disruptions or public alarm.
. Avoid placing a cache near schools, or other government building, without the administration and staff being fully aware of the placement.
. Avoid placing a cache on, under, or near critical infrastructure that might be considered a terrorist target.
. Don't create a cache that could be mistaken for a terrorist device (e.g. a pipe bomb).
...Minimize my and others' impact on the environment.
. Follow Leave No Trace ethics whenever possible.
. Obtain the best possible coordinates for your cache. If seekers consistently get significantly different readings, recheck the coordinates to reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area.
. Leave the area you cache in as you find it or better.
. Put all of the stones or logs back where you found them.
. Do not disrupt the cache area or otherwise mark the hiding spot.
...be considerate of others.
. Treat other geocachers civilly –– in the field, in the forums, or wherever your paths may cross.
. If you trade, trade kindly: Consider what future finders would like to trade for, and leave something equal to or better than what you take.
. Move hitchers hikers along with their goal if possible. Don’t hold them for too long. Contact the owner if you hold them for more than a few weeks.
. Don't step on others' toes by placing your cache too close to another.
. Don't copy unique themes and techniques without permission.
. Promptly alert the owner of any issues with their cache. Make minor repairs if you can; it will save the owner a trip.
...Protect the integrity of the gamepiece.
. Leave the cache as you find it or better for the next finder. Hide it as well as or better than you found it. The owner entrusts you to not damage or jeopardize the cache.
. Use caution and judgment when hunting a cache to prevent onlookers from discovering the location of the cache. Be inconspicuous in retrieving and replacing the cache to avoid vandalization.
. Make sure the container is properly closed to prevent the contents from getting wet and/or destroyed.
. Do not move the cache to match your reading.
. If you suspect the cache is not in its intended hiding spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner immediately.
. Do not collect hitchhikers or other traveling items meant to stay in the wild. This is tantamount to stealing.
. Don't tamper with or involve a gamepiece in "alternate" games without permission.
. Minimize spoilers. Don't give away clues unsolicited. Respect owner's wishes if it is requested that previous finders not help later ones.
If I've shortened or combined your pet item, my apologies. Even at this, the examples are a page and a half of typed text.
...Not endanger myself or others.
. Geocaching, as an outdoor activity, involves some inherent risk. There is no way to eliminate all risk; many geocachers thrive on manageable risk.
. As a placer, describe your cache to advise finders fully of any dangers involved, and arrange the hunt to minimize hidden dangers.
. As a finder, know your limitations and be aware of your surroundings. Don't attempt anything beyond your limits.
...Observe all laws and rules of the area.
. Don't break the law to place a cache, break the law to hunt a cache, or place caches that encourage someone to break the law or rules of the area.
. Don't leave dangerous or illegal items in a cache.
. Recognizing a cache could be found by children or even a prisoner work crew, don't leave any item that you wouldn't just walk up and hand them.
. Pay attention to the area and local conditions. For example, some drought stricken areas have forbidden matches and lighters.
...Respect property rights and seek permission where appropriate.
. Seek permission on all private property if it's not generally open to public access.
. Check to see if any public land has a geocaching policy. Follow the recommendations and restrictions of the stewards.
...Avoid causing disruptions or public alarm.
. Avoid placing a cache near schools, or other government building, without the administration and staff being fully aware of the placement.
. Avoid placing a cache on, under, or near critical infrastructure that might be considered a terrorist target.
. Don't create a cache that could be mistaken for a terrorist device (e.g. a pipe bomb).
...Minimize my and others' impact on the environment.
. Follow Leave No Trace ethics whenever possible.
. Obtain the best possible coordinates for your cache. If seekers consistently get significantly different readings, recheck the coordinates to reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area.
. Leave the area you cache in as you find it or better.
. Put all of the stones or logs back where you found them.
. Do not disrupt the cache area or otherwise mark the hiding spot.
...be considerate of others.
. Treat other geocachers civilly –– in the field, in the forums, or wherever your paths may cross.
. If you trade, trade kindly: Consider what future finders would like to trade for, and leave something equal to or better than what you take.
. Move hitchers hikers along with their goal if possible. Don’t hold them for too long. Contact the owner if you hold them for more than a few weeks.
. Don't step on others' toes by placing your cache too close to another.
. Don't copy unique themes and techniques without permission.
. Promptly alert the owner of any issues with their cache. Make minor repairs if you can; it will save the owner a trip.
...Protect the integrity of the gamepiece.
. Leave the cache as you find it or better for the next finder. Hide it as well as or better than you found it. The owner entrusts you to not damage or jeopardize the cache.
. Use caution and judgment when hunting a cache to prevent onlookers from discovering the location of the cache. Be inconspicuous in retrieving and replacing the cache to avoid vandalization.
. Make sure the container is properly closed to prevent the contents from getting wet and/or destroyed.
. Do not move the cache to match your reading.
. If you suspect the cache is not in its intended hiding spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner immediately.
. Do not collect hitchhikers or other traveling items meant to stay in the wild. This is tantamount to stealing.
. Don't tamper with or involve a gamepiece in "alternate" games without permission.
. Minimize spoilers. Don't give away clues unsolicited. Respect owner's wishes if it is requested that previous finders not help later ones.
This post has been edited by Sputnik 57: 08 December 2004 - 07:20 AM
#153
Posted 08 December 2004 - 07:22 AM
CoyoteRed, on Dec 8 2004, 05:44 AM, said:
Well, that's one. We have another to color this done?
PS: I'm satisfied with the basic tenets. The examples need some work still, I think. Some the examples can be rolled into one.
PS: I'm satisfied with the basic tenets. The examples need some work still, I think. Some the examples can be rolled into one.
I agree. The basic tenets are fine. Examples may evolve a little as new situations and problems come to light.
#154
Posted 08 December 2004 - 11:29 AM
Here are my dos centavos. I have eliminated some redundancy and reworded some parts, but I believe all of the original concepts are in tact. Conciseness in a document like this is important.
...Not endanger others or myself.
. Geocaching, an outdoor activity, involves some inherent risk. There is no way to eliminate all risk; many geocachers thrive on manageable risk.
. As a placer, describe fully, and arrange the hunt to minimize hidden dangers.
. As a finder, know your limitations and be aware of your surroundings.
...Observe all laws and rules of the area.
. Don't break laws or rules (or encourage others) to place a cache or hunt a cache.
. Don't leave dangerous or illegal items in a cache; children or even a prisoner work crew could find it.
. Pay attention to local conditions. For example, some drought stricken areas have forbidden matches and lighters.
...Respect property rights and seek permission where appropriate.
. Seek permission on all private property if it's not generally open to public access.
. Check to see if public land has a geocaching policy and respect it.
...Avoid causing disruptions or public alarm.
. Avoid placing a cache near schools, or other government buildings, without the administration and staff being fully aware of the placement.
. Avoid placing a cache near critical infrastructure that might be considered a terrorist target.
. Don't create a cache that could be mistaken for a terrorist device (e.g. a pipe bomb).
...Minimize my and others' impact on the environment.
. Whenever possible, Leave No Trace.
. Obtain the best possible coordinates for your cache to reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area.
. Do not disrupt the cache area or otherwise mark the hiding spot.
...Be considerate of others.
. Treat other geocachers civilly –– in the field, in the forums, or wherever your paths may cross.
. If you trade, trade kindly: Consider what future finders would like to trade for, and leave something equal to or better than what you take.
. Move hitchhikers toward their goals if possible. Contact the owner if you hold them for more than a few weeks. Do not collect hitchhikers. This is tantamount to stealing.
. Don't step on others' toes by placing your cache too close to another.
. Don't copy unique themes and techniques without permission.
...Protect the integrity of the game piece.
. Hide the cache as you found it for the next finder. If you suspect the cache is not in its intended hiding spot, alert the owner immediately. Do not move the cache to match your reading. Make minor repairs if you can; it will save the owner a trip.
. Be inconspicuous in retrieving and replacing the cache to avoid vandalism.
. Make sure the container is properly closed to prevent the contents from getting wet or damaged.
. Don't tamper with or involve a game piece in "alternate" games without permission.
. Minimize spoilers. Don't give away unsolicited clues. Respect owner's wishes if it is requested that previous finders not help later ones.
...Not endanger others or myself.
. Geocaching, an outdoor activity, involves some inherent risk. There is no way to eliminate all risk; many geocachers thrive on manageable risk.
. As a placer, describe fully, and arrange the hunt to minimize hidden dangers.
. As a finder, know your limitations and be aware of your surroundings.
...Observe all laws and rules of the area.
. Don't break laws or rules (or encourage others) to place a cache or hunt a cache.
. Don't leave dangerous or illegal items in a cache; children or even a prisoner work crew could find it.
. Pay attention to local conditions. For example, some drought stricken areas have forbidden matches and lighters.
...Respect property rights and seek permission where appropriate.
. Seek permission on all private property if it's not generally open to public access.
. Check to see if public land has a geocaching policy and respect it.
...Avoid causing disruptions or public alarm.
. Avoid placing a cache near schools, or other government buildings, without the administration and staff being fully aware of the placement.
. Avoid placing a cache near critical infrastructure that might be considered a terrorist target.
. Don't create a cache that could be mistaken for a terrorist device (e.g. a pipe bomb).
...Minimize my and others' impact on the environment.
. Whenever possible, Leave No Trace.
. Obtain the best possible coordinates for your cache to reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area.
. Do not disrupt the cache area or otherwise mark the hiding spot.
...Be considerate of others.
. Treat other geocachers civilly –– in the field, in the forums, or wherever your paths may cross.
. If you trade, trade kindly: Consider what future finders would like to trade for, and leave something equal to or better than what you take.
. Move hitchhikers toward their goals if possible. Contact the owner if you hold them for more than a few weeks. Do not collect hitchhikers. This is tantamount to stealing.
. Don't step on others' toes by placing your cache too close to another.
. Don't copy unique themes and techniques without permission.
...Protect the integrity of the game piece.
. Hide the cache as you found it for the next finder. If you suspect the cache is not in its intended hiding spot, alert the owner immediately. Do not move the cache to match your reading. Make minor repairs if you can; it will save the owner a trip.
. Be inconspicuous in retrieving and replacing the cache to avoid vandalism.
. Make sure the container is properly closed to prevent the contents from getting wet or damaged.
. Don't tamper with or involve a game piece in "alternate" games without permission.
. Minimize spoilers. Don't give away unsolicited clues. Respect owner's wishes if it is requested that previous finders not help later ones.
#155
Posted 08 December 2004 - 06:11 PM
IMHO, Sept1c just about has it, subject to CR's editorial review, and any further comments. I noticed that Jeremy dropped by once, and KA has been mostly hands off (but very helpful in keeping the placeholder post updated). Other forum regulars must have seen this pinned thread, and could add their $.02. Do any other mods or approvers feel the need to chime in before this "goes to press"?
I would really like to extend thanks to CR and Kai Team for working on this so diligently. Also thanks to the Puzzler for providing a soundly argued counterpoint while maintaining a positive point of view. I think this is a work of which everyone who contributed can be proud.
Renegade Knight, in another thread, commented that the forums have taken on a more "neighborly" tone lately (actually, that might have been the Puzzler's phrase). I can't help but think that this thread has contributed to that.
Waiting for the next post to slam me for being so smug and self-congratulatory when geocaching and ethics are so obviously antithetical 
I would really like to extend thanks to CR and Kai Team for working on this so diligently. Also thanks to the Puzzler for providing a soundly argued counterpoint while maintaining a positive point of view. I think this is a work of which everyone who contributed can be proud.
Renegade Knight, in another thread, commented that the forums have taken on a more "neighborly" tone lately (actually, that might have been the Puzzler's phrase). I can't help but think that this thread has contributed to that.
Waiting for the next post to slam me for being so smug and self-congratulatory when geocaching and ethics are so obviously antithetical
#156
Posted 08 December 2004 - 09:03 PM
Sputnik 57, on Dec 8 2004, 06:11 PM, said:
Waiting for the next post to slam me for being so smug and self-congratulatory when geocaching and ethics are so obviously antithetical 
How can I pass that up you smug, self-congratulatory space trash.
You guys really do deserve kudos for your community effort!
#157
Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:16 AM
The Puzzler, on Dec 8 2004, 09:03 PM, said:
How can I pass that up you smug, self-congratulatory space trash. 
Space trash! That really hurts!
#158
Posted 09 December 2004 - 05:00 PM
Sputnik 57, on Dec 8 2004, 10:11 PM, said:
I would really like to extend thanks to CR and Kai Team for working on this so diligently. Also thanks to the Puzzler for providing a soundly argued counterpoint while maintaining a positive point of view. I think this is a work of which everyone who contributed can be proud.
The Puzzler, on Dec 9 2004, 01:03 AM, said:
You guys really do deserve kudos for your community effort!
Thanks for the positive feedback - it's sometimes hard to know if you're being helpful or just a pain in the *ss (or both
). I also would like to thank Coyote Red for starting and managing a challenging thread, and for doing the leg work of integrating the many comments into a coherent whole! The code is something we can all be proud of!I like what sept1c_tank did to shorten the examples, but in a few cases it may be a little too short - i.e. some of the examples loose important nuances in the short version. I trust CR to look back over the recommendations since the last update and integrate them into sept1c_tank's version, beefing things up where needed to insure the spirit of the examples is preserved and will be understood by newbies.
CR - are you up for crafting the next "official" (perhaps final) draft that can be posted for one last chance to comment?
#159
Posted 09 December 2004 - 05:03 PM
The last couple of days have been challenging. This weekend, I will set aside a block of time to do a final update.
#160
- Everything in Moderation
-
- Group: Site Wide Moderators
- Posts: 15449
- Joined: 16-May 03
Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:00 PM
Sputnik 57, on Dec 8 2004, 09:11 PM, said:
I noticed that Jeremy dropped by once, and KA has been mostly hands off (but very helpful in keeping the placeholder post updated). Other forum regulars must have seen this pinned thread, and could add their $.02. Do any other mods or approvers feel the need to chime in before this "goes to press"?
I have discussed the Code of Ethics with several members of the Groundspeak volunteer team. Although personally we each endorse the concept of the Code of Ethics, we believe strongly that it ought to be viewed as something developed by the community rather than an edict handed down by Groundspeak. Groundspeak can issue decrees on listing standards and so forth but the etiquette of finding, logging and trading at geocaches is the business of the cache owners and cache finders. Therefore, there has been minimal involvement in this topic by ordinarily loudmouthed volunteers like myself.
The rest of the geocaching community is doing just fine without us.
That being said, I really did think my one contribution... something about cache maintenance... ought to have found its way into the Code somewhere. I am disappointed that it seems to have dropped from the recent rewrites.
#161
Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:08 PM
Keystone Approver, on Dec 9 2004, 09:00 PM, said:
That being said, I really did think my one contribution... something about cache maintenance... ought to have found its way into the Code somewhere. I am disappointed that it seems to have dropped from the recent rewrites.
Frankly, so am I. But nothing's perfect, and personally, I think not abandoning your cache falls under both "integrity of the gamepiece" and "considerate of others." It's a voluntary code anyway, and everyone will interpret it a little differently. We could tweak on it for years and not make it substanitally better than it is now. let's put it to bed and get the word out, then see how people are reacting to it 3, 6, maybe 12 months ffrom now.
BZ to CR et.al. for bringing this to the forefront!
#162
Posted 10 December 2004 - 04:03 AM
Keystone Approver, on Dec 9 2004, 10:00 PM, said:
I am disappointed that it seems to have dropped from the recent rewrites.
There will have elements of cache owner responsibility in it. It's too important to not have it in there.
I though originally to have a seperate tenet dealing with this, but have reconsidered after thoughtful feedback.
Certain elements of owner responsibilty fall into different tenets. Not abandoning the cache is the same as not littering. Being able to maintain it falls under cache integrity. Being able to promptly respond to issues under "considerate."
It's divided up, but still will be in there.
#163
Posted 10 December 2004 - 09:55 AM
Keystone Approver, on Dec 9 2004, 07:00 PM, said:
Sputnik 57, on Dec 8 2004, 09:11 PM, said:
I noticed that Jeremy dropped by once, and KA has been mostly hands off (but very helpful in keeping the placeholder post updated). Other forum regulars must have seen this pinned thread, and could add their $.02. Do any other mods or approvers feel the need to chime in before this "goes to press"?
I have discussed the Code of Ethics with several members of the Groundspeak volunteer team. Although personally we each endorse the concept of the Code of Ethics, we believe strongly that it ought to be viewed as something developed by the community rather than an edict handed down by Groundspeak. Groundspeak can issue decrees on listing standards and so forth but the etiquette of finding, logging and trading at geocaches is the business of the cache owners and cache finders. Therefore, there has been minimal involvement in this topic by ordinarily loudmouthed volunteers like myself.
The rest of the geocaching community is doing just fine without us.
That being said, I really did think my one contribution... something about cache maintenance... ought to have found its way into the Code somewhere. I am disappointed that it seems to have dropped from the recent rewrites.
I'm glad that the folks at GC.com are not considering making this some kind of golden rule to place on the web site. When I first saw this pinned thread my thought was "not more rules!" The concept of having a members-based code of ethics, on the other hand, has real value and I support it. I am a Leave No Trace instructor for the Boy Scouts without being a set of rules that must be followed, their principles represent a nice concise set of standards that can be used in an educational arena. Likewise, if we had a generally accepted code of ethics, we could use them when introducing new geocachers to the sport. I also think there may be value to the idea of letting government agencies know that there is a code of ethics -- but a huge word of caution (from someone who works for one of those agencies) -- as soon as you do that, some nitwit government employee will try to create a form that must be signed where the cache owner agrees to follow the code before it gets approved. This leads potentially to review boards...etc. Please take care in how this is presented. Sometimes the best ideas don't pan out as expected unless an equal amount of care is taken in developing those ideas AND in presenting them to outsiders.
#164
Posted 10 December 2004 - 12:47 PM
Kai Team, on Dec 7 2004, 07:41 PM, said:
Regardless of how we approach it, we need to think very carefully about making this longer or more complex... Do others agree, or am I the only one who feels this way?
Do others agree, or am I the only one who feels this way?I agree completely. I think the main tenets are good. Overthinking will probably result in something less perfect than what is already there.
There's about a million do's and don'ts in geocaching and in any given situation one will override the others, etc. This list serves as a great statement of "this is what we generally hold to be ethical behavior in geocaching" without dictating and without having to build a flowchart of
Is there a barbed wire fence? --> NO --> Proceed
|
|
V
Yes
|
V
etc
Clear, concise, and hard to argue against. "I think protecting the integrity of the gamepiece is WRONG!" lol. Would love to be there when someone says that at an event
Anyway. Looks done to me. The minutia discussion could run into eternity.
#165
Posted 11 December 2004 - 07:27 PM
The next draft has been sent for inclusion.
Many thanks to Kai Team for consolidating the suggestions into something I could digest easier.
The solid bullets are meant to stand on their own with the open bullets further explanation of the further explanation.
When on a webpage the open bullet will probably be on a seperate page with much more similar further explanations. (Remember the LNT model.)
This is nearing the final draft. The tenets themselves I think are in their fianl form. The bulleted items are pretty close. If there is more to include, now is the time to speak up. I'll give it week and then open it for distribution.
Thanks folks!
Many thanks to Kai Team for consolidating the suggestions into something I could digest easier.
The solid bullets are meant to stand on their own with the open bullets further explanation of the further explanation.
When on a webpage the open bullet will probably be on a seperate page with much more similar further explanations. (Remember the LNT model.)This is nearing the final draft. The tenets themselves I think are in their fianl form. The bulleted items are pretty close. If there is more to include, now is the time to speak up. I'll give it week and then open it for distribution.
Thanks folks!
#166
Posted 12 December 2004 - 08:22 AM
This thread has become too long to read and I just came on it this morning. Here are some comments. I apologize in advance if I’m beating a dying or dead horse.
I would call “hitchers hikers” travel bug hitchhikers or TB hitchhikers. Some people may not know what hitchers hikers are. In fact, I don't know what hitchers are.
I don’t support “hide it as well as or better than you found it.” A problem with one of my caches is people keep “helping” me by hiding it in a “better” nearby place. If I had wanted it hidden there I would have hidden it there. In this case moving it makes the cache name meaningless. I would change it to the opposite. My statement would be “Don’t help the owner by hiding the cache in a different place, even if you think it’s better.
I’d change your other statement on this subject to read “If you [remove suspect] [add feel sure or are confident] the cache is not in the intended hiding spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner immediately.
So it would read:
Regarding the entry “Endeavor to obtain the best possible coordinates for your cache. If seekers consistently get significantly different readings, recheck the coordinates. This will reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area.” I think you have to strain to put this under “Minimize my and others' impact on the environment”
First, having to add the remark “This will reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area” is almost an admission you need an excuse for putting good coordinates under this ethical principle.
Second, placing a cache that’s difficult to find has the same effect on an area as poor coordinates, and challenging hides aren’t unethical.
I very much support urging people to post the best possible coordinates, but it doesn’t fit here.
I would call “hitchers hikers” travel bug hitchhikers or TB hitchhikers. Some people may not know what hitchers hikers are. In fact, I don't know what hitchers are. I don’t support “hide it as well as or better than you found it.” A problem with one of my caches is people keep “helping” me by hiding it in a “better” nearby place. If I had wanted it hidden there I would have hidden it there. In this case moving it makes the cache name meaningless. I would change it to the opposite. My statement would be “Don’t help the owner by hiding the cache in a different place, even if you think it’s better. I’d change your other statement on this subject to read “If you [remove suspect] [add feel sure or are confident] the cache is not in the intended hiding spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner immediately.
So it would read:
Quote
If you feel sure the cache is not in the intended hiding spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner immediately.
Regarding the entry “Endeavor to obtain the best possible coordinates for your cache. If seekers consistently get significantly different readings, recheck the coordinates. This will reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area.” I think you have to strain to put this under “Minimize my and others' impact on the environment”First, having to add the remark “This will reduce unwarranted wear and tear to the area” is almost an admission you need an excuse for putting good coordinates under this ethical principle.
Second, placing a cache that’s difficult to find has the same effect on an area as poor coordinates, and challenging hides aren’t unethical.
I very much support urging people to post the best possible coordinates, but it doesn’t fit here.
This post has been edited by Thot: 12 December 2004 - 08:33 AM
#167
Posted 12 December 2004 - 09:16 AM
The latest draft (due to be posted soon) should address some of your concerns. e.g.:
I would call “hitchers hikers” travel bug hitchhikers or TB hitchhikers. Some people may not know what hitchers hikers are. In fact, I don't know what hitchers are.
The latest version refers to hitchhikers as "traveling items", intended to address hitchhikers of all kinds - travel bugs, geocoins, etc. This still may be ambiguous to the unitiated, but the goal is not to tie the code to any particular listing site, and "Travel Bug" is specific to gc.com. When the code is posted online, ambiguous words or jargon will be linked to a glossary page (Markwell has agreed to host this linked page).
I don’t support “hide it as well as or better than you found it.” A problem with one of my caches is people keep “helping” me by hiding it in a “better” nearby place. If I had wanted it hidden there I would have hidden it there. In this case moving it makes the cache name meaningless.
I’d change your other statement on this subject...So it would read:
This was debated earlier in the thread. The compromise wording in the latest draft is clearer:
Put the cache back where you found it and hide it well. Don’t move a cache to match your reading - if you suspect the cache is not in the intended spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner as soon as possible.
Where would you suggest putting it, if not under the enivironment tenet?
Edit - fix finger fumbles
Thot, on Dec 12 2004, 12:22 PM, said:
I would call “hitchers hikers” travel bug hitchhikers or TB hitchhikers. Some people may not know what hitchers hikers are. In fact, I don't know what hitchers are. The latest version refers to hitchhikers as "traveling items", intended to address hitchhikers of all kinds - travel bugs, geocoins, etc. This still may be ambiguous to the unitiated, but the goal is not to tie the code to any particular listing site, and "Travel Bug" is specific to gc.com. When the code is posted online, ambiguous words or jargon will be linked to a glossary page (Markwell has agreed to host this linked page).
Quote
I don’t support “hide it as well as or better than you found it.” A problem with one of my caches is people keep “helping” me by hiding it in a “better” nearby place. If I had wanted it hidden there I would have hidden it there. In this case moving it makes the cache name meaningless. I’d change your other statement on this subject...So it would read:
Quote
If you feel sure the cache is not in the intended hiding spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner immediately.
This was debated earlier in the thread. The compromise wording in the latest draft is clearer:
Put the cache back where you found it and hide it well. Don’t move a cache to match your reading - if you suspect the cache is not in the intended spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner as soon as possible.
Quote
Regarding the entry “Endeavor to obtain the best possible coordinates for your cache...I think you have to strain to put this under “Minimize my and others' impact on the environment”...I very much support urging people to post the best possible coordinates, but it doesn’t fit here.
Where would you suggest putting it, if not under the enivironment tenet?
Edit - fix finger fumbles
This post has been edited by Kai Team: 12 December 2004 - 09:19 AM
#169
Posted 12 December 2004 - 11:27 AM
Kai Team, on Dec 12 2004, 10:16 AM, said:
The latest version refers to hitchhikers as "traveling items", intended to address hitchhikers of all kinds - travel bugs, geocoins, etc. This still may be ambiguous to the unitiated, but the goal is not to tie the code to any particular listing site, and "Travel Bug" is specific to gc.com. When the code is posted online, ambiguous words or jargon will be linked to a glossary page (Markwell has agreed to host this linked page).
I agree with not tying it to gc.com. But, for clarity, how about changing “traveling items" to “traveling items such as geocoins, gc.com’s travel bugs, etc.”
Quote
Put the cache back where you found it and hide it well. Don’t move a cache to match your reading - if you suspect the cache is not in the intended spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner as soon as possible.
That’s a major improvement, but I worry there's still an implication in "hide it well" that if you don't think it's hidden well enough you should correct this.
Also, something about the 'don't move . . reading' instruction weakens the 'put back where you found it' instruction by linking these two implying that perhaps the 'don't move' is a clarifying restatement of the 'put back' instruction.
I would reword it as follows:
Put the cache back where you found it and hide it well. Don’t “improve” the cache location or move it to match your GPSr reading. If you think the cache is not in the intended spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner as soon as possible.
This post has been edited by Thot: 12 December 2004 - 05:04 PM
#170
Posted 12 December 2004 - 11:43 AM
I like that the tenants have two versions. One that would fit well on the back of a business card, and the longer version.
Where I'd use it is a brief card where one side explains geocaching and the other has the ethics.
Where I'd use it is a brief card where one side explains geocaching and the other has the ethics.
#171
Posted 12 December 2004 - 12:22 PM
I'd suggest modifying:
to read:
"Use caution where children play. Parents are understandably concerned when strangers are near their children."
1) "Paranoid" means concern or fear without good reason. There's a good reason for parents to be concerned when unknown adults are lurking near their kids!
2) We're not ALL odd (most, but not all)!
Quote
Use caution around where children play. Parents are understandably paranoid when odd strangers are around their children.
to read:
"Use caution where children play. Parents are understandably concerned when strangers are near their children."
1) "Paranoid" means concern or fear without good reason. There's a good reason for parents to be concerned when unknown adults are lurking near their kids!
2) We're not ALL odd (most, but not all)!
#172
Posted 12 December 2004 - 12:32 PM
Thot, on Dec 12 2004, 03:27 PM, said:
Quote
Put the cache back where you found it and hide it well. Don’t move a cache to match your reading - if you suspect the cache is not in the intended spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner as soon as possible.
That’s a major improvement, but I worry there's still and implication in "hide it well" that if you don't think it's hidden well enough you should correct this.
I would reword it as follows:
Put the cache back where you found it and hide it well. Don’t “improve” the cache location or move it to match your GPSr reading. If you think the cache is not in the intended spot, hide it the best you can and alert the owner as soon as possible.
Part of the problem may be with the word "hide", which is often used to mean "place a cache". Perhaps it would be better to say:
Put the cache back where you found it and conceal it well. Don’t move a cache - if you believe the cache is not in the intended spot, conceal it the best you can and alert the owner as soon as possible.
#173
Posted 12 December 2004 - 05:07 PM
Kai Team, on Dec 12 2004, 01:32 PM, said:
Part of the problem may be with the word "hide" . . .
That isn't the problem I have with it.
#174
Posted 14 December 2004 - 03:28 PM
I thought we had already settled the minutia about "hiding a cache exactly like you found it".
I can see this debate going on endlessly.
The basic tenets are great and I think the suggestions are fine just as they are. If people want to use them (ie, post them) great - if not, hopefully we can get them to go by the basic tenets.
Any idea when this will be finished? (I'd love to see this unstickied........, hehe)
sd
I can see this debate going on endlessly.
The basic tenets are great and I think the suggestions are fine just as they are. If people want to use them (ie, post them) great - if not, hopefully we can get them to go by the basic tenets.
Any idea when this will be finished? (I'd love to see this unstickied........, hehe)
sd
#175
Posted 14 December 2004 - 03:58 PM
Except for Kai Team's suggestion for rewording the "paranoid" statement, I think it's just about done, unless someone else has something to add. I'd give a couple of more days for last chances.
The basic tenets are pretty much done. The examples could be added to or modified on a case by case basis depending on who posts it. These are just guides or template. As long as a site doesn't try to create policy like saying moving caches are unethical than I don't have a problem with rewording a bullet point. It would probably be better to explain that a site chooses to not list a certain type of cache rather than claim it's evil. I figure it's on par with trying to say guns are evil.
The basic tenets are pretty much done. The examples could be added to or modified on a case by case basis depending on who posts it. These are just guides or template. As long as a site doesn't try to create policy like saying moving caches are unethical than I don't have a problem with rewording a bullet point. It would probably be better to explain that a site chooses to not list a certain type of cache rather than claim it's evil. I figure it's on par with trying to say guns are evil.
#176
Posted 14 December 2004 - 04:19 PM
southdeltan, on Dec 14 2004, 07:28 PM, said:
I thought we had already settled the minutia about "hiding a cache exactly like you found it".
I can see this debate going on endlessly.
I can see this debate going on endlessly.
I agree. I withdraw my suggestion about using "conceal" v. "hide" - it's awkward and didn't address Thot's concern any better than the last rewrite.
CR allowed some time for further comments - given that there have been few comments (other than mine
) since the final draft was posted, I think we're close. I'll shut up now. 
Edit: CR's post slipped in ahead of mine, and made some of what I said moot.
This post has been edited by Kai Team: 14 December 2004 - 04:21 PM
#177
Posted 18 December 2004 - 08:45 AM
This is a great piece of work S&CR.
When it is complete, I would like to run it in Today's Cacher Magazine since not everyone reads the forums.
When it is complete, I would like to run it in Today's Cacher Magazine since not everyone reads the forums.
This post has been edited by Doc-Dean: 18 December 2004 - 08:46 AM
#178
Posted 19 December 2004 - 02:31 PM
CR -
The final draft has been up for a week. Are you ready to post the final version (with the one change on the "paranoid" statement) and close the topic so that we can proceed with distribution?
If so, I'll volunteer to approach the New York Geocaching Organization about posting the code on their site.
The final draft has been up for a week. Are you ready to post the final version (with the one change on the "paranoid" statement) and close the topic so that we can proceed with distribution?
If so, I'll volunteer to approach the New York Geocaching Organization about posting the code on their site.
#179
Posted 20 December 2004 - 06:41 AM
Something has been brought to my attention just this morning. From that, came a thought.
How do we prevent folks from looking only at the bulleted points we've come up with so far and not try to apply the tenets themselves. In other words, getting in a tif over something not in the bullets points and not spelled out directly.
Do we need something like the nineth admendment in the US Consititution?...but in a way works in our sitiuation?Horrible wording, but I hope that gets my idea and my concern across.
How do we prevent folks from looking only at the bulleted points we've come up with so far and not try to apply the tenets themselves. In other words, getting in a tif over something not in the bullets points and not spelled out directly.
Do we need something like the nineth admendment in the US Consititution?
Quote
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Quote
Just because it's not spelled out in the bulleted points doesn't mean the tenets don't apply.
#180
Posted 20 December 2004 - 06:45 AM
I've asked KA to change the wording for that one bullet point.
#181
- Moderatin' the Neo-cachers & helping the How Do I?
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Posted 20 December 2004 - 07:02 AM
How about something like:
changed to
Ick
Too wordy, but it should start the conversation.
Quote
Examples of how to apply the code and further explanation:
(The below is not actually part of the Code)
(The below is not actually part of the Code)
changed to
Quote
Below are examples of how to apply the code with further explanation. These are only examples and not part of the code - not every contingency can be spelled out. If something is not specifically listed in the examples, refer back to the "intent" by looking at the main tenets above.
Ick
Too wordy, but it should start the conversation.
#182
- Everything in Moderation
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Posted 20 December 2004 - 08:50 AM
I've just modified the final draft of the Code to make two wording changes as discussed in the most recent posts. Since the changes are minor, they are highlighted with edit marks rather than appearing as a whole new draft.
Read it at the usual place.
Read it at the usual place.
#185
Posted 22 December 2004 - 09:36 PM
The amount of work that has been put into this project is incredible.
To all those cachers who have given so much for this topic - thank you.
Have a great Christmas and a successful and fulfilling 2005.
This topic has proved to all of us in the geocaching community that we are all passionate about the sport, and, by publishing the code and adhering to it, we all intend to keep the sport growing and have a huge amount of fun doing so.
Well done!
To all those cachers who have given so much for this topic - thank you.
Have a great Christmas and a successful and fulfilling 2005.
This topic has proved to all of us in the geocaching community that we are all passionate about the sport, and, by publishing the code and adhering to it, we all intend to keep the sport growing and have a huge amount of fun doing so.
Well done!
#186
Posted 23 December 2004 - 03:47 PM
As far as I'm concerned, you can color this done!
Next step, distribution and letting folks it's available.
Thanks to everyone who has helped shape The Code, especially Kai Team who really has done more for it than I.
Thanks to Keystone Approver for putting up the updates.
I think this is something that we can be proud of. Hopefully it will positively influence our actions when we need guidance.
Next step, distribution and letting folks it's available.
Thanks to everyone who has helped shape The Code, especially Kai Team who really has done more for it than I.
Thanks to Keystone Approver for putting up the updates.
I think this is something that we can be proud of. Hopefully it will positively influence our actions when we need guidance.
#187
Posted 23 December 2004 - 04:26 PM
I will publish it in the January issue of Today's Cacher where it will be archived for future reference. 
#188
Posted 23 December 2004 - 04:33 PM
Coyote Red and I have been corresponding through PM, and I've agree to develop a new "distribution" thread. This will have a copy of the final code without the edit marks at the top, and will be a way for people to volunteer to help distribute the code (so that we don't have mutliple people pursuing the same distribution channel). I'll PM Keystone Approver to see if he'll pin the distribution thread to the top of this forum.
I'd ask that you be patient and wait for the new thread before posting your distribution plans, so that we get them all in one place! Once I get it set up, I'll post a note and link here.
I'd ask that you be patient and wait for the new thread before posting your distribution plans, so that we get them all in one place! Once I get it set up, I'll post a note and link here.
#189
Posted 24 December 2004 - 07:30 AM
I haven't heard from KA about pinning the new thread (perhaps because KA has a life beyond geocaching 
) but I have posted the final version of the code, and opened the discussion on distribution, in this forum thread, per my conversation with Coyote Red.
The code is of little value if it only lives in the Groundspeak forum, given that many geocachers never read the forums, and some don't list their caches on geocaching.com. Please help get the word out, and post your distribution plans on the thread created for this purpose (above). Please check that thread before you approach anyone about distributing the code, so that we don't make people feel like they're being harassed (that wouldn't be consistent with the code)!
Happy Holidays everyone!
) but I have posted the final version of the code, and opened the discussion on distribution, in this forum thread, per my conversation with Coyote Red.The code is of little value if it only lives in the Groundspeak forum, given that many geocachers never read the forums, and some don't list their caches on geocaching.com. Please help get the word out, and post your distribution plans on the thread created for this purpose (above). Please check that thread before you approach anyone about distributing the code, so that we don't make people feel like they're being harassed (that wouldn't be consistent with the code)!
Happy Holidays everyone!
