I Wonder What Was So Bad About The Name

[+unclerojelio]

of this cache that the admins saw fit to change it?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ec-1f4d52f8c2e3

 

Edited December 15, 2004 by unclerojelio

[+tirediron]

Why?

[lowracer]

Thread lockdown in 3... 2.... 1...

[+Allen_L]

I will not mention the old name, but will say the fact google keeps cached version of pages is a very powerfull tool.

 

Also the old name didn't seem that offensive to me.

[+drat19]

Well, it's certainly interesting to see another regional controversy brewing around here that's NOT related to Nashville!

 

As an innocent bystander forum reader, I'm curious what's the "back story" on this.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

[+drat19]

  AllenLacy said:

I will not mention the old name, but will say the fact google keeps cached version of pages is a very powerfull tool.

 

Also the old name didn't seem that offensive to me.

Good idea!

 

I agree, what's wrong with the old name? I've lived in Texas, that name is no biggie in my book.

 

-Dave R.

[MMACH 5]

I don't think the cached version name is what got it archived. I think the name was changed to something else that refered to something unmentionable rather than offensive.

[+Jeremy]

I wish someone would put a comprehensive reason for why this protest is happening. Kind of like standing around an intersection with blank protest signs.

[+Jamie Z]

I sure like,

 

  Quote

Personally we have not had problems with approvers. Granted we are pretty new and have just a handful of hides/finds. If some of our Texas caching peers are not having fun it takes away from the fun of the site and events. I guess we can find somewhere else to spend our $2.50 a month. Open the doors my brothers and sisters we are coming in(whether you want us or not!).

 

Nothing like jumping on the old bandwagon. Looks like a mob to me rather than any clearly thought-out discontent.

 

Jamie

[+AuntieWeasel]

Good heavens! Somebody in Texas had a problem with that? It is just the colloquial name for the Texas Horned Lizard. I wonder if the approver for that area isn't a local...

[Mr. TSP]

I did the google thing to find out the previous name. If I got it right, then how is it any different from this one? Play on Words

[+briansnat]

I lodge a protost too! Not sure about what yet, but when I find out, watch it!

[+Jeremy]

I will say that abusing features of the web site that affects people's finds and whatnot is a lousy way of going about things. Using this site for advertising is also unacceptable.

 

Going to the bathroom in your own living area is not a good way to make friends or launch a protest, IMO.

[lowracer]

The discontent in Texas stems largely and most recently from the incident with 9key and the selector, but many Texans are unhappy with the performance of Prime Approver and since he was not elected and we have no way to recall him and we have no 9key anymore to appeal to, the discontent is boiling over. The vote for Secession is running about 70%/30% in favor, and we are the fastest growing state on terracaching.com, an alternate site that lets us choose our own approvers.

 

http://www.texasgeocaching.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2219

[MMACH 5]

  Jeremy said:

I wish someone would put a comprehensive reason for why this protest is happening. Kind of like standing around an intersection with blank protest signs.

I thought that criticizing TPTB got you banned, locked out or at least the thread would be shut down. Mentioning another site seems to have the same effect.

[+Jeremy]

  lowracer said:

The discontent in Texas stems largely and most recently from the incident with 9key and the selector, but many Texans...

Let's start with that. As it has been noted many times, we had planned on adding attributes to cache pages for a very long time. 9Key's issue was that he was not getting proper credit and Rothstafari had a conversation letting him know that we'd be happy to apply credit to him and the others who created selector style html pages. At that time he said "too little too late" but most recently he changed his mind and we applied credit to the page I am using for testing. Since that feature is still in development it is just a test page, but we added the text there anyway. So on that note I believe we were being very accomodating. But hey, might as well stick to one side of the story to get some mob action, eh?

 

  Quote

but many Texans are unhappy with the performance of Prime Approver and since he was not elected and we have no way to recall him and we have no 9key anymore to appeal to, the discontent is boiling over. The vote for Secession is running about 70%/30% in favor, and we are the fastest growing state on terracaching.com, an alternate site that lets us choose our own approvers.

 

Well 9Key resigned, so "Bring him back" is a silly protest. We didn't fire him. Also, if there are specific issues about a cache listing people normally post them there. I don't know how you build a "vote for secession" based on faulty information and mob logic, but it would start with more even handed conversations on what the true issues are.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Jeremy

[+Mopar]

  lowracer said:

The discontent in Texas stems largely and most recently from the incident with 9key and the selector,

Why would THAT cause an issue? Especially an issue that causes someone to destroy the history of a cache for everyone who originally found it?

It's not like any of that was an original idea. Looks like he just improved on an idea that already existed before he even started caching. Even used many of that guy's icons. Or is that the problem? You guys got upset that it wasn't a texan's idea after all? [confused]

[+Jeremy]

  lowracer said:

we have no 9key anymore to appeal to, the discontent is boiling over.

We have someone at Groundspeak whose sole responsibility is to work with the reviewers and the community to make sure that we do our best to address issues with cache listings. If this is not happening I need to know about it, and not childish name calling. You come off looking like the very names you call others.

 

"you" in the proverbial sense. I'm not addressing lowracer directly.

 

(edit: qualification)

Edited December 15, 2004 by Jeremy

[+Mr.Benchmark]

  Jeremy said:

I wish someone would put a comprehensive reason for why this protest is happening. Kind of like standing around an intersection with blank protest signs.

1. The treatment of 9key over "the selector". The cache attributes should have been a feature on this site for a long time, and is a fairly obvious thing. The fact is, though, it wasn't, and 9key did a lot to promote the game and this site, and he implemented a useful feature that has taken y'all forever and a day to do for yourselves. The treatment of him over this struck many of us as arrogant and high handed. If someone who promotes gc.com at local tradeshows, at their own expense, gets that kind of treatment, where do the rest of us rate?

2. 9key's resignation as an approver has left us with a single local approver who has not been well received by a number of folks. Aside from some decisions that seemed a bit arbitrary, his lack of people skills have left many feeling angry. This is a big source of friction.

3. Some feel the pace of change at this site is very slow.

4. Some feel the value system implicitly promoted here, which rewards quantity over quality leaves a lot to be desired.

[lowracer]

9key was the best approver we had, I think maybe the best that GC.com had. When he resigned, for whatever reason, that spark lighted a fire. Now we're stuck with PA. As you can see from reading the posts, there are many in Texas who are not happy with his performance, with his judgement. We did not elect him and we see no way to recall him. The selector issue was the spark, whether it was a legitimate spark or not, there is a fire raging. Many unhappy customers in Texas.

 

Edit: And I should point out that I have nothing personal against PA, no disrespect for the man. I've never called names, just speaking about the performance, not the person.

Edited December 15, 2004 by lowracer

[+Jeremy]

  Mr.Benchmark said:

  Jeremy said:

I wish someone would put a comprehensive reason for why this protest is happening. Kind of like standing around an intersection with blank protest signs.

1. The treatment of 9key over "the selector". The cache attributes should have been a feature on this site for a long time, and is a fairly obvious thing. The fact is, though, it wasn't, and 9key did a lot to promote the game and this site, and he implemented a useful feature that has taken y'all forever and a day to do for yourselves. The treatment of him over this struck many of us as arrogant and high handed. If someone who promotes gc.com at local tradeshows, at their own expense, gets that kind of treatment, where do the rest of us rate?

2. 9key's resignation as an approver has left us with a single local approver who has not been well received by a number of folks. Aside from some decisions that seemed a bit arbitrary, his lack of people skills have left many feeling angry. This is a big source of friction.

3. Some feel the pace of change at this site is very slow.

4. Some feel the value system implicitly promoted here, which rewards quantity over quality leaves a lot to be desired.

I addressed the 1st and 2nd point. The 3rd and 4th just seem to be filler items.

[+Mrs. Captain Picard]

Jeremy, my protest relates to the fact that postings in Texas seem to be rejected for purely arbitrary reasons! I've organized a number of fun events ranging from camping to juggling and the usual eating. All of a sudden, it appears that the only acceptable event that can be held in Texas is one that originates in a restaurant. And then we were told we needed a two week advance notice for events. HUH?

 

The event I was organizing that got disapproved was a bike ride where we would teach about the routing function in GPSs and practice it on a bike ride. The Events Calendar that weekend was full of similar events, some involving geocaching, some not, the whole range. But MINE was rejected because our state's approver said a bike ride was not an event. Just because he FELT LIKE a bike ride was not an event. There just was no valid reason I shouldn't have been able to hold an event centered around bicycles. I offered changes to my event to fit whatever criteria he had, but he had decided my event was going to be disapproved and that was that. No bicycling event.

 

That just tells me that there is something getting in the way of the promotion of geocaching as a sport. Here, we're trying to build our community, and we can't get through our very own GC.com approver to do it!

 

I Want To Have A Biking Event!!!!!!!!! Why can't I?

[+Jeremy]

  lowracer said:

The selector issue was the spark, whether it was a legitimate spark or not, there is a fire raging. Many unhappy customers in Texas.

I don't think so. If there was an issue with a reviewer I would expect there to be some posts to this forum since this is normally where they go. Seems to me there's more of a mob mentality going on here and most people are just jumping on the bandwagon.

 

The fact that there are so many "Bring 9Key back" messages seems to me that people are fired up but aren't quite sure why.

[+Jeremy]

  Mrs. Captain Picard said:

Jeremy, my protest relates to the fact that postings in Texas seem to be rejected for purely arbitrary reasons!

Did you contact anyone at the geocaching.com web site about this? Did you post here to discuss particular issues as to why your cache wasn't listed?

[+Renegade Knight]

The original title was "<inappropriate language removed> Prime Approver!!!!!!!"

 

I don't know what it means and after a google on it, I still don't know anything more than if you walk in a restaraunt and say it odds are you won't get served.

 

Google has it's limitations.

Edited December 15, 2004 by hydee

[+briansnat]

  Quote

All of a sudden, it appears that the only acceptable event that can be held in Texas is one that originates in a restaurant

 

This is an issue everywhere. Geocachers gathering to socialize and have fun together can't be an event unless it happens in a restaurant or picnic area.

[Keystone]

I find the comments about Prime Approver to be exquisitely ironic, as he was hand-picked by 9Key to assist with cache reviews in Texas. Since 9Key announced Prime Approver's addition to the volunteer group on January 28th, P.A. has become an extremely valuable contributor to our team. His mastery of Groundspeak's cache listing guidelines is demonstrated regularly through his helpful advice in our reviewer forum when other reviewers post cache submissions for discussion. Perhaps most importantly, Prime Approver developed a toolset to supplement the site's cache review functions that has dramatically increased our efficiency. The time it takes me to review and comment on a typical geocache with "issues" has been cut in half thanks to this tool. His behind the scenes work has thus helped geocaching worldwide. It is a pleasure to work with him.

[+BadAndy]

dunno what <removed> means, but Besa Mi means "kiss my"

 

I have no idea why that would be changed by an approver

 

edit speiling

Edited December 15, 2004 by hydee

[+Mr.Benchmark]

  Jeremy said:

The 3rd and 4th just seem to be filler items.

Not as far as I'm concerned. They are the chief source of my frustrations with the site, especially point #4.

 

Telling your customers that they are silly for being unhappy doesn't tend to make them less unhappy. Sorry.

[+Renegade Knight]

  BadAndy said:

dunno what <removed> means, but Besa Mi means "kiss my"

 

I have no idea why that would be changed by and approver 

Well... I think I know where the title was going now.

Edited December 15, 2004 by hydee

[+sept1c_tank]

*sigh*

[+Jeremy]

  Mr.Benchmark said:

Telling your customers that they are silly for being unhappy doesn't tend to make them less unhappy. Sorry.

Um. I don't think I said my customers are silly. I'm saying you added #3 and #4 but really you're part of it over #1 and #2. But two points really needed more to fill out the protest. Whether your other points are valid or not is not the point.

[+Moose Mob]

Let's just say that if the name of the cache was in English, it would be obvious that it doesn't comply with the "Family Friendly" aspect of this game.

[+Mrs. Captain Picard]

Jeremy, yes, I sent an email to the "contact us" link on the website and never got a reply. But no, I didn't post to the forums. First, because I'm not a regular participant here, but second, because at the time I didn't want to get "black balled" in Texas by publicly calling our approver out. I want to get my caches approved! I hope other Texans will post their bad experiences backed by fact instead of emotion so if a real problem is identified, it can be corrected. I'm sure that's what you want, too. I can't tell you how many hours of adventure GC.com has given me, and I want to be able to move our sport FORWARD in Texas rather than backward! But there's something in the way down here......

[+BadAndy]

After further review....

 

From what I've surmised as to the cache name that was changed and archived, I'd say that the right thing was done.

 

There is a proper way to gripe. That wouldn't include calling a volunteer foul names on a cache title, in any language.

 

edit Or asking him to perform a foul act.

Edited December 15, 2004 by BadAndy

[+WAAS-up]

  Jeremy said:

... The 3rd and 4th just seem to be filler items.

OMG, I can't believe you said that! Either the disconnect is much larger than I feared or I'm reading that totally wrong. So the quality of the game it's facilitating tools are filler items?

[+Jeremy]

  Mrs. Captain Picard said:

Jeremy, yes, I sent an email to the "contact us" link on the website and never got a reply.

Did you at least get an automated reply? I can have this checked if you have a tracking number. We're pretty prompt with emails.

 

If you have a particular issue about a cache not being approved, a good way to go about sparking debate is to create a topic that indicates your concept and ask for results. You don't even need to address your exact listing to do this. Like "I plan to organized an xx event and I'd like to get your opinion on this."

 

Normally having a nonconfrontational tone will set a better tone for a thread. and starting off emotionally will get an emotional reaction, and it probably won't be the best one.

[+Jeremy]

  WAAS-up said:

  Jeremy said:

... The 3rd and 4th just seem to be filler items.

OMG, I can't believe you said that! Either the disconnect is much larger than I feared or I'm reading that totally wrong. So the quality of the game it's facilitating tools are filler items?

You know I qualified my response a few posts up if you'd care to read before posting.

[+Renegade Knight]

  BadAndy said:

After further review....

 

From what I've surmised as to the cache name that was changed and archived, I'd say that the right thing was done....

True. The name change would be by design to cause the archival and controversy.

 

There are things going on in Texas, and there are reasons behind them. Texas has had many of the major cachers move on from this site and plans are in the works for another listing site though I have no details on that.

 

The issues are bigger than the one cache, and bigger than The Selector but everything has the last straw and maybe in this case The Selector was it for them.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

  Keystone Approver said:

I find the comments about Prime Approver to be exquisitely ironic, as he was hand-picked by 9Key to assist with cache reviews in Texas.

It is somewhat surprising, I'll grant you that. In many ways, PA would seem to be the ideal approver. The caches he's hidden by his alter-ego have all been excellent, amongst some of my favorites. His knowledge of geocaching is tremendous, and he is clearly very intelligent, and quite skilled at software development. So what's the problem?

 

I can't speak for everyone, but the one issue I've had with him, he came across as accusing me of trying to pull some kind of stunt with a problematical cache listing. I was kind of surprised by this - I really wasn't trying to pull anything, and while I disagreed with him, I changed the listing and moved on. But he did come off as kind of rude, at least to me. So this is at least partially about human relations.

[+Mrs. Captain Picard]

Jeremy, I'll check and see if I got an automated reply. Thanks for your interest.

 

In Austin, we communicate using a YahooGroup. I just posted a note asking people to post here with factual information on instances where LEGITIMATE caches or events were rejected. I asked them to give the facts and leave the high emotion out of it. Hopefully, if there's truly a problem, you'll see it and be willing to act to resolve it.

 

Julie

[lowracer]

Out of respect for PA, is it appropriate to air the specifics of denied caches here or should we email them offline to the contact address?

Edited December 15, 2004 by lowracer

[+Doggiewoggie]

Nevermind....

Edited December 15, 2004 by prettynwitty

[+Mrs. Captain Picard]

Jeremy just told me that the forums were the venue for protesting denied caches, so I suggest we post here rather than direct communication. I don't have anything against our approver personally. I've never met him. And if we stick to the facts, I think its more productive than many other things that have been happening.

[+cachew nut]

Just my two cents as an observer to this. Saying that something can't be the case because there are no complaints in the forums about the person is inaccurate.

 

Sometimes if you are voicing your concern or asking a question, you are immediately silenced or banned, and your postings are censored. By the time your ban is lifted, you dare not bring it up again lest you get censored some more.

 

Maybe you were unaware that this is happening, so if you weren't, now you know.

[+Mopar]

  lowracer said:

9key was the best approver we had, I think maybe the best that GC.com had.  When he resigned, for whatever reason, that spark lighted a fire.  Now we're stuck with PA.  As you can see from reading the posts, there are many in Texas who are not happy with his performance, with his judgement.  We did not elect him and we see no way to recall him.  The selector issue was the spark, whether it was a legitimate spark or not, there is a fire raging.  Many unhappy customers in Texas.

 

Edit: And I should point out that I have nothing personal against PA, no disrespect for the man.  I've never called names, just speaking about the performance, not the person.

It doesn't really seem like PA is your problem either. This thread of yours looks like it has all the same complaints, except they predate the join date of PA's account by at least 6 months. Who was the bad guy back then?

  lowracer said:

I find no rules for event caches.  Yet I just had one (GCGFMB) get the thumbs-down because it was not consistent with the "intent" of the event cache type.

<SNIP>

I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last.

 

-lowracer

Edited December 15, 2004 by Mopar

[lowracer]

GCK18F - t00bin' with the n00bies on the Guadal00pe

 

"Event cache to bring all the n00bies and old-timers alike for some floating down the Guadalupe river in t00bs and rafts.

 

Meet at the Guadalupe Canoe Livery (link), where we'll rent some t00bs and rafts. They'll shuttle us upriver to the Guadal00pe State park where we'll put in and embark on a 4-to-5-hour raft and t00b trip down the scenic and remote Upper Guadal00pe River, with the option to pick up a geocache or two along the way. On the way we'll discuss the environmental ramifications of Geocaching in the sensitive Upper Guadalupe River Ecosystem, and maybe toss a nerf football or two from t00b to t00b, and maybe toss a cold beverage from n00b to n00b. Halfway down the river we'll stop on the shore and have a picnic lunch. The fishing's fine and on the way you might see a fancy lure or two stuck in the trees along the bank. If you can retrieve them, they belong to bbelk.

 

Party starts at 9AM, don't be late! Each cacher is responsible for calling the Livery and arranging for their own t00b or raft reservation. Bring your own c00ler and enough drinks and picnic f00d for your gr00p. "

 

Was never approved. I heard through the grapevine that it was considered commercial and would not be approved. I re-listed it without references to any specific t00b rental place and it was appr00ved. My question was how is this different from say a restaurant cache where you have to go to a specific restaurant in order to attend the event? The relisted cache caused great confusion as people didn't know where to go to rent t00bs, and the group was not therefore able to raft downriver together, rather the attendees were divided up based on where they rented and put in.

[+The Outlaw]

Hi Jeremy, Thanks for listening. Julie suggested I tell you about the experience I had with trying to get a series of caches approved. To understand this a little better, it may be helpful to look at this cache GCE62A.

 

This cache was the first in a series I was planning to put out. When completed, it was going to be a 4 part progressive cache series where you got the start point for #2 by finding the finish point of #1 and so on until you reached the final container. At each container you would get another part of the story which prepared you for the next cache. The web pages would contain "Teasers" to get you to want to go and do the series. a little piece of the story, but not the level of detail you would get at the cache containers. To make the story work, the final cache (JQ4) would need to be fairly close to the final location of JQ1. Not right on top of it, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 250-300 feet. I know that there is a guideline stating that caches can't be placed within .1 miles of each other, and even though the caches in question were both mine and were close by design, I suspected this would be my sticking point.

In advance of placing the remaining cache, I decided to email this information to Prime Approver. I figured if he flat would not allow the proximity, I could move them farther apart. His reply was that he would not approve them anyway because progressive caches are not allowed. I don't recall seeing this in the rules anywhere. It was pretty disappointing to have put this much effort to create a cache that would be fun to do and have it get rejected for a rule that as far as I can tell doesn't exist. My questions to you are, is there such a rule? and if so, is it documented anywhere?

 

Thanks again for your time,

Wayne.

[+WAAS-up]

  Jeremy said:

  WAAS-up said:

  Jeremy said:

... The 3rd and 4th just seem to be filler items.

OMG, I can't believe you said that! Either the disconnect is much larger than I feared or I'm reading that totally wrong. So the quality of the game it's facilitating tools are filler items?

You know I qualified my response a few posts up if you'd care to read before posting.

You type faster than I do (when I hit reply the post I was quoting it was last on the list) and it's taken me a while to build the logic diagram but I've got the answer to my question, so thanks.

[lowracer]

  Mopar said:

It doesn't really seem like PA is your problem either.

Who was the bad guy back then?

 

  Quote

I've had my run-ins with the seemingly capricious and arbitrary decisions of the approvers before, and each time I'm more baffled than the last.

-lowracer

Funny you bring that up. That issue is still there. It's just now that PA is in the hot seat, and his performance is now affecting others down here besides just me. When we get elected approvers subject to recall, there may be peace in Texas. Capricious and arbitrary is a good description for the performance of PA.

 

Also as an aside concerning that link you posted, note that if you call your event a "CACHE MACHINE," it is OK to have a geocaching event specifically for the purposes of hunting caches. Where is that in the guidelines?

 

You can pull up all the old posts you like, you can deny that there is a problem in Texas. Jeremy, you can even call us a mob (which only proves that you really do not understand Texans at all). It will not make the issue go away. You, Groundspeak, have very dissatisfied customers here. Deal with the issue instead of telling us we're not really dissatisfied, or we will go away. Actually some of us have gone away. My missing $30 membership fee may not hurt much but there are many others down here who are not renewing. And terracaching.com is swelling with the ranks of disgruntled Texans looking for more say in who does their approving.

 

The issue then and today is that we have no say in who is approving our caches, and we have no way to recall them if we feel (then as now) that their decisions are capricious and arbitrary. We want local and elected approvers, subject to recall vote. We want more than one approver for the whole state. I'm not calling for the return of 9key since I bet he wouldn't return even if you paid him, and I could care less about the selector at this point.

Edited December 15, 2004 by lowracer