The Hornet (Lactodorum as was)

[+uktim]

 

The game is still easily accessible and great fun so why do a few folks seem to want to cause trouible by poking the Americans with a big stick?

 

Trouible? - Sorry couldn't resist that one.

 

The Americans are not affecting our "game", they are affecting our freedom of speech - one of "the" amendments..............

 

If we choose to post into an American based forum with a defined set of guidelines, then we can hardly claim that the enforcement of a clear set of guidelines on selling/trading on those forums is "affecting our freedom of speech" IMO.

[+Lost in Space]

 

The game is still easily accessible and great fun so why do a few folks seem to want to cause trouible by poking the Americans with a big stick?

 

Trouible? - Sorry couldn't resist that one.

 

The Americans are not affecting our "game", they are affecting our freedom of speech - one of "the" amendments..............

 

If we choose to post into an American based forum with a defined set of guidelines, then we can hardly claim that the enforcement of a clear set of guidelines on selling/trading on those forums is "affecting our freedom of speech" IMO.

 

Agree

[NickPick]

Well, I'm not a statistician, but assuming that Groundspeak staff are a representative sample of the US population, then it is a reasonable assumption that 26% of them have passports.

Evidently not.

So, rather than laughing at my evidently pathetic assumptions about a sample of a population, I'd prefer it if you'd take the time to offer me some of your presumably superior knowledge to explain why my simplistic assumption is incorrect.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

Well, I'm not a statistician, but assuming that Groundspeak staff are a representative sample of the US population, then it is a reasonable assumption that 26% of them have passports.

Evidently not.

So, rather than laughing at my evidently pathetic assumptions about a sample of a population, I'd prefer it if you'd take the time to offer me some of your presumably superior knowledge to explain why my simplistic assumption is incorrect.

 

From a devils advocate point of view (and someone who has studied statistics), the US population is made up of people of different social backrounds, urban and rural areas, different occupations and different attitudes to the rest of the world. Groundspeak's employees work in IT and live in the same part of the US and are probably pretty much all middle class. I would say that given these factors, you cannot assume they are a representative sample of US citizens.

[+molfrew-mosstoad]

Unbelievable!!

[markandlynn]

Well, I'm not a statistician, but assuming that Groundspeak staff are a representative sample of the US population, then it is a reasonable assumption that 26% of them have passports.

Evidently not.

So, rather than laughing at my evidently pathetic assumptions about a sample of a population, I'd prefer it if you'd take the time to offer me some of your presumably superior knowledge to explain why my simplistic assumption is incorrect.

 

To end this part of the debate ive sampled a representative crossection of GSP lackey profiles and found 25% of them had logged geo caches outside the USA the 75% left had not logged any geocaches outside the USA.

 

Un ban the hornet although id guess lactodorum still has posting priviledges

 

no matter what else you say an incorrect post of the nature of the hornet's does not deserve a 3 day ban.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

 

Un ban the hornet although id guess lactodorum still has posting priviledges

 

no matter what else you say an incorrect post of the nature of the hornet's does not deserve a 3 day ban.

 

Thats what this all boils down to...

 

If I I went into the South East forums or the North West forums or the Scottish forums and spoke about Durham would they ban me for 3 days (well them buggas probably would but you know what I mean )

 

I will ask a question, I dont know if anyone will answer but I will ask anyway..

 

Do you think the fact that it was Lacto/Hornet and the previous months palavar that had more to do with the severity of the punishment

 

You cannot disagree that even if he did write the wrong thing in the wrong forum, the punishment is severe and without prior warning too

 

M

[+Lost in Space]

Lies, dadgum lies, and statistics,................

 

I doubt The Hornet would want to come back to this..........

[+JeremyR]

no matter what else you say an incorrect post of the nature of the hornet's does not deserve a 3 day ban.

And that's the nub of the matter... At the end of the day, stupidly heavy handed moderating against highly respected community members is a perfect, surefire way to *cough* off alienate a large body of members...

[+uktim]

 

To end this part of the debate ive sampled a representative crossection of GSP lackey profiles and found 25% of them had logged geo caches outside the USA the 75% left had not logged any geocaches outside the USA.

 

 

That doesn't end any sort of debate.

 

It doesn't tell us anything unless you make the dodgy assumption that everyone who goes abroad finds caches whilst away!

[+Lost in Space]

"Dadgum"??? Wasn't what I wrote..........More "US influence"............

[+Simply Paul]

Yes, you can't say [dadgum] here (a word that was fine in 1939's Gone With The Wind) but you can say Utter [um, no you cannot]. Odd, itsn't it?

 

*To shop at French Connection UK

**The modern spelling of the King who demanded the tide halt to prove he couldn't do everything.

 

Sorry about this post. I'm feeling a little Civil Disobediency today...

Edited August 9, 2008 by mtn-man

[Dave from Glanton]

That sounds very unfair.

 

Out of curiosity I had a quick look in the coins forum (not one that I usually visit) and sure enough saw that Peter's posting had been deleted.

 

However (and please excuse me if I've missed something) I did see this thread...

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=200868

...the first posting of which includes the words...

Price for the coins is ONLY $8.15 each with $1 of ever coin going to charity.

 

errr...sorry...don't understand...I thought the 'c' word was verboten?

Edited August 8, 2008 by Dave from Glanton

[+maxkim]

Back on topic... 3 day ban totally OTT. Shame on that mod..... Do the rules on the coin forum allow you to offer several free unregistered coind to the first person who can change / remove such a person???

[+JeremyR]

Just out of curiosity, I'm sure we've had some global mods on this thread who seem to have remained silent on the subject... But has anyone written contact@...?

[+Us 4 and Jess]

Just out of curiosity, I'm sure we've had some global mods on this thread who seem to have remained silent on the subject... But has anyone written contact@...?

 

From what I heard this morning Peter is wording his reply whilst playing a few holes of golf and will reply on his return

 

M

[+studlyone]

no matter what else you say an incorrect post of the nature of the hornet's does not deserve a 3 day ban.

I couldn't agree more.

 

All forums need rules, but jumping on someone with a 3 day ban for a perceived breach of them without even a caution just goes to show you how lucky we are to have such high calibre moderators on the UK forums that adopt a firm but fair approach to these matters.

 

There is a great disparity between what is permissible in each forum on here and 'charity subjects' are a prime example. Why are they permissible on the geocoin forum when they aren't on here?

 

As my siggy says..........

[+Lost in Space]

I'm feeling a little Civil Disobediency today...

 

Today?????

[+purple_pineapple]

 

Sorry about this post. I'm feeling a little Civil Disobediency today...

 

I don't know - modern lassies have the strangest names....

 

And FWIW - I agree that a 3 day ban is way out of proportion - is such an action not an abuse of their privileges, considering that the post (which I haven't seen) appears to fall WITHIN the guidelines, namely coins can be exchanged for other stuff....

[+Lost in Space]

OK. We've all vented our spleen.

 

Is this the 10 minute or 20 minute argument?

[+kennamatic]

Not to stir up a Hornets nest, (Sorry, couldn't resist) but could the impetus behind the ban not be to do with who started the thread, nor about the swapping of items with charitable status, but because it was a calender which we know TPTB are already touchy about.

 

Just my 2p.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

Not to stir up a Hornets nest, (Sorry, couldn't resist) but could the impetus behind the ban not be to do with who started the thread, nor about the swapping of items with charitable status, but because it was a calender which we know TPTB are already touchy about.

 

Just my 2p.

 

I apologise I thought you meant this thread not the thread in the coin forums, I have deleted my comment, but it was not nasty

 

But I will say the calendars I was trying to swap/sell were the ones I had permission from GSP to advertise/sell with their logos all over them

 

M

Edited August 8, 2008 by Us 4 and Jess

[+minstrelcat]

no matter what else you say an incorrect post of the nature of the hornet's does not deserve a 3 day ban.

 

I agree - what do the mods of that forum have against writing a polite note saying "you have posted something that you shouldn't have, please don't do it again"? Maybe that would be too much effort.

 

Lisa

[+purple_pineapple]

no matter what else you say an incorrect post of the nature of the hornet's does not deserve a 3 day ban.

 

I agree - what do the mods of that forum have against writing a polite note saying "you have posted something that you shouldn't have, please don't do it again"? Maybe that would be too much effort.

 

Lisa

 

you might have hit the nail on the head Lisa - I wonder if they have one large red button at the top of their screens, labelled "delete and ban" so that they only have to press one button in response to perceived naughty posts!

 

or maybe its a computer, using some kind of word scanning program, and they have inadvertanly put the word "calender" in its hotlist of suspect words...!

[+Us 4 and Jess]

 

or maybe its a computer, using some kind of word scanning program, and they have inadvertanly put the word "calender" in its hotlist of suspect words...!

 

Thats tooooooo funny

 

Or is it

[+Eartha]

Hello,

I am one of the geocoin forum moderators. I am the one who suspended the posting rights of The Hornet. The Hornet was not banned. There is a big difference between being suspended for a short time, and being banned.

If you are banned, you do not come back.

 

The geocoin forums have their own set of posting guidelines, along with the general forum posting guidelines, and the terms of use for this website, and they are more stringent, and we moderate these forums daily, if not hourly. Selling items that are not trackable on geocaching.com, without the express permission from Groundspeak is not allowed in the geocoin forums. I was not aware that The Hornet was also a former volunteer under another account name, as I do not spend a lot of forum time outside of the Geocoin, Travel Bug and CITO forums. But, now that I know this fact, I feel more strongly that The Hornet should have been aware of the guidelines, or should have known enough to read them first, and get permission for the post. Having permission to make the calendars and getting permission to post them, in a forum where it is not allowed, do not go hand in hand. The permission to produce them does not automatically imply the permission to post them in the geocoin forums. Having a passport has nothing to do whatsoever with what can or cannot be posted in the geocoin forums.

A three day suspension is the normal time given for a first offense and this was the first offense in this case in the geocoins forums. I follow the forum guidelines, As a volunteer, I make sure they are being followed, and I stand by my decision. Especially in a situation where the poster should have known to ask first.

I'm sorry if the calendar sales did not go as planned, but if you search the coin forums, you will find that a lot of geocoin sales do not go as planned, either. That is why people have "pre-sales" to gauge interest, before they make their geocoins. Producing anything, hoping it will sell, is a risk you take. That doesn't make it OK to break the rules if it doesn't sell. All that was required was permission from Groundspeak to post it, before posting it.

If The Hornet has a problem with my decision, they can take it up Groundspeak, by sending an email to: "appeals at geocaching dot com".

 

Eartha

Volunteer Groundspeak Forum Moderator

[+minstrelcat]

A three day suspension is the normal time given for a first offense.

 

I thought a warning was given for a first offence? Or is the geocoin forum a special case?

 

Lisa

[+Us 4 and Jess]

Please could you explain something to me

 

In the Geocoin forum coins are swapped for coins and coins are swapped for cash, I said I had calendars to sell I agree with that but I also said I was willing to swap them for dog coins.

 

Are all coins in the forum only ever swapped for for other coins or cash?

 

Would no one ever say "oh I have a lovley blah blah and I am willing to swap it for whatever you offer me"

 

So I am not allowed to say I have a calendar would you like to swap that for your dog coin?

 

It makes a bit of a mocckery of the huge "secret santa" thing you do each year

 

Mandy

[+perth pathfinders]

Hello,

I am one of the geocoin forum moderators. I am the one who suspended the posting rights of The Hornet. The Hornet was not banned. There is a big difference between being suspended for a short time, and being banned.

If you are banned, you do not come back.

 

The geocoin forums have their own set of posting guidelines, along with the general forum posting guidelines, and the terms of use for this website, and they are more stringent, and we moderate these forums daily, if not hourly. Selling items that are not trackable on geocaching.com, without the express permission from Groundspeak is not allowed in the geocoin forums. I was not aware that The Hornet was also a former volunteer under another account name, as I do not spend a lot of forum time outside of the Geocoin, Travel Bug and CITO forums. But, now that I know this fact, I feel more strongly that The Hornet should have been aware of the guidelines, or should have known enough to read them first, and get permission for the post. Having permission to make the calendars and getting permission to post them, in a forum where it is not allowed, do not go hand in hand. The permission to produce them does not automatically imply the permission to post them in the geocoin forums. Having a passport has nothing to do whatsoever with what can or cannot be posted in the geocoin forums.

A three day suspension is the normal time given for a first offense and this was the first offense in this case in the geocoins forums. I follow the forum guidelines, As a volunteer, I make sure they are being followed, and I stand by my decision. Especially in a situation where the poster should have known to ask first.

I'm sorry if the calendar sales did not go as planned, but if you search the coin forums, you will find that a lot of geocoin sales do not go as planned, either. That is why people have "pre-sales" to gauge interest, before they make their geocoins. Producing anything, hoping it will sell, is a risk you take. That doesn't make it OK to break the rules if it doesn't sell. All that was required was permission from Groundspeak to post it, before posting it.

If The Hornet has a problem with my decision, they can take it up Groundspeak, by sending an email to: "appeals at geocaching dot com".

 

Eartha

Volunteer Groundspeak Forum Moderator

 

 

I agree - what do the mods of that forum have against writing a polite note saying "you have posted something that you shouldn't have, please don't do it again"? Maybe that would be too much effort.

 

Lisa

 

Think Lisa has summed it up nicely.

 

[+JeremyR]

A 3-day 'suspension' is a ridiculously heavy-handed reaction to a first infraction. Also, the forum guidelines do not make mention of suspension, only editing or deletion after attempting to resolve the issue with the OP.

[+Lost in Space]

Having a passport has nothing to do whatsoever with what can or cannot be posted in the geocoin forums.

 

No, but it does have significance when the people that monitor/adjudicate these forums show no regard for

"National quirks".

 

We have similar people that work in "Customer Services" departments whose only job is to read from a pre-prepared script.

[+Stuey]

Please could you explain something to me

 

Are all coins in the forum only ever swapped for for other coins or cash?

 

I would expect that to be the case in most instances, yes.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

To add insult to injury the following has been copied and pasted from the GAGB forums

 

I have also been banned as Lactodorum for asking people to use an alternative contact

 

As Peter cannot reply in these forums he has added a reply to Eartha's post which can be read in the GAGB forums

 

M

Edited August 8, 2008 by Us 4 and Jess

[+JeremyR]

Direct link to the thread on the GAGB forum:

 

http://www.gagb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1213

Edited August 8, 2008 by JeremyR

[+Us 4 and Jess]

Direct link to the thread on the GAGB forum:

 

http://www.gagb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1213

 

Thank you

 

Sorry I'm a numpty

 

M

[markandlynn]

. There is a big difference between being suspended for a short time, and being banned.

If you are banned, you do not come back.

 

 

Banned for three days or suspended for three days means the same in the United Kingdom.

 

same language two different uses

[+studlyone]

same language two different uses

Yep apparantly there is a thing called US English (well according to Microsoft anyway and its an excuse for not being able to spell Queens English)

[+fat bloke]

Has the Hornet nothing to say about this

 

 

[Stray Cacher]

Yes he has....

 

 

Hornet...As I'm not allowed to answer on the GSP forums I would like to make a couple of points.

 

Quote:

Hello,

I am one of the geocoin forum moderators. I am the one who suspended the posting rights of The Hornet. The Hornet was not banned. There is a big difference between being suspended for a short time, and being banned.

If you are banned, you do not come back.

 

I think this may be another instance of speaking similar, but different languages. That may be the meaning in American, but in the English I speak a Ban can have both meanings. My "Ban" was for three days, whatever the word used.

 

Quote:

I feel more strongly that The Hornet should have been aware of the guidelines

 

Quote:

A three day suspension is the normal time given for a first offense and this was the first offense in this case in the geocoins forums.

 

As you say, I was a forum moderator and I do know the guidelines that moderators follow. I have a copy. The relevant section as I see it says

 

Quote:

"If informal warnings don't get the message across, issue a 10% warning on the member's warn meter. Copy the warning text into a PM with the subject "Groundspeak Forums Warning" so that the member receives a copy. ALL warnings should link to the post or thread in question, explain which forum guideline(s) were violated, and lay out the future consequences.

 

For more serious violations, or if a simple warning doesn't work, read on!

"

 

and

 

Quote:

When to temporarily disable the posting ability

 

• Repeated violation of the forum guidelines.

 

• First Offense: 3 Days

 

If those guidelines had been followed I would have been warned for my misdemeanour. I received no warning, I was banned (suspended) for 3 days right off. If you had warned me, as is your right as forum moderator, I might have been "miffed" but I would have accepted it. It was the immediate ban/suspension that annoyed me.

 

As for using the appeals process, yes that is an option. However I know how that works. We'll see.

 

Sorry it's a bit jumbled... its the way things work here.... SC

[+Matrix]

name='uktim' date='Aug 8 2008, 02:23 PM' post='3590426'

 

I think that the service we get is good value for money.

 

 

I think your in a rapidly decreasing majority

 

M

 

I for one will NOT be renewing my premium membership and I know that wont have much of an effect but I have had enough of the heavy handedness that seems to becoming more and more prevelant.

 

I only run a few PQ's so I wont miss out on much anyway.

 

[+Simply Paul]

I wonder, Eartha, if it's possible to reverse a decision which seems to go contra to GC guidelines?

 

I refer to; "When to temporarily disable the posting ability • Repeated violation of the forum guidelines." Since this was The Hornet's first offence, you tell us, your guidelines state he should have been dealt with this way: "If informal warnings don't get the message across, issue a 10% warning on the member's warn meter. Copy the warning text into a PM with the subject "Groundspeak Forums Warning" so that the member receives a copy. ALL warnings should link to the post or thread in question, explain which forum guideline(s) were violated, and lay out the future consequences."

 

Having made a mistake, the polite thing to do would be to reinstate The Hornet's posting privileges, apologise for the overreaction, but reiterate the coin forum's rules (I suspect The Hornet's got that particular message by now) -and do the former two points with a little public show of humility to show you're a human capable of mistakes, but smart enough to know when to acknowledge them, and try to deal with the bad feeling they appear to have generated. On the other hand, do nothing, say nothing, and let others draw their own conclusions about what sort of a forum moderator you are.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

name='uktim' date='Aug 8 2008, 02:23 PM' post='3590426'

 

I think that the service we get is good value for money.

 

 

I think your in a rapidly decreasing majority

 

M

 

I for one will NOT be renewing my premium membership and I know that wont have much of an effect but I have had enough of the heavy handedness that seems to becoming more and more prevelant.

 

I only run a few PQ's so I wont miss out on much anyway.

 

 

Thats the only way for us to stand up for ourselves, literally by hitting them where it hurts

 

I hope all the folks who have said they aren't going to renew their memberships really do stick by what they have said.

 

Its no hardship for me to print off caches, its not as if my printer doesn't get hammered anyway

 

M

Edited August 8, 2008 by Us 4 and Jess

[+Eartha]

My point was to let you all know that the geocoin forums operate under a different set of guidelines, while at the same time, forum posters must follow the general forum posting guidelines, and the terms of use of this site. It was not to discuss how this will be handled from here on out, or in the past.

Where people live, what country they are in, will not change those forum guidelines. They are there for all to abide by, regardless of race, creed, religion, sexual orientation, handicap, familial status, or national origin. Calendars are not geocoin related, and so they do not belong in the geocoin forums, period. I stand by my decision. I have posted what the next step is. It can be appealed, but the thread cannot be posted in a forum that was not built for calendar sales, or the sales of anything not trackable on geocaching.com. Even if it was a calendar geocoin, if it's not trackable, the thread is not allowed.

It's my job to keep the forums I moderate running in accordance with the guidelines. As I said, if The Hornet wants to appeal my decision, he may contact Groundspeak.

[+JeremyR]

It's not the matter of whether or not the post was valid that's at dispute here, nor the silly bickering that occurred earlier in the thread regarding US attitudes.

 

The offense taken by the majority of posters in this thread is in regards to the heavy-handedness of the punishment when a quiet word by PM would have been more than sufficient. You must understand that by banning/suspending (tom-A-toe, tom-AR-toe) a highly respected and senior* member of the UK geocaching community, especially when it's evident that the approach taken is not inline with Groundspeak's own moderation policies, you've naturally got an awful lot of people's backs up.

 

(*In the nicest possible sense of the word, of course! )

 

(edited for spelling, not content )

Edited August 8, 2008 by JeremyR

[+minstrelcat]

My point was to let you all know that the geocoin forums operate under a different set of guidelines

 

Well, I have been using the forum since before geocoins came about and was never aware that the geocoin section had different guidelines to the rest of the forum. Maybe this needs to be more widely publicised?

 

I'm really glad I never felt any need to venture over to the geocoin area and risk tripping over guidelines I didn't know anything about!

 

Lisa

 

Edited to add: now I know that there are geocoin section-specific guidelines, I have spotted link to them (which is in very small text and easy to miss). However there is no mention there of the suspension without warning policy in force in this section which is different to the rest of the forum.

Edited August 8, 2008 by minstrelcat

[+Lost in Space]

....It's my job to keep the forums I moderate running in accordance with the guidelines...

 

You don't work for Sky or Virgin media Customer Services do you?

 

"Unplug from the wall outlet, wait two minutes.............."

[+Stuey]

....It's my job to keep the forums I moderate running in accordance with the guidelines...

 

You don't work for Sky or Virgin media Customer Services do you?

 

"Unplug from the wall outlet, wait two minutes.............."

 

That always fixed my Sky box problems

[+Eclectic Penguin]

I'm still very annoyed about the way this whole thing has been handled - and I think it's been handled very badly by the guys on top. But take a step back and take some deep breaths...

 

stepping back and reading the whole thread from the top, Hornet did break the published rules of the Geocoin forum, even if it was what most people (including myself) would consider a minor infringement. It should have been dealt with a slap on the wrist rather than a kipper whack over the face, but it's done.

 

Groundspeak have stated their position about how these forums are moderated/censored and have done so for quite some time. At times, I don't like it and I'm sure many others don't either - but the fact is, its their commercially run web-site - and has been from the beginning.

 

The infringement wasn't made on the UK forum - which is where the main bone of contention has been in the past few months - it was on another forum with its own rules and regulations. Apart from one time when I was thinking of publishing my own Geocoin, I've never even looked at the Geocoin forum let alone looked into its rules and can imagine a faux pas could be quite easily be made.

 

While I don't want to defend GS' position as I disagree with how some of this has been handled, we've all also ticked the little box that says that we'll agree by their terms and conditions (at least I assume so).

 

Some have decided to withdraw premium membership as a result of this (and probably a snowball of other things over the last few months) - and of course you're perfectly entitled to do so as it's a free world. All I suggest is try to see things in context. There's more to Geocaching than how the guys at the top occasionally appear to stomp about asserting authority.

 

There's more I would like to add to this grumbling ramble - but if I did, I may get suspended for 3 days so I'll leave it at that.

 

We have a new cache reviewer and forum moderator couple join us this week - I'm looking on the positive side for now - I hope they'll be able to work with us as cachers and with Groundspeak to iron out cultural, personal and ... well any difficulties that are currently being observed in the UK Geocaching community.

[+Andy33]

Having read the “Special Guidelines” of the coin forum I can see no reason for a ban without a warning. To me this is just heavy handed and over the top.

 

The mod that took the action states their occupation as Diplomat………..I don’t think so

[+Scoff Cruddle]

My point was to let you all know that the geocoin forums operate under a different set of guidelines, while at the same time, forum posters must follow the general forum posting guidelines, and the terms of use of this site. It was not to discuss how this will be handled from here on out, or in the past.

Where people live, what country they are in, will not change those forum guidelines. They are there for all to abide by, regardless of race, creed, religion, sexual orientation, handicap, familial status, or national origin. Calendars are not geocoin related, and so they do not belong in the geocoin forums, period. I stand by my decision. I have posted what the next step is. It can be appealed, but the thread cannot be posted in a forum that was not built for calendar sales, or the sales of anything not trackable on geocaching.com. Even if it was a calendar geocoin, if it's not trackable, the thread is not allowed.

It's my job to keep the forums I moderate running in accordance with the guidelines. As I said, if The Hornet wants to appeal my decision, he may contact Groundspeak.

 

 

This isn't directed at you but is a general comment related to part of your response and I'm not wanting to open up old arguments here, but if different forums can apparently have diffrerent rules, why was there ever a problem on the UK forum about the whole charity promotion issue a few months back. We could have our own rules that only apply here, and could have avoided a whole load of upset.